In a surprising move, Tampa Bay Rays manager Joe Maddon announced this morning that he will start Scott Kazmir in Thursday’s Game 5 of the ALCS at Fenway Park.
http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/extras/extra_bases/2008/10/kazmir_will_sta.html
Well, this is interesting. I'm not sure how I feel about it. The huge positive is a potential Shields vs. Beckett game 6.
8 months ago
rglass44
109 comments
0 recs |
Comments
Not THAT surprising
Maddon had already let onto the press that he might do this. I’m not thrilled with it though. This means Shields doesn’t pitch until game 2 of the WS if we advance.
Vogt early, Vogt often.
by Brickhaus on
Oct 15, 2008 11:09 AM EDT
reply
actions
0 recs
Thats ok
That lines him up for Game 2 and 6 again.
Both would be at home
He would still be pitching twice. What does it matter if it’s 1 and 5 or 2 and 6
On question I have is….If Kaz pitches bad again tomorrow and we then win game 6.
Does Kaz pitch game 1 or does he go with Garza
by Sveet on
Oct 15, 2008 11:48 AM EDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
2 and 6 would both be at home
1 and 5 would be home and away. so Maddon’s probably paying the home/road splits game
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
by Sky Kalkman on
Oct 15, 2008 11:55 AM EDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
of course, if the rays win game five, then they can set up the WS rotation any way they damn please
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
by Sky Kalkman on
Oct 15, 2008 11:57 AM EDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
just heard on sportscenter
i don’t like it…but we’ll see what happens
by chromework on
Oct 15, 2008 11:11 AM EDT
reply
actions
0 recs
Heard it as well ...
Not particulary fond of the move I have learned not to question any moves anymore. They constantly prove to me why I am not in baseball everyday. If he wanted to shake things up in the rotation a bit … I would rather see David Price get the start tomorrow.
by PewterPirate55 on
Oct 15, 2008 11:16 AM EDT
reply
actions
0 recs
I would rather see David Price get the start tomorrow.
Not me. I’d rather have him poised and ready in the BP. That way he would only have to 3-4 innings max.
by rglass44 on
Oct 15, 2008 11:23 AM EDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
what's the rationale?
keep Shields at home? hope Kazmir with short rest is better than Game 2 Kazmir?
how about just having Sonnanstine start game 5, 6, and 7?
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
by Sky Kalkman on
Oct 15, 2008 11:18 AM EDT
reply
actions
0 recs
Kaz wont be on short rest
He started Saturday; he’ll be on the full four days’ of rest
by TBdiehard on
Oct 15, 2008 11:20 AM EDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
good call
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
by Sky Kalkman on
Oct 15, 2008 11:28 AM EDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Rationale
Every post season game Kaz has started there has been an off-day the next day. Maddon does not trust that Kaz can go 5 innings and if he can’t the bullpen gets heavy use. Imagine if the Red Sox win game 5 vs Shields. The Rays head home and Kaz goes 4 2/3 in a close game 6. Bullpen will be used heavily and if Rays lose that game have to come back next night for game 7 with a bp that pitched 4 1/3 the night before.
by K-Rock on
Oct 15, 2008 1:14 PM EDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
I heard on First Take (yeah, I know)
That Maddon cited Doug Eddings being behind the plate as the reason. Take that for what it’s worth.
by steve-o1285 on
Oct 15, 2008 11:28 AM EDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
it darrell cousins not eddings
when you think .500 is the best a team can do and they are currently playing in the ALCS for a chance to advance to the WS, you have to stop and think that the future of that team is going to be amazing. GO TB RAYS!
by RaysOfHope on
Oct 16, 2008 12:21 AM EDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Yes
Shields at home, facing someone he’s more likely to beat. Seems like playing the odds to me. With only one game left to win, have your best starter face off against their worst starter, in the most favorable conditions for that starter.
Vogt early, Vogt often.
by Brickhaus on
Oct 15, 2008 11:44 AM EDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Whats the rational for not doing this?
Great move.
We don’t need to win 3 games. We just need to win 1 out of 3 games.
Shields vs Dice K in Fenway would be tough.
Then you would have Kaz vs Beckett. Who knows whats going to happen there?
Then Garza v Lester. It would be tough for us to beat Lester 2 times in a row.
Now Shields will be at home where he pitches much better. Kaz is pitching in Fenway where he has pitched pretty good. No one is on short rest.
by Sveet on
Oct 15, 2008 11:28 AM EDT
reply
actions
0 recs
I just don't like the idea of managing "not to lose"
That has disaster written all over it
Certainties in Life: Death, Taxes, and Gabe Gross coming through in the ninth
by JMB on
Oct 15, 2008 11:43 AM EDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
I don't think it's managing not to lose
First, you really have to give Kaz one more shot to see if he can put together a good game. He hasn’t done it yet in the playoffs and he’s been thumped in 3 of his last five starts dating back to the end of the season, and in reality he had only one really solid start, his 2nd to last start of the season in Minnesota; so he’s been shaky for 3 straight.
Secondly, the front and middle of our bullpen is fully rested. Let’s say Kaz only lasts 3 innings and gives up 2 or 3 runs. You’ve got Balfour who can go for 1, Howell who can go for at least 2 and possibly 3, Price who can go for even more than that, and even Wheeler had a real nice 3 and a third. Our bullpen can keep the Sox bats at bay again tomorrow, the Rays just need to get to Dice-K and not let him pitch another ‘ugly masterpiece’.
by kericr on
Oct 15, 2008 11:50 AM EDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Point taken
i just don’t like the idea of giving the Sux any faint glimmer of hope. I want us to end this shit ASAP.
Certainties in Life: Death, Taxes, and Gabe Gross coming through in the ninth
by JMB on
Oct 15, 2008 11:54 AM EDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
I understand that.
To which I respond: Jon Lester.
by kericr on
Oct 15, 2008 11:56 AM EDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
True
But do we really want to test that twice in a series?
Certainties in Life: Death, Taxes, and Gabe Gross coming through in the ninth
by JMB on
Oct 15, 2008 11:58 AM EDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
No, what I meant was
Lester was supposed to be a guaranteed loss. There’s no guarantee that Shields is going to be a win no matter who he faces.
by kericr on
Oct 15, 2008 1:45 PM EDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
This
If we pitch Shields and lose game 5, that “faint glimmer of hope” turns into OMG WE R GONNA WIN!!!
by steve-o1285 on
Oct 15, 2008 1:55 PM EDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Lester pitched Monday
He’d be ready to go against Shields on Saturday. It would most likely be Shields and Lester in 6 with Garza and Beckett in 7.
by rayweaver on
Oct 15, 2008 12:52 PM EDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
This actually makes everything make even more sense
If Shields lost game 5, we would have Kaz up against Lester in 6. Would anyone want that to happen?!?! The chances would greatly increase that this thing would go to 7 games in that case.
by rayweaver on
Oct 15, 2008 12:55 PM EDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
people are making too many assumption about winning/losing matchups
as the team ahead, sure, i’d rather line up our best pitcher against their worst. but it’s not really that much of an advantage. having pitchers throw where they’re comfortable and having the ability to empty the bullpen with Kaz are both bigger advantages.
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
by Sky Kalkman on
Oct 15, 2008 1:12 PM EDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Kaz wants redemption.
Kaz is going to kick ass.
by floridaroar on
Oct 15, 2008 11:33 AM EDT
reply
actions
0 recs
What's funny is ...
… a lot of Red Sox fans take this as a sign the Rays think the ALCS is over and they’re setting the rotation for the World Series. I think it’s a sign of respect.
Had Shields lost a Game 5, who would feel totally comfortable with the prospect of a shaky Kaz in 6 and then Lester in 7. This series is not over. And I think the move shows that Maddon is still playing defensively, trying to set up the best possible matchups to make sure we get at least one win. I think Kazmir vs. Dice-K and then Beckett vs. Shields does that.
And if Kaz can win Game 5, then we’re really golden.
by TBdiehard on
Oct 15, 2008 11:37 AM EDT
reply
actions
0 recs
It is definitely a sign of respect
except for Josh Beckett. We are pretty much telling him he sucks ass
by Sveet on
Oct 15, 2008 11:54 AM EDT
up
reply
actions
1 recs
I'm not so sure about this
I’d prefer to start Shields in Game 5 and go for the jugular. DON’T let these fuckers off the mat.
Certainties in Life: Death, Taxes, and Gabe Gross coming through in the ninth
by JMB on
Oct 15, 2008 11:39 AM EDT
reply
actions
0 recs
Hard to question Maddon at this point
I was tired of hearing the announcers talk all last night about how Lester & Beckett wanted a 2nd chance….how about Shields? I was happy to have him in game 5.
But, after reading that article with Shields ERA in Fenway, and Kaz & the ump for game 6…I like it.
Hopefully, Kaz is loose and ready tomorrow night…and if not, Mr Price should be rested and ready to go. Let’s celebrate in Boston.
by TallMatt on
Oct 15, 2008 11:40 AM EDT
reply
actions
0 recs
Not only Price
Two days off for Howell, three for Balfour and Wheeler. The bullpen is totally rested. And with another game off in between 5 and 6, they’ll have ANOTHER day to recover.
Yet another reason I like the move. Maximizes the possibilites.
by TBdiehard on
Oct 15, 2008 11:42 AM EDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
forgot about this
just another reason why this move make perfect sense
by Sveet on
Oct 15, 2008 11:44 AM EDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Love this move
For many of the reasons listed above: Shields is far more consistent at the Trop; our bullpen is fully rested, and if Kazmir self-destructs, we have plenty of options. Let’s just hope that our bats continue to shine and we can expose Dice-K. The way we’re hitting right now combined with the number of mistakes he makes per game is making me feel pretty good about this matchup.
by NY Tyler on
Oct 15, 2008 11:52 AM EDT
reply
actions
0 recs
i like the move
Kaz has pitched well at Fenway this year, Shields has pitched well at the Trop. Maddon is going with the better match-up….which is unconventional because of how bad Kaz has been lately, but Maddon has been doing unconventional all season long…..why stop now? With Dice-K on the mound, it might not really matter who we have if he pitches like he did in Game 1. Kaz could dominate as well, and we might wrap it up in Boston. If not, I feel better with Shields pitching at home.
by free hotdogs on
Oct 15, 2008 11:54 AM EDT
reply
actions
0 recs
I think this is good
1- Takes pressure of a near ‘must Game 6’ at home OFF Kaz
2- Takes advantage of Shields’ superb home record
by sternfan1 on
Oct 15, 2008 11:56 AM EDT
reply
actions
0 recs
Side note: Does anyone have a problem with putting Sonny in for Game 7 (god forbid)?
Garza’s emotions may get the best of him in a Game 7
by ReasonableDoubt on
Oct 15, 2008 11:59 AM EDT
reply
actions
0 recs
The only reason I don't like this move:
Having to listen to the jackass announcers call him “Big Game James” about a million more times. Seriously – where did this nickname come from, and what did we do to deserve it?
by NY Tyler on
Oct 15, 2008 12:00 PM EDT
reply
actions
0 recs
I'm confused
How does the move change the amount of times he is called “big game james”
by Sveet on
Oct 15, 2008 12:02 PM EDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Assuming we lose Game 5 - sorry
Should have been more clear there. If We go back to Tampa up 3-2 and Shields is starting, it’s going to get nauseating listening to them continue to use that nickname.
by NY Tyler on
Oct 15, 2008 12:05 PM EDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
I guess, the moral is
I just hate whoever came up with that moniker, and wish it would go away. Watching Shields pitch has been a joy, and having to hear that over and over is starting to wear on me.
by NY Tyler on
Oct 15, 2008 12:06 PM EDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
It's a fairly logical move
if Maddon conveyed it properly to the parties involved, i’m sure every one’s on board with it
by sternfan1 on
Oct 15, 2008 12:05 PM EDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
I love it
Keeps Kaz away from the ump he’s had trouble with
He’s had success at Fenway
Shields has been rocked up there lately
I feel better about Shields and Garza for 6 and 7 if necessary than I do having Kaz go in Game 6.
Kaz for Game 5 with Price on ready 5 alert
by Jason Collette on
Oct 15, 2008 12:14 PM EDT
reply
actions
0 recs
and we can ride the bullpen with a day off after game 5.
by walkoffwalk on
Oct 15, 2008 12:48 PM EDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
i think this is as good a reason as any to pitch Kaz in game 5
and is probably why Daisuke got the game 5 nod for the Sox
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
by Sky Kalkman on
Oct 15, 2008 12:55 PM EDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
over/under for number of walks tomorrow night?
between Kaz and Dice-K, I put it at 14.5
by AndrewG on
Oct 15, 2008 12:28 PM EDT
reply
actions
0 recs
If it works, it's a great move. If not, it was a fatal mistake.
That’s the way the commentators will see it. I’m personally for it, and was thinking we should do it before Maddon ever mentioned the move. The fact is, Kazmir in the past has handled the road better than Shields. He’s not much more likely to have a great start at the Trop than at Fenway, so if it’s already a huge gamble with Kaz, there’s no reason to make it a gamble with Shields when he is much more in command at home. Plus, I don’t like umps making comments to the press about pitchers. You can’t trust them to be impartial later.
by Albertrayon on
Oct 15, 2008 12:30 PM EDT
reply
actions
0 recs
Francona purposely put Lester in Game 3 instead of Game 2
because of his dominance at home this year. It’s not so different in this case. Maddon has gone on record that this is about home/road splits and their performances at Fenway..
by rayweaver on
Oct 15, 2008 12:47 PM EDT
reply
actions
0 recs
I like Shields vs
Beckett, why waste him against Dice K?
by Gator80 on
Oct 15, 2008 12:55 PM EDT
reply
actions
0 recs
Lester would be ready on full rest for Game 6 vs. Shields
The Sox would probably go with him instead of Beckett.
by rayweaver on
Oct 15, 2008 12:57 PM EDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Because every game is a must-win for the Sawx.
And Beckett has sucked this postseason.
Carlos and Victor Zambrano have exactly the same number of career postseason wins. Who would have thought?
by Blicks on
Oct 15, 2008 1:00 PM EDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
So we could lose game 7 instead of game 6.
Beckett still has to pitch, and he has given no indications that he can do so effectively.
"It's just a tiny little nick, but it hurts when I get champagne in there."
- Jason Bay, on getting spiked scoring the winning run in ALDS Game Four.
by 0157H7 on
Oct 15, 2008 1:01 PM EDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Are you asking why they would use Lester on full rest
instead of Mr.-inconsistent-as-of-late-Beckett?
by rayweaver on
Oct 15, 2008 1:02 PM EDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
it's not instead. they both have to pitch
by walkoffwalk on
Oct 15, 2008 1:06 PM EDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Only if it goes to game 7.
If the Rays win in game 6, the guy slated for game 7 doesn’t pitch, at least not in a game against the Rays because the series will be over. The Red Sox will use their best guy when they can to avoid elmination, and that will be Lester in game 6 if it gets that far. Only if it gets to game 7 will you see Beckett again this series, unless Francona has more faith in him than I do.
by rayweaver on
Oct 15, 2008 1:51 PM EDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
this isn't smart, though
if you’re the Sox, you shouldn’t reduce your chances of winning game 7 just to increase your chances of winning game 6. you have to win them both. losing in 7 might be “better” somehow than losing in 6, but you have to plan a strategy that gives you the best chance of winning both games.
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
by Sky Kalkman on
Oct 15, 2008 2:41 PM EDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
and it's a panic move. those usually don't work out. i think you gotta stick with your guys.
by walkoffwalk on
Oct 15, 2008 2:46 PM EDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
It's only a panic move if you go to your best guy
even if he’s going on short rest.
by rayweaver on
Oct 15, 2008 2:57 PM EDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
and...i do like kaz pitching with a 3-1 lead than a 3-2 lead....
by walkoffwalk on
Oct 15, 2008 1:12 PM EDT
reply
actions
0 recs
I just wanted to say that
Christina predicted this before the series.
Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind.
by Sandy Kazmir on
Oct 15, 2008 1:44 PM EDT
reply
actions
0 recs
To quote Orgazmo, "Now you're a man!"
Oh wait, no she isn’t.
by kericr on
Oct 15, 2008 1:47 PM EDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
I like this
Kaz can’t just keep being terrible can he? I hope not
Shields is MUCH better at home if we need a game 6 and should beat Beckett easily.
As someone mentioned, the only problem I have with it is if we need a game 6, Shields can’t game 1.
Question….. Lester still scares me and why wouldn’t he go in game 6?
by joeybw on
Oct 15, 2008 1:48 PM EDT
reply
actions
0 recs
Answer...
See above comments I made. Lester will be ready to go in game 6 on regular rest if they want to use him.
by rayweaver on
Oct 15, 2008 1:53 PM EDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
unless he can pitch games 6 and 7, what difference does it make?
by walkoffwalk on
Oct 15, 2008 1:58 PM EDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
This is why it matters, once again...
If the Rays win in game 6, the guy slated for game 7 doesn’t pitch, at least not in a game against the Rays because the series will be over. THERE WILL BE NO GAME 7 IN THIS SCENARIO. The Red Sox will use their best guy when they can to avoid elmination, and that will be Lester in game 6 if it gets that far. Only if it gets to game 7 will you see Beckett again this series, unless Francona has more faith in him than I do.
My turn for questions…Who is the best Red Sox pitcher available for Game 6? Why would you leave your best available pitcher on the bench in an elimination game where your team is the one facing elimination? Why? Enlighten me, please.
by rayweaver on
Oct 15, 2008 2:24 PM EDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
I'm not saying they won't move up Lester
but they are both elimination games. They have to win both. Beckett and Lester are each going to have to pitch one game. What does it matter if it is game 6 or game 7? The goal isn’t to make the series go 7 games. The goal is to win the series
by Sveet on
Oct 15, 2008 2:30 PM EDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
How does Lester pitch in game 7
if Beckett loses game 6? The goal is to make it to game 7 for the Red Sox right now. You worry about what happens once you get there when you’re in their position. If Beckett does what he did in game 2 and Shields does what he did in game 1, there is no game 7. No lefthanded pitcher John Lester to face. As a Rays fan, I want to see Beckett go in game 6 on the road against Shields if it gets to that point. In my opinion, the odds are better for Shields to beat Beckett than Lester at this point. Aside from the brief trouble in game 3, Lester has been great. He is the best shot for the Red Sox to keep things going beyond game 6. If they go with Beckett in game 6, they run the risk of him getting knocked out early and blowing out the bullpen like in game 2, which means if it gets to game 7, Lester better be at his best because he may not have much bullpen help.
by rayweaver on
Oct 15, 2008 3:35 PM EDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Who is the Rays...
best available pitcher for Game 5?
Boom. Outta Here.
by WillisDaddy on
Oct 15, 2008 4:42 PM EDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Good move
See no problem with it. Also Cousins and Kazmir may not get along. I would rather do this, knowing you have an off day and the team has a “parachute” in that off day if Kaz falters. I believe momentum is only as good as the next day’s pitcher. I think Dice-K will get roughed up to a degree. If Kaz can be halfway respectable, the Rays should be able to close this out.
Joe
by joedobr on
Oct 15, 2008 1:56 PM EDT
reply
actions
0 recs
Dice-K has been 'good' against the Rays all year
And by ‘good’ I mean lucky as hell. They gotta get to him sooner or later. I think they need to do the exact opposite they did to Wake and see if it works (in other words, take EVERYTHING). If they haven’t put something together by the third inning or so, they need to start working his pitch count up as quickly as possible and hope they can start working the Sox bullpen in the 5th. If Dice-K goes 7 again, our chances for game 5 don’t look that good.
by kericr on
Oct 15, 2008 2:10 PM EDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Dice-K gave up 7 runs in the first inning at Fenway earlier this year
He is not untouchable.
Lay off the stadium, Iwamura
by Orlando Rays on
Oct 15, 2008 2:20 PM EDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
who cares if this doesn't allow Shields to go Game 1 of WS?
… I’d be fine sending Garza or Sonny out there… or Price… we are a versatile and resilient team
by daveh33 on
Oct 15, 2008 2:29 PM EDT
reply
actions
0 recs
Fur, while baller, does not increase speed.
by R.J. Anderson on
Oct 15, 2008 2:30 PM EDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
wait, did i say this? i did didn't i
was it last gdt? i may have seemed drunk but i was just really tired
by daveh33 on
Oct 15, 2008 4:51 PM EDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Papelbon is def. pitching at least 2 innings tomorrow if Sox are ahead.
by walkoffwalk on
Oct 15, 2008 2:37 PM EDT
reply
actions
0 recs
And we kick his ass in the second of those innings.
Like we have at Fenway this year.
Lay off the stadium, Iwamura
by Orlando Rays on
Oct 15, 2008 3:06 PM EDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
In favor of move
Kaz is better at Fenway than Shields and it takes the pressure off of him, Game 5 pressure < Game 6 pressure. Joe is sending a message to Kaz to step up usually when he does that the players respond. IF we win Game 5 the rotation sets up for the WS. IF we lose we got Shields and Garza Game 6 and 7 at home. It gives Shields another day of rest. On the surface it looks like playing for game 6, but I don’t buy that.
by atlantaray on
Oct 15, 2008 5:54 PM EDT
reply
actions
0 recs
This increases our chances at winning
That is all that matters. We could lose no matter who we start or we could win no matter who we start. This gives us the best chance.
This is how I see it:
Kaz v Dice K-Sox 65-Rays 35
Shields v Beckett-Sox 25% Rays 75%
Garza v Lester-Sox 50% Rays 50%
or
Shields v Dice K-Sox 45% Rays 55%
Beckett v Kazmir-Rays 45% Sox 55%
Garza v Lester-Sox 50% Rays 50%
We take a hit in Game 5 to get a huge advantage in Game 6. Either way the odds of us losing three in a row is pretty slim.
If we needed all 3, or even 2 of 3 then this isn’t really the move. Since we only need ONE of three this is the correct move.
by matthan on
Oct 15, 2008 7:37 PM EDT
reply
actions
0 recs
umm... ur giving dice k too much credit
and taking away too much for josh beckett.
As a yankee fan i remember the yanks vs. the sox in 2004 , we LIT up curt schilling his first start in the ALCS… and then he was lights out his 2nd start (also dealing with an injury)… dont count on beckett automatically sucking
Check out my baseball analysis blog FANalytics
by jbluestone on
Oct 15, 2008 10:48 PM EDT
reply
actions
0 recs
just to add to this
Dice K has started 6 postseason games now, and has 31.2 ip, thats basically 5 innings per game, and the only time he went more then 5.1 ip in the postseason. I realize that was the most recent start, but this is a guy who basically averaged 5.2 ip per start this year, so I am not too confident in seeing a repeat of his game 1 start, which I still attribute to an anxious and pressing lineup that has calmed down and is very confident now.
Check out my baseball analysis blog FANalytics
by jbluestone on
Oct 15, 2008 10:54 PM EDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs














