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AL East top pitchers

To help distract us from more pointless Sonnanstine/Jackson debates, I figured I'd post something that's been on my mind for a little bit.  After watching Kazmir pitch last night and seeing how well Shields has been pitching this year, I couldn't but think that we've got one of, if not the best, 1-2 punch in all of the AL East.  Let's think about this...

 

Star-divide

Rays

#1: Scott Kazmir

#2: James Shields

This may seem weird to say after Kaz's really awesome performance last night, but if you ask me, I feel like Shields is quickly developing into our staff ace.  He has already assumed a vocal team leadership role on this team, taught Percy and Kazmir his change-up, and has put up really impressive numbers so far this season.  He's also had one of the most dominant outings from any (Devil) Ray pitcher, he's pitched multiple complete games already, he doesn't walk many batters, and he is much more economical with his pitches than Kazmir.  Of course, Kaz looked much more economical last night and could be poised for a big break-out year himself.  Thoughts?  Opinions?  Who will be our staff ace by the end of the year?  Personally, as weird as it may sound, I currently feel more secure with Shields on the mound than Kazmir.

Boston

#1: Josh Beckett

#2: Dice-K

 Beckett is just...well, awesome.  But Dice-K is not the staff ace that Boston thought they were paying for when they put up that $50M posting fee.  He had a 4+ ERA last year and although he currently has a 2.50 ERA this year, his K:BB ratio is screaming that his ERA is bound to rise soon.  Heck, he's walked 8 hitters in one game this year, which is just absolutely ridiculous.  Then again, Dice-K did have a much better K:BB ratio last year than he does this year, so that will probably improve some as well.  This is up for debate (depending on how much you like Dice-K and how much you think Kaz and Shields will improve this year), but I personally say advantage Rays.

Orioles

#1: Jeremy Guthrie

#2: Daniel Cabrera

Okay....is this the year that young, chronically wild flamethrowers finally find the strikezone?  So far, it's certainly looking good for Jackson and Cabrera.  While I'm still not completely sold on either of them, they are certainly looking like they're making improvements and who knows?  This could be the year these guys finally put it together and if so, watch out AL.  However, despite all that, this duo still has nothing on Kaz and Shields.  Too unproven and heck, who is Jeremy Guthrie?

Jays

#1: Roy Halladay

#2: AJ Burnett

Roy Halladay is probably one of the most underrated pitchers in the league, simply because he pitches in Canada and well, those Blue Jay never get any love.  He's a model of consistency since he first broke into the league, almost always posting ERAs in the low 3s.  Burnett, on the other hand, is brilliant when healthy, but he's certainly had a hard time with that since joining the Blue Jays.  He has yet to get over 30 starts in one season with the Blue Jays and over the course of his career, he's only topped 30 starts in two seasons.  However, he is a heck of a pitcher when healthy.  This year he hasn't been that effective yet (4.79 ERA, 1.48 WHIP, 49:27 K:BB), but I think he has too much talent not to turn it around as long as he's healthy.  However, both Burnett and Halladay are currently 31 and most likely beyond their peak years.  While they'll probably still be effective for some years, Shields is 26 and Kaz is 24, plus their both locked up by the Rays for years to come.  I think that fact alone gives the advantage to the Rays.

Yankees

#1: Ching Ming-Wang

#2: Andy Pettite

Wang is a true ace, despite him not being a strikeout pitcher.  However, the Yankee rotation ends there.  Andy Pettite (36 years old) and Mike Mussina (39 years old) in slots 2 and 3?  Sure, they're still decent pitchers, but nothing like how they were in their peaks.  If the Yankees get Hughes back on the right track or switch Joba to the rotation, then maybe they'll be able to challenge Kaz and Shields.  As of now, though, they simply don't have the depth.  The Yankee rotation is just a mess at the moment.

