DRaysBay: An SB Nation Community

Navigation: Jump to content areas:



Around SBN: Phillies trade for OF Matt Stairs Bar-right-arrows



Wouldn't It Be Nice to Have Josh Hamilton Back?

ok, not to rant and rave, but I am actually semi-upset about the handling of our OF situation. don't get me wrong, i think that front office is doing a fine team overhauling this team, putting us in a situation to be perennial winners. but, as of right now, we have no legitimate right fielder, not a single one. sure, we have a bunch of "right fielders", but no one should should be out there on any sort of consistent basis. at one point we have ridiculous depth out there, and i know we still have some, but most isn't major league ready, leaving us in the situation we are in now. now, you might say, well we had Rocco. yes, we did, we always have, but if i thought for one minute that the front office was hinging their plans on having Rocco in RF, then i would be terribly disappointed in their lack of realistic foresight. no, but i believe they knew the same thing we all did, that Rocco was never a sure thing, and that plans need to be made to take that into account.

but instead, what do we do? we don't protect Josh Hamilton, which though at the time may have seemed like not a big deal, this is a man we put millions  of dollars and years and years and years of investment into, and just as he was really getting his stuff together, we fail to protect him? and now he's  (i know spring training stats don't mean much, but the guy is for real)hitting over .500, has the most RBI's amongst all hitters, and an slugging % over 1. amazing. he might become what we always thought he would become, and looking back it seems like a major major gaffe to not protect him.

secondly, we trade Delmon Young, which was fine with me, b/c at the time i assumed we had a possibly healthy Rocco, and if not then a high-ceiling Dukes waiting to take over.

but then we trade Dukes, which was probably a good move, he probably never would have gotten his life back together here in Tampa, and we got good value in return.

which leaves us with Rocco, who we now know, and probably always knew, even if we tried to convince ourselves that this was the year for him, was never going to play, or at least not play often. now we're down to a platoon of poor fielders and specialty hitters, and have a huge gaping hole not only in our lineup, but in our field.

what i'm getting at is this. trading Young and Dukes were good moves, they probably had to be done. but it's the move we didn't make that could really haunt us now, as all it would have taken was a small sacrifice, which given the sacrafice the team already made to him would seem like a forgone conclusion, for a possible large reward, but we didn't do it.

and now, we're stuck in the situation we are in, all b/c we lacked the most basic and obvious foresight.

0 recs | Comment 28 comments

Story-email Email | Print |

Comments

Display:

Re: Wouldn't It Be Nice to Have John Hamilton Back
You can't really prepare for losing what could amount to an entire starting outfield (Dukes in LF, Rocco in CF, Delmon in RF).  I wouldn't call that a lack of foresight, but just bad luck.  Leaving Hamilton unprotected was still the right move at the time.
www.lbacentral.com

by SeanDubbs on Mar 14, 2008 12:03 PM EDT   0 recs

Re: Wouldn't It Be Nice to Have Josh Hamilton Back
If it was a mistake to expose Hamilton to the rule V draft it was not for the reasons usually given. In terms of his performances to that point and his history, it could be justified with no problem. At an advanced age, he not only played very poorly in rookie league ball but once again got injured for a good part of the season. There was nothing in his past 4 years to suggest that any team would keep him on the 25 man roster. In fact it was not the Reds who drafted him but the Cubs who then sold him to Cincinnati, so the Rays were not alone in assuming he was not major league material yet.

The real error was that the Rays kept some players on the 40 man who clearly had no future with them, including Tomas Perez who was later released as everyone knew he would be. So given his physical talent, it probably would have been prudent to keep him instead of obviously useless players. I have never heard an explanation of why the Rays did that nor can I figure one out; it seems as if they were careless. But the odds of it biting them were really rather long.

Incidentally, at age 25 in 2006, in short season rookie league ball, Hamilton managed to get into 15 games and 50 ABs. Partly that was because the Rays were going slow as he had not played for 3 full years up to that point, but it did not help since he then got hurt missing the rest of the year. His line was .260/.327/.360 with 3 doubles and 0 home runs.

