competitiveness
Compare the ability of teams to contend prior to the advent of free agency and since. Using the 16 franchises that have existed since 1903, I looked at all their records between 1920-60 (the era of Yankee dominance and before the first expansion) and again from 1976-2008, the era of free agency. That is a 41 and 33 year period.
Consider to start how often teams had a sub .500 record. There is no absolute pattern, but overall, the earlier era saw a lot more teams suffering sub .500 seasons a lot more often. For example, the Braves did it 23 times, the Browns/Orioles 31 times, the Senators 26 times, the As 28 and the Phillies 34 times from 1920-60. Those same teams did it 14, 17, 18, 16 & 15 times after 1976.
You can check how many times teams got to the post-season or won the World Series. This is less comparable as a larger percentage get to the post-season nowadays (although winning the Series is tougher). Nonetheless, 5 teams never won a WS between 1920-60; just 3 failed since 1976. Aside from the Yankees (25 times), Dodgers, Giants and Cubs who all got to the post-season 9 times, only the Cubs managed it 5 times and the other teams did it 4 or fewer. (The Tigers did it 4 times.) But since 1976, 6 teams have gotten to the post-season in double figures and no team has been there fewer than 3 times (Tigers).
You can also consider long streaks under .500. Six pre 1960 teams had a sub .500 record at least 10 straight years, including the Braves once, the Browns, Reds and Phillies twice each and the Cubs once and a second time that extended to 1963 while the As also did it once with a second time extending 15 games to 1967. The White Sox had a 9 year run. The Phillies take the prize with a 16 year run that included 4 years with winning percentages under .300.
None of those franchises except the Orioles has had a 10+ year run of .500 years although the Pirates have matched the Phillies 16 year run of futility and are poised to surpass it. Nor has any of those teams reached the same low in winning % since 1976 as they achieved prior to 1960.
Incidentally, the Yankees got to the post-season more often (61%) in the earlier period than later (55%). They also have had 5 sub .500 seasons since 1976 with only one earlier.
I know there are dozens of different ways to think about the issue, and I know that what I say here is hardly authoritative. But it at least suggests that the hysteria over Yankee spending and payrolls may be over exaggerated. Baseball has always had franchises that did poorly over long stretches and others that have been more consistently successful. Using the criteria I establish here, only the Tigers, Cubs, Indians, Pirates, Giants, Cards and Yankees have pretty clearly not done as well recently as in the past. But even in those cases, the current structure has allowed the Indians, Cubs, Pirates and Cards to appear in the post-season more often than in the past, and the Tigers to appear just one less time.
This post was written by a member of the DRaysBay community and does not necessarily express the views or opinions of DRaysBay staff.
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good stuff
and the stuff you did on the subject was really interesting as well rj
I’ve always been on the side that doesnt care what other teams spend. I think the CC and Tex drama will be entertaining, and the Burnett signing will be very enjoyable for me when he is a bust in NY and they struggle to fill his hole in the rotation. Thats how I always look at their big money moves. Either Im entertained by a great player going to a historic baseball town, or I enjoy watching overpaid players become busts and watch the Yanks struggle to fill the hole from within.
I dont see how it effects the Rays from being good. Or any other team. Not only do the Yanks pay a luxury tax but they NEVER determine whether any other team is succesful. Everyone whines and crys, but if your management and front office is good then you will be good. I fyour management sucks then you suck. People should stop blaming the Yanks atleast until the Yanks knock your team out of the playoffs on the back of Tex and CC on their way to a championship
Like Buster Olney said, one small market GM he spoke with said the Yanks should speend as much as they want since they pay into the luxury tax. Seeing as how smart and reasonable Friedman is, I kind of assume it was him
I fully believe if you get good ownership thats committed to winning above making money, into any ML baseball town, you will see a big improvemebnt on wins and losses as well as in revenue
The Lightning and Bucs proved it, albeit in completely different leagues with different structures. But I think it still proevs my point from the stance that if you get good ownership and try to be competitive you will start making a lot more money and a lot more fans
Now we proably have no chance to ever be as prfitable as the Yankees are playing in New York, but we could be every bit as profitabvle as the majority of teams and we will be capable of spending in the 100 mil range once this town hops on board
As far as profitable
Forbes routinely ranked us as the most profitable team in the league during the end of the Naimoli era. When you are handed 60M and you spend 20M there is something wrong.
Bob, great read, I was wondering what you think some of the reasons for this might be? You’ve watched baseball for a long time, do you think it is because there is more talent today? Is it easier to access and process information? Baseball has become more worldwide since then, I would think the supply of talent has increased accordingly. Any thoughts you might have are appreciated and feel free to ramble as I have done here.
Anyway, as I was lying in the puddle, I think I may have found a way for us to get Bonds and Griffey, and we wouldn't have to give up that much.
~George Costanza~
by Sandy Kazmir on Dec 31, 2008 12:33 PM EST up reply actions
I haven't really thought it through,
so anything I say is very preliminary. I do think your suggestions make a lot of sense.
I also think there is a mythology about the purity or honesty of early baseball that contradicts the facts. Early owners were often on the fringes of reputable society; the game was rife with gamblers who plied their trade right on the field. Although much of that was limited some after the Black Sox, the notion that these teams were simply the property of the individual owners did not change, and many of them remained unsavory characters.
As a result, many were not really interested in winning. There is ample evidence that some teams, I think the Phillies, Browns and As among others, saw their role as developing young talent so they could sell it to richer teams and make a small profit. That was far simpler than really developing the talent until they could compete, and then having to pay it a bit more. I do remember, and have since read confirmation, that in the 1950s there was a rather unholy relationship between the KC As and Yankees (I think the KC owner was a part investor in Yankee Stadium) which led to KC becoming in essence a Yankee farm club.
There is also a lot of amnesia about the fact that there has always been payroll disparity and that richer teams routinely plundered poorer ones, again with the willing complicity of those owners who could not have stayed in business otherwise. True, the disparity may appear less because the reserve clause kept salaries artificially low, but the impact may have been even greater then than now. Whereas now there are other avenues to building competitive teams than simply throwing money at free agents, in an earlier era the pickings were much more slim.
I am sure there is a lot more to be researched and considered, and my own hypotheses may be flawed or flat wrong, but whatever the reasons it remains true, I think, that the hullabaloo over payroll discrepancies is based on insubstantial reasoning and more a matter of emotional responses to perceived rather than real problems.
For all the hand wringing over the long ineptitude of the Orioles and Pirates, which in the Orioles case is clearly not a budget problem and in both cases is far more attributable to front office malpractice than money, it is nothing compared to the extended horrors Phillies, Braves, As, Cubs, Browns, Reds and even White Sox endured. And for that matter, there were similar if not quite as extended periods of total failure for the Senators (“1st in war, 1st in peace and last in the American League”), Pirates & Red Sox while other teams like the Yankees, Dodgers, Giants (do you see a pattern there?) & Cards rarely had long losing streaks and dominated the post-season year after year.
Incidentally, it is interesting listening to Goose Goslin’s interview with Ritter for “The Glory of Their Times” where he points out that his Senator’s owner told him he was dealing him to the Tigers because he could not pay Goslin. This was after the 1933 season when the Senators won the AL pennant. The next year, the Senators came in seventh and got above .500 three times in the next 15 years and five times over the next 28 years. They also had winning %s under .400 six times in those 28 years.
I think more teams are capable of being competitive now a days
because the league has established itself
every team from every city can be profitable. Baseball is a very profitable business, and attendance still averages 30,000 per game around the league. So if an owner wants to go through the hard times to help build a winner and a quality, profiitable product, it is possible no matter where you play.
I say this, but there are some pro sports cities Im just not sure about as far as being able to sustain attendance and revenue even when they are a good product. Like Miami. Only problem is, most Marlins fans will argue that they are never given players to become attached to who will stay in Miami for a long time. Either way 95% of teams around the country can become very profitable if they do things the right way because of how financialy succesful MLB is. This is probably a good reason why there is a more balanced and competitive league today

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