Rays Deal Young, Rincon Replaced by Morlan, Close to Signing Percival

by R.J. Anderson on Nov 28, 2007 3:12 PM EST Comment 213 comments

[editor's note, by R.J. Anderson] I moved all the information from earlier today to after the jump; it was cluttering the front page and I didn't want a huge post about the speculation.

The deal is finalized, we're just waiting on details folks.

Juan Rincon was removed from the deal, replaced by minor league pitcher Eduardo Morlan. Info on Morlan can be found here, but he was a top prospect in the Twins system, our colleague John Sickels ranked him 4th in his recent book. Last season Morlan averaged 11 K/9 in A Fort Myers. In fact, he struck out 92 in 65 innings! Stats, to put it simply this man is a monster and should start in AA Montgomery next year.

Comments

Re: Report: Rays Close to Dealing Young

This has to mean that they are pretty confident Eli is going to behave and is ready to be the everyday RF, because they've already said publicly they are going to use Rocco at DH.

by Tyler on Nov 28, 2007 3:20 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

unless

they want to play Maddons boy Gomer there like they did earlier last year.

YUCK!!!

http://tampabaysportsfanatic.blogspot.com/ http://www.thestatpack.blogspot.com/

by tampabaysportsfanatic on Nov 28, 2007 3:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Oh God No!

by R.J. Anderson on Nov 28, 2007 3:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Oh God No!

In the words of Darth Vader "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! "

by Flabull on Nov 28, 2007 3:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Report: Rays Close to Dealing Young

Unless the Twins throw in Trevor Plouffe and a Tyler Robertson, I want NO part of this. Delmon's value couldn't be lower right now.

by Kevin Gengler on Nov 28, 2007 3:24 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Re: Report: Rays Close to Dealing Young

Although I feel we could be getting alot more, Delmon Young could def. be lower. He was 2nd play in Rookie of the Year voting,it's not like he had a godawful season. People just need to be patient, the power numbers will come.

General Manager Manifesto Matt Bishoff

by Matt Bishoff on Nov 28, 2007 3:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Sternberg on the Radio

Stu was just asked on the radio if a major deal was going down and he said not to his knowledge and that something may happen next week at the Winter Meetings, but nothing right now that he knows of

http://tampabaysportsfanatic.blogspot.com/ http://www.thestatpack.blogspot.com/

by tampabaysportsfanatic on Nov 28, 2007 3:30 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Friedman As Well

Friedman said that just like normal they have not heard of this and that they are looking to trade, but they are not sure what they are talking about.

http://tampabaysportsfanatic.blogspot.com/ http://www.thestatpack.blogspot.com/

by tampabaysportsfanatic on Nov 28, 2007 3:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Friedman was constantly taking phone calls

At the Rays' press conference, but I'm not sure how much of that is just normal GM business.

by Patrick L. Kennedy on Nov 28, 2007 4:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Friedman was constantly taking phone calls

He was put on the spot on the radio, I would not be surprised in the bit if he said that to not start more talk and get back to dealing with the Twins

http://tampabaysportsfanatic.blogspot.com/ http://www.thestatpack.blogspot.com/

by tampabaysportsfanatic on Nov 28, 2007 4:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

That is what is sounded like to me too

Joe

by joedobr on Nov 28, 2007 6:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I missed Pat's post

But that same story came out of the papers.

by R.J. Anderson on Nov 29, 2007 12:03 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Report: Rays Close to Dealing Young

All of this trade talk about dealing Delmon is making me sick.

Do not trade him.

You have a franchise offensive and defensive right fielder locked up for many years. Build around him.

I will puke if we deal him or Upton.

Poe

by bpoe13 on Nov 28, 2007 3:42 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Re: Report: Rays Close to Dealing Young

I agree. Ask for the moon and if they give it, fine. If not Delmon needs to stay a Ray.

by floridaroar on Nov 28, 2007 3:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Report: Rays Close to Dealing Young

Imagine if Dukes could keep it together and play right field? That is the only way this deal makes sense. While I'd love that to happen, Dukes has never shown that he can be trusted to stay out of trouble/the press/ect...

by stpetelawyer on Nov 28, 2007 3:44 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Delmon was league average last year

That's all we need to replace him with.

Gain:

Possible lockdown reliever
Good defensive shortstop with a decent bat
Possible stud starter

Lose:

Possible stud outfielder
Bench infielder
AAA outfielder

by R.J. Anderson on Nov 28, 2007 3:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Delmon was league average last year

Let's look at it a different way.

Gain:

Bullpen (Weakness)
Shortstop (Weakness)
Starter (Weakenss)

Lose:

Outfielder (Strength)
Bench (Neutral)
Outfielder (Strength)

We are filling three holes at the cost of our biggest strength, outfield depth. I'm a firm believer in good pitching beats good hitting and if Garza can hit his potential we'll be in great shape in the years to come.

www.bullsindex.com

by SeanDubbs on Nov 28, 2007 4:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

That's what I was going for actually

People are being pretty tempermental here, how many times did we all bitch about the pen or the lack of a shortstop or Edwin / Hammel?

How many times did Delmon throw away another at-bat by hacking on a bad pitch?

Let's see the final results before grabbing pitchforks, but this deal makes us a better team.

by R.J. Anderson on Nov 28, 2007 4:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: That's what I was going for actually

I'm bi-lingual. Not only can I translate blog, but I'm also fluent in Spanglish, Ebonics, Jibberish, and 2-Year old.

www.bullsindex.com

by SeanDubbs on Nov 28, 2007 4:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I take offense to you calling me a 2-year old

by R.J. Anderson on Nov 28, 2007 4:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: I take offense to you calling me a 2-year old

As well you should.

www.bullsindex.com

by SeanDubbs on Nov 28, 2007 4:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: That's what I was going for actually

It arguably makes us a better team NEXT year. In the long run we're getting hosed on this deal.

Why not KEEP Young. Spend a little cash and get Percival, Eckstein, and a veteran starting pitcher like Shawn Chacon or Jason Jennings?

Spend some cash for the fill-in type players and give Brignac and Price time to mature and make it to the bigs. Why deal away what is possibly the cornerstone of the team for what amounts to stop gap players?

by floridaroar on Nov 28, 2007 4:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Shawn Chacon?

The AL East isn't very kind to him.

by R.J. Anderson on Nov 29, 2007 12:05 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

You are right

The Litigious One brings a cogent point to the table here. It looks like we got a 3 way platoon situation with Rocco, Dukes and Gomes. Will someone be able to take charge of that situation or will it be a drag? That is the key to this trade, if not, the Rays will be looking at Young for a long, long time and asking "what if", even if Garza does well.

Joe

by joedobr on Nov 28, 2007 6:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

LOL

at the Mets.

I wouldn't give a bag of balls for Stokes

http://tampabaysportsfanatic.blogspot.com/ http://www.thestatpack.blogspot.com/

by tampabaysportsfanatic on Nov 28, 2007 3:47 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

I think you mean...

ROFLMAO.

A LOL just doesn't quite say it.

www.bullsindex.com

by SeanDubbs on Nov 28, 2007 3:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: I think you mean...

very true. Thanks for correcting ;)

http://tampabaysportsfanatic.blogspot.com/ http://www.thestatpack.blogspot.com/

by tampabaysportsfanatic on Nov 28, 2007 4:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Report: Rays Close to Dealing Young

Is it possible we are getting slightly more for this???

by nittsallgood on Nov 28, 2007 3:55 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Re: Report: Rays Close to Dealing Young

Because, it seems that Rincon should be aboout ready for free agency soon, Bartlett is at best a 1 year solution to when the cajun god of baseball come up, and Garza has all the looks of a #4-
Young could be Manny Ramirez with defense... plus Harris was nice for us this year, and I actually dig Pridie some too...

by nittsallgood on Nov 28, 2007 3:59 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Re: Report: Rays Close to Dealing Young

"Delmon was league average last year"

......and Kazmir was in AA when we got him from the Mets.

Dude, Delmon is 22 and is a career .290+ hitter. Have you seen how easy he hits the ball to right field?

His upside is much, much higher then Garza and we have a bunch of stud arms who should be ready soon.

by bpoe13 on Nov 28, 2007 4:03 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Right.

