You Can't Walk 10 And Win
You also can't depend on Gary Glover and his now 1.8 WHIP to keep any game close. I know I said I'd make a post about 1,000 pitchers who are/were > Glover, but I'd just copy and paste rosters.
Edwin was also less than impressive today, especially the last few innings where he waked four. Look if he can not walk people, like had before, he'll be a good pitcher, but you give up 10 baserunners in 5.3 innings and expect long term success, it just won't happen.
This isn't change just for change's sake, but please, either get rid of Glover or bury him like Hammel.
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I agree.
In the name of all that is good and holy, PLEASE get rid of Gary Glover.
by Orlando Rays on May 18, 2008 5:36 PM EDT 0 recs
Getting rid of Glover
is not that hard. We currently have 2 relievers in AAA better than him. 1 is on the 40 man, the other is not. But we have flexibility on the 40 man so calling up Balfor isn’t an issue either.
Plus, if Niemann is only going to pitch a few innings at a time, he’s an upgrade in the pen too.
Tools Whore
Sign Bonds!
by Tyler on May 18, 2008 6:00 PM EDT 0 recs
I actually liked Birkins. Was said to see Glover replace him.
by floridaroar on May 18, 2008 6:03 PM EDT 0 recs
You guys seem to expect Jackson...
To pitch a shutout everytime out. If he doesn’t, you criticize him. If he does, you criticize him and say it was luck. The fact is, in 9 starts, he has 6 where he has given up 1 run or less. That’s much more consistant than you seem to believe and I challenge you to find 10 other pitchers who have done the same. Was he perfect today? No. But was he solid? Yes. I’ll take 5.1 with one earned run anyday. A little short but his last two outings he went 8 and 7 ip.
by save_the_trop on May 18, 2008 6:12 PM EDT 0 recs
It's not "You Guys" So Much as it is RJ
RJ is an Edwin hater. Plain and simple. I know how to stop the hate coming from RJ’s keyboard though…
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Barry Bonds is Edwin Jackson’s father. Now leave the man alone RJ!
by floridaroar on
May 18, 2008 6:20 PM EDT
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Read the GDT, I was hardly a hater. In fact I was saying he really had improved...
Then he went and walked the world, just like he used to.
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on
May 18, 2008 6:33 PM EDT
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There was improvement
It’s easy saying there wasn’t improvement when he imploded in the sixth, but early in the game you saw strikeout numbers like we haven’t seen from Edwin in a long time. It was a pretty good start.
by tallyray on
May 18, 2008 6:42 PM EDT
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Early in the game, yes. But the walks killed that for me.
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on
May 18, 2008 6:48 PM EDT
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Everyone has totally ignored Sickles take on Jackson. Why?
by save_the_trop on
May 18, 2008 7:50 PM EDT
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Which team is Sickels scouting for again?
Give me a reason I should listen to him over the scouts I talk to and I’ll do it.
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on
May 18, 2008 7:52 PM EDT
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Because it was Rays related and this is a Rays site that delivers content from other places
Especially on the same network.
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on
May 18, 2008 8:00 PM EDT
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No. I said it had minimal merit to me. It's his opinion v. others opinion.
He very well could be right in the end.
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on
May 18, 2008 8:04 PM EDT
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You would usually at least make a comment on it...
but, since it was pro-Jackson, you just ignored it.
by save_the_trop on
May 19, 2008 1:42 AM EDT
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Funniest thing I read all day
Thanks Floridaroar
Mound Visit
by Mound Visit on
May 19, 2008 2:14 PM EDT
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"Look if he can not walk people, like had before, he'll be a good pitcher,"
Clearly I’m a hater.
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on
May 18, 2008 6:40 PM EDT
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I don't expect him to
But I do think he’s better this year than he was last year. And every pitcher has a bad start every once in a while. He was not part of the problem today.
by Orlando Rays on
May 18, 2008 7:36 PM EDT
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but you give up 10 baserunners in 5.3 innings and expect long term success, it just won't happen.
5+ innings, 6 hits, 7 Ks, 1 ER
Walking guys isnt good, but I think you undervalue the importance of not being hittable. When Jackson is locating his stuff, guys arent hitting it. His walks overall havent been that bad, and when you can pitch well with runners on base like Jackson has been, you have a lot of leeway as long as your stuff is good enough to miss bats, which Jackson’s stuff is.
by blazinrayz on May 18, 2008 11:11 PM EDT 0 recs
Just to break this down a little more:
First 4 innings: 5 hits, 5Ks, 0 walks, 0ER.
Last inning+: 1ER, 1H, 2Ks, 4W.
To me, it looks like he just came apart the last inning, and I’m pretty sure I’ve seen this happen to Kazmir enough times last year (his horrible stats from pitches 76+) to know that this happens. The difference from last year’s Jackson and this year’s Jackson is that when this year’s Jackson begins to fall apart, he has in one way or another, managed to escape the big inning and either limit or avoid the damage inflicted. If we had last year’s Jackson, he would have come apart at the seams in the 5th and the Rays would have been shelled as a result. The reason why he’s getting out of these messes is not just because of our bullpen; to me, he looks like a much better pitcher under pressure than he did last year.
I’m still not all that happy with Jackson, but unless somewhere during the season he turns back into last year’s Jackson, I’d take him as the #4 over anybody in the bullpen or AAA right now.
Also, this games loss falls squarely on our bullpen. It would have been nice if Jackson would have lasted through the 6th, but the bullpen gave up the other 4 runs in that game, not Jackson.
by kericr on
May 19, 2008 11:52 AM EDT
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question
Who is the more productive pitcher? Pitcher A has a 1.30 WHIP but gives up a lot of hits and very little walks. Player B has a WHIP of 1.30 also, but he gives up very few hits and too many walks.
I know walks are the worst thing a pitcher can allow to happen, because they are under his control. BUt dont hits drive in runs? Just saying, if all else is equal and they are giving up the same amount of baserunners, wouldnt you take the guy who gets guys out and just has bouts with control problems at times?
I dont know why the hate for Jackson. Last I checked his ERA is in the 3.30 range and hes our #4 starter. When he pitches great, he barely gets mention around here (I almost completely overlooked the ‘Sickles on Jackson’ post), but when he has a 6 inning 1 ER game he gets criticized.
by blazinrayz on May 18, 2008 11:18 PM EDT 0 recs
Sorry for the 3rd post, but another reason why I take the guy who walks more and gets hit less, is because that is a correctable problem (in Jacksons case he is making noticable improvements). Wheras a guy whos stuff isnt that great and gets hit a lot can’t just make his stuff better
by blazinrayz on May 18, 2008 11:20 PM EDT 0 recs
Give me a reason I should listen to him over the scouts I talk to and I’ll do it.
whatever dude, you have been hating on Jackson since before you talked to any scouts about him. And when you turn on a guy you tend to dig your heels in and rip them to shreds, I doubt anything youve discussed with scouts has altered that.
I’ll take the implied enthusiasm I see out of everyone surrounding Edwin and the continued support he receives from his coaches over some anonymous scouts
by blazinrayz on May 19, 2008 4:09 AM EDT 0 recs
Hate for Jackson?
I think considering R.J.’s comments on Jackson as “hate” is rather hyperbolic. All I read is that he is dubious about the likelihood that Edwin can continue to keep runs off the board given his peripherals.
While I am probably more prone to optimism about Jackson due to a number of factors, including observations about how he appears on the mound, I also am unconvinced that he has turned a corner. It is not a question of WHIP or comparing him to other pitchers, or even of distinguishing between hitability and control.
Rather it is the recognition that it is rare for pitchers who tend to walk so many and strike out so few to continue to avoid giving up hits too. Jackson might be able to do it, but if so he is bucking historical patterns. Some players do buck those patterns, so it isn’t impossible, but given that he has not been an outlier in the past, it still remains likely that we are simply seeing a small sample exception that will correct itself soon enough.
I may be missing some newer rhetoric in the use of the word “hate” here, but if it suggests any personal animus or antipathy I don’t think that applies to what R.J., and certainly not to what I am saying. It is just a matter of trying to delve a bit deeper than ERA to see whether the underlying performance merits optimism, and while in my case I think it may, I don’t think we should ignore the warning signs in many of the numbers.
by bobr on May 19, 2008 5:38 AM EDT 0 recs
Jackson pitched fine
This is my first post here, but I’ve been a long time lurker. I’ve just seen some really flawed analysis lately so I figured I’d speak up. Jackson has a 3.29 ERA, has three outing of 0ER and three outings of 1ER. How is that luck? That looks pretty consistent to me. Does he walk too many batters? Sure of course he does. But lately he has been limiting his hits to singles. WHIP and BB/9 is not the end all of all statistical analysis relating to pitching. XBH/9, HR/9, and K/9 all must be taken into account when scouting Jackson. The fact is nobody is hitting him hard. Nobody is driving in runs. In order to score against Jackson you have to essentially have to essentially string together 3 base runners in an inning. That is very difficult to do even with someone with a slightly higher than desired walk rate.
by matthan on May 19, 2008 11:18 AM EDT 0 recs
If I may use a football analogy
you can only let a team into the redzone so many times before they score 7. There’s not one pitcher in the history of the game that has consistently put a large number of runners on base and consistently gotten out of those jams and lived to tell the story.
still needs more Bonds
by JI on
May 19, 2008 4:50 PM EDT
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However...
Our relievers are dangerously close to the edge. Namely Dan Wheeler. He is being hit very hard. He is one person I’d worry about.
by matthan on May 19, 2008 11:18 AM EDT 0 recs
Nonsense
I need him to continue raking Holds for my fantasy team. I refuse to accept he’s on the brink of disaster, instead I chose to live in DENIAL!
by floridaroar on
May 19, 2008 11:28 AM EDT
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You gotta admit...
He has bumbled through his last few outings.
by kericr on
May 19, 2008 11:54 AM EDT
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