I have a question...
Would anyone here think that a person with the following stats would help the young Rays hitters. I would also like to know if one would pay to see a guy play with the following stats:
*a 7-time MVP
*a 14 time all star
*an 8 time gold glove award winner
*a 12 time silver slugger award winner
*a two time batting champion
*Lead the NL in OBP 10 times including last season
*a 7-time leader in SLG%
*9 times lead the league in OPS %
*Is the all time career leader in HR's and two time HR champion
* lead the league in walks 12 times, came in 2nd 4 times, and placed 3rd once.
How many more games do you think the Rays would win with a guy that puts up these kind of numbers in the line up?
And we ask should we sign Lofton! Pffffft!
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40 comments
Comments
Re: I have a question...
Not from his barcalounger
by ttnorm on Mar 16, 2008 9:54 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Re: I have a question...
by R.J. Anderson on Mar 16, 2008 11:16 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Re: I have a question...
by ttnorm on Mar 16, 2008 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: I have a question...
by thebaddancingraysfan on Mar 16, 2008 2:10 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Re: I have a question...
by R.J. Anderson on Mar 16, 2008 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: I have a question...
by thebaddancingraysfan on Mar 16, 2008 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: I have a question...
by ttnorm on Mar 16, 2008 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: I have a question...
by bobr on Mar 16, 2008 6:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: I have a question...
I think having Bonds in the same clubhouse as Percival might be fun. I think Percy just might have a few words for BB the first time BB informs Maddon that he is taking a day off.
by ttnorm on Mar 16, 2008 10:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: I have a question...
by R.J. Anderson on Mar 16, 2008 10:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: I have a question...
"We're here to win, and that's why you play the game. You don't play this game so you can build stats and get paid. I don't look at it that way. ... I don't care how much money you made. It's about going out as a team and winning. I was with a team [the 2002 Angels] that wasn't even close to one of the most talented teams in the league. But we were the best team in the game because we had 25 guys every day for one purpose."
Yeah, I can see him being a Barry guy. ;-)
On the other hand, the young guys can all aspire to Barry's ethos - "Baseball has not been fun since college." "It's just my job."
by ttnorm on Mar 16, 2008 10:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
To sound like a broken record
by R.J. Anderson on Mar 16, 2008 11:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: I have a question...
I think it perfectly legitimate to be concerned about his clubhouse influence, although there are contradictory views on the reality of that influence, the accuracy of media representations of Bonds and the significance of his influence. I remain unconvinced that any of us know the truth about the sort of man he is, but I am convinced that what we think we know is mediated through a vindictive, hypocritical and sensationalist press.
As for his recent performances, there is little doubt that his overall contributions have been limited by his limited playing time. But in that playing time, he has maintained an exceptionally high level of play. Anyone who finishes with these lines, .270/.454/.545 & .276/.480/.565 is playing at an historically high level. And to go with it are OPS+s of 156 & 170, as well as 26 & 28 home runs. This is in a not inconsiderable 130 & 126 games with 367 & 340 ABs, which when added to 115 & 132 walks plus a few HBPs is near 500 PAs. And notice that with all those walks, he still only struck out 51 & 54 times.
We are not talking remarkable for an old player. We are talking remarkable for any player, with a possibility that DH duties would extend his playing time. If he could produce that way while getting 400 PAs for the Rays, he would dramatically improve the offense.
Again, I am not convinced it would be a good signing. But there is no way to observe his actual production without recognizing that it remains brilliant.
by bobr on Mar 16, 2008 11:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: I have a question...
by ttnorm on Mar 16, 2008 11:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: I have a question...
If I may alter the approach a bit, I will assert that considering purely his offensive contributions, whoever Bonds would replace on the roster would not come close to what Bonds would contribute.
You may make any number of reasonable points that a lineup with a RF platoon of Gomes/Floyd with a DH of Bonds is not an optimum use of Gomes and Floyd. You may reasonably argue that even at DH we cannot be sure Bonds will manage 400 PAs, and even if he does, that leaves quite a few to other players. But no matter what configuration available or projected now, even if you include Willits, you cannot reasonably argue it would come
close to matching the offensive output of Gomes/Floyd/Bonds.
Whoever Bonds would replace on the roster-Hinske, Weber, Rodriguez-Guzman-you name him-Bonds will contribute more runs to the Rays' offense. Barring injury, I think that is incontrovertible.
That does not mean the Rays should sign him. There are possible cascade effects to account for. But Bonds remains a powerful offensive force, in my mind a brilliant offensive player.
As I said
by bobr on Mar 16, 2008 11:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: I have a question...
by bobr on Mar 16, 2008 11:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: I have a question...
There is never a guarantee that a guy his age has anything left.
There is plenty of objective evidence that he is a me first prima donna and a liar which runs squarely into the teeth of Maddon's philosophy. (Yeah, I know, the liar part is what you admire him for). Of course Maddon, Percy, Andrew et al should bow down for the prividge of playing along side of 'history's greatest player'. We Are One Team! (sometimes).
Eric Hinske had a higher RC in his rookie season than Bonds has had since 2004.
I believe that Friedman has stated that he would like to address this situation.
There is nothing incontrovertible about adding Bonds to the to this team.
by ttnorm on Mar 17, 2008 7:12 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: I have a question...
The vicious, law-breaking, drug and alcohol addled, wife abusing, child deserting, out of shape, prima dona, me-first, irresponsible, rules violating, injury-prone, insubordinate, team & league multiply suspended S.O.Bs like Ruth and Mantle (I am not sure that Mantle was suspended) were negative influences on their team's ability to win. Or perhaps they were more admirable than Bonds?
by bobr on Mar 17, 2008 8:52 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: I have a question...
Now you have me confused with someone else. I have never said anything of the sort. I merely challenged your "incontovertible" notion that Bond's addition would be a plus. That's not how I see it. It is entirely possible that Bonds could help the team. But there are plenty of objective reasons to doubt it.
I'd actually support the notion of signing Bonds to a minor league deal with enough incentives to get him to $8-10MM if he can revert to his 2004 form. I am sure the Durham fans would get a kick out of seeing him.
But I am not anxious see the Rays have to eat Floyd's contract or play Floyd in RF for 100+ games. His 2005 season also had a higher RC than Bond's has had since 2004. Of course he is not the greatest player in history so he can be thrown under the bus for Bonds.
by ttnorm on Mar 17, 2008 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: I have a question...
On the contrary, you have wildly exaggerated my points into a kind of farcical rendering, as in the statements above: "I merely challenged your "incontovertible" notion that Bond's addition would be a plus." & "Of course he is not the greatest player in history so he can be thrown under the bus for Bonds." As a matter of fact, as you can see from my other posts, not only have I never said that his addition would "incontrovertibly" be a plus (only that his offensive production would be, something quite different), but that I am not even sure he should be signed. I have repeated that hesitancy over and over.
Part of the reason for my hesitancy is that I want to see Floyd get plenty of at-bats, although from a purely offensive standpoint, I think the chances of him outperforming Bonds as a DH are slight. But purely from an emotional standpoint, I would be unhappy to see him superceded by Bonds.
I was waiting for your posts (before the grudging effort in the last one) to do more than attack the character and qualities of Bonds. I was waiting for some recognition that he is among the greatest players in history, in any short list of a discussion of the greatest of all time, and that despite his lessened playing time he has remained an immensely productive hitter the past 2 years. One can say that without sponsoring his signing. But, having said it, one has at least to weigh the pros and cons, demonstrate a recognition that it is not a gimme decision, in asserting one's opinion.
What made it all the more peculiar to me is that I have never read one article by any analyst or scout that did not assert categorically that Bonds remained a great offensive force, still among the best in the majors. I have read many articles questioning other aspects of his play and influence, some positive, many negative. But even his most ardent critics, even the Bonds' haters, admitted to his offensive prowess the past 2 years. Yet in every post, you saw fit to downgrade that factor, ignoring OBP, ignoring Slugging, seeking to discover ways to suggest he was not producing. Even that is ok so long as the obvious truth of his performance is recognized, but no, not even that.
You may very reasonably object to what you may think is my hyperbole. I would certainly reconsider my language if you make a good case. But I am touchy about my points being misrepresented, exaggerated and taken out of context. You don't think his performance recently has been brilliant? Fine. But before dismissing him, demonstrate some appreciation for what he still does with the bat and incorporate that into your reasoning.
by bobr on Mar 17, 2008 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: I have a question...
Let me be clear, I absolutely question that Bonds offensive production would be a plus. OBP means little when the guy can't make it onto the field as often as Bonds. The point stands that Floyd's has the most superior recent season in 2005. To me Floyd has the higher current ceiling. Floyd doesn't inform the team when he takes days off like Bonds. Floyd is younger. Even Hinske's ceiling exceeds Bonds at this stage. Further Bonds chances of a sharp dropoff in his current level couldn't be much higher.
I was waiting for your posts (before the grudging effort in the last one) to do more than attack the character and qualities of Bonds. I was waiting for some recognition that he is among the greatest players in history, in any short list of a discussion of the greatest of all time, and that despite his lessened playing time he has remained an immensely productive hitter the past 2 years. One can say that without sponsoring his signing. But, having said it, one has at least to weigh the pros and cons, demonstrate a recognition that it is not a gimme decision, in asserting one's opinion.
You are too hung up on the hero worship angle. None of Bonds past performance should have relevance in his signing. His projection is all that matters. We disagree sharply that he has been "historically" productive in the last 2 seasons. Nobody with an RC in the 50s and Total Bases in the 150's can rationally make this claim.
But I am touchy about my points being misrepresented, exaggerated and taken out of context. You don't think his performance recently has been brilliant? Fine. But before dismissing him, demonstrate some appreciation for what he still does with the bat and incorporate that into your reasoning.
I don't think I have misrepresented any of your points. All you can come up with is some mumbo jumbo distinction about whether his addion or his production would be a plus.
Finally, I don't need to appreciate anything about Barry Bonds, thank you very much. He appreciates himself enough for all of us.
by ttnorm on Mar 17, 2008 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: I have a question...
And saying Hinske's ceiling is higher than Bonds at this point is absolutely absurd. A 50 year old Bonds is better than Eric Hinske.
by Tyler on Mar 18, 2008 12:41 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: I have a question...
by ttnorm on Mar 18, 2008 8:18 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: I have a question...
_________________btRuns Adjusted Batting Runs - This is the linear weights method pioneered by Pete Palmer. It is a bit more accurate than Runs Created and also handles differing offensive environments more easily. It is adjusted to the park and league the player played in. It is also relative to league average, so negative values mean they were below average for the league. In my calculations, I consider league average without pitchers included. See the ESPN Baseball Encyclopedia for a full description.
btWins - Batting Wins - Another Pete Palmer tool, this measures the number of wins a player added relative to the league average hitter. See the ESPN Baseball Encyclopedia for a full description.
__________________
Note the phrase "It is a bit more accurate than Runs Created...." in the comparison of adjusted batting runs to RC. Now here are the stats:
Bonds in 2006: ABR: 39.3; Hinske: -0.2
BW: 3.6; 0
Bonds in 2007: ABR: 46.1; Hinske: -5
BW: 4.3 -0.5
Incidentally, the numbers for Floyd in those 2 years are -5.6 & -.5 in 2006 and 1.2 & .1 in 2007.
And for Crawford, the numbers are 8.6 & .8 in 2006 and 12.6 & 1.2 in 2007.
by bobr on Mar 18, 2008 10:23 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: I have a question...
It is true that in 2002, Hinske had an RC of 104 which came to 6.5 per game. In the past two years, Bonds has had RCs of 98 & 99, and RCs per game of 9.4 & 10.2. It really is a stretch to suggest that Hinske's small advantage in one category, obviously a result of getting almost 200 more plate appearances, outweighs the mountain of evidence on the other side. And as for plate appearances, the role expected of either Bonds or Hinske would almost certainly call for 500 or fewer PAs, a range well within Bonds' recent performance, so Barry's huge per game advantage, even in that lesser stat, trumps Hinske small advantage elsewhere.
Additionally, in that, his best year, Hinske's adjusted batting runs was 17.3 and his batting wins 1.6, neither close to what Bonds has done the past 2 years.
There is no question that durability is an issue with Bonds given his age. But he has actually not been particularly fragile, playing in considerably more games and with considerably more plate appearances than Floyd, for example. In fact, he had only 68 fewer plate appearances than Upton in 2007.
Note: I say this as one who was thrilled with the signing of Floyd (he was my first choice among the available lefties on the Rays' radar at the time) and also very happy with the Hinske signing. I have high hopes that both will be significant contributors this year.
by bobr on Mar 18, 2008 10:52 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: I have a question...
Durability advantage counts. RC27 identifies up and coming players, not declining veterans. RC27 doesn't win games, RC does. Hinske will be there whenever Maddon puts him in the lineup. Even if we assume that Maddon would only want to use Bonds for 500 PAs (odd considering that this is the greatest player in history), the chances are that Bonds is not up to it and further we know that Bonds will decide which PAs he is fit for and which he is not. That doesn't win games either.
Bonds is a crash and burn candidate if there ever was one.
by ttnorm on Mar 18, 2008 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: I have a question...
Projection for this season and beyond is all that counts. Hinske has established a existing ceiling. We don't have to hope that he can someday get to that level (like the Sonny discussion), we know that he can. Further at his age, we know that he will never be more capable of prime production than right now. Players have bad years for lots of reasons, injuries, being blocked by better players, Hinske has had all of that. If he is healthy and given an opportunity this season, he is a prime candidate to achieve a level that Bonds has not since 2004.
Of course, it is possible that his game has will not recover, but I haven't heard or seen anything in his game/approach that would cause concern so far.
Hinske will likely never be an all star, but he has shown that he can be an effective MLBer.
Bonds, leaving aside the barcalounger, the discretionary days off, the lying, and all the other negatives that the Rays would have to deal with, is clearly on the downhill side of his abilities. He is much more likely on the cusp of a precipitious falloff than a maintenance of his current level.
All in all, I'd spend the payroll on Hinske any day of the week.
by ttnorm on Mar 18, 2008 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: I have a question...
Because his stats still show he was a highly capable hitter as of last season. And Bonds has been a better hitter than anyone in the history of the game in his late 30's early 40's. You can argue all day the reasons behind that, but the fact of the matter is that he did things last season that. Since 1993, he has only had an OPS under 1.000 once and that was in 06' when it was .999. He may well decline, but he's doing what no one else has ever done and isn't really comparable to anyone else in the history of the game. I'd be willing to be my life savings that given the same number of at bats, Bonds out produces Hinske by 50 points in OBP and 50 points in SLG.
by Tyler on Mar 18, 2008 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: I have a question...
by ttnorm on Mar 18, 2008 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: I have a question...
by Tyler on Mar 18, 2008 6:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: I have a question...
A) 43 years old, B) has a history of needing extra recovery time, and C) has a history of steroids use.
Bonds has all 3.
by ttnorm on Mar 18, 2008 10:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: I have a question...
Because he is an very, very old man.
by ttnorm on Mar 18, 2008 8:20 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: I have a question...
by td32 on Mar 17, 2008 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: I have a question...
There are far more positives to signing Bonds than negatives. I'll buy season tix to see Barry play. With the talk of Longoria & Neimann back in Durham there will be less of a fan base as it is. These are the players fans want to see play. It's time for management to do what the fans want for a change. Who the heck cares to see Aybar play? No one. Who wants to see Bonds, Neimann, Longoria? Everyone. Let's see what they got man. Put 'em in!
This team needs to win & it need to put fannies in the stands.
SIGN BARRY BONDS!
by J-Miester on Mar 16, 2008 6:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: I have a question...
by R.J. Anderson on Mar 16, 2008 6:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: I have a question...
The only issue is whether he can help the team win, and as odd as this statement may seem, I am not so sure he can. I have little doubt he would improve the offense, but there are ripple effects of signing him, some his doing probably and others simply surrounding him or resulting from his presence, that might be negative.
by bobr on Mar 17, 2008 9:00 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: I have a question...
I think a major point that many are missing is that Bonds would assuredly bring something back at the trade deadline. So if we pay him $10M for a season we would only be on the hook for about 6, and we could get another prospect back in return.
With all this said I hope we can trade some package of E-Jax, Hammel, or Guzman to the Angels for Willits. The guy plays all over, plays smart, hard, and flies on the bases. Batting leadoff he would score 100+ runs. I am not that sold on Aki with all those K's leading off, but this will be his second time through the league so you would have to think that will improve.
Lastly, do not trade Sonny for anyone. The kid screams Maddux to me. Superb control with 6 pitches, and a variety of arm angles he will benefit the most on this staff by the improved defense.
by Sandy Kazmir on Mar 17, 2008 11:21 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: I have a question...
I have to agree with keeping Sonnanstine, he's the only pitcher of the 3 mentioned (EJax, Hammel) who doesn't kill himself every other outing by walking hitters.
My big question is name those 6 pitches?
1-FASTBALL
2-CURVEBALL
3-SPLITTER
4-SLIDER
5-CHANGE UP
6-SCREWBALL? OR IS IT THE VASELINE BALL? SPITTER?
by J-Miester on Mar 17, 2008 7:51 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Re: I have a question...
Fastball
Curve
Slider
Change
Splitter
Cutter
by R.J. Anderson on Mar 17, 2008 10:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: I have a question...
He seems to me like a guy that knows how to pitch, someone mentioned it in another post about him throwing the same pitch 2-2, and 3-2. He just knows how to pitch. After watching guys like Big Red and Dewan, with all the talent in the world, but no idea how to pitch, it is nice to see a bulldog that isn't afraid to challenge hitters. I am not saying he will be sliced bread this first year, but he seems like a guy that could pay off 10x with a little patience.
by Sandy Kazmir on Mar 17, 2008 11:59 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

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