Because obviously Kazmir for Zambrano is this same situation.

Delmon was average last year and looks like an abortion at the plate most at-bats. Could he become one of the best in the game? Absolutely. Will he? We'll see, if he does we look stupid.

by R.J. Anderson on Nov 28, 2007 4:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Right.

With the NRO so image conscience perhaps they're trying to get rid of the problems of the past. They've been very progressive in bringing in 'their' guys, both on-field and off-field personnel included. Dukes is probably going to be gone by March as well.

Looks like we'll see CC, BJ, and Ruggs in the outfield next season? He did well in the AFL and had a few big hits for Team USA. His minor league numbers project a best-case Jason Bay type player which isn't all that bad (other than Ruggs isn't Canadian).

www.bullsindex.com

by SeanDubbs on Nov 28, 2007 4:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

other than Ruggs isn't Canadian

In the words of Bill Parcells on the Coors Light Commercial:

"Thats a good thing, not a bad thing." :)

http://tampabaysportsfanatic.blogspot.com/ http://www.thestatpack.blogspot.com/

by tampabaysportsfanatic on Nov 28, 2007 4:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: other than Ruggs isn't Canadian

"They are who we thought the were!"

www.bullsindex.com

by SeanDubbs on Nov 28, 2007 4:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

From the Times blog

Something could definitely be shaking. Rays executive vice president Andrew Friedman just left today's stadium rendering unveiling abruptly, with his BlackBerry attached to his ear after telling the Rays PR staff he wasn't available.

by R.J. Anderson on Nov 28, 2007 4:08 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Lancaster also reporting it's close

by R.J. Anderson on Nov 28, 2007 4:11 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Re: Report: Rays Close to Dealing Young

ok RJ, bad example but i must be watching something different then you when i see delmon at the plate. Guys dont hit as well as he did by luck. Sure he was over matched at times but lets not forget that he is only 22. Over time its not the pitchers who are going to figure him out, its delmon who is going to become more comfortable and turn hitting the ball to right field into blasts to left.

Delmon had 38 doubles last year. There is absolutely nothing average about that at 22 years old.

by bpoe13 on Nov 28, 2007 4:19 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

You're right

But B.J. was 22 and looked tons better at the plate (forget about the stats, just purely at the plate), look here:

http://baseball.bornbybits.com/php/PITCHfx_tool.html

Look at B.J., Pena, then look at Delmon.

by R.J. Anderson on Nov 28, 2007 4:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: You're right

BJ also had more time in the majors.

by floridaroar on Nov 28, 2007 4:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

30 extra games

45 of which came as a 19 year old, that's really a reason why B.J. knows when to not swing at a pitch far out of the zone?

by R.J. Anderson on Nov 28, 2007 4:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: 30 extra games

I don't know but 2 years ago people were saying we should trade Upton. Last season's performance changed all that.

I just can't see why the Rays would want to break up what is quite possibly the best OF in all of baseball by trading Young to acquire what amounts to little more than fill-in players.

We should be dealing the Gomes, Rocco, Harris, etc. to fill our needs while holding on to the young uber-talented core of the team.

by floridaroar on Nov 28, 2007 4:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Because Young may have been

Sheffielding us?

by R.J. Anderson on Nov 28, 2007 4:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Because Young may have been

Perhaps, but that's no reason to accept less than he's worth.

by floridaroar on Nov 28, 2007 4:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Report: Rays Close to Dealing Young

Just the thought of dealing Delmon Young is a joke.

Unless we are getting Tim Lincecum , Matt Cain, Or Francisco Liriano for Young then the trade is crap.

Brendan Harris Is better then Jason Bartlett.

Matt Garza is unproven and no better then anyone we have in AAA ( Niemann, Howell, Sonnanstine.)

Juan Rincon is a 1 year rental we would be better off signing Troy Percival as a closer and moving Reyes into the 8th.

Delmon Young has skills.

40 2b's translates into big time home run power in the future.

His arm is stronger then Ichiro's.

90 Rbi's is hard to replace and who will protect Carlos Pena if they trade Young?

Seems like they would be opening more holes then filling.

We control Delmon for years so we should hold onto him until we cannot afford him anymore and then trade him while his value is high for a package of proven Major League Pitching.

I hope this is all Minnesota Hot Air blowing up the Journalists butts.

Devil Rays World Series 2009

by Japhei on Nov 28, 2007 4:19 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Garza's just as unproven as Delmon

All he proved he could do was hack a lot and hit for a pretty average; RBIs and protection don't really mean much.

If Dukes gets 500 ABs next year he'll outhit Delmon.

by R.J. Anderson on Nov 28, 2007 4:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Garza's just as unproven as Delmon

Can Dukes outhrow Delmon?

Defense wins championships.

Just ask the former perrenial Bay Area losers the BUCS!

Pitching defense and solid consistent hitting.

That wins Championships.

We just need a Proven Free Agent Starter (Livan Hernandez) and a Reliever (Troy Percival).

Devil Rays World Series 2009

by Japhei on Nov 28, 2007 4:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Wait...what?

Since when does the throwing arm of a player make him a good fielder? B.J. has a great arm, sucks at shortstop.

If defense wins titles then the gain at 2B and SS from Aki and Bartlett would make us better than anything we've had before.

We're not going after Livan Hernandez, the proven tag adds too much money and it's not worth it in the end.

by R.J. Anderson on Nov 28, 2007 4:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Garza's just as unproven as Delmon

I don't know. If you think Livan Hernandez is the answer, I'm not sure I unnderstand the question.

The truth will set you free, but first it will piss you off.

by pocket8pin on Nov 28, 2007 10:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Garza's just as unproven as Delmon

this is a lot to process... I was checking the Twins fan sights and they are extremely happy... I have a pit in my stomach-
Dukes IMHO would be better than Young, no doubt, but holy sh-- that's a lot to ask now from Dukes-I pray he can be a good citizen, Don't we think the arms we have down on the farm are better than Garza?? This looks good for 2008, but is this good long term???
I guess we are about to find out of we have the OF depth we thought we did, because here we go! BTW if Ruggiano is an American Jason Bay, we should be a-ok...

by nittsallgood on Nov 28, 2007 4:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Wow

I really hope this isn't true. This trade does nothing for me, I can only hope the details change.

by Patrick L. Kennedy on Nov 28, 2007 4:34 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Re: Wow

I agree. You are talking about trading the franchise cornerstone and #1 overall pick for unproven potential pitching. I'd rather pin hopes on Wade Davis and Jake McGee.

Only way I say yes to this deal if org has grown tired of him thinking he won't ante up ever here.

by David Bloom on Nov 28, 2007 8:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Report: Rays Close to Dealing Young

In my opinion this isn't enough......you are trading a productive outfielder for the potential of a great arm.

The other pieces are irrelevant, this is Delmon for Garza.

Eric SanInocencio
www.mvn.com/mlb-rays

Eric SanInocencio www.mvn.com/mlb-rays

by EricSanSan on Nov 28, 2007 4:38 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Irrelevant?

You're joking right? Our pen was the worst in the league, we just added a pereniel steady arm. That's hardly irrelevant.

Pitching and defense win titles, no? We just improved both.

by R.J. Anderson on Nov 28, 2007 4:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Irrelevant?

Who are you saying has a "pereniel steady arm"?

Juan Stincon hasn't looked HORRIBLE last year and was only truly dominant in 2004. He's a one year rental.

by floridaroar on Nov 28, 2007 4:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Stincon? That's cute.

Same guy posted three straight years of 20+ VORPs.

by R.J. Anderson on Nov 28, 2007 4:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Report: Rays Close to Dealing Young

It would be great if Dukes could jump into that RF spot with Baldelli DH'ing and spot starting in the OF. It would be foolish to assume that Dukes can keep it together that long. He is not even a year removed from threatening to kill someone and it will be very difficult for him not to violate his probation.

Hopefully adding Longoria will replace Delmon's bat. Garza and Rincon really improve our pitching.

by stpetelawyer on Nov 28, 2007 4:38 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Percy

Awesome to add him!!

http://tampabaysportsfanatic.blogspot.com/ http://www.thestatpack.blogspot.com/

by tampabaysportsfanatic on Nov 28, 2007 4:48 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Rosenthal

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/7496716

by R.J. Anderson on Nov 28, 2007 4:51 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

300 Posts?

"This is GARZA!"

Position by position if the trade goes through how will 2008 compare to 2007?

SP - Better
C- Couldn't be any worse
1B - I don't see Pena duplicating last years numbers, but still having a good season.
2B - Aki should improve offensively and will be better than Harris.
3B - Longoria's time has arrived.
SS - Improvement
LF - CC should be CC
CF - BJ should be BJ
RF - Delmon had a .724 OPS last season, Manny at the same age was over .100 higher by comparison with similar ML experience. .724 from a corner outfield spot isn't spectacular, but he does have a great opposite field stroke that will lead to more pulled homeruns. I would say Moises Alou would be a more reasonable projection.

www.bullsindex.com

by SeanDubbs on Nov 28, 2007 4:53 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Re: 300 Posts?

Dukes was named in the top, that guarantees over a 100 posts

http://tampabaysportsfanatic.blogspot.com/ http://www.thestatpack.blogspot.com/

by tampabaysportsfanatic on Nov 28, 2007 5:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I hope we reach 300 posts..

That Garza line is gold, just like Bishoff saying about the Stokes deal "Could the U.S. dollar's value lower any further?"

by R.J. Anderson on Nov 28, 2007 5:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: I hope we reach 300 posts..

If/When we get him I fully expect that line to be the title of the post.

www.bullsindex.com

by SeanDubbs on Nov 28, 2007 8:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I'll make that happen for you

by R.J. Anderson on Nov 28, 2007 8:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Report: Rays Close to Dealing Young, Signing

Don't the Rays know not to make deals with the Twins or A's? We're going to get screwed!

by floridaroar on Nov 28, 2007 4:55 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Uh...

Who have the Twins screwed lately outside of old man Sabean?

by R.J. Anderson on Nov 28, 2007 4:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

PERCIVAL

wohoo!!!! I love this, just pray his arm doesn't fall off

by nittsallgood on Nov 28, 2007 4:58 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

By the Way, R.J.

Beyond Young, you also have to applaud Smith for getting Pridie, who immediately becomes the Twins' center fielder of the future. The 24 year-old came back from injuries this year to rake in Triple A. Just like that, the Twins have an outfield.

IM NOT THE ONLY ONE WHO LOVES THIS KID!!! haha

by nittsallgood on Nov 28, 2007 5:10 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

We'll see next year I guess

by R.J. Anderson on Nov 28, 2007 5:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Um...

My guess is that Smith was the guy that told Ryan to pick Pridie in the Rule 5, but Ryan finally woke up from a chloroform-induced sleep and sent him back.

So, 2 people like Pridie? You and Smith?

by Jacob Larsen on Nov 28, 2007 6:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

When Percy is signed

Does Wilson get the boot?

by R.J. Anderson on Nov 28, 2007 5:12 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Re:

So is there anything going on today?

by userlock on Nov 28, 2007 5:22 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Re: Report: Rays Close to

Twins fan here...I want to assure you all - Garza is the real deal. The way I see the deal, you have a surplus (young stud position players), and a deficiency (pitching), we have a surplus (young stud pitching), and a deficiency (hitting), now the rest of this deal confuses me, but the Garza for Young is a great deal. Win-Win for both teams. I'd love to see Garza as Liriano's right handed counterpart, but we've got loads of young solid pitching, and we need hitters. Great deal for both teams. I'll be rooting for you guys!!!

by TwinsFan0427 on Nov 28, 2007 5:42 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Thanks for the words

Delmon can be a superstar if his plate presence turns the corner, Pridie I don't like, but he's better than Tyner. Harris can go either way, but he's better overall at 2B than Punto.

I hope you guys can hold onto Santana, he's not right in any other uni than the Twins.

by R.J. Anderson on Nov 28, 2007 5:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Thanks for the words

No prob...as much as I hate to admit it though, I'm really warming to the idea of trading Santana. With the incoming Tampa players, and the pieces coming in the imminent Santana trade, I think overall we'll be much better, deeper, younger and CHEAPER in the immediate future. Now, with the money saved, they need to lock up Morneau, Cuddyer, etc.

by TwinsFan0427 on Nov 28, 2007 5:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

If you guys do deal Johan

Do us a favor and rob them. I can live with Minny v. Tampa ALCS matchups for the next decade or so.

by R.J. Anderson on Nov 28, 2007 5:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: If you guys do deal Johan

My thoughts exactly - if I were GM, you HAVE to play the Evil Empire and the Red Sox against each other. Especially the Yanks - they absolutely CANNOT afford for Santana to go to Boston - think of that rotation. That's why, as much as I'd hate to see my favorite pitcher of all time in NY, I think the Yanks could give us a better package if we press them enough.

by TwinsFan0427 on Nov 28, 2007 6:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Thanks for the words

You like Johan in a Twins uni cause you don't want to see him in a Pins(tripes) uni!

I actually agree with RJ here - 3 adds that fill current deficiencies, for 1 starting player and 2 bench guys. All here are too enamored of prospects / Youngsters - justifiably, it grows out of hope for the future - but not all prospects pan out. Garza has performed in the majors in a smallish sample, but 83 IP and a 3.69 ERA out of a starter would make him your #2 ahead of Shields if he keeps it up for a full season. Delmon's a very good player with long term potential, but neither come with a guarantee. And tactically the Rays came out way ahead on the rest of the deal - and took on a 2 million salary in arbitration! Will Rincon hold up, bounce, or even scotch the deal due to health. Stay tuned. At least people are talking about the Rays today!

by nyyfaninlaaland on Nov 28, 2007 8:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

True on the buzz point

by R.J. Anderson on Nov 28, 2007 9:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

trade

I would be on board if they replaced Rincon with Neshek.

Garza, Neshek, and Bartlett for Young, Harris, and Pridie seems much better.

by BossmanJunior333 on Nov 28, 2007 5:47 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Re: trade

But that wouldn't work for the Twins at all. Pridie would have to be replaced with like Davis or McGee for that to work.

by Tyler on Nov 28, 2007 5:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: trade

I agree. Neshek makes the deal work.

There seems to be a lot of love here for Rincon, a guy with arm problems; who hasn't been dominant since he got caught juicing.

by floridaroar on Nov 28, 2007 8:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Report: Rays Close to Dealing Young, Signing

If you look at the Twins diaries at their SB Nation site, they seem to think that they are the ones getting a raw deal.
At Viva El Birdos people seem to think that it's a great deal for both teams and are lauding the direction in which the Rays are headed.

I've been wanting to see Percival go to the Rays since I heard he was looking for a closer gig. Almost too good to be true.

Percival at the back of the bullpen with Wheeler, Rincon, and Reyes giving veteran experience is an incredible transformation from the beginning of the 2007 season.

by SOOOtaguchi on Nov 28, 2007 5:50 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Re: Report: Rays Close to Dealing Young, Signing

After reading both sides, it seems both sides think they are getting a raw deal, which is false, but also a good sign for both - shows how talented these two guys are (Young & Garza). Like I said above, the rest of the trade confuses me, but I really think the Garza for Young is a BIG win-win for both teams.

by TwinsFan0427 on Nov 28, 2007 5:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Fielding Bible had Bartlett higher than

Everett this year.

http://fieldingbible.com/

by R.J. Anderson on Nov 28, 2007 5:59 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Everett missed almost 2/3 of the year

UZR had Barlett slightly above average (+4), while THT had him in the middle of the pack.

by G_ on Nov 28, 2007 6:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re:

The other thing I'd like to add, Bartlett is a hell of a player. I don't know much about Harris , although it does look like his power is a bit better, but Bartlett is a great player, don't fret about getting him.

by TwinsFan0427 on Nov 28, 2007 6:05 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

trade

I wouldnt take McGee or Davis to get Neshek, but it probably would take a better player than Pridie, possibly Royster or Perez. Even if the Rays had to throw in another prospect, Id do almost whatever it takes to get Neshek over Rincon.

Rincon makes zero sense for the Rays longterm. In addition to being a free agent in 09, Rincon will likely demand a huge contract in the neighborhood of 5+ million dollars annually over 3-4 years.

Neshek makes perfect sense. He would be making league minimum and would under the rays control for the next 5 season, likely to become the closer in a year or two.

