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Winter Meetings: Day 1 and more...

Rays_tat_tiny by Jacob Larsen on

Scratch Carlos Quentin off the "Wish List"

According to MLB Radio, the D'Backs will soon announce that they have traded OF Carlos Quentin to the White Sox for 20-year-old 1B Chris Carter.

According to Baseball America's Transaction List....

Doug Waechter is now a Florida Marlin, the Rays signed former Yankee Farmhand SS Andy Cannizaro and Oakland signed RHP Chris Farley. Wait, yup Chris Farley.

I will edit this post, if and when bigger news breaks.

Looks like Dukes might be traded at 5 PM, per Topkin:

There is only circumstantial evidence, including word that Nationals GM Jim Bowden was overheard on his cell phone yesterday at the airport talking to someone named "Elijah.'' And both teams have scheduled announcements at 5 p.m. Plus, the deal would explain why Dukes, the troubled outfielder, hasn't played since his latest eruption after being ejected from a Dominican League game on Thursday night.

Update [2007-12-3 14:52:23 by Patrick L. Kennedy]: Elijah Dukes may not be the only one headed out of the organization at MLB's Winter Meetings. Jim Street reports for the Seattle Mariners' website that the M's have emerged as a candidate to acquire Rays starter Edwin Jackson. The article reports that Jackson is being shopped for a young catching prospect (Clement?) or a "more established outfielder/first baseman". Mariners GM Bill Bavasi was with Los Angeles when the Dodgers took Jackson in the 2001 amateur draft, so his familiarity with he who has no control may beget a trade. As with everything else this week, stay tuned.....

Update [2007-12-3 15:31:38 by R.J. Anderson]: The Nats HAVE acquired Dukes our best guess is a minor leaguer.

Josh Wilson was claimed by the Pirates off waivers; we have an open 40 man spot, but it probably isn't for Dukes' deal, otherwise a 1-for-1 would leave the roster even.

Pretty sure that PTBNL really means "Player To Be Named Later Tonight."

The player is Glenn Gibson!

Per MLBTR

Update [2007-12-3 19:4:55 by R.J. Anderson]:Geoff Baker acknowledges that Broussard for Edwin straight up doesn't make sense. The Ms might have to toss catcher Rob Johnson into the deal.

Update R.J.: Via MLBTR from Crasnick :

The Phillies and Rays both spoke with Damon Lapa, the agent for free-agent outfielder Geoff Jenkins. It's not a strong year for left-handed hitting corner men -- with Trot Nixon, Shawn Green, Cliff Floyd, Brad Wilkerson and Luis Gonzalez as the other main options -- so Jenkins is getting considerable play. "We expect multiple multiyear offers," Lapa said. San Diego and Texas are among the other clubs keeping tabs on Jenkins.

Just made my post about the deal on BTB for those interested.

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Re: Winter Meetings: Day 1 and more...
This proves nothing. There are many people named Elijah. Maybe Bowden was talking to the Elijah referenced in Wikipedia:

Elijah's legacy continues on in many traditions and beliefs. He is a major part of the Jewish brit milah and Passover seder ceremonies, as well as traditions involving Lillith and the angel Sandalphon. In Christianity, he is expected to arrive either before the Second Coming of Jesus, or thought to have already arrived at the Mount of Transfiguration before the Crucifixion. In Eastern Europe, he is known as "Elijah the Thunderer" and is blamed in folklore for poor weather.

by floridaroar on Dec 3, 2007 2:49 PM EST reply actions  

That in itself proves nothing
But the press conference announcement in addition to Dukes' conspicuous lack of playing time would seem to indicate that something is in the works.

by Patrick L. Kennedy on Dec 3, 2007 3:15 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Winter Meetings: Day 1 and more...
So the Nationals will have Dimitri Young, Elijah Dukes, and Lastings Milledge? Geez.

by floridaroar on Dec 3, 2007 2:51 PM EST reply actions  

Re: Winter Meetings: Day 1 and more...
Any speculation regarding the player(s) the Rays might be receiving in return for Dukes? I know nothing official has been anounced at this point...just looking for your/other's ideas.

by nckdmss on Dec 3, 2007 2:51 PM EST reply actions  

Re: Winter Meetings: Day 1 and more...
Not sure, seeing as the Nats aren't always the easiest people to predict.

Milledge for Church and Schneider....

Asking for Rickie Weeks for Jon Rauch.

by Jacob Larsen on Dec 3, 2007 2:56 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Winter Meetings: Day 1 and more...
Actually, got it wrong...

