Jake's Take: HOW DARE YOU!!!

by Jacob Larsen on Apr 6, 2007 12:29 PM EDT

As noted before, Cantu wants to be traded because he doesn't "feel" like he's deserving of his demotion. I think that we can go on-and-on about if he should've gotten the axe or not, but that's not the point of my post.

In the last 2 days, I've heard other unproven youngsters demand trades.

Jose Capellan wants out of Milwaukee, erm Nashville, and James Loney wants out of LA...I mean Vegas.

Now, I wouldn't mind myself if we managed to trade Cantu for either one of those players. We don't really have a "franchise" 1B in our organization, which Loney could be, and we would be downright dumb to pass on any kind of pitcher with upside for a 2B who can't field(Milwaukee fans should be used to it, seeing as Weeks really isn't "cutting" it).

My problem is with youngsters demanding trades without really proving themselves to be worthy of that demand. Cantu had a good season, but looking deeper(at his OBP and walk totals) at his 2005 stats, it wasn't really that good. It was lucky and reeks of "fluke". Last night's triple by Cantu wasn't proof of his speed, it was due to luck and possible animal sacrificing(thanks RJ!)

Loney will never win, seeing as Ned Colletti prefers veterans at all starting spots. How else can you explain why Billingsley is pitching out of the bullpen? Loney plays 1B, as does Nomar. Loney can play some OF, but he's never going to be good enough to take the place of Jason Repko or Larry Bigbie.

Jose Capellan, I didn't understand the demotion myself. In my mind, he must've walked 1 too many hitters(a problem that's plagued him) for Maddux and Yost's liking. However, you don't whine and moan for a trade when your major league track record isn't worthy of a "what the hell are they doing?" comment by opposing GMs.

Just go to the minors, put up monster numbers and hope for an injury or a good trade offer to set you free. However, you're only going to offend hometown fans if you keep demanding trades.

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I have no proof...

That Cantu actually killed Barbaro.

However I think he took the term 'slump buster' way too literally most nights.

by R.J. Anderson on Apr 6, 2007 12:35 PM EDT reply actions

Re: Jake's Take: HOW DARE YOU!!!

Call it what you will, but Cantu did have a good 04 and 05, so he does have some merit to his argument.

Meanwhile..

Ben Zobrist:
1-for-9

He hasn't looked all that great and his only hit was a bunt that could have been ruled an error.

Extremely small sample (although it follows on the heels of last year's 572 OPS), and yes his defense is "steady", but if this trend continues.. then what? What are the options?

Could result in a shuffle that gets Cantu back in the majors?

by RATW on Apr 6, 2007 12:51 PM EDT reply actions

Shuffle?

Cantu playing SS would be horrible on the eyes and Upton's play at 2B thus far in 2 games has been enough for me to say "Jorge, who?"

Ben's job, last time I checked, was too take pitchers deep into counts and field solidly at SS. His job, for the most part, isn't really to rack up a .300 average or anything. He's just warming the spot for Brignac, in my mind.

Cantu is a waste of time, in my mind. He can't field better than a bow-legged little-leaguer and his OBP along with his ability to draw walks, for the most part, is non-existant as intelligent life on Mars.

by Jacob Larsen on Apr 6, 2007 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions

The bottom line is

That Cantu is one of the best 25 players the Rays could have brought "north" after ST though. The final roster spot should not have been a competition between Cantu and Gomes, that's absurd. I personally think that Cantu should have been brought into camp as a first baseman and played there throughout the spring, where he could learn the position and minimize his defensive contributions (or lack thereof) while still getting his bat in the lineup. That is what should have been done. I don't feel that it is a tragedy that Cantu was left off, I disagree but I can see the rationale for keeping Brendan Harris. With that said though, there is as much evidence to support 2006 being a fluke as there is evidence supporting that 2005 was a fluke for Cantu. Sophomore slumps do happen.

by Patrick L. Kennedy on Apr 6, 2007 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions

I don't think it was between

Cantu and Gomes. I do believe he's one of the 25 best players on the team, but now looking back and seeing why the move was made, it makes sense.

Going into the season, Upton was their super-utility guy, that's no longer the case. He is now the everyday 2nd baseman. So, with him beating out Cantu as the 2nd baseman, there was no utility guy. They're leaving Bossman at 2nd and now have the need for a new utility guy. Harris was the only person who could fill that role. You have to have a back-up middle infielder, and Cantu just can't do that, so he's out.

Now, they could have cut Norton and left Cantu in his role, but that doesn't make finantial sense. They're already paying Norton (albiet a moderade salary), and he had a good season last year, so why not see if he can't keep that role up this year. If he doesn't, then bring Cantu up when the DFA him or trade Wiggy.

by Tyler on Apr 6, 2007 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions

Re: I don't think it was between

I definitely feel like Cantu should've made the team. I was real high on him going into the 2005 season, and lower going into 2006, but he's easily one of the top 25 players we have ready to play in the majors.

I would also be completely fine with a trade for someone like capellan.

by god allah star on Apr 6, 2007 4:23 PM EDT up reply actions

Also

I'm an idiot and can't spell. Financial!

by Tyler on Apr 6, 2007 5:17 PM EDT up reply actions

Re: I don't think it was between

The further problem, obviated now a bit with the presence (nominally if not in actual games) of Pena is the lack of a lefty bench bat that Norton provides. Would all be comfortable with a Cantu / Pena 1B platoon? What about Wiggy - his trade value is certainly higher than Cantu's right now, and he costs more, although cost given a $24 Mil payroll shouldn't be an issue. But he's also more versatile.

There just isn't a spot for Cantu (except at DH instead of Gomes or Baldelli/Dukes) right now, and so it is between him and Gomes - the other 2 aren't going anywhere. This actually plays to the Rays benefit. As I've said before, if they can keep him in the minors for just over half the season, his arb eligibility will be delayed a year to '09. I'm not looking at this as solely financial (is that right Tyler?) - at the lower salary the Rays can be more patient with his retraining to 1B and see if his bat rebounds to usefulness, and he's more tradeable too. Cutting Norton loose is no big financial issue however - again, the payroll is only $24 million. That's less than receipts from either revenue sharing or the central fund. The Rays have plenty of cash. And if someone picks him up they pay a prorated share of the minimum, which is almost 1/2 his salary. The question is why they're paying Pena $800K as a 3rd 1b?

And forget the Capellan, Loney trades - not unless the Rays significantly sweeten the pot.

by nyyfaninlaaland on Apr 6, 2007 7:43 PM EDT up reply actions

I agree with you

Cantu, in his present form, was not a person that the organization should have kept on the 25 man roster. If he isn't in a starting position, he really has no value off the bench, where versatility is desired. I'm saying Cantu should have made the team as a 1B, which he should have been trained in camp as.

by Patrick L. Kennedy on Apr 6, 2007 11:25 PM EDT up reply actions

Re: I agree with you

But if he's a 1B, then he still has to beat out Norton for the backup 1B job because Wiggy was/is clearly a better hitter than Cantu. Having already invested nearly a million dollars in Norton, and getting the switch hitting versitility out of him, and Cantu having options made it a pretty easy decision IMO to send Cantu down.

Also, I can't imagine the switch to 1st would be that hard for someone who played a middle infield position (no matter how poorly he played that MI position). I'd imagine he's been tried at first before. I've heard rumors he'd be moved there for 2 years. I can't imagine he hasn't been tried there. I'd bet the Rays have probably explored this possiblity, and come to the same conclusion I have, if he isn't a starting 2B, then there is no room for him on the roster.

by Tyler on Apr 7, 2007 1:19 AM EDT up reply actions

Norton should not have been brought back

This wasn't exactly a revolutionary plan that developed during ST, the organization was clearly convinced that Cantu needed to be weaned off second long before camp started, so they just sat him at DH. And even if they weren't convinced he needed to be moved off second, the rest of us were. With that in mind, Norton should have not returned. Investing $1.4 million and a roster spot on a player that is a dime a dozen in free agency was a waste of time, in my opinion. When you have guys like Carlos Peña and Hee Seop Choi available on the cheap almost every FA period, it really would have been better had Norton been let go. Wigginton is expendable and could play multiple positions, including first, second, and third as sort of a utilityman.

At this point, Wigginton is a better hitter than Cantu. True. However he is also more versatile, and Cantu's bad was good enough that you'd want to exhaust every possiblity to get his bat in the lineup, and at this point the possibilities had been narrowed down to DH and 1B due to his defense.

Again, I'm not necessarily saying that this is a slam dunk decision on which the Rays were clearly wrong. I personally think Cantu should have been kept, but it could go either way, and I could understand why they'd want to have Harris for the defensive flexibility.

The specifics of Cantu's history with regards to moving to first base are unknown, although from afar I see no reason that it couldn't have worked, and the team clearly did not explore the option seriously enough to have him play at first during gametime, and I think that is a mistake. What is there to lose?

by Patrick L. Kennedy on Apr 7, 2007 3:12 AM EDT up reply actions

Re: Norton should not have been brought back

Exactly. Not only is Norton not particularly hard to replace which is basis alone for not re-signing him, I strongly doubt he will put up numbers approaching last season. If Cantu's two solid years are a fluke, you have to same the same about a guy putting up a career year when already past his prime.

by RATW on Apr 7, 2007 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions

Re: Norton should not have been brought back

Oh, I'd be the first to say Norton's season last year was a fluke.

I was hoping that Norton would've been cut, but his DL thing was well-timed in my estimation.

by Jacob Larsen on Apr 7, 2007 5:02 PM EDT up reply actions

Cutting him would have been counterproductive

There wasn't anything he could enlighten us with in ST that would have made keeping him around worth it. If they signed him, they might as well keep him. He isn't a bad bench bat, but he is a dime a dozen. But once you guarantee him $1.4 million, or whatever his buyout is, it isn't worth cutting him.

by Patrick L. Kennedy on Apr 8, 2007 12:26 AM EDT up reply actions

Re: Shuffle?

I think the meaning was Upton at SS. If BJ steadys, that might become an option if Zobrist can't hit his weight. The requirements for the 2 hitter are a little more demanding than your profile - of course if Aki or BJ are hitting, there will be options there.

Really, Jake, Cantu's got his own career to worry about - if trying to push for a trade cause he fears getting buried is the strategy he decides on, he has that right. Kicking ass and taking names in AAA won't hurt - it's probably the best he can do right now. But he's got a right to express himself, and broadcasting the trade desire might help more than hurt, if only in attracting suitors

It seems to me Cantu's getting the Huff treatment here. Once a guy's out of the picture they were worthless. It seems to me your hopes & feelings for Jorge were much more positive a month ago.

by nyyfaninlaaland on Apr 6, 2007 7:52 PM EDT up reply actions

Re: Shuffle?

First off, Rays fans know what Upton looks like at SS. We don't need a review. He looks steady at 2B for a reason, why switch him yet again?

Next, I've had no positive things to say about Cantu in awhile. I don't know where you're getting this idea that I thought of Cantu in a positive sense.

Finally, you don't have a right to demand a trade after 1 good (though fluke-smelling) season. He must not be that intelligent, seeing that's absurd to believe that you're a cornerstone player based off 1 year. It doesn't happen in any other sport, last time I checked.

by Jacob Larsen on Apr 7, 2007 2:36 AM EDT up reply actions

I'm not saying that Cantu is correct

In his beliefs about his place with the organzation and his demand for a trade, however it is unrealistic to expect a guy who was the 2005 Team MVP, who was injured for a lot of last year and who had been productive before that to just take an ST demotion quietly. Of course he's going to be upset, and when his emotions got the better of him, he said some stupid and illogical things. But him being upset is not unexpected, of course he is upset, and he will vent, just like people do in all work environments.

by Patrick L. Kennedy on Apr 7, 2007 3:16 AM EDT up reply actions