My point is, the Rays have said multiple times that they want to acquire players who would be able to contribute in the present and future. How does Rincon fit into that plan? With Reyes and Wheeler set to be free agents in 09, do we really need another potential free agent?

by BossmanJunior333 on Nov 28, 2007 6:18 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Re: trade

Neshek is a closer posing as a setup man making league minimum as you said. Which is exactly why is would take a stud to get him. He's basically untouchable with Nathan leaving after this year as a FA.

by Tyler on Nov 28, 2007 6:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: trade

Which is exactly why Neshek isn't in the deal. Trades don't go "give me what I want, I'll give you what I don't."

by nyyfaninlaaland on Nov 28, 2007 8:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Report: Rays Close to Dealing Young, Signing

I am not sure I like this proposed trade for the Rays for one reason. In my view, the Rays have a lot of high ceiling starting pitchers ready or near-ready for the majors but only one high ceiling outfield prospect, Jennings, and he is not close to the majors. I do not think Young had a good year in 2007, but for a 21 year old it was acceptable. He hit for average and had 39 doubles, suggesting the power will come. I still think he is a possible star. So to me the Rays have added strength where they already have it and subtracted it from where they are less deep.

For argument sake, let's say our 2009 rotation now is Kazmir, Shields, Price, Garza and McGee. How much better is that than Kazmir, Shields, Price, McGee and Davis (or Niemann)? Isn't it better to have the latter with Young in RF?

As for Bartlett, he improves SS, but his ceiling is probably adequate, little more. Rincon is a reliever which means we have no idea if he works out, and cannot depend on him to be consistently effective. I prefer to keep Harris for depth and seek a cheap SS/reliever alternative on the market than sacrificing both Young and Harris to acquire them with Garza.

by bobr on Nov 28, 2007 6:20 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

In the 2009 hypothetical

Garza is the best bet to be second best pitcher in that group (next to Kazmir).

by G_ on Nov 28, 2007 7:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Report: Rays Close to Dealing Young

My 1st thought was "no", then it was what Kurkchen just said and thats "man, Young must be a prick". It looks like Rincon's #'s have declined quite a bit since he tested positive, no surprise. Does anyone know how far he is from FA? One has to think the team will sign an OF before spring training. Or trade for one possibly. Is Brignac available all the sudden? Niemann? One more thing i take from this if it goes down is it looks like Maddon has quite a bit of pull witin the organization. BTW- Would anyone else shit their britches if we signed Andruw? How freakin awesome would that be? Forget price, forget Dukes - i would love that!

by trek81 on Nov 28, 2007 6:39 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Rincon and Wheeler

Both have one more year under team control - both are free agents after the 2008 season.

by R.J. Anderson on Nov 28, 2007 6:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

"man, Young must be a prick"

I think this has something to do with the wanting to move him.

http://tampabaysportsfanatic.blogspot.com/ http://www.thestatpack.blogspot.com/

by tampabaysportsfanatic on Nov 28, 2007 7:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

My turn

Maybe its just me, but it seems that considering all of the names here involved, that the Twins are getting the marquee player. Young is thought of as a potential franchise player, at least in my mind. I understand the Rays thought processes, but I think they gave up a lot to not get enough back in return.

Percival is a step forward in the right direction, and I would think he would be the closer for 08 with Reyes taking the 8th. Rincon adds an option to the pen. I have to give it more thought, but Bartlett seems like a placeholder at SS and if this was the best, most feasible option for the Rays at SS, I would have gone in a different direction. I think Bartlett is just another placeholder until Briggy is ready.

Garza is the centerpice of the trade. I would have preferred a front-line ace in return for Young, but the NRO knows more, I will summize. You just don't trade the big man and the best arm next to Ichiro and Vlad in RF for Garza. For me, it doesn't equal out, but I get what they were trying to do here.

Joe

by joedobr on Nov 28, 2007 6:47 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

E-Jax/Sonny

I assume one of the two will be assigned to the pen and Niemann may get a chance to be the #5 to start the season?

Joe

by joedobr on Nov 28, 2007 6:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

arm strength = overrated

An outfielder's arm strength makes up only 10-20% of his defensive value. Young was a poor defensive RF last year, one of the worst in the league.

by G_ on Nov 28, 2007 6:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: My turn

In case you haven't been paying attention lately, Joe, young OF's don't get traded for front line aces every day. The Twins aren't talking about moving Santana for Melky Cabrera and others. You can say Cabrera and Young aren't comparable, but look at their '07 #s:

Young 22YO RF Bats R
645 AB (bats 5 or 6) .288 BA, 13 HR, 93 RBI, 10 SB, 16 OF assts, .316 OBP, .408 SLG, .724 OPS

Cabrera 23YO CF Bats B
545 AB (bats 8th) .273 BA, 8HR, 73 RBI, 13 SB, 16 OF assts, .327 OBP, .394 SLG, .721 OPS
(Cabrera's #'s were a bit better in his 1st year '06 - .360 OBP, .280 BA - with 85 less AB's)

by nyyfaninlaaland on Nov 28, 2007 9:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I undestand your sentiment

I am going under the impression that Young is the best player in the trade. I believe that the Twins want to build their staff around Liriano and whoever they can get in the Santana trade (Billingsley/Buchholz/Lester/Hughes/Kennedy).

I am under the impression and opinion that Young is superior than Melky Cabrera. Part of it for me is that Young was the #1 overall pick in the amateur draft, and in my mind gives him more of an elite status. That could be wrong on my part. And in my "standard", Garza has to be a staff ace, from the posts, it sounds like he is. He will be expected to be at the VERY LEAST as good as Shields and Kazmir, and maybe sandwiched in between them.

Very cogent point, maybe some of it is my own impression.

Joe

by joedobr on Nov 28, 2007 10:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: I undestand your sentiment

Hey, look, I think Young is the better player too, but performance is what counts. The draft thing is an impossible comparison - Cabrera comes from the DR, so isn't included in the draft, was signed as a free agent like all other prospects there. My fundamental point is that Early career position players don't bring ace pitchers in return - though I'm sure you're talking ace potential.

by nyyfaninlaaland on Nov 28, 2007 10:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Classic conondrum

Very, very fair. In a trade I guess and this fits the bill, do you want the best player in a trade or do you want the trade that has the overall better depth/quality of players?

Time will decide this trade out, although I believe Garza has to be the big time contributor of this deal.

Joe

by joedobr on Nov 28, 2007 11:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Twins blog

Whats the address of the Twins top blog? How many years away is Bartlett from free agency?

by trek81 on Nov 28, 2007 6:50 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

TwinkieTown

And he's a year away from ARB1.

by R.J. Anderson on Nov 28, 2007 6:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Twins blog

aarongleeman.com
stickandballguy
twinkietown
sethstohs

all quality sites

by TwinsFanJim on Nov 28, 2007 7:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

bartlett

Bartlett will be a free agent after the 2011 season

by BossmanJunior333 on Nov 28, 2007 7:04 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Re: Report: Rays Close to Dealing Young, Signing

So is this going down for sure? or is there a chance it could fall through?

by Flabull on Nov 28, 2007 7:07 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Scott Miller-CBS Sports

Says on the site that the Rays are currently holding up the deal because of concerns on Rincon's elbow? I imagine this can't be a dealbreaker if the main parties are involved.

Anyone have Juan Rincon's injury history?

Joe

by joedobr on Nov 28, 2007 7:28 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

He's had some issues

However I doubt it'll end the deal.

by R.J. Anderson on Nov 28, 2007 7:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: He's had some issues

Could there be a PTNBL or money provision in place to soothe over any concerns over Rincon or could another player be inserted? This has gone too far and the cat is out of the bag for this trade not to happen.

I recall Guillermo Mota being involved in the Beckett/Lowell trade and Florida actually KICKED IN money if memory serves because Boston threatened to back out of that deal because of a very similar issue. Mota was then spun to Cleveland in the Marte-Shoppach/Crisp trade.

Joe

by joedobr on Nov 28, 2007 10:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Scott Miller-CBS Sports

Last year, Rincon had some work done to removed bone chips I believe in his elbow. he didnt pitch in spring training.

