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Comparing the rotations of the 2009 AL East

With the economic signing of Brad Penny for 2009, the Sox have probably finished revamping their rotation for 2009 and thus the rotations for the AL East contenders (New York, Boston, Tampa) have been finalized. Let's take a look at each of the projected rotations (with handedness and 2008 FIP):

New York

 

  1. CC Sabathia (L) 2.91
  2. AJ Burnett (R) 3.45
  3. Chieng-Ming Wang (R) 3.91
  4. Andy Pettitte/Phil Hughes (L/R) 3.66/4.34
  5. Joba Chamberlain/Phil Hughes (R/R) 2.65/4.34

 

Boston

 

  1. Josh Beckett (R) 3.60
  2. Jon Lester (L) 3.64
  3. Dice-K (R) 4.03
  4. Tim Wakefield/Clay Bucholz (R/R) 4.84/4.82
  5. Brad Penny/Clay Bucholz (R/R)  5.27/4.82

 

Tampa Bay

 

  1. James Shields (R) 3.82
  2. Scott Kazmir (L) 4.37
  3. Matt Garza (R) 4.14
  4. Andy Sonnanstine (R) 3.91
  5. David Price (L) 3.42

 

Now, my gut feeling is that Andy will take the 10 MM offer on the table from the Yanks as he won't want to pitch in hitter-friendly Texas and very few teams will even offer him close to such a deal. It's a shame, but Boston will likely hold Bucholz back regardless of how he does in Spring Training and put Masterson in the bullpen to set-up Mr. Papelbon. It's also possible that David Price doesn't start the year in the majors but barring an injury or control setback, it's very likely that he sees 150+ IP in the major leagues this season, so I'm going to slot him as our number 5.

One immediate thing to take from all of this is that Boston has only one lefty in the rotation and only one solid lefty in the pen, which is all the more encouragement for us to pick up a decent right-handed bat. I think this puts Boston at a distinct disadvantage when compared to the Rays/Yanks.

Another observation is that the Yanks clearly have the strongest starting three, of course barring injury. CC is not just a power lefty, he usually has control, and he is always an innings-eating horse.  AJ is a strikeout guy whose 2008 campaign was much better than his ERA indicates. Wang is a sinkerballer who can always work deep into games and would project as the majority of ML teams #1.

Boston's starting three are also quite capable, as Beckett's FIP was significantly better than his ERA last year and is known to be a gamer/7+ innings guy. Lester is probably due for a little bit of a setback but he is still projected very well next year and can also work deep into games. Dice-K is the biggest question mark as his high walk totals will probably catch up to him eventually and he risks overexposing the Boston pen.

Tampa Bay's starting three did very well last year, but none of them have "elite" FIP's (Shields is best with a solid 3.82). While Shields can work deep into games, he doesn't seem to have the MPH to strike guys out with his fastball, and he can incorporated the changeup just as much as probably could last year as an out pitch. Kazmir is basically a better, lefty version of Dice-K who demonstrated extreme flyball tendencies last year while walking too many and failing to demonstrate an effective "out" pitch other than his fastball, which has always been rock solid. At any rate, I think that Shields and Kaz are proven enough at this point to be considered anchors of our rotation. Garza, on the other hand, is a ground-ball guy with great stuff but paltry strikeout numbers. If he can develop an effective out pitch he can really improve his strikeout numbers (and FIP).

The back ends of the Tampa Bay and New York rotations project to be quite good. Sonny is likely due for an improvement next season given his awesome control and ground-ball tendencies, and we all know what Price can do. On the other hand, New York will probably end up signing Pettitte, who is a strikeout lefty and a proven winner. Joba Chamberlain is the right-handed, fatter David Price with a little more life on his fastball and a little less on his slider. Boston seems to be at a considerable disadvantage in the back-end, given that they are hoping for a rebound season from Brad Penny and relying on the randomness that is Tim Wakefield. Overall, I'd give the Rays a slight edge over the Yankees, and a huge one over the Sox in this regard.

Overall, I think that the Yankees rotation is by far the best in the East, as it will likely feature four strikeout guys and three who can work deep into games to avoid bullpen exposure. The Rays probably have the second-best rotation and definitely the deepest one. The one area of concern for the Rays are those darn K's - sometimes, you need to strike a guy out and only two of the Rays SP's are likely to be high strikeout guys (and they're both lefties!). Boston is the weakest, but not by much, and they are likely to move Bucholz up once he regains his control in the minors.

Here are a few things to think about in general:

  • If Bucholz regains his control, he effectively rivals Price and Joba in the backend of the Boston Rotation and cuts out the wildcards Penny/Wake
  • The Rays will need to continue to play stellar defense, especially if Kaz continues to struggle in generating groundouts
  • The Rays have improved their outfield defense by adding Joyce and retaining Gabe Gross
  • The Yankees have two guys who are injury risks, and they are #1/#2
  • The Rays have tons of depth at SP (Niemann, Talbot, Davis), whereas the Sox have only some (Bowden, Bucholz) and the Yanks have barely any (Ian Kennedy, anyone?)
  • The Yankees have SUBSTANTIALLY improved their infield defense by adding an ace defender at first base (from a minus minus one in Giambi)

0 recs  |  Comment 27 comments

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One initial thought: Price only pitched ~125 IP last year

So you’re right, he may not start off on the big league club. The Rays’ FO is smart and I doubt they’ll want to push Price beyond 150-160 IP in total for next season. Maybe Price starts in AAA for a couple months while Niemann gets a chance to prove himself? I wish Price could just start off the season for us, but this strategy probably makes more sense in the long run. No sense risking injury, plus we need to do something with Niemann.

"I never threw an illegal pitch. The trouble is, once in a while I toss one that ain't never been seen by this generation." - Satchel Paige

by Steve Slowinski on Dec 30, 2008 9:04 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

But he did pitch an absurd # of innings the year before in college

Which contributed to his lack of innings last year. I don’t think the Rays are going to take his IP into account when deciding whether or not to have him start the season up here or down there, he showed pretty clearly that he’s ready for the show and doesn’t really need any more ‘seasoning’ in the minors, so to speak. It’ll more likely boil down to if the Rays can find a roster spot for him over everyone who has to be here.

I will say that if they send him down, you will likely hear innings as a convinent excuse.

by kericr on Dec 30, 2008 9:34 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Umm where are the Blue Jays?

They have some STUDS pitching right now.

Why not include them?

Roy Halladay alone is worth 2 Starting pitchers!

Devil Rays World Series 2009

by Japhei on Dec 30, 2008 10:48 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

I will do it with the Jays and I will be nice and include McGowan

Even though he wont be back til 2 months into the season

1. Halladay > Sabathia > Shields > Beckett
2. Lester > Healthy Kaz > Burnett > Litsch
3. Garza > Wang > Dice K > McGowan
4. Price = Joba > Penny >>> Purcey
5. Sonny > Hughes > Wakefield > Janssen

Evan Longoria and David Price - the fight for my heart

by joeybw on Dec 30, 2008 12:19 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Here

Halladay > Any of the following pitchers

Sabathia > Shields > Beckett (I changed my mind, arm injuries don’t go away too fast for pitchers and he tries MUCH harder when October comes…..cept for 08
Lester > Burnett > Kazmir (If Kaz is healthy than Lester >(barely) Kazmir > Burnett)
Garza > Wang > Dice K (Garza is my 2009 Cy Young pick)
Price = Joba > Penny
Sonny > Hughes >> Wakefield

Evan Longoria and David Price - the fight for my heart

by joeybw on Dec 30, 2008 11:52 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Probably

I am a Price homer, though and I think he is just like Joba

If we do starting experience, instead of the great stuff they have then

Penny > Price = Joba

Evan Longoria and David Price - the fight for my heart

by joeybw on Dec 30, 2008 12:29 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Everyone is WAYYYYYYY overrating Lester.

His FIP last year was 3.64. that would be the third best season Kaz has had (and they are the same age). Burnett’s been better than that 3 of the last 5 years, including last year.

by rglass44 on Dec 30, 2008 12:46 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Lester did have a higher WPA than Kazmir ever did

Burnett is also more unlikely to improve than Lester, or even Kazmir.

Mother---- him and John Wayne!

by MerryGoByeBye on Dec 30, 2008 1:36 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't really like WPA for pitchers, but whatever.

Lester gets overrated because he beast cancer and carried the Sox down the stretch.

by rglass44 on Dec 30, 2008 1:45 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Why you don't like WPA for pitchers, may I ask?

Lester also got grounders at a higher rate than Kazmir ever did, lower WHIP than Kazmir ever did, and also walked guys at a far lower rate.

I don’t know where we’re going with this, let’s agree that both are good young lefties at a different stage in their career?

Mother---- him and John Wayne!

by MerryGoByeBye on Dec 30, 2008 7:20 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I don’t know where we’re going with this, let’s agree that both are good young lefties at a different stage in their career?

Very true.

WPA for pitchers assumes pitchers can “pitch better” in higher leverage situations. I am unsure how much stock I put in that.

As far as the the BB-Rate and GB% differences, Kaz is a far superior strike-out pitcher. This ability tends to translate into further success than any other thing a pitcher can do.

by rglass44 on Dec 31, 2008 11:49 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Kazmir always had a better K/BB rate than Lester

But I just couldn’t admit that, right? :)

However, he’s giving up far too many flyballs. Kaz was never a extreme groundball pitcher, but now he can’t seem to buy a grounder. Are you guys a worried about that?

Mother---- him and John Wayne!

by MerryGoByeBye on Dec 31, 2008 12:11 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I think you can attribute that to his lack of slider.

If he learns a cutter or can throw his slider next year, then I’d expect him to be a force. If not, then I think we’ll get bad Kaz. I’ll be very sad if it’s the latter.

by rglass44 on Dec 31, 2008 12:17 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Why did he stop throwing the slider?

Injury related thing or what?

Mother---- him and John Wayne!

by MerryGoByeBye on Dec 31, 2008 2:21 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

The Rays will need to continue to play stellar defense, especially if Kaz continues to struggle in generating groundouts

I disagree, Kazmir doesnt give up a lot of hits and doesnt have a lot of balls hit hard off of him in play so I dont see why Kazmir forces us to play good defense.

Also, wouldnt groudball pitchers need good defense more than flyball pitchers anyways?

by Rays4242 on Dec 30, 2008 12:52 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I don't get it

What’s with all the love for Garza? Stuff-wise he is probably on par with Kaz, but he has failed to consistently harness that stuff. I watched games last year where he looked like he couldn’t strike a guy out to save his life, and strikeout pitchers are important in the playoffs. We know he had a great ALCS and in general a pretty good playoff performance, but keep in mind that the playoffs are just a SSS. He had a very solid 08 but his periphs were lacking, as in he walked a little too many and struck out way too few to be considered a CY contender. I’m not sold on Garza yet – if he can work 180+ IP this season with 7.5+ K/9 and 3.0 – BB/9 then we’re cooking. So far, he’s looked like a luckier version of Edwin Jackson.

Also, Halladay is a great pitcher and his IP are always the highest or close to it, but Sabathia is a lefty, he throws harder, and he strikes more people out. If I were to build a rotation I would definitely consider Halladay as an anchor for avoiding too much pen work, but given the Yankees 2-5 starters, I don’t think you need to worry about IP in the #1 slot, especially since CC is going to provide 200+ barring injury.

by elijahdukes on Dec 30, 2008 1:05 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Did you watch any games where Garza effectively used his Curve

It was probably his least used pitch, but he made grown men look like invalids at the plate when his yakker was good. He’s an excellent pitcher when he isn’t having a mental breakdown on the mound.

Anyway, as I was lying in the puddle, I think I may have found a way for us to get Bonds and Griffey, and we wouldn't have to give up that much.

~George Costanza~

by Sandy Kazmir on Dec 30, 2008 2:33 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Rays have the best rotation in the AL East, Boston is a close second

Then NY, Toronto and Baltimore. You guys are overrating the Yankees rotation and underrating Josh Beckett (James Shields better than him? Really?).

Mother---- him and John Wayne!

by MerryGoByeBye on Dec 30, 2008 1:32 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Beckett's career numbers aren't that impressive.

His career FIP of 3.61 is the best of Shields, Kaz, and he, but I would not be surprised to see either outperform him. He is a very good pitcher, but Shields and Kaz can also be very good pitchers. Would I say he’s better? Probably, but not by much going forward. A lot of that also depends on what kind of shape he shows up in.

by rglass44 on Dec 30, 2008 1:43 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I heard he's been working on picking his blisters all season

Seriously, how does this guy always have blister problems, unless he is like Aubrey Huff on the road in hotel rooms.

Anyway, as I was lying in the puddle, I think I may have found a way for us to get Bonds and Griffey, and we wouldn't have to give up that much.

~George Costanza~

by Sandy Kazmir on Dec 30, 2008 2:35 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Beckett is just better than Shields and Kazmir

All 3 of them are amazing pitchers, the gap is not a big one.

Mother---- him and John Wayne!

by MerryGoByeBye on Dec 30, 2008 7:22 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Beckett in 2003, 2005 and 2007

was better than Kazmir or Shields have ever been, and that’s not including playoff performances

Beckett obviously had a down year last year, as did Kazmir, but its funny to me how people call their years “bad”.Beck had 173 innings pitched and a 4.07 ERA, pretty much on par with Burnett last season. Scott Kazmir had a 3.49 ERA last year but people call that the “bad Kazmir”

I would just phrase it differently

Oh and Jon Lester is not overrated how could anyone still say his cancer problem is the reason people overrate him? Lester had a 3.21 ERA last year and was unhittable in the division series vs LA. Not to mention his series clinching shutout vs Colorado in the World Series as a 23 year old and his 1 hitter he threw as a 22 year old as well as the no hitter he threw last year

what does cancer have to do with any of that

by Rays4242 on Dec 31, 2008 12:41 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Overrated

is a term that deals almost entirely with hype. Hype is generated from people talking about you. People talk about you when you are a feel good story and beat cancer. Therefore a pitcher who is good but not great will be made into an ace because of the national media’s constant talking. Talk of any sort, even if its only moderatley good, will be construed in a fan watching the national media’s eyes as talk that shows he is the best thing since sliced bread.

ERA is a decent but not good indicator of a pitcher’s prowess either. if anything use FIP.

Also, you used three playoff games to justify his talk. Not only is that anecdotal evidence which is flawed because of bias, but its a perfect example of small sample size.

Also, grammatically you said he isn’t overrated but then laid out reasons why he is overrated but why cancer isn’t the reason people overrate him. I’m having trouble following that logic, then again, quite frankly, most of the argument seems flawed to me.

On the Beckett side, I could see an argument for Kaz, but Shields’ youth (I know the other two are young as well) coupled with his consistency (not only with control but with injuries) makes him a surer bet. Also, Beckett’s 03 had bad (in comparison) peripherals in only 140 innings, so it was not better than Kaz or Shields’ average season (05 and 07 I can see arguments for) and I can argue Kaz’s 07 was comporable to Beckett’s seasons. Shields’ 08 might also be comporable to Beckett’s 07.

Unlike Kaz and Shields, however, Beckett has been wildly inconsistent and truely injury prone (Kaz has been at times as well) and based on that you can make an argument that you would rather have either of these pitchers over Beckett. I know I would

by Navi's_Navy on Jan 3, 2009 3:39 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

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