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Not Mad

Yelling profanities, kicking dirt, and spitting through clenched teeth at umpires until you get tossed more times than anyone else doesn't have much of a correlation with winning. At least that's what I've found at BTB in my new column. So for those who want Maddon to turn into a Billy Martin reincarnate, it doesn't seem to have much affect on the team.

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Re: Not Mad
of course there are more losses in games in which a manager is ejected. isn't it obvious that  a manager is more likely to be upset when his team is losing. if the team is up 8-2, why would a manager go out and throw a fit over a close call?

You are assuming that an ejection can only have an effect on that particular game. those that want Maddon to be a bit more vocal at times believe that it can show the fans and more importantly the players that he cares about winning and that he has the players backs NOT that they think it will help the team rally in that one game. and if the players see how much the manager cares about them and about winning they are more likely to run through walls for the manager.

if you wanted to break it down a better way. look at how teams do when a manager is ejected in a tie game or even a 1-run game. or look at how teams do in the game immediately after an ejection or the 5-10 games after an ejection compared to the 5-10 games prior. I am still not sure those are good correlations but they would be better.

The Revolution has begun...

by Devil Ray Guevara on Feb 3, 2008 6:58 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Following 10 games
Taking the top two and a handful of mediocre teams:

Braves:
April 22 LWL WWL WLW W 6-4
May 6 LWW WWW LLW L 6-4
May 26 LLW LWW WLL W 5-5
June 23 LWW WWW LLL W 6-4
23-17 58%(season: 52%)

Phillies:
May 1 LWL WLL WWW L 6-4
May 23 LWW WLL LLW W 5-5
June 1 WWL WWW LWL W 7-3
June 17 LWL WLW WLW L 4-6
22-18 55% (season: 55%)

Astros:
April 13 LWW WWW LLL L 5-5
May 11 WWW WLL WLL L 5-5
June 8 WLL WLL WWW L 5-5
15-15 50% (season: 45%)

Twins:
May 5 LWL LLL WLL L 2-8
June 26 LWW WLL LWL W 5-5
7-13 35% (season: 49%)

Jays:
April 21 LWW WLL WWL L 5-5
June 27 LLL LWL WWL W 4-6
July 20 WWW WWL LWL W 7-3
16-14 53% (season: 51%)

by R.J. Anderson on Feb 3, 2008 8:29 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Not Mad
Although entertaining for some fans, I thought 2003 Lou Piniella put this argument to rest.

About the only time I've seen a coaching tantrum have any possible effect would be a college coach (basketball, maybe baseball) getting a technical or tossed.  I would like to think professional players are beyond the point of needing their coach to throw a fit in order to play better.

by RATW on Feb 3, 2008 7:35 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Not Mad
I would like to think professional players are beyond the point of needing their coach to throw a fit in order to play better.

of course you would like to...but do you really think this is true? would Delmon Young have run out   a few more ground balls if he was playing for Lou Piniella or another manager that he had respect for?

either way, I dont think Piniella is a good example, because he is often abusive of his players. so in his case players may play harder, but it is out of fear, not out of respect.

The Revolution has begun...

by Devil Ray Guevara on Feb 3, 2008 7:52 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Not Mad
"of course you would like to...but do you really think this is true? would Delmon Young have run out   a few more ground balls if he was playing for Lou Piniella or another manager that he had respect for?"

Tamargo was a dumb ass hard ass and that didn't seem to stop Dukes nor Delmon from doing whatever the hell they wanted.

by R.J. Anderson on Feb 3, 2008 8:01 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Not Mad
it is different in the minors. nobody expect to be playing for that particular manager for very long. in the managers you might have to answer to the same  guy for 5 or 6 or more years.
The Revolution has begun...

by Devil Ray Guevara on Feb 3, 2008 9:13 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Not Mad
I really don't think that should excuse Delmon's actions, and I'll cite Bill Evers as an example who is seemingly liked as both a minor league manager and a major league coach.

by R.J. Anderson on Feb 3, 2008 9:23 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Not Mad
I am not excusing his actions at all. my point was only that I really doubt it would have happened with Piniella at the helm.

And by no means am I endorsing Piniella as the perfect manager. He goes too far quite often. I have seen it argued that the Rays would have been better off with Piniella coming in after Maddon instead of before Maddon and I tend to agree. When the team is ready to win, it might be time for a new voice and as bobr cites, often that new voice is better if it is at the other extreme.

The Revolution has begun...

by Devil Ray Guevara on Feb 3, 2008 9:31 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Not Mad
That's very possible, call it the Buck Showalter switch - he builds the team then gets canned before they win a world title - minus the Rangers of course.

by R.J. Anderson on Feb 3, 2008 9:34 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Not Mad
I doubt there is a generalization that makes much sense on the question of whether a manager needs to be more fiery or more pugnacious to earn players' respect. Successful managers have run the gamut from mild mannered to ferocious.

In "Bill James Guide to Baseball Managers", he points out that often what is really needed on a team is a change from one type to the other when a particular personality begins to wear on the players or ceases to be effective any more. So it probably has little to do with whether a manager gets tossed a lot and a lot more to do with whether he fits a particular team at a particular time.

I think Maddon has been the perfect personality for the Rays over the past two years. I am sure not every player has responded to him, but in his overall approach to the team and how to build it, I think he brings exactly the right combination of brains, toughness, intensity, optimism and nurturing. Whether he is able to translate that into winning now that that goal is nearer remains to be seen, but he certainly has earned the chance.

Incidentally, James points out in his introduction that of the 25 greatest managers of all time, 18 were alcoholics. I cannot testify to the accuracy of the statement or whether the 25 he selects are legitimately the top 25, but it should give pause when we assume we can know cause and effect between a particular trait and success.

Personally, I dislike managers who throw public tantrums. I find them laughable and cannot imagine anyone thinks they are "watching their back" when they do it or that they are inspiring the players to try harder. But I am sure others feel quite differently, and my guess is the same holds for players on any team, some of whom might respond to displays of temper and others who likely are alienated by it.

by bobr on Feb 3, 2008 9:10 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Not Mad
Interesting point from James regarding the high rate of alcoholics, but I'm curious how many positions you could say that about - would it shock anyone if they found out that of the top 25 pitchers of all time 15 were alcoholics?

Each manager is going to have his detractors and supporters in the clubhouse. Apparently Delmon wasn't too fond of Maddon, but even Danny Bautista once questioned Delmon's respect - not love - of the game and people involved and that was over a single month spent together.

This really wasn't intended to turn into a Delmon v. Maddon debate, but considering the murmurs started last off-season about Delmon being dealt I don't think it has as much to do with his blow up with Joe as it does with the Rays wanting to acquire other positions of talent.

by R.J. Anderson on Feb 3, 2008 9:32 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Not Mad
Personally, I dislike managers who throw public tantrums. I find them laughable and cannot imagine anyone thinks they are "watching their back" when they do it or that they are inspiring the players to try harder. But I am sure others feel quite differently, and my guess is the same holds for players on any team, some of whom might respond to displays of temper and others who likely are alienated by it.

I have no problem with a manager throwing a tantrum (within reason of course) if it distracts an umpire from a player who is about to get tossed.  That's simply taking one for the team.

by ttnorm on Feb 3, 2008 10:23 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Not Mad
Unless, of course, that player is Josh Paul.

by R.J. Anderson on Feb 3, 2008 10:29 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Not Mad
I enjoy analysis of things that really can't be statistically analyzed, in this case the correlation between a manager's proclivity to be ejected and team success.  I happen to agree with bobr's assessment of the subject in general and his take on Maddon in particular.  My own sense is that managers get ejected for one of the following reasons, sometimes more than one within the same event:

1.  they are trying to make a point with an umpire to get them to think about future calls
2,  they are trying to show leadership

  1.  they are trying to defend a player
  2.  they are trying to deflect heat from a player, so that player doesn't get ejected
  3.  they are making a general statement of protest, and in so doing fire up their team
  4.  they are frustrated and want to lash out, but with no purpose
  5.  they want to leave the game early for some reason
  6.  they are showing off
  7.  they are by nature insecure and/or defensive
There are other reasons, I'm sure, but you get the point:  not all reasons are created equal, and some have strategic value, while others don't.  Many managers at least use the tool to try to achieve some good (reasons 1-5); but some hotheads--Lou was one of them--just lost credibility every time they yell about something...these guys usually get ejected for reasons 6 through 9.

But does it really matter why they do it?  Does getting ejected for any reason help the team to win?  In a game situation, I'd say no.  Over the course of a season, probably not either, since ejections occur so rarely anyway.  

Keep in mind that for every time a manager gets ejected, he probably storms out of the dugout 30 times to argue something.  The correlation to team success and leadership--if there is any at all--lies in when the manager protests something, and how he protests the issue, rather than whether he is actually ejected for it.  

Maddon, by all accounts, is a reasonable man, well spoken, thinks things through.  He has an excellent relationship with umpires, treats them respectfully.  Thus, when he protests something, they tend to respect him, and in some way, his message comes across more effectively.   That is his style.  In my view, that's also just being smart; at the same time, it sets a good example for his players.  Not all players, mind you--some do not respond to this approach, just as not all unruly students respect an excellent teacher.  But on the whole, he knows what he's doing here, better than most, and likely can achieve better long term outcomes as a result.

Thus, I repeat my thesis:  this topic is best studied in a psych lab, rather than with statistics, as the lack of conclusiveness in the data set clearly shows.  But I like the effort.  Interesting.

.  comes out of the may can see that many of these reasons are intended to

by Calif on Feb 3, 2008 11:05 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Not Mad
(...in that last post, I forgot to edit the last line, which makes no sense....sorry, just ignore the line...)

by Calif on Feb 3, 2008 11:08 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Not Mad
There is a fine line that a manager needs to walk in reguards to "throwing a tantrum".  Players need to know, especially young players, that the manager wants to win as bad as they do.  Once in a while, as a manager, when the time is right you need to go out and light a fire under your team.  Let them know that you are just as involved as they are.
I liken it to a fight in hockey.  Sometimes you just need someone to go out there and grab some momentum and give it to his team.  And from time to time, when the players aren't doing it, it has to be the manager.
Dan White

by Raysthebarthisyear on Feb 4, 2008 12:02 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Not Mad
Getting angry or mad to defend you team is OK but when it comes to spitting, throwing things, kicking dirt on Umpires you have gone to far.  They have to remember that children are in the stands and watching from the TV.  We don't want them to think that Dukes was a good guy and that this is how they should play the game.

by CharlieRay on Feb 4, 2008 6:54 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Not Mad
I am only for manager madness in the rare, yet priceless, occasion where a rosin bag is hurled like a hand grenade, followed by a soldier crawl near the mound.  I don't know who that guy was but God bless him.  I'm sure he's out of baseball at this point.  If you don't know who I am referring to, look up the crazy manager on youtube.  

by stpetelawyer on Feb 4, 2008 1:00 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

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