Even though Rincon has declined, he is still better than what you Rays have, having watched a few games on MLB Extra Innings last year.

by TwinsFanJim on Nov 28, 2007 7:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I didn't know about his bone chips

Any chance that's effected him?

by R.J. Anderson on Nov 28, 2007 7:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: I didn't know about his bone chips

correction..it was a bone spur

I think it effected him somewhat. But the decline of Juan Rinconc seemed to coinside with a suspension for violating the substance abuse policy a few years back

by TwinsFanJim on Nov 28, 2007 7:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Scott Miller-CBS Sports

I would imagine if Rincon is hurt than the deal would fall through. I think part of the deal is getting more help for the pen

http://tampabaysportsfanatic.blogspot.com/ http://www.thestatpack.blogspot.com/

by tampabaysportsfanatic on Nov 28, 2007 7:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Or the Twins would just add someone else

But I think the deal gets done.

by R.J. Anderson on Nov 28, 2007 7:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Or the Twins would just add someone else

Yea thats what I expect to happen

http://tampabaysportsfanatic.blogspot.com/ http://www.thestatpack.blogspot.com/

by tampabaysportsfanatic on Nov 28, 2007 7:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Or the Twins would just add someone else

Everyone is in too deep for it to fall through. It could but what are you going to tell Young if this didn't happen?

I see what the Twins are trying to do building a dynamic OF with some key pieces and making the most out of their situation. I see the Rays are playing the arms race. I just hope Garza is on the same level if not higher than Shields and Kazmir.

Joe

by joedobr on Nov 28, 2007 10:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Or the Twins would just add someone else

Perkins? Gurrier?

http://tampabaysportsfanatic.blogspot.com/ http://www.thestatpack.blogspot.com/

by tampabaysportsfanatic on Nov 28, 2007 7:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Report: Rays Close to Dealing Young, Signing

Maybe the Rays will take Boof Bonser instead of Rincon if Rincon is hurt.

by ForRays on Nov 28, 2007 7:36 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Re: Report: Rays Close to Dealing Young

Just thinking out loud, but if Bartlett plays well (.280-.340 25 SB, avg defense) Brignac could always be shifted to the outfield. I seem to recall concerns about his defense last winter which he supposedly has improved. Or even second if Aki struggles. If there is a god, please heal Rocco.

My second thought is how much this staff reminds me of the FL staff from 5-6 years ago as far as having so many young controlable precieved #1 & #2's in one organization. And we saw how that went. Beckett, Penny, Burnett, Willis, Pavano, = Price, Garza, Mcgee, Kaz, Shields/Niemann/Davis. Now if we just had a Pudge.

by trek81 on Nov 28, 2007 7:57 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

We do!

Pudgito!

by R.J. Anderson on Nov 28, 2007 8:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: We do!

All the flavor of real Pudge with half the bat! :)

by floridaroar on Nov 28, 2007 8:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

You've got that first part wrong

Pudgito doesn't have the juice of Pudge.

by R.J. Anderson on Nov 28, 2007 8:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: We do!

Outstanding response Mr. Roar.

by nyyfaninlaaland on Nov 28, 2007 9:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Report: Rays Close to Dealing Young, Signing

Holly Wally Balls!!!

This is it. Will it go.

I think it makes sense for us to do this. We give away our strength and get back the items we desperately need. I'd be happy to see Bartlett out there, although Rincon does look suspect.

If we can pull this off, that would mean some of our young pitchers in the minors would either be sent to the pen or used to trade with.

Garza is the real deal. Lets cross our fingers

Disgruntled Asian Fan but hopeful after trade is made.

by mik3655h on Nov 28, 2007 8:48 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

It figures...

The one user who was pissed off a week ago about this off-season loves the deal.

by R.J. Anderson on Nov 28, 2007 8:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

after 3 hours of digesting-

I can get with getting Garza for Young, that part doesn't bother me, what does is geting Rincon who is a free agant to be, and getting Bartlett, who I like, but I would prefer not roadblock Briggy when he is ready... Any chance Briggy moves to 2nd base and Iwa becomes the super utility guy we thought he might be when he was signed??? Id love to see them get Perkins instead of Rincon, and I would be content.

Who do you guys vote to be the new RF?
Gomes, Ruggiano, Baldelli, Dukes...

by nittsallgood on Nov 28, 2007 8:50 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

trade

Yeah you have to look at this way

5 years of Garza
1 year of Rincon
2 years of Bartlett

I know Bartlett isnt a free agent for another 4 years, but we wont need him that long. Brignac should be up in a year, two years max. Then it comes down to whether we should keep Bartlett ot Iwamura at second base. My vote goes for Iwamura. We'll likely trade Bartlett at that point.

by BossmanJunior333 on Nov 28, 2007 10:03 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Re: Rays Deal Young, Close to Signing Percival

If Dukes can keep in check, my vote goes for him. Otherwise id go with Ruggiano. Id be nice to get another lefty bat in the line up.

Baldelli has no business in the outfield full time in 08.

by BossmanJunior333 on Nov 28, 2007 10:04 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Re: Done deal - Rincon out

http://blogs.tampabay.com/rays/2007/11/rays-twins-clos.html

The Rays completed a six-player deal late Wednesday to send AL Rookie of the Year runner-up Delmon Young to the Minnesota Twin in exchange for RHP Matt Graza, SS Jason Bartlett and a minor-leaguer.

by gavind on Nov 28, 2007 10:05 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Its official

The Twins were obviously desperate because they quickly inserted a prospect and the Rays took it.

Joe

by joedobr on Nov 28, 2007 10:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Its official

who is the prospect?????

by nittsallgood on Nov 28, 2007 10:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Eduardo Morlan

Juan Rincon was remove from the deal, replaced by minor league pitcher Eduardo Morlan.

RELIEF pitching prospect. Brilliant!

by gavind on Nov 28, 2007 10:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Morlan

Kevin Goldstein (BP) just ranked him #4 in the Twins org.

Thrived in closer role at A (12.8K/9I)
Mid 90's that touches 98
Heavy tilt on his slider

I like him ALOT better than Rincon. Good job, Andrew!

by gavind on Nov 28, 2007 10:16 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

better trade!

Morlan=STUD very good job Andrew...

by nittsallgood on Nov 28, 2007 10:20 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Re: Morlan

Can someone recommend a good website to determine when players are eligible for free agency? Since this guy is 21, I can't imagine it is anytime soon...

by gavind on Nov 28, 2007 10:26 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

He has no service time

He's not eligible for free agency for at least 6+ years depending on how fast he gets here.

by R.J. Anderson on Nov 28, 2007 10:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

For Rays contracts

Here's DRB's file.

by R.J. Anderson on Nov 28, 2007 10:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: For Rays contracts

http://www.bizofbaseball.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=652&Itemid=75

Re your file RJ, came across this article yesterday thought you could use re salary minimums for players on 40 man in minors. Put it in a response elsewhere, but if you miss it there...

Think it'll help with the costs of the non-majors roster guys, since you're such a digit head. And I truly mean that as a compliment.

by nyyfaninlaaland on Nov 28, 2007 11:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Rays Deal Young, Rincon Replaced by Morlan, Cl

Wow, gutsy move.

by RATW on Nov 28, 2007 10:37 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Re: Percy

If we land Percy, it will make this trade even better. I love the idea of three vets anchoring the backend of the rotation, ALL with closing experience.

I have a feeling the Rays did not want Rincon from the start and just baited the Twins. Brilliant!

by gavind on Nov 28, 2007 10:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Morlan

Here's a post from mlbtraderumors...

Dammit. Many of you might not know Eduardo Morlan, but he's basically the next Joba Chamberlain. Many of us Twins fans envisioned him as a stud closer for us by 2010 at the latest. That is a HUGE swing in the Rays' direction IMO. WOW.

This sucks now. I really like Young, but man, that really hurts this deal for the Twins.

by gavind on Nov 28, 2007 10:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Friggin awsome

I love this trade and if we do sign percival then I fell we could really makes some noise this year. This team would have the potential to easily finish 3rd in the east, which in turn would get them over the hump for the stadium I think.