 

Okay...so that was nowhere near a systematic analysis or anything, but I think if you look up the stats, they'll back up many of my conclusions.  I was just feeling too lazy tonight to put a bunch of stats in.  But anyway, thoughts?  Which 1-2 punch do you think is the best this year?  The best to build a franchise around?  Also, because I'm really curious, who do you think is our staff ace...Shields or Kazmir?

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Kazmir's change

He’s had a plus change since early 06. It’s not something new. And Shields did not teach him his…well, he did, but it didn’t work with Kazmir’s arm slot or whatever. I disagree with saying Shields is the ace. I can see the argument, but I think it’s more of an emotional thing because he gets through games more easily it seems. While Kaz often labors, but the overall result over a long period of time has always been in Kazmir’s favor. And he’s over a year younger.

I’m trying to start a new flame war! Shields sucks, Kazmir is a stud!

Tools Whore

Sign Bonds!

by Tyler on May 21, 2008 9:47 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

That's also because Kazmir has simply been pitching in the majors longer than Shields.

Though granted, Kaz has put up the sexier numbers and he’s a couple years younger than Shields. I dunno…I do agree that my argument in favor of Shields is mostly an emotional one. I really don’t have the stats to back it up minus the fact that he’s much better at going late in games (at least this season it’s seemed that way) and he can be really efficient. Plus, Shields has a much better career WHIP, which can be a better indicator on the quality of the pitcher than ERA.

I do think Shields has at least proven that he has the potential to develop into a staff ace. If Kaz puts together a season this year similar to his second half last year, though, I don’t think there will be much moving him from the number one slot. So I hope this doesn’t start another flame war…oh gosh, not another of those.

"I never threw an illegal pitch. The trouble is, once in a while I toss one that ain't never been seen by this generation." - Satchel Paige

by Steve Slowinski on May 21, 2008 10:43 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I swear I just read something recently about how Kaz has really improved his changeup now because of Shields.

Maybe I’m wrong, but I’ll try and re-find the article.

"I never threw an illegal pitch. The trouble is, once in a while I toss one that ain't never been seen by this generation." - Satchel Paige

by Steve Slowinski on May 21, 2008 10:54 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

http://www.draysbay.com/2008/5/20/523838/kazmir-also-has-had-a-bit

"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena

by R.J. Anderson on May 21, 2008 10:58 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

If both are on top of their game...

Beckett and Dice-K are a very formidable 1-2. In a playoff series, I think I’d have to take Beckett over any other pitcher in this division because he’s been there and won that.

by Jason Collette on May 21, 2008 9:59 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Beckett

when he’s on is absolutely unhittable. For 1 game, I’d take him over any pitcher in the game. And honestly, wouldn’t have to think very hard about it.

Tools Whore

Sign Bonds!

by Tyler on May 21, 2008 10:04 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yes, and I'm certainly not debating that Beckett is one hell of a pitcher...I don't think anyone can debate that.

But in this article, I was trying to look at 1-2 combos on top of the rotation…not just the aces. And in that regard, I think I like Kazmir and Shields a bit better than Beckett and Dice-K. Also, Dice-K and Backett are older than Shields and Kaz (though not by a huge amount), so you can argue that when Shields and Kaz get as old as Beckett, one or both may be just as good as him.

"I never threw an illegal pitch. The trouble is, once in a while I toss one that ain't never been seen by this generation." - Satchel Paige

by Steve Slowinski on May 21, 2008 10:16 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm biased on Beckett

He’s my favorite non-Rays player since he and I went to the same HS and he’s the only pro athlete from Spring HS in a sport at the moment :)

by Jason Collette on May 21, 2008 10:28 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Comparisons

Beckett is probably just reaching his peak and is an outstanding pitcher. His World Series achievements certainly enhance his image, and rightly so to some extent.

