Bestbuy
by Mick 08'
on Aug 24, 2007 7:58 AM EDT
If Sternberg didn't make the deal of the Century when buying 48% of the Mudhens no one did. Stuey is shrewd, is all I have to say. He's most likely recovered all the monies laid out in his purchase of the Mudhens by going cheap and playing minor leaguers.
Here's the diddy to consider:
Stuey & co. purchased 48% of Tampa Bay's baseball team for $65M. Naimoli still has his hand out for 15%, & 37% is owned by investors. Not to knock Naimoli or the investors, but these guys are dumb asses!
Why? In 1995 Naimloi's group purchased the team for $130M. They basically sold half the team in 2005 for $65M. Forbes magazine now values the Mudhens at $270M.
So how did greedy Stu & his wallstreet penny-pinchers fair in this deal? Quite simply put they paid $2 for a $4 share of stock. Stu paid $65M for roughly half of a team that's worth $270M.
Not only has Stu made the deal of the century, he's sticking it to all the fans of Tampa/St Pete by fielding the lowest payroll in MLB. I say fielding the lowest payroll, not players. Stuey and his do-boyz look at player salary they're fielding, not the player.
Greedy Stu's all about the money and contracts he puts on the field. He could make a killing if he sold the team NOW! I realize this is a business, however, when you're in the public eye and people around the Bay area count on you, Stu's really sticking it to everyone putting cheap crap on the field and lying his ass off. For that alone he should be run out of town.
Let's hope and pray that he sells, and soon.
Mark Cuban, come on down!
"Due to budget cuts, the light at the end of the tunnel has been turned off."
--Stuey Sternberg.
Stuey, here greedy, greedy, greedy, greedy.
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Re: Bestbuy
Zito, Meche and a few other scrubs.
When the time is right (2009) and he does not get a couple of key guys to surround our young studs then we can call him out.
We will be moving up both sides of this chart within the next 2 years.
by bpoe13 on Aug 24, 2007 12:26 PM EDT 0 recs
Re: Bestbuy
Who could the Rays have signed, that would actually help this team in the long run? Who would have been willing to come to Tampa, to play with a young team that has no business of being above .500 for at least 2 years? Have there been any free agents out there that were worth their money? Besides Brendon Harris and Pena?
I can't think of a single player that would fit that criteria. Zito isn't better then shields, and by the time the young players hit their prime he would be retired and washed out(2008). The mariners didn't even think Meche was worth 12mill, and he isn't.
Let's look at the facts.
Stu spent over 14mill opening up a Venezuelan academy.
You don't have to pay for parking.
You can bring in your own food and drinks.
The trop has had noticable remodling done, and doesn't look as crappy as it used to.
The team signs all it's young talent.
Who was the last good player the rays let go?
Lugo? Harris is better.
Huff? Pena is better.
Baez? Reyes is better.
Let's look at a few of the teams that have actually won a world series lately.
Cards- home grown talent
White sox - home grown talent
Boston - Bought and paid for
Angels - home grown
Arizona - half bought/half paid for
Marlins - home grown
Tampa will never be a major market team, and there are way to many examples of small market teams winning the world series with talent raised from within their systems to justify spending money on free agents that would be retired/washed up by the time our young players are ready for a real run.
Mick, here is my suggestion. Stick to hockey and football, it is alot less complicated, and I know you irish can't handle complicated things.
by Jhattenburg on Aug 24, 2007 4:01 PM EDT 0 recs
Re: Bestbuy
I think his point is that the new owners have done well, and their reinvestments have been a little light. There could have been some moves made that could have benefitted the team now and down the road, and there's nothing wrong with a little investment in now - it makes the team more attractive down the road. The fact is Meche wasn't a bad move - it's gonna take a substantial investment to get a guy who can be a top 2 in a rotation- and Meche's numbers are top 2. That he's not getting wins isn't his fault. But the long run is what will tell on such a deal.
I wouldn't count my chickens on your 3 acquisitions just yet - Pena's got a pretty inconsistent track record, Harris has none, and Reyes hasn't been as stellar as all here seem to think, though compared to the rest of the pen he's Cy Young. Again, time will tell.
And on your homegrown list, well, check your facts. For the Cards, with only Pujols, Molina, Duncan, A.Reyes, and a couple of back end relievers that's a stretch - the Yankees are more homegrown than that. I wouldn't say the ChiSox qualified either, with only Crede, Rowand, Buerhle, Garland, and some RP's there.
To me the point is there's plenty of money available ($65 mil a year from revenue sharing and the Central fund before a ticket is sold in each of the last 2 years) - what's wrong with investing to improve in the present and develop some positive momentum? I'm not suggesting stupid deals be made, but I'd bet my house the Rays will never succeed if they refuse to spend more than a mil on a free agent (oh, right, Aki got 1.8 - woo hoo!). I know it's hard for them to attract talent now and they might have to overpay a little, but the opportunity to send the message that we're going to compete when you have the luxury of an extraordinarily low payroll shouldn't be squandered.
Had the Rays made the deals for Meche, Jamie Walker, Chad Bradford, and Ted Lilly, the payroll would be $43.6 million, an increase of $8.2 from '06 (instead of the $11 mil cut). And you might be pushing .500 now, maybe even better. Not saying that could have been pulled off, but it certainly wouldn't have been an unreasonable expense. The whole picture would be different - the best Rays team ever, by far. You'd be one of the biggest stories in baseball. And the likely attendance gain would have more than offset the added payroll.
Instead we're talking about why Fernando Cabrera won't come.
To me the Angels might be the true prototype - yeah, they were homegrown, and still are, but they're willing to make key, big acquisitions (Guerrero, Cabrera, Matthews, Colon) and pay handsomely to retain the best homegrowns and trade gains (Lackey, Escobar, Figgins) to maintain competitiveness over time. By the way, checked their payroll lately?
by nyyfaninlaaland on
Aug 24, 2007 5:13 PM EDT
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Re: Bestbuy
Another point - if homegrown is THE path to long term success, does it not strike you that of the Series winners listed, only the "bought and paid for" Red Sox returned to the playoffs the following year?
Amazing what one can do with "facts"!
by nyyfaninlaaland on
Aug 24, 2007 7:00 PM EDT
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Re: Bestbuy
by nyyfaninlaaland on
Aug 24, 2007 5:16 PM EDT
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Re: Bestbuy
On Meche, his salary is lower this year than Washburn's, Batista's, or Weaver's, and his pitching numbers are better than each. So I think it's at lest possible the Mariners might have second thoughts there. His contract is backloaded so the Royals can grow into it. Their payroll will tumble again next year even with his contract, but they're likely to be a better team. And other desireable free agents might find them a more palatable destination. Since Zito is signed through 2013, and is only 29, I don't think he'll be gone by 2008. One good or bad year doesn't make a good or bad player.
And how does free parking, bringing your own food, and a polished up stadium substitute for trying to build a better team? Oh I guess if you can draw more fans to increase revenue, that helps down the road. Is that strategy working? Hmmm, last I checked, Rays attendance is, uh, down almost 10%. To see a better team fans will happily pay for parking and food - this means even more revenue for the future.
But the Venezuela thing was good.
And remember crazy Jim Hendry's Cubs? Spent like a drunken sailor. Just moved into first place (from last in '06) past the homegrown Brewers, whose payroll by the way is about 3 times that of the Rays. Success is the best revenge.
Again, we Irish apologize for our inability to grasp the complicated. Apparently your ethnicity, whatever it may be, struggles with the factual.
by nyyfaninlaaland on
Aug 24, 2007 6:32 PM EDT
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Re: Bestbuy
by nyyfaninlaaland on
Aug 24, 2007 6:44 PM EDT
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Re: Bestbuy
by nyyfaninlaaland on
Aug 24, 2007 6:45 PM EDT
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Re: Bestbuy
Mick annoys the shit outta me as well but you can't go after someones nationality like that. That is dirty pool. One idiot does not make them all idiots.
by Elgrandeplatano on Aug 24, 2007 11:11 PM EDT 0 recs
Re: Bestbuy
In 2006 the NYY, DET, OAK, MIN made the playoffs in the A.L. NYM, STL,LA, SD in the N.L.
Of course the mega spenders make it to the playoffs almost every season as they spend to get the best of players and never , ever, fail to sign and keep their own stars. In the case above, NYY, DET, STL, NYM, LA all spent the most in their respective Divisions, all made the playoffs. Only the Angels failed to make the playoffs of the teams that spent the most in ea. Division. The Angels were only a few games back and nearly hit the wild card and were a hair away from winning the Division. So I ask, is this all coincidence?
Hell No!
Look at all the past seasons and you get basically the same results.
The Minnesota's & Oakland's of the world focus on their core players, and drafting and replenishing pitching, pitching, pitching. There are far less pitchers to pay large salaries to is the philosophy. The Indians are doing the same thing this season. However, even in these cases the teams are spending approx. $70M annually to get to the playoffs. The Yanks, LAD, NYM, STL, DET, all $100M & up. Still, money talks. Even in the cases of Oak, and Min. we'd have to agree that the Red Sox & Angels were the better teams and were a whisker away from the playoffs. Again, money talks.
Of course Mudhen ownership is trying to be the next CLE, OAK, MIN of MLB. Going after pitching in all places.
Why do I get on current ownerships ass? Quite simple put, I believe that ownership of the Blue Jays and Orioles are making bigger strides than the Mudhens each season to improve their respective teams. second, their dedicating monies to the team. Sternberg isn't, He lied! PERIOD! STuey never has stated a plan to attract star players, nor has he stated he'd spend to get the to Tampa. That's the HUGE concern.
The Mudhens have maybe the best young talent I've seen on the field ever in Upton, Young, C.C., Baldelli, Dukes, Kaz, Shields. In the minors, Neimann, Townsend, Price, Tiffany, Talbot and the list of pitchers go on. It's all great if you like watching young guys play. The fact remains, there has to be an influx of some FA stars, and trades for star players for this to work. It almost never solely works with building around your own organization alone. I can't name an instance that a team has won it all since free agency began.
While you may like watching the young guys play day in and day out. I want to see the Mudhens go out and get Cabrerra or Willis from the Marlins. Andruw Jones from the Braves. These are the type of players that draw out a crowd. No, we can't go out and get players like we did with MCGriff, Canseco and all the HR hitters who were busts. That was spending money just to spend. they weren't acquistions to help the team.
If the Mudhens spend they can compete even in the East. It's not rocket science to realize if they went out and spent on 3 - pitchers thru free agency or trades this off season, this team could make more than noise next season.
SO I ask, what are they waiting for?
There are 3 types of people in this world.
1- Those who make it happen.
2-Those who watch it happen.
3- And those who wonder, "what the hell happened!'
Where does Mudhen ownership fit into the above? It's fact, you have to spend money to win in MLB. Sterberg won't commit the $$$$. He needs to be ousted.
The State of Fl, and Mick rests it's case.
GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO......... MUDHENS!
by Mick 08' on Aug 25, 2007 9:57 AM EDT 0 recs
Re: Bestbuy
Further, everyone fails to point out the benefit of free parking, allowing food into the park, and the dome improvements? Wouldn't a true greedy s.o.b. pinch all the pennies possible? Anyone who has been to the Trop this year, and is not incredibly biased, must say that it is much more fun to watch a game than it was in the past.
I also love how Detroit is pointed to as "doing things right". This is the same Detroit that won 43 games a few years back and had their first winning season in twelve years last year. They were also a team than didn't see victories until they supplemented their veterans with young talent (what a difference, Verlander, Bonderman, Granderson, and that young bullpen made). Don't even have me bring up the Brewers.
we can whine and cry all we want, but it would be extremely foolish for Stuey to blow money by the boatloads when the team isn't ready to contend. I would like to see you argue that this team could have contended this year or last year? Next year and the following are different stories.
As for what they could have spent last year, I agree that they missed the boat on Walker and Bradford. But that is a mistake that a lot of other teams made as well. Meche and Lilly were moves that most people mocked. It'll be interesting to see if they can keep up their performances for more than a couple years. Neither (or both) would have made the Rays contenders this season.
by tallyray on Aug 25, 2007 2:18 PM EDT 0 recs
Re: Bestbuy
Detroit is a great example of how it can be done if you've got a core of good young players - the importance of which you rightly point out. But who supplemented who? Lets suppose 3 types of players: "homegrowns" never played elsewhere; "Earlies", acquisitions who debuted elsewhere but weren't key pieces until with the team (could call these cheap pickups, but that sounds bad); and "acquires" who had played significantly elsewhere.
In '03 when they won 43 games, they already had homeys Inge, Maroth (the unfortunate one), Ledezma, Infante, Rodney, & Bonderman, and earlies Walker and Monroe.
In '04 earlies Thames and Robertson joined with acquires Pudge (remember how nuts everyone thought he and they were) and Guillen and they won 72 games. Nice Improvement!
In '05 homey (don't take that the wrong way) Granderson debuts, Ordonez and Polanco (in season trade) are acquired, but only 71 wins. Hmmm? Minny was still good, but Chicago exploded and CLE made a leap forward.
But in '06 things come together with homeys Verlander, Zumaya, and Miner, early Grilli, and the acquisitions of Rogers, Jones, and Casey in season. So who supplemented who?
Interestingly, the acquisitions were a C, 2 mid IF's, OF, 1B, SP, and closer. Drop the OF, add 2 relievers and who could we be talking about?
But staying there is tough - the Tigers look to be joining a distinguished list of Series teams this decade that fail to make the playoffs the next season.
Oh, and when the Brewers make the playoffs, or even top .500 (a number they're rapidly approaching from the wrong direction) we can talk about them - and their $70+ mil payroll.
The path to success isn't "blowing money by the boatloads", but Mick's point that waiting isn't the right way is also true. Cause when you get close there's no guarantee the parts you need will be available - you gotta buy them when they are. People may have scoffed at the Meche deal, and as I said time will tell, but KC sent the message to the market they're building for the future, and they'll be spinning off a ton of payroll this year (Sweeney, Sanders, Elarton, Larue, Perez, Dotel) so they'll have the cash to keep going. Like the Pudge deal for Detroit, when you're near the bottom you gotta send the message out loud.
And take a look at Lilly's season numbers compared to Big Z who just signed the monster deal - jeez that deal doesn't look so bad now does it. That crazy Jim Hendry and the worst to first Cubs. Success is the best revenge.
Mick's point is do something, and not just the $800k and hope deals. Between you and I, looking at their career stats, I'm not convinced Reyes and Pena are the keystones you're looking for. Unfortunately this isn't shaping up as a banner year for free agency, but you can think a little different - for example, what would it take to get Renteria from the Braves? They're gonna be willing to move him. Too bad Rocco's legs keep exploding, he was the beginning of a good fit. Take a shot at Freddy Garcia, a flyer on Matt Clement, or a less dramatic and cheaper Carlos Silva (only with a SS with range) or bring back Joe Kennedy. Or go balls to the wall (not family friendly?) and do what it takes to get Linebrink, Gagne (the price is falling!), or F. Cordero! But do something that gets attention and can help for more than 1 or 2 years.
by nyyfaninlaaland on
Aug 26, 2007 4:26 AM EDT
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Re: Bestbuy
My point with the Tigers is that the splash wasn't made with free-agency. The team didn't get better until it had productive young talent to go with the veterans. The Rays (kind of opposites) need to wait until the young talent is ready before veteran additions will even matter. Other teams (San Diego, Milwaukee, Cleveland) have had a similar approach.
Stu and Co. have said many times that this team should contend by '08 and '09. All the efforts they have made seem to focus on this time period. While I agree that they missed on free agent relief pitching (something that wouldn't have transformed this team into a contender) they have played it right everywhere else. They have attempted to find a keeper at each position for the '08 - '10 run, and all their efforts seem to point to this plan. They have Pena at least through next season (and anyone who argues that Pena won't be productive for the next couple of years should back that with some type of reasoning). They acquired Aki and they now figured out where BJ fits. They now know they have a solid 1+2, a possible back-end guy (Jackson) and a handful of guys who may stick (Howell, Sonnanstine, Hammell). They also know Salas will be reliable, Wheeler will be there through next year, and Balfour and Dohmann have shown promise. Reyes is a nice player to have but i don't think anyone expects him to carry a bullpen (though Borowski and Todd Jones have managed to do alright).
The other thing the Rays managed to do is figure out who probably won't help this team contend. Navarro is on the chopping block, Cantu is gone, and Rocco has proven to be an unnecessary commodity. The Rays haven't taken a step back this year, they are at a better place going forward then they have ever been. They also have more financial flexibility than ever. We can argue that Sternberg hasn't spent money, but he has never been in the position to spend money for a team ready to contend. He'll be in that position soon enough.
by tallyray on
Aug 26, 2007 10:54 AM EDT
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Re: Bestbuy
My concern with Pena is his track record. He had 3 years of 400+ AB's with good power, high K's in Detroit. Admittedly his BA and BB are up significantly, so it's very possible he's matured. But I've seen people talk about him going the other way as to why he's hitting better - take a look at his hitting chart on mlb.com in the Trop (unfortunately they don't provide an overall home and road look). He doesn't really hit to the left side at all. Are teams shifting on him like Bonds, Giambi, or Papi? (I don't actually see your games since I'm in SoCal) If not (but looking at that I can't imagine they aren't), I'd be concerned, cause they will. If so, then it looks like you have a Giambi who can actually play 1B too.
Likewise I remain unconvinced about the pen. Wheeler looks to me like Scott Proctor - a guy who may have been used up, emphasis on may. And I'm not sure the jury is out on Salas, Balfour, and Dohmann yet, but they deserve every opportunity to prove themselves. And your Reyes analogy is right on, but he's not very likely to be around as a key piece of the contending puzzle anyway.
Again, I agree spending to contend could and should be right around the corner. And I do think it will happen. But, flogging that dead horse once more, I also think some of it should have happened already. It's not like the AL East competition is gonna just sit on their hands and watch.
Imagine what a splash you'd make if you brought an opt-out A Rod back to Fla. and SS! Now that would get people to sit up and take notice. No bitching about where the revenue sharing money was going after that.
by nyyfaninlaaland on
Aug 26, 2007 3:26 PM EDT
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Re: Bestbuy
But I could really care less about the 10 million dollar video board or the little kids fair area. I have always like watching games at the trop.
by Elgrandeplatano on Aug 25, 2007 8:45 PM EDT 0 recs
Re: Bestbuy
Scoreboards, field turf, baseball fields in Venezuela, Cambodia, & Peru don't put stars on this field. The Tampa Bay area could give two shits about paying for parking or being able to brownbag it into the Trop.
What the fans of Tampa want is to be able to get to the park with ownership announcing that they just made a deal with the Cleveland Indians for C.C. Sabathia. We want to see Sternberg take a chance on ManRam when the Sox put him on waivers and pick him up.
The above is what this area, this town, is waiting for. We've heard all the B.S. before. Unless Sternberg does what Toronto's ownership group did 3 seasons ago when the Mudhens overtook them to pull out of last place for the 1st time since their inception. Ownership in Toronto knows money buys championships. They dedicated to add $50M in payroll over a period of three seasons. Toronto's a snatch hair from being a great ballclub if you know how to evaluate talent.
Is there risk? There's risk in anything you do. There has to be a light at the end of the tunnel that is attainable.
IMO, Sternberg does not have the attainable plan to win. He is vague and in the grey area in anything he says. Such as, "We'll be adding payroll next season." Of course, guys will be making more on their current contracts DUMB ASS! Tell us how you're going to grow payroll is we what we want to hear.
The worst verbage a fan can hear in any area is, "we won't overspend." We hear this in Tampa all the time from Andrew Fried "chicken" man. If the Bay area is to get a star it has to overspend. So now, what does this tell us all? No stars will be coming to Tampa.
This is a money game. The more you spend (wisely), the more you win. This team can go out and spend and spend and spend and become a contender by next season and still turn a profit.
My question is, why don't they? Sternbergs got the resources, he's just hoarding the money.
And to Elgayplatano. You've got to be one of Sternberg's kids who's taking part of the megamillions Stuey's making and buying your new Ferarri and Yacht & Mansion in Monte Carlo. There can be no other answer to your backing his cheapness.
"Due to budget cuts, the light at the end of the tunnel has been turned off."
---Stuey Sternberg
by Mick 08' on Aug 26, 2007 11:01 AM EDT 0 recs
Re: Bestbuy
What the fans of Tampa want is to be able to get to the park with ownership announcing that they just made a deal with the Cleveland Indians for C.C. Sabathia. We want to see Sternberg take a chance on ManRam when the Sox put him on waivers and pick him up."
As far as the first part, I'll disagree; where do you think guys like Johan Santana, Rafael Furcal, Pedro Martinez came from? Trying to be pioneers of an uncharted baseball territory is smarter than you're giving credit for, in fact look at the two mega deals at the deadline; Tex / Gagne, both included a young, hotshot international signee.
As for the free parking and stadium I disagree again, sure it doesn't seem like a lot, but when you don't have to pay for parking or a round of drinks it makes the experience more fiscally able for students and retirees, as well as the average American family living in a sports town where the Bucs' prices are absurd.
C.C. Sabathia, dreaming much? And Manny and such, you do realize they easily could've claimed a few of these guys on waivers who got pulled back, right? As far as the proclamation that money is everything; were you one of the people driving the Sean Casey bandwagon, despite the fact that Carlos Pena had better stats before this year? 800K for Pena, 4 mil for Casey; that's smart business right there.
by R.J. Anderson on
Aug 26, 2007 11:11 AM EDT
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Re: Bestbuy
And Pena only had better power stats, the rest of the offensive picture was very much in Casey's favor. Not that I would have pushed that one hard. Manny could have been taken from the Sox for nothing (except paying his large salary) when they put him on nonrevocable release waivers before last season. No pulling him back there. But everyone flinched, not just the Rays. And I think the Sabathia thing is just a hypothetical example of a big move.
I know Mick's style can be irritating ("snatch hair" may have gone over the top), but there is some point in waht he's saying, and us outsiders sometimes wonder why many here seem to give the DRO such a pass. Maybe they've tried and failed, but that doesn't necessarily bode well for the immediate future now does it.
by nyyfaninlaaland on
Aug 26, 2007 3:50 PM EDT
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Re: Bestbuy
I know it's a blog, and drama is appreciated for what it is, but that doesn't qualify.
by nyyfaninlaaland on
Aug 26, 2007 3:55 PM EDT
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Re: Bestbuy
We, the Rays fans, look at the moves they've made since Nov 05 and see that we have a load of depth pitching wise; most of that coming from the old DRO, and an unbelievable amount of ready offensive talent; we also understand that signing a band aid doesn't help matters and that we can be stung for making a retarded deal (Juan Guzman, Wilson Alvarez) the DRO has done a heckuva lot cosmetically that the fans appreciate that, and can deal with two progression years before we begin contending.
Were we going to compete this year by signing Dotel, Zito, Schmidt, and Gagne? Probably not, we're too streaky at this point. In the end it looks like letting Jackson work through his issues may pay off, giving Pena and Harris a chance, ect. and we had to put up with Naimoli where we'd do stupid shit like sign Roberto Alomar instead of playing Cantu, or Terry Shumphert rather than give Matt Diaz or B.J. Upton a shot, we've lost too many good players because of band aids; which is why we're more accepting of this style of building a team.
by R.J. Anderson on
Aug 26, 2007 4:02 PM EDT
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We're planning on an academy in Peru?
by Patrick L. Kennedy on
Aug 26, 2007 6:35 PM EDT
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Re: Bestbuy
You are an idiot. You come on here and rant about stupid shit and make up "funny" nicknames that nobody gets.
If I was one of Stuey's kids and had a ferrari and a mansion in monte carlo would I really care what your or anyone else has to say? Nope. I would not read this site or any other rays blog for that matter. Actually I am quite poor.
The rays did not need to spend money this offseason. We were not going to contend. Delmon was going to start in right field and Upton was beginning a new position. Young pitchers are going to be getting call ups really soon and Longoria should as well.
They went out and got Iwamura who has been pretty fantastic and gave us a legit lead off hitter. Who would have figured that Harris or Pena would do this well? Don't try and say you did either. The rays have one more losing season to go through and then it will be time.
We need to see what pitchers are major league quality other than Kaz and Shields. Young needs to stop trying to throw out every single baserunner at third and Upton needs to keep figuring out the outfield.
If we go out and spend alot of money on 3 starting pitchers to compliment kaz and shields it has the potential to do us more harm than good. We need to evaluate the pitching talent that we have on a major league level first. Then you go out and spend on hopefully 1 starter and 3 relievers. Why spend 10 million when we might be able to pay Jeff, Mitch, Wade, and a few others the league minimum.
And once again I could careless what you say when you start name calling and stuff. Kinda like when I defended you for someone calling you a stupid Irishmen.
Good Night Now!
by Elgrandeplatano on
Aug 26, 2007 8:11 PM EDT
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Re: Bestbuy
Toronto is not a hair from contention. They are a .500 ball club that isn't improving much. They signed aging veterans to lucrative deals. Their best moves were keeping their homegrown talent, something the Rays have done as well. Say what you want, but they did resign Carl and Rocco, something a cheap organization would have avoided.
Also, do you think the Red Sox are still interested in dumping Manny? What exactly would the Indians trade C.C. for (arguably a top-5 starter in MLB)? I'm sure you are also one in favor of resigning the expensive Julio Lugo and dumping the unproven BJ Upton.
Instead of just continuing to rant, why don't you respond to the many facts that some of the posters have replied with? Nothing wrong with a dissenting opinion, it just comes off as trolling when supported by broad baseless suggestions.
by tallyray on Aug 26, 2007 11:50 AM EDT 0 recs
Re: Bestbuy
Just how well have the Rays really done considering their record is at best no worse than what they were a year ago? Are we as fans going to accept below-mediocrity regardless of the circumstances? The team has to identify its weaknesses and address them REGARDLESS of salary or price considerations. We can argue until we are blue in the face about Julio Lugo and Brendan Harris or whoever because how would anyone know for sure (except Bill James) if Lugo really did like it here? Who will be the team's closer when this team becomes good? How long can Reyes last?
This is what I am saying. Why should Stuart Sternberg offer any regret or remorse not signing David Price when he knew very well the ramifications would be if he didn't sign him. And if you don't like signing amateur talent to these kinds of deals, then put a better frigging product on the major league roster and you wouldn't be drafting so high! Some of these arguments that the DRO puts themselves in are the chicken and the egg as far as I am concerned. To the DRO's defense, this is a "process" in their words, yet as explained and delineated in today's paper, attendance is DOWN from last year, even with the "sellouts" from the Yankees and Red Sox games offered with the tarp over the top of the 300 section at the Trop.
Bottom line, the NDRO in 21 months is masterful in selling the fans of Tampa Bay about the future. And that is understandable. However, when at least 2 teams in the AL East are playing for no less than right now and the future every year, then when will the future be now for this club? No one can deny how good CC, BJ, Delmon, Shields and Kaz are as a foundation, but after those five, and yes, I did not include Pena, who can you rely on? You can't just expect and demand guys that play for 800K play like their $8-10M stars. That is not how MLB works and it has gotten the DRO a horrible reputation industry wide. People don't want to hear about the attrition rate in Central and Latin America when maybe 2 out of every 10 players that go to these academies see the light of day in AA, AAA let alone the big show.
Why sell the fans on something that isn't tangible and treat the fans as if we were the Board of Directors? I will speak in terms of that since Stu Sternberg is sitting back in his Charles Xavier mansion up there in Westchester. I am not offering anti-Ray sentiment here, I want to know when, how the Rays will take a step up and stop accepting the results they will get. It begins with Stuart Sternberg and how much resources and time is he going to invest. I said it before, there can be zero caveats, conditions or restictions in dealing with Boston and New York and I am shocked that he has offered excuses instead of holding players and executives accountable for his expectations.
Sometimes, you have to eat your pride and make a deal you don't want to do. And I am not saying that "spending money for the sake of it". That argument I have heard a lot is bogus. You spend money for the sake of gaining respect, to improve your club, to become a legitimate operation, and to win world championships. Argue what you want about the free agent crops, but "hot minor league prospects" win you squat in the long run without solid, and sadly costly alternatives.
by joedobr on Aug 26, 2007 2:10 PM EDT 0 recs
Re: Bestbuy
How often do you see Billy Beane or Terry Ryan, geniuses in "How to produce alot, while spending very little", go on spending sprees and make questionable "costly" signings?
I'm sorry to tell you this, but I really believe that over 60% of all Rays fans know "jack shit" about the farm systems and how many future major league starters/regulars will come out of it. A small committee of Rays fans, which includes me, will hope to fix that before next year begins. You may whine and moan how 75% homegrown teams end up doing very little in winning championships, but it prevents the team from making insane and nonsensical long-term investments. Why risk money by signing a free-agent reliever whose arm is 60 innings from having a completely ravaged arm and completely out of baseball before the contract has ended? Remember Juan Guzman????
I hate how people misunderstand comments from our NDRO and overreact/make rash generalizations from them. Yes, Stu wishes he would've spent less money in signing Price, but he still signed him for the 3rd largest contract in MLB Draft History and the 2nd largest bonus in MLB Draft History. In the same breath, don't you think that Detroit(MLB contract for a HS kid), NY(15 MIL contract for a guy going to get operated on before he even pitches), Baltimore(Largest up-front bonus ever, due to the lack of a major league deal) and KC(went way overslot, for an obvious overdraft) would've loved to spend less money than they did? While you think that he should've just not opened his mouth, don't you think it's better to have an owner that's "up front" with his feelings? He's the same guy that wanted to personally release Dukes but had to be stopped from doing so because of MLBPA rules.
When I read that they're going to spend money this offseason, I don't read it as they're talking about current players' contracts. That's a given and has already been discussed in-house, but I think they're talking about spending in free agency at a higher frequency than they have in the past.
by Jacob Larsen on
Aug 27, 2007 2:11 PM EDT
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Re: Bestbuy
Beane and Ryan have made some gaffs - everyone does. They know you have to take some risks, and some won't pay off. In Minny they tend towards the lower end of the price spectrum (Ryan in last 2 years: Batista, Rondell White, Ponson, Ramon Ortiz), and I'd think Beane regrets the Loaiza deal. But that happens. You can't be afraid to fail, or too risk-averse.
And you're probably right about the farm system avareness - it's only the baseball geeks like us that spend so much time on this. And the Rays do have nice prospects on the way to join a nice young core. But most fans want to see a good team play baseball. There's nothing wrong with that. And feeding that desire with some acquisitions to improve the club in the short run and maybe in the long run too, building fan momentum and a sense that the Rays are moving forward is a good thing for the future. More important in my mind than free parking, which isn't a bad thing either.
I guess my point is you can't just turn on the acquisition spigot when you want to - you've got to act when the opportunity is there. Prospects usually take time to develop, and sometimes they fail; acquisitions also fail, but they succeed too. The Rays had, and continue to have, the opportunity to make a handful of current acquisitions given an exceptionally low payroll in baseball's current revenue structure. Maybe they tried and failed - but I wouldn't take that as a positive indicator. I think the concern about Steinberg's comments is that they suggest discomfort with spending. Since the organization really hasn't yet, there's the underlying fear that maybe they won't. I agree with you that they will, but what will be there to get when they're ready? Again, time will tell.
by nyyfaninlaaland on
Aug 27, 2007 6:38 PM EDT
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Re: Bestbuy
In my opinion, you have to at least try to punch Boston and New York occassionally in the Hot Stove and take your shots at a specific kind of player. Problem is the Rays want players they can control prior till they become free agents. Its all about players who are younger than 27 or players like Pena, Wigginton, Reyes and Julio Lugo who can resuscitate their careers and are at industry-regarded below-average contracts. Pena will get a raise to about the $4M range since he has arbitration control due to his service time, but isn't the name of the game in the end the world championship?
We'll never be able to prove this because its conjecture, but how would Minnesota or Oakland fare if competing directly in the AL East on a yearly basis? How many more wins would Toronto have in the Central?
My point about Sternberg is that it may have been best not to comment about that or he would be regarded in the manner I have referred to him as. And this goes back to the offseason and Stuart Sternberg's direction and resolve. Sure the payroll will go up, it has to, and we know that. But how come he didn't say or want to say by how or why? Its always ambiguous, open-ended comments and we wouldn't be questioning him. That is the gist of it. I wouldn't offer the comments I did if he didn't question why Price signed for that amount?! That is Stuart Sternberg's job, role and function to make that signing and he shouldn't have made it sound like it was the end of the world! For me, it just raises additional questions. But he can prove me wrong.
by joedobr on
Aug 27, 2007 7:20 PM EDT
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Jesus Christ, Joe
To think we're going to go from a 10 year losing team to a World Series winner is foolish and outlandish. Shooting for .500 seasons in 2008 and 2009 and gunning for a run at the playoffs and World Series is more of a realistic plan to me.
Terry Ryan and Billy LaMar Beane may not have a World Series trophy in their office, but they've at least gotten to the playoffs and made their attempts at getting to a World Series.
You may bitch and moan all you want about Stu's comments, but he's got the money and the minds behind him that make him better fit at getting the Rays over the hump than you do....Giving him 23 months before ragging on his comments and knack for finding a more team-friendly deal is what I come to expect out of Rays fans as of late, they seem so f'd up by the Naimoli-Chuckles regime that they don't know up from down anymore.
by Jacob Larsen on
Aug 28, 2007 4:52 PM EDT
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Re: Jesus Christ, Joe
So you're saying if Sternberg went out and spent $50 mil on some free agents and the Rays won the World Series next year you'd be pissed?
And the "he's got the money and the minds behind him that make him better fit at getting the Rays over the hump than you do". Well of course, but that's a meaningless statement. Does that make the organization immune to criticism, or the critics absolutely incorrect? Rays fans have every right to wonder about the organizational direction. Fans of other organizations have every right to be concerned that they're taking the revenue sharing money and running counter to the expressed intent of such funding in the CBA. The DRO deserves the time to prove those concerns incorrect. They have the right to build the organization according to their long term plan for success, if fact there is one beyond profit maximization (free parking notwithstanding).
I actually think (or at least hope) that long term success is the goal, and if that can be achieved without adding any free agents or higher priced acquisitions, more power to the DRO. I also think the idea behind the "level the playing field" revenue sharing structure is to ensure teams try to remain somewhat competitive in the present, and I haven't viewed the DRO as meeting that obligation. They have made some good, cost effective acquisitions, but you can't deny that it's at least possible they could have made other, pricier, but effective acquisitions as well. And I admit they may have tried and failed.
It was of course conjecture and not terribly likely, but had the Rays added the 4 pitchers I mentioned above, even if they had to pay them somewhat more than their new franchises did, and got the same production out of them, they could have pushed your goal of 81 wins. With 2 added starters and 2 relievers each with ERA's under 4 on your team replacing some of what was there I'm fairly confident of that. And for now anyway it wouldn't have been financially imprudent - 3 years down the road adjustmants might have been required. But that's baseball. Look at the Tigers again. They improved, stalled, then shot to the Series. I don't think their fans were upset they hadn't reached .500 or made the playoffs first. I'm a big fan of improvement too - I said here before this season began, a season of over 70 wins would have to be considered a success. Of course this is all hypothetical. But so is relying solely on the developemnt of your prospects into a complete major league roster.
But I'm not in charge, so my opinion plus 2 bucks gets you a cup of coffee.
by nyyfaninlaaland on
Aug 28, 2007 8:56 PM EDT
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Re: Jesus Christ, Joe
by joedobr on
Aug 28, 2007 9:44 PM EDT
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Re: Bestbuy
C.C. Sabathia is signed thru the 2008 season. Sabathia will want a contract of no less than 7 yrs. @ $17M per. Indians owner Larry Dolan will not sign a guaranteed deal with any player for longer than 4 years.
The Indians also lack in the RH power hitting OF position. In fact, only Grady Sizemore excels in the OF for the Indians. Now I ask, what team has RH hitting OF'ers available (See Baldelli, Dukes). What team has more money to spend than any other? (See Mudhens $24M payroll, major league low $27M operating expense).
2nd, Some of us need to realize that teams from other cities laugh at this organization. Sure players and other coaches say "They have great young talent," however, they've been saying this since day one is what everyone has to understand. To bring everyone back down to Earth, you'd better check out what Carl Crawford is saying. He's not planning on staying in Tampa Bay is the surefire feeling I'm getting. Now, if we can't take care of our own now, how can we later?
3rd, the 'Jays. They remind me of the Tigers after signing Pudge, Percival, Jones, Rogers, Ordonez. All became hurt beyond Pudge, but when it came together Michael Illich had an open wallet to deal with. This is something that will not happen under greedy Stuey. What did Toronto get? To go along with the oft injured (this season)Roy Halladay this season, A.J. Burnett,BJ Ryan, Troy Glaus. Have an outfield of Rios, Wells, Stairs/Lind/Johnson. Not to mention Vic Zambrano don's a 'Jays derby to boot.
With a healthy BJ Ryan next season to go along with Halladay/ Burnett/ and one other PT (prime time) starter, this team will be damn tough.
Then you look at the O's who have Leo Mazzone, baseballs Charlie Lau of pitching coaches tutoring Bedard, Cabrerra, AL R.O.Y. to be Jeremy Guthrie. Again, this team isn't shy about spending to get another arm.
Then we throw in the best staff in baseball with the Red Sox and NYY who we all know will always compete with their open checkbook, and the Mudhens will remain where they are until Stuey spends to bring in stars like Tejada, Vernon Wells, Arod, Manny, Glaus etc. It just doesn't happen in Tampa, and it won't unless ownership gets off the snied.
Look, I love the game of baseball. I loved the sweep of the A's. This team is ready to take it to the next level right now. IMO, ownership is holding it back with their lack of fiscal duty to this community and players. If ownership again refuses to spend this off season it will again fall further behind the 'Jays & O's as they are getting better by addition, not sitting on their hands this off season and last as the Mudhens have done.
"Due to budget cuts, the light at the end of the tunnel has been turned off."
--Stuey Sternberg
Roll Tribe ROLL!
by Mick 08' on Aug 26, 2007 8:11 PM EDT 0 recs
Re: Bestbuy
Plus we didn't sweep Oakland, we took 3 of 4, you should know this, as the pessimist of the site you have to stay on these things old Micky.
by R.J. Anderson on
Aug 26, 2007 8:19 PM EDT
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Let me ask you a few questions, Mick
- What is with your seeming obsession that causes you to discuss one topic and one topic only here, and that is to deride ownership and all of its believers in every post? You don't seem to take part in any other line of conversation, and you seem to actually steer existing ones toward the aforementioned line of argument.
- Mudhens? I don't get it. I'm assuming that you're attempting to associate the Devil Rays with a generic Triple A team, but I don't understand what about the Tigers' AAA team from Toledo screams the comparison.
- Are you actually a Devil Rays fan, seriously?
Let's try to keep this discussion civil, folks. That means no ethnic slurs, implied or direct, even if it is the Irish. Let's also extend that to references about sexual orientation, etc. etc. And Mick, you are more than welcome to express your opinion but I would ask that you do so in a more respectful and straightforward manner.
And for simplicity's sake, minimize the nicknames.
by Patrick L. Kennedy on Aug 26, 2007 8:23 PM EDT 0 recs
Re: Let me ask you a few questions, Mick
Excellent.
by R.J. Anderson on
Aug 26, 2007 8:36 PM EDT
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Re: Let me ask you a few questions, Mick
by nyyfaninlaaland on
Aug 27, 2007 3:05 AM EDT
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Re: Let me ask you a few questions, Mick
by nyyfaninlaaland on
Aug 27, 2007 3:21 AM EDT
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Stirring the pot
by R.J. Anderson on
Aug 27, 2007 2:47 PM EDT
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Re: Bestbuy
C.C. Sabathia? He's gone RJ. He's already stated he's testing the FA market after next season when his contract expires. Larry Dolan, Indians owner has lost every player when this (free agency) has happened. Look for Sabathia to be moved mid-season next year. Look for him in Dodger Blue as he's a California boy by 09'.
As for the, alright I'll say it; "Devil Rays" players, I do not chastise them beyond calling them as a whole, "Mudhens." This of course refers to them as a whole, Minor Leaguers. This is nopt an innaccurate statement as most of them are.
My beef is with ownership. Sternberg comes along, buys the team, pleas to the hearts of all Tampa fans and calls himself a baseball guy. Sternberg then states "He'll add 10% to payroll each year." He then begins dismantling the team and dumping payroll. Those are the facts.
Are the Devil Rays in a better postion now than they were in the past? Undoubtably. I also realize this means squat if he is not man enough to apologize to fans for his lies, starts to spend on star caliber pitching and up the middle defense, and brings in players fans want to see play, not minm. wage players at almost all positions.
I hate liars! I've seen lying owners before. Sternberg is following suit with being a cheap owner. We all realize if he sits on his wallet another season he'll lose all faith in fans in the bay area and the current D' Ray players. The worst thing that can happen is losing Crawford. If this happens, Kaz, Shields, Upton, and Young will follow Carl out the door. This is fact!
This is the season for Stuey to put up or feel the wrath of the Bay area fans.
You know my vote. SELL,SELL, SELL!
"Due to budget cuts, the light at the end of the tunnel has been turned off."
--Stuey Sternberg
by Mick 08' on Aug 27, 2007 9:32 PM EDT 0 recs
Just so we're clue
by R.J. Anderson on
Aug 28, 2007 2:46 PM EDT
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Re: Bestbuy
If the rays went out and spent 50 million this offseason would they be in a playoff race right now?
I want you to show me what the rays could have done to become a playoff team this year.
You have a salary cap of 80 million. This goes for everybody. If anyone can show me what the team could have done to be a playoff team this year I will never defend Sternberg again. Also why don't we make it a playoff team for the next 5 years since the owners are trying to produce a team that can produce for the long run
by Elgrandeplatano on Aug 29, 2007 12:11 AM EDT 0 recs
Re: Bestbuy
I can make a list of the 2008 free agents, I'd prefer you do your homework rather than me doing it for you.
Now, identify this teams weaknesses. That's the 1st thing we have to do. We don't have to agree with them, I'll speculate.
SS- This team needs a slick ass fielding SS. One with veteran leadership. One that's a winner through & through. Knowing Sternberg's budget and what we can get the most bang for the buck over the next 2-3 years I'd throw Omar Viszquel a 2 year deal with an opt. year. He'll cost $4M a season. A fan fav., an attraction for fans.
RP/CL- This team has to stockpile arms in the pen to compete. I may be wrong on a few of the guys I'll mention as they may have signed but I'd go after all of them. The list includes Joe Nathan, Mariano Rivera, Jason Isringhausen, Scott Linebrink.
SP - This team has to make a trade for pitching. If two quality arms are added with Shields & Kaz this team could do damage next season.
Colon, Smoltz, Schilling & Jennings I believe are all still available. All of these guys wouldn't cost an arm and a leg.
Getting creative and taking a chance:
C.C. Sabathia will be available. The Minor League system of the Mudhens has so much to throw at Cleveland they should be on the phone with GM Mark Shapiro day & night regarding C.C.
Next, Mike Hampton is healthy. Atl wants to deal him and will eat a good portion of his salary (half). He's a risk I'd take as I know for fact he's healthy. He's a local kid and will draw fans out from under the perverbial rock.
Now, let's look at next season.
Say Stuey's heart grows 10 sizes and he goes after Sabathia.
C.C. - $18M
Hampton $8M 1/2 salary
Nathan $9M
Colon $7M
Vizquel $4M
Now, would a rotation of:
1-Sabathia
2-Shields
3-Colon
4-Kazmir
5-Hampton
Would the SP be sufficient?
Throw all the rest of the Minor Leaguers and whatever's left in there and see what happens.
This is a young team that with proper ownership can win now.
Everyone and anyone can throw out ideas. Sure everyone will throw stones at any idea. It doesn't matter. The point is, the Mudhens should have started shopping last year, Stu was too damn cheap.
Peace!
by Mick 08' on Aug 29, 2007 6:26 PM EDT 0 recs
W...T...F
That's spending money just to spend money, that's unacceptable.
by R.J. Anderson on
Aug 29, 2007 7:02 PM EDT
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Re: W...T...F
This team needs and has to have some veteran leadership in order to take it to the next level. A short time fix of Colon/Hampton if both are healthy not only helps bring along the young guys, it shows Stuey has a pulse, and puts asses in empty seats.
Now, when you're speaking of signing players you're looking at play on the field alone. I don't. I'm also looking at their marketability to the fans and what they offer to the team.
If it doesn't work out for one or two seasons who honestly gives a rats ass? The Mudhens as they are now known could become the newly annointed "Rays," by next year and compete.
In business or any other endeavor a chance has to be made or taken. as Nike says, "JUST DO IT."
Now, I want to hear your explanation on "why" this organization has no chance landing C.C. Sabathia who I did interject about testing the free agent waters after next season.
After you're done with your speach I want you to hypothisize that Mark Cuban bought the Devil Rays after the last day of this season on to your comments about not landing C.C. under Greedy Stuey's lookout.
Who would land him and who wouldn't as owner is my question?
I believe the Mark Cuban question answers all about this greedy, tightwad, ownership the Mudhens now have.
Shit flows downstream. Fans at the Trop (or lack there of) don't want to stink up their feet with the load of bull Stuey offers.
It's all ownership!
"Due to budget cuts, the light at the end of the tunnel has been turned off."
Stuey Sternberg
by Mick 08' on
Aug 30, 2007 7:58 AM EDT
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Re: W...T...F
One of Schilling, Maddux, or trade for Javier Vazquez
A catcher like Damian Miller
A defensive middle infielder (McDonald, Vizquel, Iguchi)
Another pen arm or two.
As far as your "Who cares" if Hampton and Colon fall apart, um...ever hear of the Hit Show when we signed a fat ass in Alvarez and an injury bitten Guzman; Colon is a fat ass, Hampton is injury prone. Not to mention Colon sucks...yeah let's sign them both up for 10-15 million a year, who cares if they blow and people bitch about how we weren't smart when spending.
Why the Rays won't get Sabathia? Let's see here, the Indians will want the moon and some, we're not stupid enough to give up an entire farm system for him, and lastly they'll likely just sit on the two first rounders before trading him to anyone in the AL.
Also seriously since when the hell did Hampton or Colon become 1. Leaders and 2. Fan bringers. Neither are all that popular, good, or respected.
by R.J. Anderson on
Aug 30, 2007 2:05 PM EDT
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Re: Bestbuy
I'd go for F. Cordero at closer, try to trade for Edgar Renteria at SS (who could help down the road - miracle cure for Rocco anyone - and only signed for '08 + opt., giving Brignac time to show he's the man), go for a SP like Silva from the Twins (since a SS been added - I expect I'll hear from RJ shortly on how bad Renteria's defense is), I've already mentioned Linebrink elsewhere, and maybe a lefty like Mahay, Romero, or Trevor Miller (can he come back or is that bridge burned?). C could be tough. What's likely to be available shouldn't be too pricey - RJ's suggestion of Miller as veteran isn't meritless - but a trade might be a better option.
I think a rotation of Kaz, Shields, Silva (2 years plus option, but he might be this year's Ted Lilly since the field is so weak so that might not get it done), maybe another short term fix (K. Wells, Wolf, Tomko if not too pricey or more than 1 + opt.) or one of the AAA guys, then E-Jax followed by minors depth. Silva gives Davis and McGee (who look pretty close, might jump past the AAA guys) or someone else from the many candidates more time. Sorry, Mick, I think Colon's cooked, and Hampton just seems to have bad karma. But I'd go for CC in a heartbeat if it could be done somehow - 2 CC's on the same team, cool!
by nyyfaninlaaland on
Aug 29, 2007 7:07 PM EDT
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