Finishing third in the East is like finishing 1st or second in most other divisions

by Elgrandeplatano on Nov 28, 2007 10:48 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Re: Rays Deal Young, Rincon Replaced by Morlan, Cl

Hey, I have been out of town for awhile but I've
got to say that I love this trade, especially when
we get Morlan too. I think we have to give the props to Andrew and co. and if we do sign Percy then
we have to say they are true to their word of really wanting to make the team a player!! The main factor in Delmon's exit is his attitude, if we really think about it He's already gone on record as wanting to get out of town at the 1st opportunity - not the attitude or team player for a team like ours. We get a SS, A #2 starter and an ace type of closer in 2 years. Go Rays!!!!

SC raysfan

by SC raysfan on Nov 28, 2007 11:05 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Works for me

I've said it before. I love Garza. This guy can flat out pitch and my comfort level for his (hopefully) 32 starts just went up a whole bunch. Huge upgrade! Bartlett will help, I don't know him well but his tools look like a nice upgrade at a critical position. Morlan...Wow!!!!

Good Luck Delmon, I wish you all the best.

by ttnorm on Nov 28, 2007 11:06 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Re: Works for me

I just hope Delmon doesn't do something like bash the organization.

by R.J. Anderson on Nov 29, 2007 12:08 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Rays Deal Young, Rincon Replaced by Morlan, Cl

Adios Delmon. It was a pleasure to watch you while we had you. Some of the most exciting defensive plays I've ever seen came as a result of your arm. Best of luck to you.

Wow! The Twins now have a nice pair of OF arms with Young and Cuddyer.

Overall, I'm really excited about this trade. We've solidified the rotation and added defense up the middle, where it counts most.

Hopefully Dukes, Baldelli, Gomes can step up and fill their potential.

Now if the Rays sign Percival, 2008 should be very interesting.

by floridaroar on Nov 28, 2007 11:22 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Re: Rays Deal Young, Rincon Replaced by Morlan, Cl

Interesting peripheral aspect of this deal is that Rays open a roster spot, and save some money. Delmon was in for 1.35 mil, Harris near min, as were Garza and Bartlett.

Another Rays salary dump? Just kidding.

But I think Glover with his $600k arb2 status is a non-tender goner now to help cover Percy's nut should that deal go down. No need for him, with Reyes, Wheeler, Percival, Salas, Balfour, and Dohmann in the righty pen mix, plus E-Jax, Hammell, & Niemann competing for #5 starter and long relief - guess I'm conceding Sonny the #4. Jax and Hammell both out of options I think.

Can Birkins or Ridgeway fill a lefty role, or just go all righties all the time again, or get another?

Roar points out the OF arms Twinks now have, but I wonder if they'll move Cuddyer back to their big hole at 3B, go with Young in RF, platoon Kubel and Monroe in LF, stick Coco or Melky from trade in CF. Leaves RJ's all time fave Jason Tyner out in the cold. Middle IF becomes a hole, but there are 2B's available, maybe Harris and Punto will fill until better options arise.

by nyyfaninlaaland on Nov 28, 2007 11:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Rays Deal Young, Rincon Replaced by Morlan, Cl

Tyner without a job? ..someone void this trade ASAP.

by RATW on Nov 28, 2007 11:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I say we give Tyner a job

Do you think one year 25 million is enough?

by R.J. Anderson on Nov 28, 2007 11:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Best Twins comment I've read yet..

Garza's lack of control > Delmon's lack of knowing what the ** a strike is.

Oh and something along the lines of Friedman working Bill Smith's ass.

by R.J. Anderson on Nov 28, 2007 11:42 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Re: Best Twins comment I've read yet..

It would be interesting to know the thought process behind the decision to move D. Young. What factor weighed most heavily? Was it the lack of plate discipline? Attitude? Trade value? Equal parts of each?

by RATW on Nov 29, 2007 12:05 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

why trade for a starting pitcher?

i like the trade, but i still feel that we should trade Rocco for a reliever, and to trade for a starting pitcher is nice, but i think we had enough in the starting pitching department.

what gonna happen in 2 years? With Wade, Mason, and most importantly Price, do we want a 7 man rotation?
I see Price being out future #1 pitcher. i dont know i want to see more relievers, and trading branden? why???
i hope BJ still wants to play infield cause i got a feeling we will need him there....

http://media.tbo.com/photos/sports/2007/oct/1003rayslogo.jpg

by Boricua on Nov 28, 2007 11:53 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Re: why trade for a starting pitcher?

Depth is never bad.
Brendan wasn't too good in the field.
Why? Bartlett isn't that bad, and our infield looks like Longoria - Bartlett - Iwamura - Pena, where could Upton possibly play that be an upgrade when you consider the centerfielder taking his spot?

by R.J. Anderson on Nov 28, 2007 11:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

My vision to start the season....

Morlan COMPLETELY swung the trade in our favor, instead of one year and fear of Rincon we get a STUD reliever, that we control for the forseeable future.

My lineup goes a little sometihng like this:

Iwamura-2b
Baldelli-DH
Crawford-LF
Upton-CF
Pena-1b
Longoria-3b
Ruggiano-RF
Navarro-C
Bartlett-SS

Bench- Gomes, Dukes (for now), Guzman, Zobrist

Rotation:

Kazmir
Shields
Garza
Sonnanstine
Hammel

Bullpen:
Howell
Jackson (you know if was my team he is a bullpen arm)
Salas
Balfour
Wheeler
Reyes
Percival

Gone: Dohmann (tho I like him a bunch, Id rather Balfour tho),Glover (ditto)

Niemann starts the year in AAA, and the minute Howell, Jacko, or Hammel fail for the last time, out the door they go...
unfortunately no options means they stay to start...whereas Niemann can start in AAA and get a good cruise on.

AAA rotation
Niemann
Talbot
Mason
Davis
Houser (once not suspended of course)

Price and McGee in AA to begin

by nittsallgood on Nov 28, 2007 11:58 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

That's another question

Is Percival being guaranteed the closer's gig? Do we really want Reyes getting even more reps as a set up man? After Percy do we pursue another trade for a proven reliever?

by R.J. Anderson on Nov 29, 2007 12:02 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: My vision to start the season....

Line-Up:

Upton
Aki
CC
Pena
Longoria
Baldelli
Ruggiano
Navarro
Bartlett

Bench:
Riggans, Gomes, Guzman, Zobrist

Rotation:

Kaz
Shields
Garza
Sonny
Neimann

Bullpen:
E-Jax
Salas
Wheeler
Reyes
Hammel
Howell
Percival

www.bullsindex.com

by SeanDubbs on Nov 29, 2007 12:39 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: My vision to start the season....

Needs more Dukes

by Kevin Gengler on Nov 29, 2007 12:43 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: My vision to start the season....

I'd rather have a backup catcher. You know, just in case. I don't think Navarro has it in him to catch all 162.

Gomes will be the 5th Outfielder and back-up DH. Guzman will play the corners with Zobrist up the middle.

Carrying six outfielders makes no sense whatsoever!

www.bullsindex.com

by SeanDubbs on Nov 29, 2007 12:48 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Rays Deal Young, Rincon Replaced by Morlan

If Percivel is signed i wonder if that's it for the Rays this winter? Can they go into ST with Dukes, Baldelli, Gomes and Rugg slated to man RF and DH? Should they try and land another OF? Maybe a defensive minded vet with some upside. Corey Patterson? Do they consider moveing Brignac to the OF? If the Dodgers sign another OF Ethier should be available.

by trek81 on Nov 29, 2007 12:00 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

Who knows

But the Rays mean business.

by R.J. Anderson on Nov 29, 2007 12:01 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Where does Morlan rank in our system

Goldstein and Sickels ranked him 4th in the Twins, I'd have to chalk it up like this:

Longoria
Price
McGee
Davis
Brignac
Morlan
Niemann

ect.

by R.J. Anderson on Nov 29, 2007 12:00 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

Re: Rays Deal Young, Rincon Replaced by Morlan, Cl

I'd have Niemann and DJ over him.

by Kevin Gengler on Nov 29, 2007 12:02 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

Rocco's upside is being overlooked

One thing that has not been mentioned is that RF will be a lot easier on Rocco's legs. He will have to sprint on less than half as many balls and I believe that his arm should be just fine in RF (not Delmon fine but roughly RF league average). If Dukes and Gomes are still here in April, there should be enough ABs for the 3 of them in a RF/DH platoon, and Ruggiano is available if one of 2 of them can't stay on the 25 man.

by ttnorm on Nov 29, 2007 12:14 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

Re: Rays Deal Young, Rincon Replaced by Morlan

Anyone wanna bet we couldnt land a sick RF If we packaged together Mcgee, Brignac and others? And bet that one of Sonny, Davis, Mason, Hellickson, Jackson, Niemann doesnt pan out as a #5 and give us a top 5 rotation in baseball by 2010? I think the Rays just wanted to rid themselves of Young and his additude and did so wonderfully.

by trek81 on Nov 29, 2007 12:16 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

Do we have the second best rotation

In the division now, behind the Sox? At least top three.