In 2002, he was demoted from AA ball where in 89 ABs he had hit .180/.221/.236 the previous year. At A+ ball that year he did hit well but then began the string of suspensions and injuries that wiped out 3 years.

Mistake to expose him, yes. But there is no reason to dwell on it. Why anyone would expect him to stick in the majors after that record is mystifying, and the fact that he did makes the move a mistake but not a stupid decision.

by bobr on Mar 14, 2008 1:18 PM EDT   0 recs

Re: Wouldn't It Be Nice to Have Josh Hamilton Back
Bob, you made some excellent points that are the exact reason why I was upset with the Hamilton/Rule 5 fiasco.  If they had some other players with talent that had to be protected, then you could understand leaving Hamilton off the roster.  

You mentioned Tomas Perez, and I believe the other 2 players they left on were Damon Hollins and Travis Harper.  Not only were all 3 of these players left on the roster, but they were subsequently waived or released follwing the draft.  Why not waive them prior to the Rule 5 draft and protect Hamilton???

by td32 on Mar 14, 2008 1:33 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Wouldn't It Be Nice to Have Josh Hamilton Back
With the way the DRO has been handling the bad eggs they may have intentionally left him exposed and did a fist pump when the Cubs snagged him.  The distraction Hamilton causes is still there.  Last season, the Reds had someone shadow him 24/7 to make sure he wouldn't get into any trouble.  He has to limit the amount of money he carries on him in order to avoid the temptation of going off into an alley and buying smack.  Not the kind of character guy you'd like in your organization.
www.lbacentral.com

by SeanDubbs on Mar 14, 2008 2:30 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Wouldn't It Be Nice to Have Josh Hamilton Back
are you kidding? the guy is a model citizen now. he preaches to little Christian kids, works with charity, and does inspirational speeches about the danger of drugs? where the hell did you get your ridiculous information that he is constantly tempted to run to a back alley and buy some crack?

by davidsmarch on Mar 14, 2008 2:46 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Wouldn't It Be Nice to Have Josh Hamilton Back
"are you kidding? the guy is a model citizen now. he preaches to little Christian kids, works with charity, and does inspirational speeches about the danger of drugs? where the hell did you get your ridiculous information that he is constantly tempted to run to a back alley and buy some crack?"

Sean's been here a while, and from his work at the academy he has tons of sources within numerous organizations.

For the record, he did fail out of rehab numerous times and preaching / giving inspirational speeches does little to account for his true character. Public perception yes, true character no.

by R.J. Anderson on Mar 14, 2008 2:54 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Wouldn't It Be Nice to Have Josh Hamilton Back
The info came straight from Hamilton during his slew of interviews he gave last season as a feel good story.  And as RJ mentions, my work with the academy gives me a ton of inside dirt on players that I have never repeated, since I'm not a journalist and would like to remain friends with all my contacts.

Model citizens don't need a shadow.

www.lbacentral.com

by SeanDubbs on Mar 14, 2008 4:27 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Wouldn't It Be Nice to Have Josh Hamilton Back
you're telling me in an interview that he gave last year he said: "I have to limit the amount of money I carry in order to avoid the temptation of going off into an alley to buy smack."

?

by davidsmarch on Mar 14, 2008 4:38 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Wouldn't It Be Nice to Have Josh Hamilton Back
I'm trying to find the article for you, I only have about 300 to scan through.  I'm even trying to dig through my old ESPN The Magazine's to find it since that's where I believe I read it.

I never post things that are not true.  I post opinions as everyone else does, but even in past steroid conversations on the site I refused to accuse one player of juicing unless they had a prior positive test.  I have speculated on certain players that fit pre-determined outlines, but never just accused out of suspicion and would not do so even in this case.

In the meantime, lets look at some facts when it comes to Hamilton.

  • On his last leg in baseball, has had approximately six strikes already
  • Had two teams give up on him within one year
  • Has contemplated suicide on many occasions
  • Has difficulty staying healthy (wonder why)
  • Reds took a chance on a personal level that just happened to work out
  • Deserted his wife and kids
  • Has constantly needed someone to watch his back all his life, and every time that support system has left he has crumbled
  • Has frequently shown that he is given a choice between right and wrong, he runs to the dark side
  • Yelled rude comments towards the DRO at last years draft despite all that the Rays had done for him in the past
There's more on my list that I could add, and common sense (and even a rap song) will tell you more money, more problems.  A drug dealer isn't in business to get you high, he's in business to make money.  If you don't have cash to buy smack, you don't have smack to smoke.  Kinda simple once you break it down.
www.lbacentral.com

by SeanDubbs on Mar 14, 2008 5:05 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Wouldn't It Be Nice to Have Josh Hamilton Back
This is just one of the articles.  It's not word for word with what I said, but I know it's out there and I'll find it eventually.  Apology accepted.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2926447

www.lbacentral.com

by SeanDubbs on Mar 14, 2008 7:56 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

And to make it easier...
"Johnny Narron, my former manager's brother, is a big part of my recovery. He's the Reds' video coordinator, and he once coached me in fall baseball when I was 15. He looks after me on the road. When they pass out meal money before a trip -- always in cash -- they give mine to Johnny, and he parcels it out to me when I need it."
www.lbacentral.com

by SeanDubbs on Mar 14, 2008 7:58 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: And to make it easier...
my god dude, how you manage to see what you see from that quote, how you read that it means that he needs his money controlled so he doesn't wander to some back alley and buy some smack is beyond me! i'm not apologizing for your gross misinterpretation of that quote.

by davidsmarch on Mar 14, 2008 8:29 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: And to make it easier...
It may be a somewhat melodramatic rendering of the meaning, but it is not a misinterpretation because that is exactly the point of addiction.

Every addict who is clean refers to himself as recovering, not as cured, no matter how long they stay away from the drug. In other words, they are constantly in need of some sort of support to keep from backsliding. In Hamilton's case, part of that support is being kept away from temptation by not having the money to indulge. He knows that should he be able to buy the drugs it is entirely possible he would.

He claims to have other assistance, but apparently that is not enough. In addition to his own resistance which he claims is inspired by his religious commitment, he requires a very practical brake-not having ready cash.

I have no comment on whether any of this proves one way or the other that he is a better person now or a reformed "bad character", but by his own admission he is never far away from returning to drugs. We may sympathize, but we have to recognize the risk exists.

by bobr on Mar 14, 2008 8:48 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Wouldn't It Be Nice to Have Josh Hamilton Back
we now know he was demoted from AA to A and started playing poorly b/c he was a drug addict. the Rays knew that, as of last year before the Rule V draft. sure he was 25 in SS ball, and didn't even hit all that well, but as you mentioned, he had been out of baseball for 3 years and that was his first exposure in a very long time. i remember thinking at the time that his numbers weren't all that great, but i also remember not expecting too much from him so soon after coming back from suspension, rehab, etc... did you really expect that he would put up monster numbers right away? i didn't, and i would expect the front office didn't either. all of which leads me back to my original problem of them leaving him unprotected.

by davidsmarch on Mar 14, 2008 2:27 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Wouldn't It Be Nice to Have Josh Hamilton Back
Again, the risk that he would be selected was small. Whoever did it would have to keep him on the 25 man roster all season or return him back to the Rays for 1/2 the $50,000 they paid to get him. It did not seem credible that anyone would keep him on the 25 man roster at the expense of another player. The chances were that he would not contribute, he would take a roster space of someone who might and maybe most important, if he still had his ability intact, he would not have an opportunity to develop it sitting on the end of the bench as the 25th player.

Again, I concede it was definitely a mistake, but that is in hindsight. Whether there were reasons we never heard for exposing him, perhaps along the line that Sean suggests, I don't know. But the point remains that he had been in the organization for 8 years, and there had been more disappointment than progress. He had been injured again and it seemed unlikely he could succeed in the majors in 2007. It's time to put it behind and move on.

Of course it would be nice to have him as an option, but the Cubs could say the same thing as could any other team that had a shot at him. It's not a terribly profitable speculation.

by bobr on Mar 14, 2008 2:41 PM EDT   0 recs

Re: Wouldn't It Be Nice to Have Josh Hamilton Back
The biggest miscalculation in the Hamilton non-protection was other teams interest.  My memory of how things happened is that he was selected as either the first or second selection in the Rule V.  And it's not that the Cubs selected Hamilton for themselves and then decided to trade him for something better to the Reds.  It's that the Reds had done their homework, wanted him really bad, and made a deal with the Cubs (because the Cubs had a very early pick) to select Hamilton FOR the Reds.  With the Cubs it was a pick and immediate trade to Reds in a pre-arranged deal.

I heard an interview with Hunsicker, where he basically admitted, that it was a mistake, and though they had discussed whether to protect Hamilton or not, they miscalculated and thought nobody would want him.   Obviously it was a huge miscalculation because he was taken as the first or second pick (as I recall).

  And I remember them releasing Damon Hollins only a few days after they'd lost Hamilton.  So they could have had space at that point in time.  Oh well.  Bob makes a good point that though, that the Rays didn't want him sitting on the bench when he could have been developing in the minors.

by pcbredemeier on Mar 14, 2008 3:01 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Wouldn't It Be Nice to Have Josh Hamilton Back
Hamilton doesn't have much of a clean bill of health either, it's not like he'd be playing 162 games right now.

by R.J. Anderson on Mar 14, 2008 3:11 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Wouldn't It Be Nice to Have Josh Hamilton Back
Yeah, you have to wonder why the Reds traded him.  Besides having sufficient OF players, maybe they thought last year's performance was the max trade value he'd have in the near future.

by pcbredemeier on Mar 14, 2008 3:35 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Wouldn't It Be Nice to Have Josh Hamilton Back
they did get a decent prospect in a starting pitcher for him.

by davidsmarch on Mar 14, 2008 4:23 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Wouldn't It Be Nice to Have Josh Hamilton Back
Yes, I think you are correct about the sequence, although as the Cubs could have kept him, and did not really have a star in center field at the time, it still raises the question of why they made the arrangement with the Reds. I suppose they might have been happy with their outfield depth in the system, but the point remains that they decided essentially to pass on him. At the time, I really thought the Reds were crazy to select him. Actually, I think I am right that had the Rays kept him he could have been sent back to the minors, but once selected, he could not be by his new team. Is that so?

As for the character issue mentioned above, I have not idea whether Hamilton has turned it around or whether he needs constant monitoring to keep him on track. But the fact of inspirational speeches and religious commitment is entirely irrelevant to the question. Aside from the fact that such activity and pronouncements are handy scams to demonstrate that someone has changed, there are innumerable examples of people who have done the same thing only to backslide. Gooden and Strawberry are just 2 noted examples; I knew a couple of less famous frauds in my neighborhood a few years ago. Even if the religious conversion is legitimate, there is no definitive connection between such conversion and character improvement.

by bobr on Mar 14, 2008 3:37 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Wouldn't It Be Nice to Have Josh Hamilton Back
Re: the trade

They have Jay Bruce coming up, along with Adam Dunn and Griffey their OF was pretty full.

While leaving Hamilton unprotected was a poor decision, at least we didn't leave Johan unprotected like the Astros. Worst decision ever?

by rglass44 on Mar 14, 2008 3:53 PM EDT   0 recs

Sean
Would you trade Hamilton straight up for any of our current Right Field candidates? I would even taking into account the relapse risk and character issues.

by TomT on Mar 14, 2008 9:48 PM EDT   0 recs

Re: Sean
If by candidates you mean Gomes or Floyd, then no.  If by candidate you mean anyone other than Gomes or Floyd I would say no.  This isn't the Vince and Chuck show anymore.  At this point he should be an everyday player, not a 5th outfielder.  We have a good offensive platoon with Gomes and Floyd, their splits suggest they could hit 30+ HRs between the two of them.  We only need the 5th outfielder for defense and days off.  He's not worth the headache.

Also, please keep in mind I have no respect or pity for drug addicts.  At some point in their life they had the opportunity to make the right decision.  They call it a disease which I disagree with.  Cancer is a disease, drug addiction is a choice.

Now, if you replace Hamilton with Bonds I would do it in a heartbeat.  He's still one of the top 5 hitters in baseball and if he meant a legitimate playoff run then he'd be worth the distraction.  Very hypocritical of me in some sense, but Hamilton can't post a .450 OBP and slug .700.

www.lbacentral.com

by SeanDubbs on Mar 14, 2008 11:55 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Wait a minute....
You have no respect or pity for drug addicts, to the point where being one would hamper their chances, if you were in charge, for making the team. Yet an indicted perjurer and drug abuser in his own right would have clear sailing?

I'm not going to advocate taking or shunning either player, but it would seem to me that morally objecting to one player while freely welcoming the other is inconsistent and, as you put it, hypocritical. I would think that there is a high probability that Hamilton would outperform any of our current right field candidates, however there is always the question concerning his ability to do so and stay healthy. It is up to you to weigh the risks.

As for your view of drug addicts, the only thing that I can say is that I vehemently disagree. While their struggles do ultimately result from a voluntary choice that they made at one point, any action taken by one to straighten up their life should be commended, and they should be assisted in their long and difficult struggle to recovery. Addiction is something painfully hard to overcome, and in my view it is a disease. You can call it 'their problem' and 'something of their choice' all you want, but instead of turning our backs on people who genuinely want to straighten out their life, we should be helping them along. Drug addiction is a disease, perhaps a self-inflicted one, but a disease nonetheless. And without offering up an opinion on Hamilton specifically, I tend to take a very sympathetic look to drug addicts wanting to turn themselves around.

by Patrick L. Kennedy on Mar 15, 2008 1:58 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Wait a minute....
I did call myself a hypocrite and I know that you're probably with the majority with your opinion on drug abuse.  I would sell my soul to Vince Namoli to make the playoffs.  Even at 43 Bonds would still be the most feared hitter in baseball while no team would pitch around Hamilton.  The choice of drugs between the two is like comparing Bourbon to Red Bull.

Would you try cocaine knowing what it could do to you?  In a more general sense, you could blame God for cancer, but not for smoking rocks.

www.lbacentral.com

by SeanDubbs on Mar 15, 2008 2:55 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Founded in February 2005

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

David_price_the_messiah_small
This is Garza Sign: The Remix....
Small
Cheers and Jeers for Tampa Bay Fans.
Small
No Doubt About It: A Horsesh*t Call

Recent FanPosts

Curlys-crew_small
FANTASY MLB TRANSACTIONS
Nolan_ryan_small
Got To Be Kidding Me
Amd_brawl_small
EJax in the stretch
Small
Oh Where'd you go Billy-O?
Small
MLB, umpire: Call against Aybar was wrong
Princeton02_small
Orioles vs. Rays
Logo_small
If you build it, they will come.
Small
Is there a conspiracy against the Rays??

Post_icon New FanPost All FanPosts Carrot-mini

FanShots

Quick hits of video, photos, quotes, chats, links and lists that you find around the web.

Recent FanShots

Obviously not concerned about potential tampering charges, the Yankees'...
Fan loses eye after being hit by ball
Sox-Sawx matchup
New website
Pennant Fever? Not Here
Question of the day: What are the Rays chances of winning 100 games? Any...
Projected 2008 Elias Player Ratings
Brian Fuentes is put on waivers!
Replay coming Friday to Trop
Vero Beach Devil Rays to Port Charlotte official

Post_icon New FanShot All FanShots Carrot-mini


Editors-in-Chief

Patavatar_small Patrick L. Kennedy

Maddonbearlo3_small R.J. Anderson

Associate Editor

Img_0143_small SaberToothedPie

ad

Site Meter