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Manny Stiles' ALCS Breakdown: Assumptions vs. Realities a.k.a. Red Sox vs. Rays

 

Tampa Bay Rays Tampa Bay Rays Boston Red Sox Boston Red Sox

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The 2008 ALCS has already been made out to be a Classic Showdown. Words like “magical”, “experience” and “intangibles” are being tossed around like cans of Milwaukee’s Best at a frat party. None of these words mean anything in context of reality. Many people are overlooking the obviousness of this series –these two teams have been “fighting” all season. Not just on the field but in the AL East standings. There will be few surprises in this series. By all accounts the Rays won all of the minor battles – the scuffle, the Division and the season series 10-8, but all of that gets thrown out the window and the War for AL Supremacy begins.

Don’t kid yourself, these two teams know each other VERY well and despite public perception that the defending champs have an advantage with their “experience”, that won’t matter in this series. The Rays have the “experience” of winning against the Red Sox when they’ve needed to – in September, when the Rays won 4 of 6 head to head games and were without key players Evan Longoria, Carl Crawford and B.J. Upton as the Red Sox were playing their best baseball of the season.

Now the Rays are fully healthy and ready to throw the kitchen sink at their division rivals as the Red Sox have questions concerning their team. Mike Lowell is out for the series and that changes the dynamic of the Red Sox. Josh Beckett is coming off his shortest postseason outing of his career and has been shaky for the past month. Luckily for the Red Sox, other players are peaking at the right time.

A huge factor in this series is Home Field Advantage. Red Sox advocates will wish that fact away by stating HFA didn’t help the Angels, but the Rays are clearly dominate at home. They swept the Red Sox at home twice. They had the best home record in baseball since the juggernaut ’98 Yankees and a ridiculous 23-2 record at home with crowds over 30,000. Indeed, all of the crowds – despite the ignorant speculation and disregard of understanding the Tampa-St. Petersburg demographics - at Tropicana Field will be sold out for the ALCS.

The Rays are trying to complete the Sox Sweep (beating the White and Red Sox) and the Red Sox are hoping their formula of trading away their big name player mid-season will net them another ring (See: Nomar Garciaparra, 2004)

There’s many ways to look at this series… Guessing, numerology and assumptions aside – although I will likely have Sports Shaman do a Tarot reading for this one) let’s look at reality, position by position and somewhat in depth.

 

Breaking down each position:

1B:

Carlos Pena: One of the finest fielding first baseman in the game. Plus power and although he strikes out a bunch and pulls most everything, he is a big run producer. Furthermore, he is a supreme optimist and thoroughly enjoys playing for the Rays. He is a Clubhouse leader and always smiles, which is why I call him “Cheese” – he always looks ready for a picture opportunity.

Mark Kotsay: Kotsay was a waiver wire addition to the Red Sox late in the season. He is 32 going on 42 and hasn’t done much with his bat and may very well end up yielding some time at first to Big Papi which will show how much the Lowell injury hurts this team.


Advantage: It’s not even close. With Lowell out, moving Youkilis to third Kotsay is serviceable at best as an infielder and clearly he’s no match to Youk, Pena or Lowell with the stick. Pena is quietly one of the best 1B in the game two years removed from getting released by the Red Sox.

Rays 9 – 6

 

 

2B:

Dustin Pedroia: Scrappy personified, he takes advantage of his tiny strike zone and uses the Green Monster to his advantage as evidenced by his AL leading 54 doubles. He was a starting All-Star and even though he’s Boston’s smallest player in stature, he is their biggest player in significance. As Dustin Pedroia goes, so do the Red Sox. He led the AL in hits and runs scored. He has started the 2008 playoffs fairly cold and if the Rays keep him off the bases the Red Sox will have trouble in this series.

Akinori Iwamura]: Aki has been the leadoff hitter, setting the table for the Rays and disrupting pitchers on the basepaths. He has been outstanding on defense taking to second like a worm to dirt. His unorthodox style has served him well much like Ichiro's has done for him. Aki has amazing footwork and balance and is the guy responsible for the mohawk movement. Aki is well liked by his teammates and is a fan favorite.

Advantage: Not as far apart as you’d think. Pedroia had a career season and is in the MVP talk, but Aki is a better fielder, a better, faster baserunner and considering it was his first season playing second base he was fairly outstanding. Perhaps the most important position for both teams, these guys make their teams go!

Red Sox 10 – 8

 

SS:

Jason Bartlett: Many Rays players call JB the team MVP. Surely the addition of Bartlett in the Delmon Young for Matt Garza trade solidified the Rays weakest position, shortstop. Originally it appeared that Bartlett was merely keeping the position warm until prospect Reid Brignac was ready to take over. Bartlett’s effect on the team’s overall defense has been quite astounding. He’s not going to win a Silver Slugger in his career but his ability to get crucial hits when needed has been remarkable. His fielding prowess – despite 16 errors on the season - has enabled the Rays to reverse what was one of the historically bad fielding teams in baseball history last season into one of the top ten defensive teams in the game.


Jed Lowrie: 24 year old rookie (and 2007 Arizona Fall League alum) has joined the Pedroia train as this year’s player who is exceeding realistic expectations. He had a hot stick for the Sox in the ALDS. His range and arm are adequate as his only two errors this season came as he filled in at third base. He’s still a rookie and most likely isn’t a permanent solution at short for the Big Spender Red Sox for the long term. Shortstop has been a revolving door for the Red Sox since Nomar was shipped out of Boston.


Advantage: Lowrie is still a rookie. He’s roster fodder and you’d think a team with a $100+ million payroll would have more experience in the middle infield. Lowrie is a weak spot on the Red Sox, for sure. Anything Bartlett adds with the bat is a cherry on top.

Rays 8-6

 

3B:

Evan Longoria: The Rays best rookie to date (and another 2007 Arizona Fall League alum) was not only an All-Star but pretty much is assured of the Rookie of the Year award, despite not starting the season with the Big League club and also missing nearly a month due to a wrist injury after getting hit by a pitch. He is a supreme fielder and a heady base runner. Obviously, he has plus power and is also a doubles and run producing machine. Longlorious is unflappable and is already looked to as a team leader due to his calm confidence, superior talent and general likeability.

Kevin Youkilis: He made a case for himself as an MVP candidate this year and started the All-Star game at first base. .312 – 29 – 115 is a damned fine season and Youk is not only a fan favorite but also a clubhouse leader. It seemed that the Red Sox brass deemed him less dispensable than Manny Ramirez as their tiffs has something to do with Ramirez’s mid-season departure, for sure.


Advantage: Longoria is the best young third baseman in the game and might be an MVP several times before his career is over. Some people (mostly me) say that Longoria is the new Mike Schmidt. Youkilis at third isn’t a bad thing but he’s perhaps the best defensive first baseman in the game, at third he’s merely “good”. The edge goes to Longoria simply because

Rays 10 – 9

 

C:

Dioner Navarro: A 2008 All-Star for the first time and another Rays player that could be considered as team MVP. He hit a career high .295 which led the team and has established himself as one of the premier catchers in the American League. His handling of the pitching staff has been a key ingredient in the Rays’ success this year.

Jason Varitek: “Tek” has been on the downward plunge since 2005 offensively. For the first half of 2008, he was downright putrid. He still manages his pitching staff excellently but it’s obvious his days behind the dish are dwindling. Sure he has “experience” but will that overcome the wear and tear of several lengthy seasons behind the dish. How much more does he have left?


Advantage: Both are switch hitters, both are defensively proficient although Navarro threw out 38% runners and Varitek only 22% this season and both are emotional leaders of their team. Varitek is 36 and has a little more power and Navarro is 24 years old and is clearly a better player at this stage –who would you rather have?

Rays 9 – 8 (that’s generous for Varitek at this point)

 

LF:

Carl Crawford: Still one of the fastest and naturally gifted athletes on the planet, Crawford had a season that he had never had before; he spent a lot of time off the fied as his teammates picked up the slack. He returned from hand surgery just in time to get himself on the playoff roster – he wouldn’t miss the Rays first postseason for anything. Perhaps the best leftfielder in the game when healthy, the Rays have found a way to win without him and will only benefit more from having him. He should get healthier as the playoffs wear on and he’s definitely fresh-legged for the series.


Jason Bay: Perhaps the most under-rated player in the game when he was in Pittsburgh, the Red Sox traded for him for two reasons; 1) to get something in return after they decided to expedite the Manny trade and 2) they knew the Rays had their eyes on him. Rumors around a Bay to the Bay deal were rampant since Spring Training and the Rays had more than enough pieces to make a deal but the Red Sox swooped in and stole away one of the finest fundamentally sound players in the game. Bay always hustles, always backs up other positions and plays his heart out. He has plus power and might actually be the Red Sox best position player, though the trendy Sox fans don’t seem to recognize his skill.


Advantage: I’m calling this one a tie. Crawford is the better player due to his otherworldly athleticism, but he is still not himself after a season of hand, knee and hamstring injuries. He is superior defensively and on the bases, but Bay is as good as they get with his all-around baseball skills, effort and focus.


Tie 10-10

 

CF:

B.J. Upton: People were sleeping on Melvin Emmanuel Upton this year despite the fact that he was a 20-20 player last season. He was critiqued for a perceived lack of hustle, but in fact he is so gifted physically that everything he does simply looks too easy. He is wiry and appears thin but he is country strong. His hands are as amazing as his feet. Keep in mind that even though B.J. has been in the majors for four seasons already, he just turned 24 in August. He has some refining to do as a player but the sky is the limit for him as he will only get better. The reports of his immaturity are vastly overstated as he is as fine a gentleman as I have met in the game. His pedigree starts with his Dad who was a decorated policeman and NCAA basketball referee. B.J. has the respect of his teammates and is one of manager Joe Maddon’s favorite players. They have a close bond indicated by Upton’s insistence that Maddon join the team movement and get a Mohawk too.


Jacoby Ellsbury/Coco Crisp: Speed and not much else. Ellsbury might have led the league in stolen bases this year by six over Upton but he doesn’t exude Upton’s strength and has NOWHERE near the arm that Upton does in the outfield. Ellsbury made a lot of diving catches this year that Upton didn’t because B.J. gets a great jump on balls hit to him and gets to the spot to make those same difficult catches easy.

Crisp is a piece of dogcrap and a defiler of the ethics of the game. He plays dirty and disrespects the game with his antics. He is fast and a capable fielder and has a better arm than Ellsbury (whose arm makes Johnny Damon seem like Roberto Clemente)


Advantage: This matchup is perhaps the biggest assumption of them all. People know Ellsbury’s name but B.J. is the superior player and despite the numbers, it’s really not that close. If Upton didn’t open eyes with his two HR performance in game 4 of the ALDS or his laser of an arm, nothing will. People will probably overlook him forever but he’s one of the best skilled outfielders in baseball. His extreme speed and cannon arm allow him to play a shallower centerfield than any CF in the game. His training as an infielder increased his overall baseball awareness. Ellsbury and Crisp are quality players but neither is a superstar and neither will ever be.

Rays 9 - 8

 

RF:

J.D. Drew: A player that seemed destined for greatness before he decided to spurn the Phillies and stuck it out in the Independent Northern League before getting drafted again by the Cardinals. A vagabond perhaps due to his cactus-like personality, there’s no doubt he should have been a great player with his tools. He has a great batting eye and draws walks easily. He’s still a pretty damned good player when healthy – which seems to be rarely. He’s played more than 135 games in a season in only 3 of his 11 years in the bigs. Will his back hold up? Will his lack of emotion hinder his teammates? This guy is more questions than answers.


Gabe Gross: If you want to talk “intangibles”, THIS GUY has them. He has been disgustingly good at getting the big hit at the right moment. He’s had several walk-off hits this season and he’s made amazing catches at the right moments. He doesn’t seem to play until the 8th inning or later. Despite his pedestrian season totals, he’s been as huge for the Rays as anybody. He’s a very smart player and a hell of an athlete – he was a college quarterback just like his manager Joe Maddon.

Advantage: Drew is far and away the superior player in this matchup but I have the feeling that Gross will continue his streak of coming up big when it’s needed and Drew will revert to form in shrinking in the spotlight.

Red Sox 9 - 6

 

DH:

David Ortiz: Perhaps once the most feared lefthanded hitter in the game and certainly a prime time performer Big Papi took a dip this season due to a wrist injury. Ortiz will see a lot of the “Bonds shift” a defensive alignment first unveiled on the world by Joe Maddon when he was a bench coach for the Angels in the 2002 World Series. Ortiz can flat out hit, but unfortunately, that’s ALL he can do. He is frozen molasses on the basepaths and a spastic hatchetman with the glove. He is the heart and soul of the team but you can’t help but wonder how much he’ll miss the protection of Manny Ramirez behind him in the lineup during this series. If Kotsay can’t get going at the plate, Ortiz might be relegated to donning the leather.


Cliff Floyd: One of the purest line drive hitters in baseball the last two decades, people look at his HR totals and think he doesn’t have pop. He kills outfield walls with his line shots and typically is a pull hitter but can use the whole field. He also has a knack of getting go-ahead RBI in tie game situations. He was brought to the Rays to mentor Carl Crawford and B.J. Upton and provide leadership in the locker room in leading by example and by flashing his World Series ring. He’s the older brother of the team and has been a vital cog in the team’s success despite missing half the season to a knee injury. More than likely he’ll only DH against righties and Rocco Baldelli will DH against lefties.


Advantage: Both players have had lengthy careers and seen it all in the game. Ortiz is the superior player but age and injury is catching up to him. Not having Manny behind him has been the bigger explanation in his lessened effectiveness. Pitchers aren’t afraid to attack him like in the past. Floyd is great when he’s healthy and one of the smarter players in the game but it seems he’s always fighting a nagging affliction. Both players aren’t what they used to be but still better than most DHs.

Red Sox 10 – 8

 

Bench Players:

Rays: OF Rocco Baldelli, OF/3B Eric Hinske, IF Willy Aybar, IF/OF Ben Zobrist, OF Fernando Perez, C Michel Hernandez

Baldelli’s return should have been the “feel good” story of 2008 but he’s still contending with his mitochondrial disorder and the fatigue it produces. He is still a very talented ballplayer. Hinske carried the Rays while Pena was ailing. Aybar carried the Rays when Longoria was hurt. Fernando Perez might be the fastest Ray of them all and has had a blessed trime in the majors. Zobrist started at 4 different positions this season and is the kind of utility player Jo Maddon loves.


Red Sox: 1B Sean Casey, IF Alex Cora, C David Ross, C Kevin Cash, IF Gil Velazquez

“The Mayor” is a glove at first and little else, Alex Cora is a coach in uniform, David Ross’ career highlight will always be his first HR – he hit it off Mark Grace in a blowout - Kevin Cash is barely a major leaguer and who is Gil Velazquez?? The Red Sox bench is thin and even one injury to a starter will crush the team.


Advantage: The Lowell injury and the fact that the Red Sox are carrying three catchers clearly limits their options. None of these guys (including Crisp) will strike fear in the Rays. The Rays bench has been outstanding all season long. Baldelli, Aybar and Hinske can all start and Zobrist can play any position on the field.


Rays 9 - 6

 

Pitchers:

The Rays staff had the 3rd best ERA in MLB with a 3.82. The Red Sox were ninth in baseball at 4.01.

Starting Pitching:

Game One:

James Shields: Shields is dominant in the Trop. He is a younger, more finesse version of Curt Schilling. He attacks and challenges hitters and comes at them with a wide array of pitches, arm angles and has a disgusting changeup. He doesn’t walk batters and he gets them to get themselves out.

Daisuke Matsuzaka: Yes, Dice-K is a difficult pitcher to hit, but you don't need many hits to do damage to him. He walks a lot of batters - led all of MLB in walks in 2008 - and his 18-3 record is very misleading; he had plenty of run support this year. He had an amazing 6.23 runs of support per start. He's not invincible and might be the most over-rated starter in baseball this season. The Angels got to him with three runs on eight hits in 5 innings of


Game Two:

Scott Kazmir: Kazmir hasn’t been himself this season. He missed the firs month and a half of the season with elbow soreness and his last several starts he has given up the long ball. Against the White Sox, he was clearly too hyped up and started very shaky before settling down. When he’s on, he’s one of the best three lefties in the game.

Josh Beckett: Beckett didn’t have a great season and is clearly been battling physical issues. He has a history of performing big in October and also against the Rays but it seems he’s more vulnerable now than ever. His regular season performances seems to indicate that he has focus issues and he clearly has a monster ego. His last five starts of the season were mediocre and his ALDS start against the Angels was the shortest playoff outing of his career.

 

Game Three:

Matt Garza: Garza has a big game mentality. He has nasty stuff. He can dominate and entire game. Unfortunately, he hasn’t been able to keep his fiery competitiveness in check at all times. He gets a bit emotional and tries to do too much at times. He tends to have one bad inning and dominates the rest of the game. His mental toughness and make up is what you want from a starter in the playoffs. He pitches much better at home than on the road.

Jon Lester: Lester improved as the season went on and was a solid 7 inning pitcher each night out. There’s a perception that Lester is one of the top flight lefties in the game – That’s what they said about Erik Bedard last year, too. Lester is a nibbler and doesn’t attack the strike zone; he relies on getting batters to chase pitches on the corners. He also demonstrated that he can be taken out early with aggressive hitting attack, jumping on his pitches early in the count – as demonstrated by the Blue Jays in August and September.


Game Four:

Andy Sonnanstine: “Greg Maddux-lite” had his first whole season and showed that pitchers can control games without a 90+ mph fastball. His deceptive delivery and pinpoint control helped him to 13 wins. Sonny is a gutsy competitor and although he’s prone to the longball it comes at times when there are no baserunners. He has some of the best junk pitches on the staff and won the 4th starter slot over Edwin Jackson, despite Jackson’s more dominant “stuff”.

Tim Wakefield: Wakefield might be playing his last season. I know knuckleballers can pitch forever but Wakefield seems to have lost his effectiveness. The knuckler doesn’t move like it used to and he got shelled a couple of times in August and September. The Rays knocked him out of the third inning of their game on September 17th by having their switch hitters bat righthanded. Maddon’s approach proved effective as Willy Aybar had a HR off Wakefield and another RBI single while Fernando Perez and Gabe Bross also took him deep. When Wakefield is off, he’s a batting practice pitcher. By far, Wakefield is the least effective of the Red Sox pitchers.

Advantage: These two staffs are two of the best staffs in baseball and are more evenly matched than people think. On any given evening the Rays starters can be more dominant than the Red Sox starters. The Red Sox starters have benefited much more from early and more run support than the Rays starters but Wakefield is the weakest link – his knuckler is a craps shoot. He is ineffective against the Rays and will need the Green Monster to keep them in the yard in Game 4. More than likely each team will get one dominant start from one of its starters and the series will come down to bullpens.

Tie 10-10 (although the stats say the Rays are better)

 

 

Bullpen:

Rays: RH Grant Balfour, RH Chad Bradford, LH J.P. Howell, LH Trever Miller, LH David Price

The Rays improvement in the bullpen is the greatest and simplest explanation why they improved so much over last season. In 2007, the bullpen had a 6.16 ERA – the worst in over 50 years! This season, they allowed a MLB best, miniscule .220 batting average, had a 3.55 ERA and had the fourth fewest blown saves of any bullpen. Balfour has been lights out and J.P. Howell has been steady in multi-inning relief. Trever Miller is the lefty specialist and Chad Bradford’s sidearm dealing has been a change of pace addition to the ‘pen. Rookie David Price is destined to be a staff ace for a long time to come but will be the secret weapon in times of long relief need. Former #1 overall pick Price is far and away the best pitching prospect in the game and was Minor League player of the year after advancing through all three levels of the minors before debuting in a Rays uniform in September. He is a fierce competitor and does not rattle at all. His composure, work ethic and skill is second to no pitcher in this series, and he’s the youngest of them all.


Red Sox: RH Manny Delcarmen, LH Hideki Okajima, RH Justin Masterson, LH Javier Lopez, RH Paul Byrd

The Red Sox bullpen is not on the same level as the Rays. They allowed a .247 batting average and had a collective ERA of 4.00. Justin Masterson has assumed the setup role since converting from a starter and is prone to walks. Lopez is the lefty specialist and Paul Byrd will be the long relief guy. The Red Sox’ bullpen got smacked around a little bit against the Angels and certainly are the most likely part of the Sox roster to falter in this series.


Advantage: The Red Sox have a pretty good bullpen, however they are a bit overrated by the general consensus while the bullpen is clearly the Rays team’s strength. The bullpen is going to decide this series since the starting pitchers are fairly evenly matched. The Red Sox bullpen is vulnerable and if the Sox hope to win this series, they will need to avoid using their ‘pen.

Rays 10 - 8

 

Closer:

Jonathan Papelbon: As good as they get. One of the three best closers in the game and a natural born psycho on the mound. He has supreme confidence and nasty stuff. He comes right at hitters and has the goods to blow anyone away. Pressure seems to be a non-issue with him. However, the Rays have demonstrated that he’s not invincible and can be beat when they defeated him in Fenway in September with the division title on the line. He might be able to forget that and move on, then again… maybe he hasn’t.


Dan Wheeler: Reunited with his old pitching coach Jim Hickey from Houston after last year’s trade for Ty Wigginton, Wheeler has been thrust into the closer role due to the health issues of Troy Percival. Wheeler is certainly competent enough even though he tends to give up solo Home Runs when he has a two run lead. He’s seasoned and has the stuff to be a closer as he has been outstanding as setup man. Grant Balfour and his nasty stuff might also get opportunities to close.


Advantage: Papelbon is a clear cut advantage for the Red Sox – if they can get to him. The Rays have shown they can beat Papelbon at Fenway and don’t fear him or any reliever (they also beat Rivera this season, too). Papelbon is still a better closer than Wheeler who has good enough stuff but has been a setup man for most of his career and is now the closer by default. One thing that works to the Rays advantage is their ability to use anyone in the closer role.

Red Sox 10 - 7

 

Managers:

Joe Maddon: Maddon is Manager of the Year hands down. He is the eternal optimist and handled his team like a wise sage all season long. He’s “been there” before and directed a team with little talent and a piss poor attitude in 2006 into a powerhouse for years to come by showing the team that cohesiveness, 100% focus and togetherness will overcome adversity. He spent 33 years with the Angels organization, has learned from the best and seen it all. He never is at a loss for multi-syllablical words to express himself and is finally getting his due. Maddon has relied on guile, creativity and unorthodox methods to lead this team and the players believe in him 100%.

It started in Spring with all-out effort and “9=8”. He inspired the franchise with his slogans and bringing in inspirational figures to ground and unite the team. Now they have a chance to make 9=1.


Terry Francona: Michael Jordan’s minor league manager should never have been fired from the Phillies. He is a master at managing people and a wonderful game tactician. His Dad was a ballplayer, he came up into the bigs with high expectations and never really played to his potential getting relegated to a role player. He learned the game from the bench during his playing career and his carefree attitude has breathed fresh air into a smothering media contingency in the New England.

 

Advantage: Let’s be honest, these are two of the best managers and ego massagers in the game today. They both do things "out-of-the-box" at times and are both calculating with their usage of players.

Tie 10-10

 

Totals and Summary:

Oddly enough it's the Rays wearing mohawks, much as the rebellious participants did at the Boston Tea Party, standing up to the Oppressors of Freedom and overthrowing the King's taxation. Maybe this will be the new revolution; the Boston Sweep Party? OK, I won't go as far as to call it a sweep no matter how much I want to. The Red Sox put a lot of effort into beating the Angels and the Rays are suddenly hitting on all cylinders and the healthiest they've been all season.

Advantage: These teams are evenly matched – as indicated by their season win totals being a mere two game difference in baseball’s toughest division. The series will come down to strengths and weaknesses.

The Rays are deeper and have a stronger bullpen, plus home field advantage and the mojo of the year. These are the types of seasons that the Baseball gods smile at and shine brightly upon. It's hard for a team with this much momentum and cohesion to suddenly lose that winning formula. They are brothers in arms, a family with one mission - to overcome any obstacle placed before them.

Rays 116 – 110 – see? I told you they are closely matched!

Prediction: Rays in 5. Great pitching and defense beats Great hitting. The Rays have built their team on the proven championship formula and health has been on their side at the right moment - Now.

The Rays sweep the first two games at home in close scoring but not-that-close contests, the Red Sox beat Garza in Fenway then get blown out in Game 4. Game 5 goes extra innings as Papelbon allows the tying run in the 9th and the Rays pull their magic out of the cap once again at Fenway.

 

2 recs  |  Comment 53 comments

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I think I'd have to disagree with LF

Bay is a superior hitter to CC, and I dont think Crawford’s D makes up the difference.

by td32 on Oct 9, 2008 9:49 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Bay is -15. Crawford's probably around +10 or so. If that is the case, Crawford's D does make up the difference.

Though admittedly CC’s is a guess, but I know Bay was -15

Yesterday's Pants
A blog-thingy about the Mariners and stuff.

by BrettJMiller on Oct 9, 2008 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Fenway effect

Fenway always makes left fielders look worse, because you can’t defend against a ball hit into the monster in a spot where there would be grass in any other ballpark.

Vogt early, Vogt often.

by Brickhaus on Oct 9, 2008 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I was looking at Manny

Since he left Boston, he’s been almost average as a LF.

by rglass44 on Oct 9, 2008 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Uhh... what?

Manny led ALL OF’s in assists a couple years ago THANKS to the Green Monster. (and the fact that guys weren’t afraid to try to run on him)

I like Bay – he hustles all the time, he is fundamentally sound but he isn’t in Crawford’s class in the field or any other category except for his power and patience to take walks.

If you're not having fun, what are you having? There's already WAAAY too many serious moments in life.

by Manny Stiles on Oct 9, 2008 3:14 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

All Crawford has on him is speed.

Their respective carer slash lines:

Crawdaddy: .293/.330/.435/.765
Bay: .282/.375/.516/.891

So, Bay is a much better hitter. Crawford has the advantage in steals and LF defense. Neither of which comes close to mitigating the difference at the plate. Throw in the fact that Crawford is having his worst year as a pro, and Bay is having a very good year. Bay is much more dangerous in this round.

by rglass44 on Oct 9, 2008 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Only on paper...

Baseball is played on grass and FieldTurf II, not a calculator or spreadsheet.

When “projecting the future”, what they do well and what they are going to do matters more than what they’ve done poorly and what they’ve done…

The problem with “career” numbers, it includes the average of pre- and post-learning curve, hard work and dedication to one’s craft. It takes the slag, the ore and iron (and often the ensuing rust) and averages them together. It doesn’t measure what the iron is used for or how it is tempered at the moment. One set of stats can say “steel” but the current product might be a trash can…

Jason Bay is a component with the Red Sox – he’s not “home” with the team yet. Carl Crawford IS the Rays! Show me a stat that measures a guy’s ability to feel comfortable in his own skin, a stat that measures his ability to temper his excitement in these situations…

All I’m saying is, this means more to C.C. than it does Bay; he’s more emotionally involved in “the clash”, more involved with the history and has more at stake in creating his “legend”.

Don’t underestimate what will happen because the stats you are basing your logic on came in COMPLETELY different circumstances than what will go down in the ALCS.

If you're not having fun, what are you having? There's already WAAAY too many serious moments in life.

by Manny Stiles on Oct 9, 2008 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

More conjecture

Was the ALDS a better predictor? Bay outperformed CC significantly in that. You haven’t been a Rays fan long enough to love CC this much have you? I’m a huge CC fan, but Bay is a better ballplayer, and this year he’s a much better ballplayer.

by rglass44 on Oct 9, 2008 4:02 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

How long I was a "Rays fan" is irrelvant.

I’ve liked Crawford since he was with the Maryvale Saguaros of the Arizona Fall League in 2001…

Look, make personal snips at me all you want – YOU can’t prove me wrong, only the future can… so save the pecks at your keyboard for something more worth your effort. you only have so many taps in your fingers before you die – use them wisely.

Better yet, write your own article about it so someone just like you can nitpick over your informed opinion to make themselves feel big and bad for a moment.

If you're not having fun, what are you having? There's already WAAAY too many serious moments in life.

by Manny Stiles on Oct 9, 2008 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It's nothing personal

I wasn’t the one who brought it up. I just disagreed about your assertion that Crawford is as good of a player. That wasn’t meant to be an attack. It was a joke on the fanbase because of the irrational CC love.

I don’t write creatively. It’s not my shtick. I look at data and present it.

I think you did a great job on the piece, and only took issue with it once somebody else brought it up. I was trying to discuss my view of the relative merits/demerits of the players.

by rglass44 on Oct 9, 2008 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Fair enough.

I was actually hoping MORE people would bitch about the rankings.

That’s what I get when I actually try writing objectively… Seriously, this is the least hype I have EVER written concerning the Rays

Example – http://www.armchairgm.com/101_Reasons_the_Devil_Rays_could_Win_the_World_Series_2822This_Year22_Edition29

No more straight shooting from me!!! Carl Crawford is now an 11.5 and Jason Bay is a 4. There!

I’m now picking the Rays in THREE!!!

If you're not having fun, what are you having? There's already WAAAY too many serious moments in life.

by Manny Stiles on Oct 9, 2008 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah

But assists don’t factor much into most defensive measures.

Vogt early, Vogt often.

by Brickhaus on Oct 10, 2008 10:58 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Crawford vs. Bay

Bay has more power and takes walks better, but Crawford (when healthy, which is why I basically tossed the season stats out the window) has the tendency to hit over .300 and is simply an XBH machine with his speed. Even when he singles, he can steal second and turn it inot essentially a double. To me – what Crawford does on the basepaths disrupts a pitcher more than Bay’s power. And Crawford is perhaps the best defensive LF there is; he makes the difficult look routine.

Another thing to consider, Crawford is three years younger. He still has room to improve while Bay has probably reached his peak already.

Bay is a very good player, but if you were starting a team today, both of these guys are getting your consideration to be your leftfielder – thus the reason I gave them both a “10” – they’re two of the top 5 or so at their position in the game, they’re 10’s.

If you're not having fun, what are you having? There's already WAAAY too many serious moments in life.

by Manny Stiles on Oct 9, 2008 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

In this series, which is what we're looking at.

They aren’t close. Crawford has never put together a season as good as ggod as any sean as Bay’s, except last year. The difference in their fielding, as LF, doesn’t come close to making up the difference. As far as their effect on the basepaths, Bay stole 10 w/ 0 CS, and Crawford stole 25 with 7 CS. That’s a difference of 8 net SBs. That difference doesn’t come close to making their impact even.

by rglass44 on Oct 9, 2008 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Crawford's legs were bothering him for most of the season

We all know that’s why his basestealing was what it was. If he’s healthy, he’s going to be tough to deal with on the basepaths.

by rayweaver on Oct 9, 2008 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

And... His legs got a rest with his finger surgery

We don’t need to agree but let’s talk about these two after the series is over and see who was right, ok?

If you're not having fun, what are you having? There's already WAAAY too many serious moments in life.

by Manny Stiles on Oct 9, 2008 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

There's more to "impact" than stats can measure.

Is there a way to measure “pitchers distracted” or “hits allowed because pitchers were focusing on the baserunner”?

Stats only tell you what you want to look at – Stats only tell you what happened. Crawford makes things happen. He is a threat at bat and on the bases, he chirps all game long and gets in your head, he talks smack at you during BP – these things can’t be measured but certainly have an effect on the results (stats) of the game.

I think stats people oversetimate the effect of a home run and undersetimate other base hits. When a pitcher allows a home run, he can say… “I missed my spot”, “he beat me on that one” or “eh, he got lucky” then wipe it from his mind and go into his windup and get back into a groove.

When a pitcher allows a base hit, he can’t erase the thought because there the guy is on base looking at him while he goes into the stretch and has to split his attention. Hits disrupt a pitcher and continue to disrupt them after the fact, Home Runs are over and done with…

Carl Crawford on first or second will wear a pitcher’s concentration and energy down much faster than Jason Bay hitting a mistake pitch…. in fact, if you look at when MOST mistake pitches are made – it’s when runners are on base, isn’t it?

If you're not having fun, what are you having? There's already WAAAY too many serious moments in life.

by Manny Stiles on Oct 9, 2008 3:23 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

First off, that entire post is conjecture

Second, studies have proven that most pitchers are not effected by base stealers on the basepaths. They show that there is just as much of a negative effect on the guys hitting in that situation.

Third, the stats we’ve used don’t measure the fact that Bay causes positive externalities by seeing more pitches in his ABs. The guys behind him see more of the pitcher, the pitcher is forced to throw more pitches, etc. This has a much bigger effect on a “pitcher’s concentration” than Crawford on first.

What if I said it helps a pitcher to have a guy on base? Prove me wrong. I can point to Jackson’s numbers with men on vs. bases empty, and it would seem to back up my point.

“I think stats people oversetimate the effect of a home run and undersetimate other base hits.” I think stupid people tend to lump people into categories. I am no more a stats person than a scouts person or a baseball nut or a Rays’ fan. Looking at stats, though, is a way to differentiate between players when you don’t see every AB, every outcome, every occurance on the field. If you feel like you’ve seen enough to know that these two players are the two best LF in the game then I’d have to say I’ve seen differently, and it wouldn’t take a whole lot to see that.

by rglass44 on Oct 9, 2008 3:44 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I was a pitcher, my "conjecture" is based on life experience.

If you think that pitchers can focus 100% when men are on the bases and have no effect, then good for you… Your pulse rises, your blood pressure changes, you’re thinking about things other than rocking back and chucking what the catcher calls. You have to know who is covering what base, where you’re backing up and what the manager is asking your defense to do. Where do you go if it’s a comebacker? Should you make a quick pickoff move or an easy one as to not show your best move yet?

Look, call it conjecture, it’s common sense. The more things there are to distract you and the more things you have to be aware of, the less you can focus on the task at hand (pitching)

Sure, there are some guys who pitch better from the stretch – they are professionals – just as some guys CAN’T get a HR out of their heads – but most pitchers pitch more effectively and more efficiently from the windup.

As for batters getting flustered with runners on base – that’s hit and run situations and protecting the plate with two strikes. That is protecting the runner, not “hitting”…

As for “I think stupid people tend to lump people into categories” – isn’t “stupid people” a category? I’ve learned stupid people take generalizations, feel guilty about them then need to defend themselves from some percieved attack.

Now tell me – Was my comment directed at you? If you’re not a “stats people” why get offended and lump me in with “stupid people”?

Which Leftfielders would you take right now over Carl or Bay?

If you're not having fun, what are you having? There's already WAAAY too many serious moments in life.

by Manny Stiles on Oct 9, 2008 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I played too

I had those problems. I’m now a financial analyst. Hmmmm….

They are pros. They are used to working with men on base. If not they aren’t up. Baseball Prospectus (I know, I know) did a study on the effect of basestealers on. They found that pitcher’s did not seem to be any worse than with anyone else on. Hitters (even middle of the order bats) seemed to be effected a little. I can’t find the study because I think it was in their book.

The sensations you described seem like they come from anyone on base. In which case, Bay would have a clear advantage because he gets on base a lot more.

You never addressed players that make a pitcher work vs. hack at everything. I would say that has a much greater effect on a pitcher than a basestealer.

As far as LF I’d rather have for one series, Holliday, Braun, Burrell, Manny, and maybe Girly Arm Damon.

I’d probs rather have Bay over Damon, though.

by rglass44 on Oct 9, 2008 4:36 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Damon?

Have you had a cat-scan recently???

Braun can hit but he is AWWWWFUL in the field. He should be a DH. Burrell is ice and fire and nothing in between – that guy has a mental issue or something. And Manny…well… Those three right there are hitters only in leftfield so they don’t mess too much up..

Holliday is a turd of a person but merely a pedestrian player away from Coors (check his splits sometime)

Including Craw and Bay, that’s still only the 6 best LF’ers in the game (seriously, Damon? I can throw better with my feet than he can with his noodlearm).

“players that make a pitcher work " – aren’t able to do that with pitchers that get ahead in counts and make hitters work. Pitchers "work” when they aren’t doing their job correctly.

Bad pitchers are the ones who walk batters. Even the greatest hitter can’t work a count on a good pitcher. Obviously the game today has more good batters than good pitchers…

I was raised in the game under the credo – “Walks kill you every time.”

If you're not having fun, what are you having? There's already WAAAY too many serious moments in life.

by Manny Stiles on Oct 9, 2008 5:07 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I was raised in the game under the credo – "Walks kill you every time."

Well, they were wrong. Unless you meant as a pitcher. I may have misread that.

I think you are greatly overvaluing defense in LF. Would you rather have Kotchman at 1B than Prince Fielder?

Who cares if they butcher LF? Over 7 games how many balls do you think CC gets to that those guys don’t? 3? 5? Does getting on base more and hitting for way more power make up for it? The stats say they do. Jim Bowden may disagree because he doesn’t trust numbers. The good GMs do. That’s why they’re good.

by rglass44 on Oct 9, 2008 5:22 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yes, I was a pitcher (as mentioned above)

C.C. gets to balls NO ONE else does. Between him and B.J. there is an severe advantage the Rays have over other teams. When you eliminate the gaps, you hamper the offense.

And yes, 3-5 balls in seven games is HUGE!!! That’s 3-5 outs that are now XBH’s. Baseball isn’t just about scoring runs, it’s also about not giving up runs… NEVER give away outs. Getting outs is more important than preventing Home Runs. You can give up HRs and win but you can’t in without getting outs. This is why Bartlett is the shortstop and Willy Aybar isn’t.

Another thing about LFers… they are important on the outs they make too. If they are in a good positioin to throw, runners don’t advance, if they cut doubles into singles, that’s VERY important. You don’t notice these things in box scores UNTIL they don’t happen…

If you're not having fun, what are you having? There's already WAAAY too many serious moments in life.

by Manny Stiles on Oct 9, 2008 6:30 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The defensive metrics (which look at more than what's in a boxscore)

Say that over AN ENTIRE SEASON CC is 15 runs better than Bay. Divide that by 20. Bay costs his team .75 runs in the field. You don’t think he (or Manny or Burrell etc) makes that up over CC?

by rglass44 on Oct 9, 2008 7:03 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

What do you want me to say?

Nope.

What have the Red Sox done without Manny? What have the Phillies done without Burrell?

You can’t deny C.C. makes things HAPPEN.

I rated Crawford and Bay both 10s in my article and I’m not changing it, no matter what numbers you throw at me. I’ve seen a LOT of baseball in my days and I’ve seen both guys play plenty of times.

 Am I biased towards C.C. because he’s a fun guy to watch sportscenter with or talk about tattoos with or because his kid is cute and he spends the offseason here in Phoenix? Sure. But my bias isn’t what rated C.C. a 10, my ability to judge baseball talent with my eyes is…

Maybe you like Bay – FINE. I feel I complimented him pretty well. But he’s also spent a career accumulating numbers on a bad team like Crawford and until he was a Red Sox he was invisible to the league while Crawford was accumulating numbers ona bad team and routinely called one of the best young players in the game.

He might have had his “numbers” hampered by injury this season but he didn’t learn to suddenly suck. He’s rested and fresh, healthy and raring to go. He’s going to perform very well in this series… there I said it.

If you're not having fun, what are you having? There's already WAAAY too many serious moments in life.

by Manny Stiles on Oct 9, 2008 7:37 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

until he was a Red Sox he was invisible to the league while Crawford was accumulating numbers ona bad team and routinely called one of the best young players in the game.

Bay was the ROY,a 2 time all-star, and finished 12 and 23 in the MVP voting.

Crawford is a two-time AS and finished 26th in the MVP voting.

Who’s invisible?

Please spare us the personal associations. I don’t care if you had his children. It has nothing to do with his abilities as a ballplayer.

It’s a good thing I look at so many stats because I’ve never seen a baseball game.

by rglass44 on Oct 10, 2008 2:53 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well then... pay attention to the ALCS and see what happens!

What part of “my bias isn’t what rated C.C. a 10, my ability to judge baseball talent with my eyes is…” did you NOT understand?

This attacking my opinions thing makes me weary – YAWN – I say YAWN because it seems you can’t hear me yawn through the internet every time I hit “post”.

Despite my unforgivable “personal associations” (I pretty much made a fair case for the object of your desire, Jason Bay in the article, too) it had nothing to do with my rating system.

I’m glad that “Carl Crawford is a 10” is your primary sticking point here… despite the other 5,400 words of this saga + comments When Carl is Bay’s age, how many All-Star games will he have been in? If Bay is so awesome, why did the Pirates trade him? Whose rookie card would you rather have?

Why does it matter? All that matters is whether I’ll be right or wrong when it’s all said and done! If the Rays get swept and Carl Crawford goes 0-16 while Jason Bay hits 5 HRs will you be sure to be the first one to say “I told you so!!!”???

And if so, do you want a medal? Or a chest to pin it on?

I’m sorry that I bunched your panties with my personal and – trying to be objective as possible – opinion but guess what? Not every one sees the world the way you do. Some people see peanut butter and jelly both as “tens” and some people like peanut butter more than jelly and get offended when the crust isn’t cut off and need to endlessly defend their view to obstinate individuals like me who don’t give a damn and – get this – do what THEY want to instead of what YOU want them to… that’s called a YOU problem, not a ME problem! Tell your Mommy how much better Jason Bay is than Carl Crawford, alright?

Again, if you can do better at rating these two teams, BY ALL MEANS, I’m not stopping you!

Otherwise, shut up and read it, smile, frown…whatever, pleeeeeease! Not that your rebuttals aren’t fun, but since they’re pretty much a waste of BOTH of our time since I’ve stated several times that you aren’t in a million lifetimes changing my mind – your rebuttals are not that fun…

It was my piece, I wrote it how I wanted, typos, purposefully bad grammar, odd Capitalization and creative licensing exactly as I wanted – and I PROUDLY stand by EVERY word. If your problem is how I rated Crawford equal to Bay – I DON’T CARE – I’m not changing it!

Hey, hate me, hate Carl Crawford, hate whatever and whomever you want… but at least TRY to be interesting about it.

I reiterate… YAWN.

If you're not having fun, what are you having? There's already WAAAY too many serious moments in life.

by Manny Stiles on Oct 10, 2008 5:16 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

You seem overly defensive

Create a poll on this website to see who people would rather have Bay or Craw. You are talking to a Pro-Rays audience here and I would wager that this season Bay would net 75+% of that vote. Before Craw even got hurt there was a vocal contingent doing everything they could to get Bay, and if he wasn’t stolen by an illegal back room, after hours deal he would be here today.

Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind.

by Sandy Kazmir on Oct 10, 2008 1:01 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sandy, I agree with you 100%

(Except for the poll part – someone can do that as a separate article if they want)

But the point of this article wasn’t about Crawford – AT ALL. It was about the Rays winning the ALCS.

And my point about Crawford is he is better than any of the leftfielders that I would rate a 9…

AS for being overly defensive… Nah, there isn’t a “sarcasm” font big enough for me.

I really don’t care, I just LOVE to craft words for people’s (my) amusement…

An interesting note: I posted this piece on several other websites and of all the other comments there’s only ONE mention of Crawford being rated too high… I find it interesting. Either the rest of the ’net is blind like me or this site is reading from the book of Crawford with their noses on the print…

If you're not having fun, what are you having? There's already WAAAY too many serious moments in life.

by Manny Stiles on Oct 10, 2008 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

This site falls more on the sabermetric side of the stats/traditionalist equation.

Which means that the majority of readers are less likely to care about reputation or subjective opinions. Rather, they care about facts and results.

by RaysFanAL08 on Oct 10, 2008 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

That's fine... I'm neither. I'm more of a Sports Shaman.

But there’s only way to prove ANY opinion or equation correct – that’s by PLAYING THE GAMES.

One thing metrics DOESN’T do – EVERY year, in the playoffs some scrub comes out of nowhere to turn himself into a legend despite logic and statistics. Baseball history is FLOODED with them – the guys who shouldn’t have done anything do the most:

Kirk Gibson, Mickey Hatcher, Tom Lawless, Francisco Cabrera, Kevin Stocker, Jim Leyritz, Bill Mazeroski, Scott Podsednik, Adam Kennedy, Craig Counsell, Tony Womack, Ed Sprague, Dave Roberts, Shane Spencer, Billy Hatcher, Joe Oliver, Rusty Kuntz…
Metrics says those guys should have failed, yet they are remembered despite how much they sucked. It only takes ONE sway from expected results to create a legend in the postseason.

I seem to have a feeling Gabe Gross, Ben Zobrist, Fernando Perez or Willy Aybar are the kind of guys who can join that list.

Stats only explain what has happened but subjective opinion CAN indicate what is likely…

Expect the unexpected – metrics are averages, not possibilities and in the playoffs – possibilities are at the center of reality.

Telling the future isn’t that hard to do… you just have to open your mind and close your distorted by “conventional thought” senses and see the overwhelming tide approaching you.

THAT is why hindsight is always 20/20 – because when you look back on events, the ingredients were there first… you just didn’t slow down enough to recognize how apparent they were.

If you're not having fun, what are you having? There's already WAAAY too many serious moments in life.

by Manny Stiles on Oct 10, 2008 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The reason mediocre players do big things in the playoffs...

is because anything can happen in a small sample size. But doing one thing, or how a player performs in one game, may cause people to remeber them, but does and should not change the way one looks at the player.

No one is saying not expect the unexpected. Honestly, what are you talking about here?

The Shane Spencers of the world can do great things in little bursts, and the Aaron Boones of the world have their moments. How is that relevant?

The thing is, over a large sample size, the players who add more value are the ones who you would rather have on your club.

You seem to not understand the concept of sample size. Really, I do not even know what your are trying to argue.

But people who do things like make roster decisions—or in the financial markets—on gut feelings, rather than objective data, usually lose out bigtime in the long run.

You have a feeling that Gross or Aybar or Zobrist is going to do something big. That is great, Manny, but I hope you do not have that approach when it comes to investing money or doing things that are important.

Unexpected things happen in this great game. That is what makes it great. But when picking a player for a roster or to hit, you go with the guy who has the track record and is more talented and capable of delivering.

by RaysFanAL08 on Oct 10, 2008 6:17 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Stats do ONLY one thing...

They talk about the past.

The ALCS is NOT in the past… (yet)

And by the way – I used to be a stockbroker. Seriously. Perhaps you’ve heard the old investment adage “Past performance does NOT ensure future results”…

It stands true for baseball as well.

If you're not having fun, what are you having? There's already WAAAY too many serious moments in life.

by Manny Stiles on Oct 10, 2008 6:55 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

heard the adage

but past performance in baseball gives a better idea of how baseball players will perform in the future than anything else.

by RaysFanAL08 on Oct 10, 2008 7:23 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Even when he singles?

With no one on base, a walk is as good as a single. And if he could get on base more via the walk, he could steal more bases and turn those walks into “essentially a double,” as you say.

Also, you wrote: Jason Bay is a component with the Red Sox – he’s not "home" with the team yet. Carl Crawford IS the Rays! Show me a stat that measures a guy’s ability to feel comfortable in his own skin, a stat that measures his ability to temper his excitement in these situations…

All I’m saying is, this means more to C.C. than it does Bay; he’s more emotionally involved in "the clash", more involved with the history and has more at stake in creating his "legend"."

How do you know that this means more to CC than Bay? Does Bay not want to win a World Championship? Also, these points are irrelevant. It comes down to the things that have an impact on winning. Crawford “IS” the Rays, which is fine and dandy. But generally talent has more of a direct result on how someone will perform in the future, like you say.

Stats cannot predict the future. Nothing can. Stuff happens. But they tell us how much real value a player has added to his team in the past, and gives us the best idea of who will perform better in the future. Over their careers, Bay has been more productive and has added value in the stuff that helps team actually win games—not stuff, like he “IS The Rays.”

by RaysFanAL08 on Oct 10, 2008 11:18 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Nothing can predict the future?

But I just did! Now what?

If you're not having fun, what are you having? There's already WAAAY too many serious moments in life.

by Manny Stiles on Oct 10, 2008 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

BTW, good breakdown

A few quibbles:

- Something’s wrong if 2008 Carl Crawford and 2008 Jason Bay are graded the same. Ditto for 2008 Gabe Gross vs 2008 Mark Kotsay playing out-of-position.

- I’d move Lowrie up a point. There’s a fairly substantial minority that thinks Lowrie will be a good major league player, and it’s pretty much the same minority that thought Pedroia would be a good major leaguer. They’re basically clones of each other, only Lowrie is less annoying.

- 8 for Varitek is VERY generous.

- Probably not enough weight is being given to pitching.

- As constructed for the playoffs, I’d say Boston’s bullpen is a notch better than it was in the regular season. They still have three guys in that pen on top of Papelboner who have been very good but with unlucky ERAs.

All in all, the inconsistencies probably even out anyway. Good review though.

Vogt early, Vogt often.

by Brickhaus on Oct 9, 2008 10:20 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Nice job, Manny

But you are wrong about Crawford. You rely on what you have “seen” with your own eyes. Do you watch enough games to notice a difference in the plays the CC makes in left field? That would be impossible. Rglass is dead on. Crawford is much better defensively, and fits in with the Rays’ excellent run prevention efforts. But how can he be an impact player if he never gets on base? I know he had a down year, but his speed is useless offensively when he is making outs so frequently and walking back to the dugout. Objectively, it is not even close. Rglass is not a Bay fan, he likes the Rays and wants Carl to do well. But there is no sugarcoating it—Crawford, though he has been hurt, was one of the least productive offensive LFers in baseball in ’08 when he was on the field. His OPS was far south of the league average at the position.

CC is one of my favorite players, and one of the reasons I watched the Devil Rays when they were so bad and he provided one of the only bright spots. He is exciting to watch when he is on the basepaths and hitting triples. But he is just not as good as his reputation would lead you to believe.

And we all hope he goes 9-for-15 in the ALCS with a bunch of steals, home runs and runs scored while Bay goes 0-for-the-series. Rglass wants that too. But even that would not change anything, because how either player performs in such a small sample size does should not change any opinions about a player. Anything can happen in a short series.

Over the course of the past few seasons, Bay has been the more productive player. While he was hurt in ’07 and had a down year—as CC did this year—it really is not even close. And that is not a personal attack on you or your work. You did a great, albeit long, job on this piece. But you are preaching to the wrong crowd here about the value and “impact” of CC.

Now, if only CC could improve his plate discipline, draw more walks and post a .400-plus OBP. Then you might have one of the biggest impact players in the game, as he could utilize his speed. But his approach will never enable him to get to that level.

by RaysFanAL08 on Oct 10, 2008 8:05 AM EDT reply actions   1 recs

We'll see who has more "impact" in this series, won't we?

Look C.C. is a “10” for one simple reason – and it has NOTHING to do with Jason Bay – How many LF would you take OVER C.C.??? Two? Three? If that? Well, those guys are 10’s too… It has nothing to do with rating players to each other. I have Longoria as a 10, I have Pedroia as a 10. Would I take Pedroia over Longo? NOT ON MY LIFE – but at second base, yes…

Do you see how my ratings work? If you’re on one hand as the “best” at your position, you’re a “ten”. It’s NOT complicated. It’s not about comparing them too each other.

I don’t know why this is SUCH a sticking point with people!?!?!? It’s baffling.

Nobody is bitching about Madden and Francona both being tens – No one has said "Madden has not won as a manager, he is too methodical and his formula approach to the bullpen hindeer the team and Francona has jewelry… "

If you're not having fun, what are you having? There's already WAAAY too many serious moments in life.

by Manny Stiles on Oct 10, 2008 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The issue

Is that you’re implying that there isn’t a gap between the two, and there just is, at least this year.

Vogt early, Vogt often.

by Brickhaus on Oct 10, 2008 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Anything could happen in the series.

I would take a lot more left fielders over CC than that. Defensively, he is among the best at the position. But left field is a position where you want more offensive output. Go through this list of OPS leaders at the position.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/batting?split=0&league=mlb&season=2008&seasonType=2&sort=OPS&type=reg&ageMin=17&ageMax=51&state=0&college=0&country=0&hand=a&pos=lf&startDate=null&endDate=null&minpa=0

Matt Holliday, no? Man-Ram? Carlos Quentin? Burrell? Braun? Bay? Dunn? Soriano?

I am not saying all of those guys are better than him, but they all added more value to their teams in 2008, as did several other lesser-known guys as well.

CC is the man. He is just not a 10 as far as left fielders go. That may be the common “assumption,” but is not reality—the title of your article. It is not SUCH a sticking point with people and this is nothing personal.

I hope CC wins ALCS MVP. I hope he is amazing, hitting like five bombs while making a bunch of sweet plays out in left field. Even if he does, it does not change a thing. And if Bay has a good or bad series, it does not change anything, either. You cannot judge a player on one series.

by RaysFanAL08 on Oct 10, 2008 2:18 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

OPS Schmo PS

Dunn doesn’t play Leftfield any more and NO WAY IN HELL would I take him OR Soriano over Crawford.

Man-Ram is a DH with a glove as is Braun. Matt Holiday is pedestrian away from Coors and as a guy who say seen the development of Carlos Quentin up close, I can only sum him up like so: He is a head case (why do you think the D-Backs traded him?).

OPS heavily favors Home Run hitters and guys that get pitched around (HR hitters tend to get walked more).

OPS also assumes that each base is equal on a diamond. It punishes doubles and triples hitters. Half of OPS is SLG… SLG says that one double in two at bats is equal to two singles in two at bats. THAT is a leap. It also says that one HR every four at bats is the same as four singles. OK. whatever… It’s a skewed factor by nature. Not all doubles are equal to all doubles!!! (Ground rule, bases clearing, stretching to second on a throw) how can a double be the same as two singles?

Then you add a OBP at the same value as SLG (50/50)? It gives you a number but WHAT DOES OPS REALLY mean? How truly valuable is it?

You’re taking numbers from a million different scenarios (bases empty, home and on the road, two outs, down 8 runs, up 12 runs, hit and run situations, bases loaded, against lefties, facing the starter for the third time in the game, facing a closer for the first time ever, facing a guy who is under the weather, facing a guy that banged your girl last night, borrowing someone else’s bat for good luck, when you have diarrhea, when you’re hungover, when you’re sad because you dog died) and saying they are all equal…

Sorry. That doesn’t work for me.

I want the guy that can play the game, has the skills to play effectively, utilizes those skills, understands the game and hustles – NO MATTER WHAT SCENARIO is occuring! Carl Crawford fits that definition.

If you're not having fun, what are you having? There's already WAAAY too many serious moments in life.

by Manny Stiles on Oct 10, 2008 4:31 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The D'Backs traded Quentin...

because they gave up on him based on his poor performance in a small sample size. And because they were stupid and gave Eric Byrnes—who has the qualities you seem to like, but it is not that good when it comes to actually playing baseball—an outrageous four-year contract. If they had Quentin, the frontrunner for MVP before he went down with injury, they may be the ones who won the joke of a division they call the NL West.

“OPS heavily favors Home Run hitters and guys that get pitched around (HR hitters tend to get walked more).”

Last time I checked, hitting home runs and walking were good things. And, that is the type of production you want from a left fielder, as it is not the most demanding defensive position. You are overvaluing defense at the left field spot.

What do you think is a better stat? Batting average. I certainly hope not, as BA is fairly useless and is not as valuable as the mainstream idiots—anaylsts, writers—would have you think.

“I want the guy that can play the game, has the skills to play effectively, utilizes those skills, understands the game and hustles – NO MATTER WHAT SCENARIO is occuring! Carl Crawford fits that definition.”

And the other guys do not fit that definition. Your argument about OPS was seriously flawed and when you say meaningless things like that—it really is more about value and production on the field—it hurts your credibility as the so-called Rays blogger extraordinaire.

by RaysFanAL08 on Oct 10, 2008 6:11 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'll go back to teaching my cats how to juggle flaming chainsaws

Because I stand a better chance at succeeding with that as getting through simple concepts into a boxed environment of statworld.

Again, baseball is played on a baseball field – NOT a calculator. It’s the reason why as many scouts show up to Arizona Fall League games as fans…

I KNOW why the D-Backs traded Quentin – it had NOTHING to do with Burns (who played left field while Quentin played RIGHTFIELD for the D-Backs) and it wasn’t all about Justin Upton, either – I live in Phoenix and have some contacts, afterall…

Regular people rationalize player movement based on stats and money while many deals get made for personal and personnel reasons.

“Value” is subjective. “Production” is subjective.

And the only thing that hurts my “credibility” is getting into these stupid arguments with people who are creative or flexible enough to see things as they are (reality) – not as they “were” (stats/assumptions)

“sample size”, “methodology” and “calculation” all you want – the ONLY stats that mean ANYTHING is 60 feet, 6 inches, 90 feet and 8 ways to first base, 108 stitches on the ball and oh yeah… Wins and Losses.

Stats are not probabilities, they are results. There is value in ALL Baseball games that CAN’T be measured. Not all outs are the same, not all hits are the same, not all errors are the same and not all runs are the same. To look at stats and weight them equally is mathematically irresponsible. They give you an average of averages, an idea a hint but they don’t give you an accurate description of “value”, “production” or “reality”.

If the math of baseball was a scientific experiment, the numbers being used would all be dramatically contaminated and all the calculations would have a “margin of error” high enough to render them useless.

If you think your statistical analysis tools are truly “clean”, I have some beachfront property here in Phoenix to sell you…

If you're not having fun, what are you having? There's already WAAAY too many serious moments in life.

by Manny Stiles on Oct 10, 2008 7:10 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

A. It's Byrnes, not Burns.

B. The D’Backs would be better with Quentin. They got burned, no matter what your contacts say.

And the Rays, who you blog about, would not be as good unless Andrew Friedman cared about quantitative anaylsis. I am not even a stats guy. There needs to be a mix of traditional scouting and analysis, but those GMs who ignore SA when making roster decisons are the ones that have teams that fail. And do things like, say, pay Juan Pierre millions of dollars even though he does things that do not help teams win baseball games.

The Rays are good because Friedman finds value, exploiting inefficiences—the main point of Moneyball. Have you read that book? And do not say it does not work, as the Rays and Red Sox are so-called Moneyball teams and it seems to be working for them quite well.

by RaysFanAL08 on Oct 10, 2008 7:21 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Moneyball...

Tell me… what have the A’s done since that book came out?

If you're not having fun, what are you having? There's already WAAAY too many serious moments in life.

by Manny Stiles on Oct 11, 2008 12:09 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It's a book, not a Bible

Andrew Friedman does a good job on relying on his scouts, too.

If you're not having fun, what are you having? There's already WAAAY too many serious moments in life.

by Manny Stiles on Oct 11, 2008 12:12 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

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