BOS: Beckett - Schill - Daisuke
TB:Kaz - Shields - Garza
NYY: Mussina - Hughes - Joba / Kennedy
TOR: Halladay - Burnett - McGowan

by R.J. Anderson on Nov 29, 2007 12:19 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Do we have the second best rotation

Possibly, at least until the Yankees land Santana.

by floridaroar on Nov 29, 2007 12:27 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

That may take two of those three

So Santana - Mussina - ???

Also I wouldn't count the Sox out of the Santana race, sadly.

by R.J. Anderson on Nov 29, 2007 12:28 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Do we have the second best rotation

Wang > the others listed for NY > Mussina

by Kevin Gengler on Nov 29, 2007 12:28 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Yikes

My bad, I forgot all about Wang.

by R.J. Anderson on Nov 29, 2007 12:28 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Yikes

That also means I need to pack it in for the night.

This thread may hit 300 comments tomorrow.

by R.J. Anderson on Nov 29, 2007 12:30 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Yikes

"This is GARZA!"

www.bullsindex.com

by SeanDubbs on Nov 29, 2007 12:40 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Wow, this is alot of post

since there are so many people, i think we should move this is a chatroom style conversation.
i hit refresh and theres 8 new post lol.
what do u think?

http://media.tbo.com/photos/sports/2007/oct/1003rayslogo.jpg

by Boricua on Nov 29, 2007 12:16 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

Fleecing Minnesota..

those idiots on the Twins sites think they are getting the 2nd coming with Young, boy are they in for a rude awakening,
Young was poor range defense in RF
needed all 162 games to hit 13 HR? I think almost anyone can get near 100 RBI playing everyday in the middle of a lineup, whether you deserve it or not. He had a sub .800 OPS and for RF thats below average...
Morlan totally made this trade a complete fleece job in our favor, like a take you behind the woodshed kind of teaching by Friedman and Co. Bravo, I say, Bravo!

by nittsallgood on Nov 29, 2007 12:30 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

Re: Fleecing Minnesota..

what site?

by trek81 on Nov 29, 2007 12:31 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I won't call it a fleecing

It's possible that Garza and Morlan's arms fall off while Delmon learns what a ##### strike is.

Anything can happen.

by R.J. Anderson on Nov 29, 2007 12:34 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: I won't call it a fleecing

That should be four pound signs.

by R.J. Anderson on Nov 29, 2007 12:34 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Fleecing Minnesota..

I was at MLB.com and the head line reads this....

"Twins pick up Young in six-player deal."

that sounds to me that twins got a better deal out of this......
is doesnt say...

RAYs pick up garza.......

oh well.... we needed the pitching...

http://media.tbo.com/photos/sports/2007/oct/1003rayslogo.jpg

by Boricua on Nov 29, 2007 12:36 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Fleecing Minnesota..

thats becaue DY has more name recognition, nothing more

by nittsallgood on Nov 29, 2007 12:38 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

best rotation in the AL east

Tampa, whenever Price is ready, this WILL be the best rotation....
4 players with an era in the 3's would be lovely

http://media.tbo.com/photos/sports/2007/oct/1003rayslogo.jpg

by Boricua on Nov 29, 2007 12:33 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

Imagination Land

How about our staff in 2010 if everyone keeps progressing as planned?

Kaz
Price
Sonny
Garza
Davis

Bullpen:
Neimann
Mason
Talbot
McGee*
Morlan*
Salas*

*Possible Closers.

www.bullsindex.com

by SeanDubbs on Nov 29, 2007 12:50 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Imagination Land

Shields?

by trek81 on Nov 29, 2007 12:58 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Imagination Land

My bad. I accidentally put Sonny there. We're going to have to start trading away a pitcher every so often to fill holes, so let's make it Sonny.

www.bullsindex.com

by SeanDubbs on Nov 29, 2007 1:02 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Imagination Land

As much as I hate to acknowledge Fall Out Boy's existence; summing up the AL East "This ain't a scene, it's a goddamn arms race."

by R.J. Anderson on Nov 29, 2007 7:10 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

twins sites

the regular Twins website, Twinkie town was dead tho, but of the 14 comments posted most thought we got the better end of it...

by nittsallgood on Nov 29, 2007 12:37 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

80 Wins

I understand it the absolute ceiling but if all the chips fall just right it could happen. Kaz and Shields repeat their '07's. Garza keeps his ERA around 4. Everyone stays healthy of course including Rocco. Fuck it! Longoria has a Braun like debut, Kaz wins the CY, Pena hits 50 jacks, Gomes returns, Yanks fail to get Santana. Why not the wild card. Im drunk... going to bed.

by trek81 on Nov 29, 2007 12:48 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

Re: 80 Wins

"Bold strategy Cotton let's see if it pays off."

www.bullsindex.com

by SeanDubbs on Nov 29, 2007 12:51 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: 80 Wins

Haha, Dodgeball. great movie.

I love this trade. It seems to me that this will be the 08' lineup:

Aki
B.J.
C. C.
Pena
Longoria
Ruggiano/Dukes
Baldelli
Navarro
Bartlett

Bench: Ruggiano, Guzman, Riggans, Zobrist (YUCK)

Rotation

Kaz
Shieldsy
Garza
Sonny
Jackson/ Niemann (Jackson starts at #5, Niemann ends up winning #5 in May/June)

Bullpen:

Salas
Dohmann
Hammel
Wheeler (Main 7th inning guy, set up man split with Reyes)
Reyes 8th inning main man, Main set-up man
Percy (Closer)

by Cory Alexander on Nov 29, 2007 5:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

What a bunch of crap!

I totally disagree with this trade. I'm sick and tired of the word "potenetial" and "prospects". I mean, I know that Matt Garza is a possible front line starter and Marlon could one day be a stud. However, with the heavily stocked minor league system we have, I believe that the Rays could and should have gotten an experienced starter and some quality relief for Young. Somebody would have offered more, better, or both if the Rays would have held out a little longer. I hope Garza and Co. prove me wrong. I guess only time will tell.

by iamthebiggesttloser on Nov 29, 2007 12:50 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

Re: What a bunch of crap!

well, with the Rays unfortunatley $ is a factor. And having a projected #1,#2 for next to nothing for 5 years is quite valuable for this organization.

by trek81 on Nov 29, 2007 1:03 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: What a bunch of crap!

Kind of like a potential superstar RF for the same price for one year less?

by Kevin Gengler on Nov 29, 2007 1:07 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: What a bunch of crap!

nah.. OF's are easier to find then young #1 starters. Look at the starters in the East, we need hitters who can take pitches and lengthen at- bats. Plus Young was a prick who didnt want to be here.

by trek81 on Nov 29, 2007 1:17 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: What a bunch of crap!

Pitching is more valuable than hitting any day of the week, no question. I'm not saying that the scales on this trade are tipping in our favor as I think this deal is actually pretty even.

But then again, I have no emotional attachment to any player anyways unless I buy his jersey.

www.bullsindex.com

by SeanDubbs on Nov 29, 2007 1:25 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: What a bunch of crap!

Delmon Young was the overall #1 pick in the 2003 draft. I know that he isn't a veteran, but he is the biggest name in this trade and could have garnered more than what the Rays got....at least in my opinion. I also know his attitude sucks, but if you played for the Rays what would do you expect? If I was a betting man, I would say Young will be a susperstar in this league. Unfortunately, it won't be for my team. Take nothing away from Garza, but he is more of a risk. The Rays could have packaged a deal for say a Dontrelle Willis for example. They need someone with a proven track record and veteran experience, not another kid who has all the potential in the world.

by iamthebiggesttloser on Nov 29, 2007 8:19 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: What a bunch of crap!

Dontrelle Willis? He's possibly the most overrated pitcher in MLB. The guy is overpriced and not all that good.

I wouldn't trade Garza for Willis straight up.

I too am sad to see Delmon go, but this is a smoking deal for the Rays. They get a projected ACE/#2 starter, a closer of the future, and a huge upgrade at shortstop all for Delmon and little more than spare parts.

by floridaroar on Nov 29, 2007 9:48 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Absolutely Right

Willis is garbage. Go look at his numbers, they have gotten progressively worse each year.

http://tampabaysportsfanatic.blogspot.com/ http://www.thestatpack.blogspot.com/

by tampabaysportsfanatic on Nov 29, 2007 10:24 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Dontrelle? Yeah that would've been crap

by R.J. Anderson on Nov 29, 2007 2:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

roster

Iwamura 2B
Crawford LF
Longoria 3B
Pena 1B
Upton CF
Baldelli DH
Dukes/Ruggiano RF
Navarro C
Bartlett SS
Kazmir
Shields
Garza
Sonnanstine
Niemann

looks pretty damn good to me....

by BossmanJunior333 on Nov 29, 2007 2:38 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

Man oh man

Only a couple things to add from this end:

This is definitely the ballsiest move the NDRO (have we retired that term yet btw?) have made, and the stakes will be awfully high. While Garza and Morlan could certainly turn out to both be strikeout machines and/or the next Avery and Wohlers to Kaz/Shields's Glavine and Smoltz, a stud like Delmon still seems like an awfully high price to pay, especially adding him into:
Check out (by way of DT) what the Twins could throw out there in '08:

>>
do a Cano/Hughes/Austin Jackson trade

do a Joe Nathan for Bill Hall + Manny Parra trade

Sign Cameron to a 2yr contract until Jackson is ready

lineup

C Mauer
1b Morneau
2b Cano
ss Casilla
3b Bill Hall
lf Cuddyer
cf Cameron
RF Young

Liriano
Hughes
Baker
Slowey
Parra

Thats pretty kickass.

http://dodgerthoughts.baseballtoaster.com/archives/870540.html#275
<<

Delmon, Mauer, and Morneau together in the same lineup, imho, gives the Twins an awfully strong middle of the lineup for quite a few years, maybe the Rays WILL be seeing them in the postseason sooner rather than later...as in,

3. The more I think about the timing of this deal, and the reports of the negotiations going down during the Al Lang press conf, the more it makes sense to do what they did. How better to show everybody that the team is this dedicated to improving, than by trading the former #1 pick, on the day the new ballpark is announced, to improve the team's 3 glaring weaknesses? I mean, think of the way Joe TampaBay will read this tomorrow: "Hmm, fancy new ballpark...ohh wow, and they traded that punk Delmon too, for what sounds like another stud pitcher, I'd better go buy my tickets now!"

Er, maybe not exactly like this, but you see my point. The trade shows that the on-field product is improving, at the same time as the ballpark plans show how the organization as a whole is moving forward. Very exciting time to be a fan of the Gamma Rays!

(now, if only they could sign that 42 year old DH in case Dukes and Baldelli continue being Dukes and Baldelli...)

by das411 on Nov 29, 2007 2:55 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

Re: Man oh man

I will be surprised if the Yankees give up Cano and Hughes to get Santana. Maybe one, but not both. But the Twins will certainly get some real value for him.

As for the Rays' side of the deal, aside from my concern that we dealt away from an area in which we are thin to acquire more quality in an area where we are already strong, I do like the trade.

To me, the key is Bartlett. Morlan is too much of an unknown to be factored in right now, as is Pridie. Had there just been a Morlan for Pridie trade, I would have thought it sensible for the Rays.

Either or both Young and Garza may fulfill expectations and become major stars, or may disappoint but still be effective, or less likely, could be busts. In any case, that part of the deal is a reasonable gamble.

But if Bartlett is even just a solid shortstop who continues to hit as he has, the Rays have improved, not just at that position but in their pitching as well. I like Harris, but in my view he is essentially an excellent reserve. If we have traded a bench player, no matter how good, for a legitimate regular shortstop, we come out ahead.

by bobr on Nov 29, 2007 7:11 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Man oh man

I think, and its a hunch, that Santana is going to Boston. Its my guess. Santana and Beckett at a top of a rotation, give me a break.

Joe

by joedobr on Nov 29, 2007 7:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Man oh man

Wow! An Avery and Wohlers reference without a single mention of Charlie Leibrandt. Disappointing.

www.lbacentral.com

by SeanDubbs on Nov 29, 2007 10:55 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

this trade sucks

286 hitter for a .265 hitter? Barlett has 26 errors last year. That's right I said 26.

Delmon has been called a future great hitter. Who has said the same of Garza? Is Garza good, yeah. The Twins will laugh at us the same way we laugh at the Mets for Kazmir.

Goodbye Delmon, but hello right field platoon!

Maybe Marlon can say "hello" to Chuck Tiffany, or Dale Thayer.

You can put all the spit and shine you want on this deal, it's not going to make this seem better. We are losing on this deal. Simple as said, and my stomach has turned a little more.

Let's Go Rays!

by thebaddancingraysfan on Nov 29, 2007 10:31 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

Re: this trade sucks

Errors are an overrated stat when looking at defense. It does not take into account the range the player shows.

Garza has been labeled a future great pitcher. He is projected to be a number 2 in the majors.

http://tampabaysportsfanatic.blogspot.com/ http://www.thestatpack.blogspot.com/

by tampabaysportsfanatic on Nov 29, 2007 10:41 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: this trade sucks

... guys were hitting .297 against Garza last year. If errors are over rated they why don't we put BJ back to Short, right?

We traded in a 27 year old complete for 28 year old question mark.

Hey they projected Jackson as a top notch starter, as well as Howell... Hammel was said to have a better upside then Shields...

Great so now the Rays have more promise then a presidential canidate's platform.

This trade makes sense if you are a Twins fan.

I am just really disgusted by this trade.

Let's Go Rays!

by thebaddancingraysfan on Nov 29, 2007 3:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

TFB

Has Bartlett amongst the top shortstops in the league. He's better than 26 errors; you'll see soon enough.

You're overrating Delmon and underrating Garza, but again you'll see soon enough.

by R.J. Anderson on Nov 29, 2007 3:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Let me ask you something

All other components of the trade thrown out, whcih player would you rather have from now going forward, Garza or Young?

by Patrick L. Kennedy on Nov 29, 2007 4:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Not asking me, but I'll chime in

In a vacuum, Young every single time. It's universally(or nearly at least) agreed, that Minnesota got the single best player in the trade. But IMO, the Rays got 2,3,4 and it's not particularly close.

I really think this improves us significantly in the short term and really over the next 3-4 years. Young is probably going to blossom into a super-star. I really think he will, but he's not nearly as close to super-stardom as I thought he was a year ago. He's going to be good, and really good very soon, but won't be a true super-star for several years.

It's also my opinion that Eli Dukes will be a better hitter than Delmon over the next 3-4 years before Delmon reaches his ceiling, and Dukes ceiling isn't that much lower. And I expect Eli to be our RFer.

So in this trade, we upgrade significantly SP and SS. And it's my prediction that Eli will outplay Delmon, and probably by a pretty decent margin next year, so we'll actually get better there too.

Now, not many people believe in Eli, but this is my prediction and I'll stand by it until it's proven wrong. The FO has plans for him, he hasn't been released for a reason.

by Tyler on Nov 29, 2007 4:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Not asking me, but I'll chime in

"He's going to be good, and really good very soon, but won't be a true super-star for several years."

----

Agreed. So while we could have waited for Young to figure things out and become a superstar just as his arbitration years are about to expire, we instead have another cheap valuable young arm set to blossom in the rotation right now.

Dukes could be an extremely good ballplayer if he weren't crazy. Get on the meds and hope for the best.

by RATW on Nov 29, 2007 8:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Not asking me, but I'll chime in

I agree with the Dukes statement. He is going to stay on this team atleast for this season, as is Baldelli. If you think we got screwed on the Delmon deal then you better hope we don't trade either of them for a few years because we will get raped by trading either of them now.

by Elgrandeplatano on Nov 30, 2007 6:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs