Big Dreams
Tomorrow is Friday, the second of May here in 2008. The Tampa Bay Rays are in first place of the American League East. Re-read that. Again, cherish it, our little team is graduating high school, now onto the real world. Although hopefully a small victory in our next few months there's something mind blowing about this team being in first place after a little more than a month of play.
Scott Kazmir hasn't taken the mound and Carl Crawford hasn't been good, but the bullpen is the best in the league (ERA wise at least) and the rotation features a shockingly healthy battle between three -- at worst -- league average starters with an upcoming decision not based on who would add value by being dropped, but rather which offers the least positive value at this point.
More and more Rays gear is being worn and bought around town and by all indications the doubters are starting to go to the park in order to question Joe Maddon's philosophies instead of staying home. So why does this all feel a tad bittersweet? I guess the truth was always that some locals would change colors quicker than a chameleon once the franchise reached that point, but are we at that point?
This team is no longer our little secret, no matter what happens from here, whether this weekend ends our first place hopes or not, we've learned something. This organization is legitimate, and it's proving that in the only remaining way it can: winning.
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And because the radio played it today:
So many times, it happens too fast
You change your passion for glory
Don’t lose your grip on the dreams of the past
You must fight just to keep them alive
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on May 1, 2008 10:55 PM EDT 0 recs
????
Crawford has not been good? Maybe I have been watching a different CC. He has been key to a number of our victories over the last two and a half weeks.
by RaysTheRoof on May 1, 2008 11:30 PM EDT 0 recs
His OBP is .301, his OPS+ is below 100
That’s not the Carl Crawford we’ve come to expect, and it’s not even a league average player.
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on
May 1, 2008 11:36 PM EDT
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CC is more than the sum of his OPS
Not even league average?!? And not a word form our sabremetric guru bob, you know the one who tells us that sabre guys are the true skeptics and don’t make sweeping statements. Hogwash! Just because sabre guys haven’t a clue how to incorporate speed into their numbers doesn’t mean that CC is league average or even close to it.
by ttnorm on
May 2, 2008 12:10 AM EDT
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The facts
Currently Crawford is not a league average player, and the facts hold up that assertion. His OPS is bound to rise after his performance today, no doubt, but coming in Crawford’s OPS was barely over .700 and his OBP was barely over .300. That’s terrible. He has struck out five times for every one time that he has walked, and he has seven extra base hits in 123 PAs. I’m sorry, but that’s awful and it’s not the type of performance that I come to expect of Carl Crawford.
He’s not even league average right now, that’s entirely correct. He’s been terrible offensively and he’s had terrible plate appearances. His defense has been fine, and as you pointed out, his speed is as tremendous as always. But offensively, he’s more often than not been a whole at the top of the lineup. That isn’t to say that I believe this trend will hold over the full season, it will not, but he has vastly underperformed in April. That’s just a fact. And the key to him improving will either be a gratuitous amount of luck, or a better approach at the plate, hopefully both. But the fact is, the only element of Crawford’s game that I hope sticks through the end of the season is his SB/CS ratio. The rest is garbage, and the numbers illustrate that.
by Patrick L. Kennedy on
May 2, 2008 1:08 AM EDT
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Guru?
A top of the order guy with a .301 OBP is underperforming. It means that he is not on base enough.
That does not mean he is not contributing in some ways. The Rays did start winning more coincident with Crawford beginning to hit more. In the last 10 games, Crawford’s OBP is .356; that helps explain the surge. Prior to that it was .269; it is also possible that the team’s early struggles were partly-only partly-due to his awful OBP in that period.
There is no mystery here, nor is it a sweeping statement to say that Carl has not been a league average player until recently. As a matter of fact, sabermetricians do have ways to incorporate speed into their calculations, and further, while it is entirely possible to assert that Carl has been less than league average, it is also possible to add that he has been an asset in specific circumstances. For example, few would argue that Iwamura has been good offensively, but the big home run was very important to the team, and his defense has been an important asset as well.
I just read a comment at BP, I think by Sheehan, that asserts that pitchers are not distracted by baserunners; in fact, batters tend to do more poorly when there is a threat of a steal. While there may be multiple factors to consider, it is more a sweeping statement to claim that “His speed puts a lot of pressure on pitchers, distracting them from the batter, and this lack of concentration almost certainly results into a higher OBP for people hitting behind him when he is on base.” with no actual evidence beyond supposition than to claim the opposite after analysis of batting records throughout baseball history.
I think that when you see a + after a stat it means the number represents a comparison to league average. So if his OPS+ is under 100 it means he is below the average which is represented by 100. As with pitchers, and ERA+ of 105 would mean he has an ERA that is 5% better than average while if it were 95 it would be 5% poorer. Usually this includes adjustments for park and other factors.
There is no hogwash about the statement that sabermetricians are skeptics. The entire study is based on that approach, to question a commonly held view and then to test it and keep testing it to refine our understanding. No position is sacred, including those of the most respected analysts. Even the statement that Crawford has been less than league average, while entirely defensible, can be critiqued. The key is to do it with information and reason, not superstition and anecdotal evidence.
by bobr on
May 2, 2008 1:14 AM EDT
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I don’t even know what “OPS+” is (I know OPS but not the + thing), but I have watched every game this year and I don’t think it is fair to call CC below league average. Since he started hitting a couple weeks ago the whole offense has come alive. He has had some key RBIs lately and scores all the time. His speed puts a lot of pressure on pitchers, distracting them from the batter, and this lack of concentration almost certainly results into a higher OBP for people hitting behind him when he is on base. I believe this is one of the reason he scores so often. This is also the reason it seems that “the offense goes as CC goes.”
Sure, it would be nice to have him walk more, but that’s no who CC is. He is never going to be a great OBP guy. The CC I have seen over the past couple of weeks is just what I expect from him.
I will admit though his defense against the Os has been a little shoddy. He seems to have trouble catching balls near the walls of Camden.
by RaysTheRoof on
May 2, 2008 12:33 AM EDT
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You're wasting your time
These guys believe traditional stats like Runs scored and RBIs are for the uninformed masses.
by ttnorm on
May 2, 2008 12:37 AM EDT
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The only waste of time here
Is the usage of those two statistics, which are completely misleading. They are in large part dependant upon a hitter’s placement in the lineup, specifically how the players in front of him and behind him do. For that reason, they aren’t an accurate measure of the player himself. If you want a better “clutch” reading, use his batting line with RISP. The fact is, he’s batting .273/.320/.318 with RISP, even worse than his normal batting line. Improvement is needed, and there really isn’t any question of that.
by Patrick L. Kennedy on
May 2, 2008 1:11 AM EDT
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There really isn't any question that the sample size is so small
...That any critique of CC based on data that does not incorporate ball in play measurements is completely groundless.
by ttnorm on
May 2, 2008 9:33 PM EDT
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This is a special case
His BA COULD be better, but that’s not the point, the point is he’s not walking, at all, and that has nothing to do with balls in play.
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on
May 2, 2008 9:34 PM EDT
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Apparently the part in fine print that reads Carl is immune to criticism
Seriously though, his ISO is just ridiculous, and yes I’m sure it’ll get better, but to this point he HAS been below average. That will change, I’m sure, but that’s not what my point was, instead simply since March 31st 2008 until May 1st 2008 he hasn’t been THE Carl Crawford.
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on
May 2, 2008 10:13 PM EDT
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OPS+ is a measure of how that player’s OPS is relative to the league average. As BobR says, it adjusts for some other factors as well, but basically it judges how good a player is relative to the rest of the league. Currently Crawford is below average.
You’re absolutely correct. Crawford is not a high-OBP player, and I doubt he ever will be. The time for real progress on that front has passed, and he is who he is. And in some respects that’s disappointing, but I’ll take a player of Crawford’s caliber in my starting nine anyday. But regardless of his potential on the OBP front, even for him his current rate is just terrible. It is so far below average that it will inhibit even the type of player he is eventually.
by Patrick L. Kennedy on
May 2, 2008 1:21 AM EDT
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Sure, it would be nice to have him walk more, but that’s no who CC is. He is never going to be a great OBP guy. The CC I have seen over the past couple of weeks is just what I expect from him.
Nobody is asking him to be a great OBP guy, and if this is what you expect than I say you need to up your expectations, here’s his career OBPs:
2004 0.331
2005 0.331
2006 0.348
2007 0.355
2008 0.313
His BA is right there, he’s just not walking.
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on
May 2, 2008 2:46 PM EDT
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CC may not be living up to his standards,
but he still set a rays record for runs in a month, is hitting .300, etc… just saying, you could have picked many other people to say “hasn’t been good”, i.e. pena, aki, bartlett, and it would have made more sense…
by davidsmarch on May 2, 2008 12:01 AM EDT 0 recs
No question
Crawford isn’t the only culprit here. Iwamura and Bartlett are doing worse, but the reason Crawford gets highlighted is because the team has come to rely on him so much as one of its most valuable players. Perhaps bringing him an additional amount of scrutiny is his lack of progression with respect to plate discipline. That is exceedingly frustrating to watch, since he has progressed absolutely not at all in that regard since his rookie year. But the fact is, Crawford gets the target due to his performance and his previous reputation. And in my opinion, that’s entirely fair. And you can use any number of traditional statistics to try and put up the illusion of an acceptable month, but the fact is it isn’t there. His accomplishments are either the accomplishments of others (runs scored record) or they are misleading (high batting average).
by Patrick L. Kennedy on
May 2, 2008 1:15 AM EDT
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Yes, I could've
But when you think of who’s vital to the Rays offensive success who pops to mind first, Carl or Bartlett?
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on
May 2, 2008 2:47 PM EDT
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baseball tonight
Just heard on baseball tonight that CC is on pace for 92 RBIs, 156 runs scored, and 46 steals. Also, he is hitting .292.
I mean really that is terrible. What a below average bum.
by RaysTheRoof on May 2, 2008 1:14 AM EDT 0 recs
Again
Useless, useless, and useless. The fact of the matter is he has been extremely fortunate to score as often as he has given how often he has gotten on base. It won’t continue if he keeps performing the way he has. And you can plug you ears and indulge in however good you think his performance has been now if you like, that’s up to you. But if it keeps up, the signs of his shortcomings will become conspicuous enough for even you all to ignore.
by Patrick L. Kennedy on
May 2, 2008 1:17 AM EDT
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Question
I have been frustrated with Crawford this year for swinging at first pitches most at bats….but once on base he does have the ability to score from second and sometimes first base on line drives into the outfield better than most in the league. Is there a sabermetric that accounts for this, if we are to discredit runs scored we have to account for speed on the bases somehow other than steal.
Also, his OBP has to improve over April for us to be successfull.
by davelrogers on
May 2, 2008 9:31 AM EDT
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Agreed in full
No doubt some of his runs scored have come from his ability to meander forward on the basepaths by himself. But he’s also made a couple dumb baserunning decisions this month and he just plum isn’t getting on base a lot to begin with. He was scoring an unusually large amount of the time once he got on, and this rate won’t continue at the present pace. Do I expect that pace to continue? No, I don’t. That’s why I add the qualifer “at the present pace”.
by Patrick L. Kennedy on
May 2, 2008 6:51 PM EDT
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Just Imagine....
What he could do if he were average. His On-Base skills have been terrible this season at a point in his career where he should be making progress. He should pay close attention to Longoria’s approach to hitting. That being said, a hat tip needs to be given to the guys hitting behind him for knocking him in when the opportunity presents itself.
www.citadel-insurance.com
by SeanDubbs on
May 2, 2008 1:47 AM EDT
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Shields is on Pace for a 2.57 ERA too
Totally means he’ll keep it up.
by SaberToothedPie on
May 2, 2008 4:42 PM EDT
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As my law school professors say, all of these stats are important…unless they’re not. I’m proud to be a Rays fan at this point and welcome any of those who have more recently recognized how great baseball and rooting for the Rays can be.
by gatorbait on May 2, 2008 1:34 AM EDT 0 recs
As my law school professors say, all of these stats are important
Heresy, If sabre guys some stats are “Completely Misleading”, you can ignore them. Remember these guys are born of skepticism so when they make a sweeping conclusion, it must be correct.
Crawford is lucky! If Toby Hall had his OPS+ number, he would be leading the AL in Runs Scored.
by ttnorm on
May 2, 2008 7:53 AM EDT
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Crawford is lucky! If Toby Hall had his OPS+ number, he would be leading the AL in Runs Scored.
Except he wouldn’t because he wouldn’t have Pena, Upton, and company driving him in.
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on
May 2, 2008 2:48 PM EDT
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I know that in order for our team to increase in success and sustain it we need to continue to gain the support of all of the current and past doubters. I say welcome to the bandwagon, we’ve been waiting on you for quite some time. The more fans we have the more revenue will increase. I love the way the organization has set itself up, we will be here to stay for awhile.
I don’t know if we will sustain our first place contention right now, but I’m just excited that we are in conversation at all. This really shows that we are out here to stay and to compete.
by usfraysfan on May 2, 2008 3:18 AM EDT 0 recs
Right now we're just finding ways to win due to our Defense
Aki Pena and Carl are all underperforming offensively. Carl is doing well but I expect more out of him. His plate discipline needs work. Aki is currently a liability at the plate although he has an excellent glove. Pena is the same way though hopefully he is turning things around at the plate. I don’t expect or at this point even want Pena to hit as many HR as he did last time. I just want him to make solid contact and work on RBIs.
Offensively though we aren’t slouching: we’re tenth in the league in RS. I just want more plate discipline out of the front of our lineup and someone to nail aki’s feet to the batter’s box when he’s up to swing.
by HAHAHA OH WOW on May 2, 2008 9:19 AM EDT 0 recs
Another thought
Let me try this another way. As I am very unsophisticated in sabermetrics and in statistical reasoning, I am glad to defer to R.J, Patrick, Jake or anyone else who is far more knowledgeable than I am if they show me my errors.
Take a statement I made above that pitchers are not distracted by baserunners. On its face, it appears illogical. I am sure there are instances when they are. I am also sure there are plenty of testimonies from pitchers that they have been distracted.
But if they are distracted, there ought to be some trace of it in the actual playing record. If baserunners or stolen base threats affect the pitcher’s performance, there must be some evidence of it in the record, something indicating that batters hit better with men on base or with Henderson on base rather than Luzinski or something like that. I do not mean in every instance, but as the norm over time.
If after research no such evidence exists, we can tentatively say that no such distraction occurs. I say tentatively because any good researcher will admit that further investigation might alter the conclusion. (That is skepticism.) Possibly some factors have not been considered. Possibly some have been misinterpreted. Possibly there are factors affecting results but we cannot measure the results. Or don’t know how to measure the results. Perhaps there are so many factors interacting that we have not been able to disentangle them properly.
Every reasonable investigator understands the tentative nature of any conclusion. In a sense, anything a sabermetrically oriented person says should be prefaced with the statement, “As far as the evidence shows so far….”, but it is a rather clumsy way to write. So they (we) make assertive statements expecting readers to be aware of the proviso. It requires respect for the reader.
If a person requires certainty and absolute knowledge, sabermetric thinking is not for you. For myself, I find uncertainty and provisional assertions congenial. I am thrilled when I read some traditional or accepted nostrum challenged, even when it is among the hallowed sabermetric notions. It inspires me to think, not parrot, to reconsider, not accept.
For example, among the more controversial conclusions of sabermetrics has been that there is no such thing as a clutch hitter, a statement usually misrepresented, by the way, by those who disagree. But recently Bill James has suggested that there may indeed be such a thing, and it is raising interesting arguments.
I find traditional analysis generally boring because I know in advance what it will say. It is received wisdom and it is merely a matter of applying it to the specific circumstance. So I know that if the Rays slump it will be because they are young and not ready to handle the pressure of a pennant race. If they thrive, it is because their youthful enthusiasm immunizes them from that pressure or perhaps because the infusion of veteran wisdom has helped them cope. It doesn’t challenge or kindle interest; it confirms preconceptions.
I recently saved this quotation from Sheehan’s recent BP chat. I think it summarizes a point nicely, particularly the last paragraph:
“Otto (Halifax): Are we at the point now that we can start making judgements and not worry (too much) about small sample size?
Joe Sheehan: You won’t like this answer, but we may never be at that point. I’m struck, the longer I do this, by just how volatile player performance is, and therefore, team performance. You start to understand why GMs sign guys with no upside but not much downside, just to save the agita.
All we can do is take the information at our disposal and do the best analysis we can. That’s why I emphasize the process, the reasoning, behind claims, and not just the end result.”
It is the process and the reasoning!
by bobr on May 2, 2008 9:32 AM EDT 0 recs
Bobr is the man...
Everyone of your posts (that I have encountered thus far) is a more cohesive and well thought out version of a post I was thinking of making. The only think you need is some Aim-speak and popular references…
by rglass44 on
May 2, 2008 2:35 PM EDT
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Crawford
I’m an Astros fan, but check this blog frequently to see how our ex-Astros in the Rays org. are doing.
The Astros have a couple of “league average” players they’d love to trade for Houston native Carl Crawford. Please send him home soon.
There is a bright side to the '08 season.
Barry Bonds & Roger Clemens are out of baseball.
by maris61 on May 2, 2008 10:02 AM EDT 0 recs
League average
Crawford is not a league average player; he is much better. For most of April, however, he did not play as well as a league average player although he still made contributions. Recently, although he still does not walk or take many pitches, he has been better partly because his BA is high enough to overcome the lack of patience-to some extent.
If he were to play all year the way he did until the middle of April, he would have a poor year. I don’t think any of us think he will do that. But as he does not walk, when he slumps at the plate, he cannot compensate by getting on base via the base on balls, and that is a weakness in his game.
by bobr on
May 2, 2008 10:16 AM EDT
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There are so many independent variables in baseball that it is difficult to attribute statistics to any one reasoning. I think many Sabermetricians get carried away with insightful stats and come to rely on them too heavily. It must be remembered that individual statistics are a tool. If you want to see the big picture you would not look at one stat and be able to make a judgement. If there was one end all, be all statistic in MLB then it would be very easy to make these judgements, but you cannot merely look at one months worth of OBP, OPS+, ERA+, or even K/BB.
You are skewing the facts slightly when you say that Carl has a 5:1 K/BB. 15/4 = 3.75 but looking beyond this you should notice the extremely small divisor. His next walk takes the ratio to 3. FWIW his lifetime average is 3.05. If this is what we have come to expect I will take it for everything else that he does. I have moved beyond that catch in foul territory two weeks ago. Boneheaded but not the end of the world. Not to make an excuse but for whatever reason Carl has traditionally been a slow starter that picks up steam going into the All-Star break.
I think your original point is valid to a degree. Yes, it is extremely exciting that we are 4 over .500 with Kazmir yet to throw a pitch. And yes, Carl is going to heat up and play even better over the next 5 months than the previous one. These lend a certain credibility to the idea that the Rays are for real in the present and certainly in the future.
Please check out this. Of particular interest is Craw’s .710 OPS for March/April. Lifetime .316 OBP for the first month. Obviously, it takes him a month to get his timing, legs stretched, batting eye, whatever the variable is. Again, I get the point you are making, but it sounds like you’re dumping on the guy and basing it all on 1 or 2 statistics.
Hey Yankees... you can take your apology and your trophy and shove 'em straight up your ass!
by Sandy Kazmir on May 2, 2008 11:10 AM EDT 0 recs
I should mention...
Within that link look at the months split for those where this was not clear.
Hey Yankees... you can take your apology and your trophy and shove 'em straight up your ass!
by Sandy Kazmir on
May 2, 2008 11:13 AM EDT
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also very interesting
in those stats are that Crawford has a .325 lifetime BA when going after the first pitch, unless i’m reading that wrong.
by davidsmarch on
May 2, 2008 11:45 AM EDT
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Thats right but even more interesting...
is the 52 plate appearances that have gone to 3-0 in his career of 3702 Plate appearances. That is 1.4% of his overall trips to the plate have gone 3-0. I would wager that’s pretty dang low for such a great player. I’m gonna put some numbers together and get back to you guys.
Hey Yankees... you can take your apology and your trophy and shove 'em straight up your ass!
by Sandy Kazmir on
May 2, 2008 12:01 PM EDT
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It's only 1.4% because....
CC has never faced E-Jax in a game, otherwise it would be much higher.
www.citadel-insurance.com
by SeanDubbs on
May 2, 2008 1:31 PM EDT
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Crawford swinging at the first pitch....
Check out what happens when Wade Boggs swings at the first pitch…
http://www.baseball-reference.com/pi/bsplit.cgi?n1=boggswa01
or Man-Ram…
http://www.baseball-reference.com/pi/bsplit.cgi?n1=ramirma02
hell, or even Randy Winn…
http://www.baseball-reference.com/pi/bsplit.cgi?n1=winnra01
The point of this exercise is that most players perform better on the first pitch, markedly so when they are patient hitters that only swing at the first pitch in certain circumstances.
by rglass44 on
May 2, 2008 2:42 PM EDT
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i didn’t look at manram or winn, but boggs is .392 career when the count is 2-1 and .373 when the count is 3-1.
by websterjtc on
May 2, 2008 2:58 PM EDT
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The K:BB stat I used was not "skewing the facts"
In my defense, I was relying on Fan Graphs for my stats, and they don’t take into account the present day’s numbers. They update the next day. So naturally Crawford looks better one day after his performance yesterday, and the degree to which a lot of his numbers change shows how early it is in the season. But the underlying point, that Crawford’s April was unacceptable for the perceived value we place in him as a player, is entirely correct.
by Patrick L. Kennedy on
May 2, 2008 6:56 PM EDT
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What's the deal here?
He HAS been awful in April, so has Aki and Bartlett, but don’t we expect Carl to be one of, if not the, best? He’s not hitting to his standards – neither are the other two, granted, but they’ve felt enough heat.
Nathan Haynes is getting on base more often than Carl, that should ring bells and sound alarms.
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on May 2, 2008 2:44 PM EDT 0 recs
Carl: .293 .313 .407 .720
LGAVG: .257 .332 .400 .742
LFLGAVG: .272 .353 .438 .791
Please tell me how Carl WASN’T below league average last month.
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on May 2, 2008 2:58 PM EDT 0 recs
When the very thought of Sabermetrics offends you, anything is possible.
A-Rod Not a great player? David Eckstein completely Awesome? Carl Crawford had an MVP April?
Anything is possible with the power of ignorance!
by SaberToothedPie on
May 2, 2008 3:21 PM EDT
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I'm not calling anyone ignorant
But I’m also not calling for Carl’s head here. I simply said that he hasn’t been good, and I don’t think he has been, he certainly hasn’t been Carl Crawford good, and I hold him to a higher standard. I think he’ll be fine, but for now, not good.
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on
May 2, 2008 3:22 PM EDT
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Personally
I think as an Offensive Player, CC is overrated. Not much better than league average, and when his speed starts going, he’s pretty screwed. Probably a career .800 OPS guy.
But yes, he’s going to bounce back.
by SaberToothedPie on
May 2, 2008 3:24 PM EDT
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I like how five words, that weren't even the focus of the post, made all this blow up.
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on May 2, 2008 10:10 PM EDT 0 recs