Ask for Weeks for Cordero.

by Jacob Larsen on Dec 3, 2007 3:06 PM EST up reply actions  

That would be nice
But I'd say that he counts as "signficant", which is exactly what Bowden said he wasn't giving up in return for Dukes.

by Patrick L. Kennedy on Dec 3, 2007 3:05 PM EST up reply actions  

Rob Johnson
Same guy the M's wanted to deal us for Al Reyes.

by R.J. Anderson on Dec 3, 2007 2:56 PM EST reply actions  

My guess
Jackson for Broussard(Lefty, plays 1B/3B/OF)

by Jacob Larsen on Dec 3, 2007 2:58 PM EST reply actions  

That's not a bad guess
Equal value, and Broussard fits the much talked-about "left-handed bat" that the Rays have been looking for. The problem is that you have to platoon him; because he is awful against LHP. He was also a bit sub par overall last year, but for Jackson he would be fine.

by Patrick L. Kennedy on Dec 3, 2007 3:12 PM EST up reply actions  

Platoon
isn't a bad thing all.  In fact, it's perfect.  Gomes kills lefties.  It's an ideal DH/RF combination.  Especially if Rocco stays healthy.

by Tyler on Dec 3, 2007 3:24 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: That would turn out really well.
From MLBTR:

"The Rays' Edwin Jackson is available, and the Rays are seeking a veteran first baseman or a young catcher.  The Mariners have both, and Ben Broussard seems like a starting point."

http://tampabaysportsfanatic.blogspot.com http://www.thestatpack.blogspot.com/

by tampabaysportsfanatic on Dec 3, 2007 4:32 PM EST up reply actions  

What about throwing JP in
and getting clement as well, or Ibanez? The M's like JP a lot do they not?
http://tampabaysportsfanatic.blogspot.com http://www.thestatpack.blogspot.com/

by tampabaysportsfanatic on Dec 3, 2007 3:03 PM EST reply actions  

Re: What about throwing JP in
Ah, thanks for the clarification. I do think he could do well in that division though, he reminds me of Jamie Moyer, but younger and Moyer had great success for them. He also throws a little harder than him
http://tampabaysportsfanatic.blogspot.com http://www.thestatpack.blogspot.com/

by tampabaysportsfanatic on Dec 3, 2007 3:07 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah
USS Mariner is fond of him; not sure about Seattle's front office.

by Patrick L. Kennedy on Dec 3, 2007 3:09 PM EST up reply actions  

Let's inject some reality in here
Why would the Mariners possibly give up Raul Ibanez and Broussard for J.P. Howell and Edwin Jackson? Further, why would they give up the No. 5 overall pick in the draft two years ago, and one of the top catching prospects in baseball, for either of those? The Rays will need to offer more. I speculated Clement in my post, but only as part of a larger deal, not with Edwin Jackson as an anchor.

by Patrick L. Kennedy on Dec 3, 2007 3:09 PM EST up reply actions  

if both teams have a press conference for 5pm
then doesn't that mean "done"???
Gibson would be a nice pickup... As I said before, I also like Alabadejo and Ayala from the Nats bullpen.

Also, Rob Johnson does nothing for me as a prospect for Edwin...  sometihng with the name makes me think of over rated qb's who hold on to the ball too long...

Lastly, respect to RJ for pulling Cannazaro out, I respect the massive wrist injuries sustained typing up such crappy players on the minor leage SS list.  Cannazaro was the best of the bunch and you nailed that...

by nittsallgood on Dec 3, 2007 3:10 PM EST reply actions  

Yeah, I'm not liking the Rob Johnson possibility
Maybe Johnson and Broussard if we can squeeze Bavasi that much, but not Johnson alone.

by Patrick L. Kennedy on Dec 3, 2007 3:13 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Patrick, let me remind you of Bavasi
Yea that's why I thought if they loved EJax and JP we may be able to steal
http://tampabaysportsfanatic.blogspot.com http://www.thestatpack.blogspot.com/

by tampabaysportsfanatic on Dec 3, 2007 3:22 PM EST up reply actions  

You can't always take for granted
That he's going to be that dumb. Jim Bowden and Chuck LaMar have come on the better end of deals before, anything can happen. You have to at least begin with the assumption that the GM you're dealing with isn't brain-dead.

by Patrick L. Kennedy on Dec 3, 2007 3:25 PM EST up reply actions  

Honestly
I really don't care who it's for. Getting that mess off of our hands is a huge win in itself. Best of luck to Elijah; I think he'll fit in quite well in Marion Berry-land.

by Patrick L. Kennedy on Dec 3, 2007 3:27 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Eli's a National
Would we want Pena or Kearns in return for RF?

by nittsallgood on Dec 3, 2007 3:35 PM EST up reply actions  

No
That's asking for far too much.

by Patrick L. Kennedy on Dec 3, 2007 3:36 PM EST up reply actions  

HAHAHAHA!!
I beat your update by 9 seconds RJ!!  Seriously, get on the ball!  

by Tyler on Dec 3, 2007 3:25 PM EST reply actions  

Hey
We can't keep up on everything. Remember Tyler, we have lower standards than other Rays blogs. Not every one can provide up to the second updates.

by Patrick L. Kennedy on Dec 3, 2007 3:28 PM EST up reply actions  

Sorry I was polishing up my internet rumor
My guess: Dukes for a minor leaguer which will be fine.

by R.J. Anderson on Dec 3, 2007 3:35 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Winter Meetings: Day 1 and more...
wow, they really don't want Dukes over there on the Nats blog. i'm actually kind of sad to see him go. he was legit 5-tool, and could seriously be a stud. I am now very worried about our RF situation...

by davidsmarch on Dec 3, 2007 3:41 PM EST reply actions  

Welcome, davidsmarch
I think that everyone is sad to see Dukes talent go, but the bottom line is that he wasn't getting all he could out of it. He was holding himself back from stardom with perpetually dumb moves, and there was absolutely every indication that these dumb moves would continue unabated for the foreseeable future. I wanted to see Dukes succeed as well, being a local product, but he just wasn't getting it and he needed to go.

by Patrick L. Kennedy on Dec 3, 2007 3:44 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Winter Meetings: Day 1 and more...
I really hope this helps Elijah get his life back together. I think a change of scenery will be good for him.
http://tampabaysportsfanatic.blogspot.com http://www.thestatpack.blogspot.com/

by tampabaysportsfanatic on Dec 3, 2007 3:43 PM EST reply actions  

I hope he gets himself together too
There is nothing worse than watching squandered talent, and Dukes was looking more and more like yet another example of that. He needed to leave this organization. I too hope that he will turn things around with Washington, but I won't hold my breath.

by Patrick L. Kennedy on Dec 3, 2007 3:46 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: I hope he gets himself together too
Did you ever get a chance to talk with him? He may be one of the nicest people I have met, seriously. The guy was awesome every time I talked to him and he took time to sign for kids and talk the them every time they were around.
http://tampabaysportsfanatic.blogspot.com http://www.thestatpack.blogspot.com/

by tampabaysportsfanatic on Dec 3, 2007 3:47 PM EST up reply actions  

I've met Elijah Dukes once
It was in Spring of '06 before his AAA season. I don't remember anything particularly memorable about him, but he didn't strike me as an asshole and I'm sure what you say about him is correct. But what you are talking about doesn't matter one bit. Whether he is a nice person or not is irrelevant, I certainly don't think he's a horrible person or anything.

But he is a very immature person who has made extremely poor choices and who will continue to make poor choices until something clicks. And that clearly wasn't happening here, and the longer we kept him here, the more emboldened he was was to screw up. By continuing to give him chance after chance, all we did to him was give our tacit acceptance of his behavior. Nothing was going to change the way things were going. Good riddance.

by Patrick L. Kennedy on Dec 3, 2007 3:54 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: I've met Elijah Dukes once
I wasn't trying to say that it was relevant, just commenting that people make him out to be the devil and really is not a bad guy, just very immature and in need of a role model to keep his head on straight
http://tampabaysportsfanatic.blogspot.com http://www.thestatpack.blogspot.com/

by tampabaysportsfanatic on Dec 3, 2007 3:57 PM EST up reply actions  

He is most definitely not the devil
And I wish him the best of luck at getting his life back on track.

by Patrick L. Kennedy on Dec 3, 2007 3:59 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Winter Meetings: Day 1 and more...
UPDATE, 12-3-07 at 2:34pm: The Post's Barry Svrluga has more on this trade.  The Nats basically get Dukes for nothing - just a player to be named later.  Jim Bowden is hoping Dmitri Young can keep Dukes in check, and he's not worried about his outfield surplus.

what? i hope this is wrong. no Dukes didn't have a high value right at this moment, but would it really have been that hard to hold onto him and let his value increase? who knows if all he needed was time to mature as a man. this is a player that had all the makings of being better then Delmon Young, minus the rocket arm, was really all we could be was a PTBNL? i am now upset...

by davidsmarch on Dec 3, 2007 3:44 PM EST reply actions  

Re: Winter Meetings: Day 1 and more...
Ruggiano was a PTBNL.....
http://tampabaysportsfanatic.blogspot.com http://www.thestatpack.blogspot.com/

by tampabaysportsfanatic on Dec 3, 2007 3:46 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Winter Meetings: Day 1 and more...
a good point, but also an exception. there are many instances of P'sTBNL going on to suceed, but many more of them doing absolutely nothing. I am not uspet we traded Dukes, the need to move him was apparent, even to him. I just feel like we should have got more in return for a player with star potential.

by davidsmarch on Dec 3, 2007 3:51 PM EST up reply actions  

You feel that way
Because you are looking at his talent at the expense of all the other factors. There is more to it than that, and those other factors drove down his value considerably. It was entirely a self-destruction.

by Patrick L. Kennedy on Dec 3, 2007 3:56 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Winter Meetings: Day 1 and more...
Yup

The thing about Winter Meetings and minor league prospects is that, if a prospect is traded for someone on the 40-Man roster...it may take awhile for the team to call it's prospect up to tell them that they're traded.

Player to be named later is an easier way of saying "The Nats are trying to get a hold of so-and-so, so we can't disclose his name just yet because of the CBA"

by Jacob Larsen on Dec 3, 2007 3:51 PM EST up reply actions  

What did you expect?
Dukes is a malcontent. He has screwed up at every opportunity this organization has given him, and there is absolutely no sign that it was ever going to stop as long as the DRO continued to give implicit tolerance towards his behavior. He will keep running into new incidents unless something drastic changes, and that needs to start with him getting out of town. He simply isn't worth that much, and it isn't worth our time and patience to keep him here.

Besides, how do you know that the PTBNL will be bad?

by Patrick L. Kennedy on Dec 3, 2007 3:49 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: What did you expect?
Here is From Topkin:

"The Rays will get back a minor-leaguer but until he is notified of the trade it may have to be listed as a player to be named later."

So you guys were right that they just have not told him he was traded yet so they could not name him.

http://tampabaysportsfanatic.blogspot.com http://www.thestatpack.blogspot.com/

by tampabaysportsfanatic on Dec 3, 2007 3:55 PM EST up reply actions  

Good Ol'
Pee Wee's playhouse...

not...

Let's Go Rays!

by thebaddancingraysfan on Dec 3, 2007 4:04 PM EST up reply actions  

At least
Jake doesn't take off his pants in public. Anymore.

by R.J. Anderson on Dec 3, 2007 4:06 PM EST up reply actions  

And...
that's why I can't go to Sea World anymore...

by Jacob Larsen on Dec 3, 2007 4:11 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Winter Meetings: Day 1 and more...
I found it interesting that Dmitri Young was at the supposed meeting between Bowden and Elijah Dukes. It is a funny twist of irony, just because Dmitri's bro got traded from the same organization just a week ago.

The Nats now have four bonafide outfielders. If Nick Johnson comes back, they would have five (Dmitri would have to go back to the OF). I wonder if this could be a precursor to another move by Bowden, unless he plans on sending Elijah back to Triple-A. We'll see.

Eric SanInocencio
www.mvn.com/mlb-rays

Eric SanInocencio www.mvn.com/mlb-rays

by EricSanSan on Dec 3, 2007 3:49 PM EST reply actions  

Re: Winter Meetings: Day 1 and more...
I wonder if Lastings, Elijah and Dmitri will come up to the plate with the "Bad Boys" theme blaring...

by Jacob Larsen on Dec 3, 2007 3:59 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Winter Meetings: Day 1 and more...
bonified thug maybe.  but certainly not a bonified ml outfielder

by trek631 on Dec 3, 2007 4:17 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Winter Meetings: Day 1 and more...
Thank you washington nationals

by mik3655h on Dec 3, 2007 4:13 PM EST reply actions  

Re: Winter Meetings: Day 1 and more...
i knew all the talk about dukes being our starting RF was wack.  so now there's no question  they'll be bringing in someone else to compete for the job.  Im not totally against moving Brignac to the OF and letting him play there for Montgomery next season.  That still doesnt help us for '08 though.  A name i keep coming back to is Andre Ethier. He should lose his job if the dodgers sign Rowand or Jones.  Swisher's available i hear but that would take the farm.  

by trek631 on Dec 3, 2007 4:14 PM EST reply actions  

Do we match up well with the Dodgers?
for Ethier?  We have the arms, but they have arms too...

by nittsallgood on Dec 3, 2007 4:21 PM EST reply actions  

Re: If the season started right now?
no, who is on first?
General Manager Manifesto Matt Bishoff

by Matt Bishoff on Dec 3, 2007 4:52 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: If the season started right now?
Well, that's why baseball isn't being played 365 days a year.

I believe, by Winter Meetings' end, that the RF situation will be settled.

by Jacob Larsen on Dec 3, 2007 4:55 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Winter Meetings: Day 1 and more...
How things change. Just a few weeks ago the concern was that we had a glut of outfielders. The count was 9 ready for the majors: Crawford, Upton, Young, Dukes, Baldelli, Snelling, Pridie, Ruggiano, Gomes. We are now down to 5 and with no clear right fielder. That will change before the spring, maybe before morning.

by bobr on Dec 3, 2007 5:38 PM EST reply actions  

Re: Winter Meetings: Day 1 and more...
I just looked at the Mariner's blog and they would be willing to give up Clement for either E Jax or JP
Howell. If we sent them Sonny they would give us Clement and a Lefty Reliever. I can only hope that The M's GM is having these same type of thoughts but that might be much to ask for even him.
SC raysfan

by SC raysfan on Dec 3, 2007 11:27 PM EST reply actions  

Re: Winter Meetings: Day 1 and more...
Which OF would you DRaysBayers rather have in 08:

RF: Ruggiano vs Dukes
CF: Upton vs Lastings
LF: Crawford vs Wily Mo

? That National outfield is starting to look a little scary for some of us NL East fans, just like the Marlins have an incredible young left side of the IF and the Phils have the right side, put the Nats' OF out there for 600 ABs each and you just might get some serious production...

by das411 on Dec 4, 2007 1:08 AM EST reply actions  

Re: Winter Meetings: Day 1 and more...
Rays and its not even close in my mind. Milledge is a great talent, but he has not developed the way people thought and I have to think there is a reason the Mets were willing to deal him for that package. Crawford is better than Pena. I will give Dukes the nod right now, but the other two Rays OF are much better than the Nats 2.
http://tampabaysportsfanatic.blogspot.com http://www.thestatpack.blogspot.com/

by tampabaysportsfanatic on Dec 4, 2007 9:20 AM EST up reply actions  

Re: Winter Meetings: Day 1 and more...
I would not give up Sonnanstine just to add a lefty reliever to the package. I would not even deal him alone for Clement and a lefty reliever. He is one pitcher I think the Rays should give a full chance to see what he can do. I would gladly deal Jackson for Clement. I think the Rays may wait on Broussard to see if he is non-tendered.

In terms of potential fire-power, the Nats' outfield looks promising. In terms of likelihood of fulfilling that potential, I think it is less than 50-50. And Pena is considered a brutal defender. What about Austin Kearns? Right now, I still prefer the Rays' alignment, and I think it will be complemented before the season with another lefty bat.

by bobr on Dec 4, 2007 6:45 AM EST reply actions  

Re: Winter Meetings: Day 1 and more...
The funny thing about the Nats Vs. Rays OF thing is, it'd be hard for us to debate on which OF would rack up more strikeouts.

by Jacob Larsen on Dec 4, 2007 11:26 AM EST up reply actions  

Re: Winter Meetings: Day 1 and more...
I would offer the M's the following trade: E Jax + JP Howell for J. Clement and E. O'Flaherty LHRP.
That would be a trade to help both clubs but probally makes too much sense to be pulled off.
SC raysfan

by SC raysfan on Dec 4, 2007 8:49 AM EST reply actions  

You must be joking
The Mariners are going to trade their catcher of the future, who hit .275/.370/.497 last year in Tacoma, in addition to a decent middle reliever, for J.P. Howell and Edwin Jackson? Exactly why would they be doing that?

by Patrick L. Kennedy on Dec 4, 2007 11:33 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Winter Meetings: Day 1 and more...
Because they liked Horacio Ramirez better than Rafael Soriano?

by bobr on Dec 5, 2007 6:28 AM EST reply actions  

Again
A single action is not a prognosticator of future events. All GMs have made stupid decisions in the past, some more stupid than others. You can't assume that you can keeping picking off of the same tree all the time simply because you did so once.

by Patrick L. Kennedy on Dec 5, 2007 9:01 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Winter Meetings: Day 1 and more...
True, but the point is that different GMs evaluate talent differently and may have different priorities for their team than what we may think. I doubt the Mariners would make the suggested trade, but it is possible they are deeply concerned about their rotation and see an answer in Jackson and Howell that we do not see. And sometimes they prove right, no matter how absurd it may appear at first sight.

by bobr on Dec 5, 2007 10:40 PM EST reply actions  

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