But the statistical picture does not suggest so stark a contrast to Kazmir. Beckett’s career BB/9 is significantly better (2.93/9 to Kazmir’s 4.12/9. Shields is at 1.97/9) But Kazmir has the edge in K rate (9.69 to 8.56. Shields is at 7.46.) So Beckett also has a better K/BB rate than Kazmir while Shields is better than both.

Of course, we are comparing Beckett ages 21-28, with most of the stats from his ages 23-27 while Kazmir’s are from ages 20-24 with the bulk from 21-23. Beckett’s BB rate improved after age 25 and was particularly outstanding last year.

Also, while Beckett’s lifetime ERA is 3.78 which is an ERA+ of 115, Kazmir’s are both better at 3.56 and ERA+ of 126.

So while I would still select the current Beckett over the current Kazmir (primarily because of the control difference), I don’t think the choice is beyond debate, and if Kazmir’s control can improve as much as Beckett’s did in his age 25-28 years, I think Scott will prove the superior pitcher.

by bobr on May 21, 2008 11:24 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Interesting points but...

I doubt you would find very many baseball people out there who would take Kazmir over Beckett even long term. Beckett is more than just his stats. His ability to rise to the occasion can simply not be captured through statistics. He is the most clutch pitcher in the game today and one of the most clutch of all time.

I know some on this site don’t believe in the idea of clutch players, but having watched Beckett in the playoffs it is hard to deny that this guy raises his game to another level in the most important situations. Perhaps Kazmir has the same ability, but we don’t know and its likely that he won’t be able to match Beckett’s elite performances. While I agree with the idea that Kazmir has a lot of room to improve due to his young age, I would still take the proven commodity.

On the overall debate of the top two starters, I would take Beckett and Dice-K, but it’s close. Very close.

by RaysTheRoof on May 22, 2008 12:20 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It's so tough to bring in the playoffs when Kaz has never been there himself.

However, very true…Beckett has proven to be one of the best post-season pitchers of all time, at least to this point. We certainly can’t expect Kaz to automatically be that good in the post-season. Few pitchers are.

But Kazmir isn’t a proven commodity? I beg to differ. He’s a bunch of years younger than Beckett, but I definitely think he’s proven that he can perform in the regular season just as well as Beckett can. Yes, his control has been an issue in the past, but look at what he did in the second half of last year. And look what he’s doing so far this year (small sample size alert!). In fact, I would argue that Beckett has only really proven himself as recently as last year. Yes, his 2005 season was also good, but 2006 was pretty much a wash for him and 2007 was the year when he finally dramatically lowered his walk rate and boosted the K numbers. So I think it’s tough to say he’s proven himself more than Kaz has, when he’s really only put up one incredible year to date.

"I never threw an illegal pitch. The trouble is, once in a while I toss one that ain't never been seen by this generation." - Satchel Paige

by Steve Slowinski on May 22, 2008 12:33 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

More comparison

After posting above I realized I had not considered what impressions one got from watching them. Of course, I have seen Kazmir a lot more often than Beckett, which means I have stronger impressions both of his excellent and his poor performances.

Beckett can certainly look like a HOF pitcher, and in the post-season he has. I do not put much stock in evaluating based on a few outings, even in high pressure ones, but it is hard to overlook his excellence. On the other hand, despite those impressions, it is important to remember that Beckett did not throw 200 innings until he was 26 (and then was not very good) and that 2007 was really his first great year. He had been good, even excellent, before on occasion, but was actually seen as a slight disappointment by many until 2007.

Kazmir hasn’t had that opportunity, although it should be noted that he has often pitched very well against the Yankees and Red Sox, the closest we can come to considering him in high pressure situations. His ERA vs. Boston is 2.82 in 18 games and against NY it is 2.68 in 10 games. I attended the game in 2006 when he beat Beckett and the Red Sox 3-0 on a 2 hitter with 2 BBs and 10 Ks. He looked just as overwhelming that game, as a 22 year old, as Beckett ever looked in the post-season.

While I agree that Beckett is the more accomplished pitcher right now, and all projections about Kazmir include a lot of conjecture, I think Kazmir’s ceiling is higher. His control is not terrible; in fact, in 2006 it was pretty good although it regressed in the first half of 2007, possibly due to tinkering with mechanics. He has been better at a younger age and has played on poorer teams with poorer defenses, until now that is.

If Kazmir can get his walk rate back to 3.23, which it was in 2006, and remain healthy (a problem Beckett had in his early years too), he is my choice.

by bobr on May 22, 2008 7:35 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Shields is the ace right now...

but Kaz still has a much much higher ceiling. I think we will see Kaz take over as the uncontested number one pitcher on this staff next season. For now though, he will remain 1b to Shields’ 1a.

by usfraysfan on May 21, 2008 11:36 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Also...

I still find it absolutely fantastic that we have this ability to have this discussion. I look forward to the day in the coming years when we can have discussions about our pitching staff and whether it is the best in MLB. I think its in the not-so-distant future.

by usfraysfan on May 21, 2008 11:38 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I absolutely agree

The moment that I realized that Kaz and Shields could arguably be the best combo in our division was really a powerful moment. I mean, Rays Index recently posted an article that they’d published this exact time last year about how the Rays’ rotation had 3 of the worst starters in the majors in it (Fossum, Seo, and Jackson). Just look at how much has changed in one year…it’s ridiculous.

And with Price making his pro debut on Thursday, I just can’t help but be excited for the future.

"I never threw an illegal pitch. The trouble is, once in a while I toss one that ain't never been seen by this generation." - Satchel Paige

by Steve Slowinski on May 22, 2008 12:21 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Just to be the devil's advocate....

How do we know what Shields’ ceiling is? Wasn’t he a relatively no-name prospect until he all of a sudden appeared on the scene and started making a name for himself? In that regard, I don’t think many people would ever projected him to end up being this good. So what’s the say he doesn’t keep improving? He’s already proven many of the experts wrong, at least from what I’ve gathered.

"I never threw an illegal pitch. The trouble is, once in a while I toss one that ain't never been seen by this generation." - Satchel Paige

by Steve Slowinski on May 22, 2008 12:24 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Kaz=Ace

In looking at their numbers it is clear that Kaz is the Ace of the staff. Shields is a great second pitcher, but Kaz is more likely to win the CY than Shields even this year. An ace is unhittable, a power-pitcher, a shut-down pitcher. These qualities in my mind describe Kaz more than Shields. Shields would be the ace of a number of staffs in the game. Kaz posted a better ERA last year and was the AL strike out king. He is more likely to be more effective in big games and playoff series because he is a power pitcher whose stuff will be hard to hit even if you see him twice in a week.

I like Shields more because of his makeup and desire to lead the team, while Kaz has always seemed kind of aloof. Now that Kaz has the new deal I may switch allegiences, but there is something I love and admire about that horse that you can pencil in for 6-8 innings of 2-3 run ball. In my mind, Shields is like a Halladay clone, consistent and will be one of the best (and most underrated pitchers in the game), but never get quite his due because he’s not a power-pitcher.

by rglass44 on May 22, 2008 9:35 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

PS...

A big thanks to whoever posted this on the main page. I’m rather honored….definitely wasn’t expecting that.

"I never threw an illegal pitch. The trouble is, once in a while I toss one that ain't never been seen by this generation." - Satchel Paige

by Steve Slowinski on May 22, 2008 12:34 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I bumped it, good stuff.

"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena

by R.J. Anderson on May 22, 2008 5:13 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

All I have to say is...

It’s awesome we can debate our staff to be among the finest in the AL East.

It’s also great to have two amazing pitchers who both have legitimate claims as being our Ace.

It’s doesn’t suck.

by floridaroar on May 22, 2008 1:36 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Cabrera

Is finally developing into a consistant 2 seam fastball pitcher. His BBs (and Ks) are down and he looks like he could make a solid career for himself with his stuff.

RJ is not an elitist douchebag who hates scouting

by ttnorm on May 22, 2008 6:57 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I can't help rooting for Cabrera to pull it together

Mostly because he’s had such dominant stuff but just hasn’t been able to harness it. I do think this season could be the beginnings of a turn-around for him and if that’s so, the Os could have the makings of a nice ace on their hands.

However, his peripherals aren’t the prettiest thing in the world. They’re not bad, but also not particularly inspiring so far this season. If you don’t believe in sabermetrics or get worked up whenever RJ says the same thing about Jackson, ignore this. But Cabrera’s K:BB ratio is 1.54 right now, which is only slightly improved upon his career average (1.45). And his BABIP is currently .237, which seems low, but actually makes sense when you look at his 12.8 LD%. Is that LD% and BABIP sustainable, though? Will he continue to improve upon his K:BB ratio? Tough questions and really, only time will tell. I’m rooting for him (except against the Rays), though, just like I hope Jackson can continue to pull it together.

"I never threw an illegal pitch. The trouble is, once in a while I toss one that ain't never been seen by this generation." - Satchel Paige

by Steve Slowinski on May 22, 2008 10:43 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't think he wants to be that unhittable dominant guy

He seems to work a lot better with the heavy fastball put into play for hitters fear of getting behind and facing his nasty stuff. He looked solid v. the Yanks the other night.

RJ is not an elitist douchebag who hates scouting

by ttnorm on May 22, 2008 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't think Joba's going to be the savior the Yankees think he'll be

He’s hot when he doesn’t have people on base, but the moment someone makes him crack, he almost always falls apart.

Do not think that what is hard for you to master is humanly impossible; but if a thing is humanly possible, consider it to be within your reach.

by Orlando Rays on May 22, 2008 7:42 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Looks like Joba

has started his transition to the rotation.

RJ is not an elitist douchebag who hates scouting

by ttnorm on May 22, 2008 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Now if we could get someone to bury a briefcase with an egg salad sandwich outside every stadium

life would be complete. I don’t think I have laughed as hard in years as when I saw that Private Pyle fat-body look-a-like covered in flied like he had been rolling in garbage.

Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind.

by Sandy Kazmir on May 22, 2008 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Beckett is not a regular season ace. Sure he has a year every once in awhile where he puts out around ‘ace’ numbers. But far too often he pitches well under 200 innings while having over a 4.00 ERA. Those simply are not ace numbers. Of course the playoffs is a different animal all together.

by matthan on May 22, 2008 9:07 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

That's because he had blister problems before last year.

Do not think that what is hard for you to master is humanly impossible; but if a thing is humanly possible, consider it to be within your reach.

by Orlando Rays on May 22, 2008 10:54 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

McGowan!!!!!!!!!

I’d say he is at worst the second best pitcher on the Jays staff. He is a future ace and has had as good of a year as Burnett. Burnett lives in a realm of possibility that remains largely unreached. He is great at times, but he has never really had any lasting success.

I might even take Marcum over Burnett too.

stats

Since 2006, which is the first time McGowan and Marcum really started pitching in the majors, here are some stats.

Marcum: 16-9, 223.3 IP, 3.75 ERA, 1.12 WHIP, 7.3 k/9, 2.62 k/bb
Burnett: 14-12, 223 IP, 4.00 ERA, 1.43 WHIP, 9.08 k/9, 2.42 k/bb
McGowan: 14-14, 227.3 IP, 4.12 ERA, 1.21 WHIP, 7.36 K/9, 2.11 K/BB

From this, it looks like Marcum has clearly been the second best pitcher on the staff in the last year. His numbers this year have been even more dominant though.

by rglass44 on May 22, 2008 9:55 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Very good point

I had a tough time trying to decide who to list as the Blue Jays’ number 2 starter. Burnett is definitely penciled in their by his team, but I feel like Marcum and/or McGowan have a lot of potential. I nearly put Marcum in their number two slot just because of how well he’s done this year, but I figured I should stick by just who the teams had slotted in their number two slots.

But, I do think that Marcum and McGowan are going to be really important for the Blue Jays going forward. Both have only limited major league experience so far, so I am very curious to see how both of them fair over 32 starts this season. Going into next year, though, it is quite possible that one of them will supplant Burnett as number two. And if we were looking at overall staff depth, I think their staff would rank right up there.

"I never threw an illegal pitch. The trouble is, once in a while I toss one that ain't never been seen by this generation." - Satchel Paige

by Steve Slowinski on May 22, 2008 10:26 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

S. Kazmir since AS break last year

19 games started

117.1 Innings Pitched

146 strikeouts

2.23 ERA

1.14 WHIP

6 HR allowed

11-4 record

by blazinrayz on May 22, 2008 4:22 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

#2

Right now I think our 1-2 punch is 2nd behind the Sox. Beckett is the one guy you would want to start a decisive game and Dice-K is a solid #2 starter. That makes them the best in my book.

I’ve viewed Shields as the #1 since last year. Not based on a bunch of stats but based on the fact I feel like he gives a more consistent performance from start to start, you can rely on Shields go to deep in a ball game and he was committed to this team as demostrated through his contract.

Several of those arguments don’t hold up anymore as Kaz has committed to the team and has been fairly consistent lately. But I still don’t totally trust him on the mound. I’m always wary of the 5 IP, 110 pitches, 2 ER, 10 K start from Kaz…good for free pizza but not for winning games long term.

It’s great to have a legitimate debate about the teams #1 because we have 2 great choices…I’ll take Shields for now.

by K-Rock on May 22, 2008 10:46 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

The way I see it

This is actually pretty simple. Baltimore’s #1 and #2 don’t even belong in discussion.

After that, between the remaining #1s, I would consider taking any other staff’s #1 over Kazmir (I might not necessarily do it, but I’d heavily consider it). They’re all exceptional pitchers and it’s hard to not consider any one of them to be the best of the group, it more or less depends on who’s hot at the time.

After that, the only #2 who belongs in a discussion with Shields is Dice-K. Petite should be collecting pension, not paychecks, and Burnett is a world-beater one second and a mess the next. He essentially Edwin Jackson with a world-series ring.

Between Shields and Dice-K, I think they’re about equal, but I’m happier to have shields since he didn’t cost $50 million to talk to. I still think Boston’s pitching all around is better than the Rays at this point in time, but that should change, as soon as next season.

by kericr on May 23, 2008 12:34 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

And something specific about Halliday

The reason why he gets hurt so much is because he’s getting burned up on that Toronto staff. I mean, 35 complete games in his career, and 33 of those since 2001 to today. He’s doing nearly 5 a year; that’s unheard of this day and age. I’m surprised his arm really hasn’t fallen off by now.

by kericr on May 23, 2008 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Jays #2

I might take Marcum over Shields… I’d at least think about it.

by rglass44 on May 23, 2008 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not to that point

Marcum is having an excellent start to the year, and his peripherals all validate his performance. He will continue to pitch well enough with that defense behind him, but his BABIP is under .200, so he is bound to see a normalization of luck soon. Even with a good defense, that isn’t sustainable. Interesting you should say that though. They are actually similar pitchers and are very close to one another in age.

by Patrick L. Kennedy on May 23, 2008 4:58 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

That defense really helps.

"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena

by R.J. Anderson on May 23, 2008 5:02 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yes, and our defense really helps.

"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena

by R.J. Anderson on May 24, 2008 12:18 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Speaking of defense

The Oriole outfield took away at least 2 long hits tonight and made two other fine running catches on screaming line drives. Very impressive.

by bobr on May 24, 2008 12:41 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I noticed that too.

Get past the errors on the errant pickoff throws, and the Orioles’ range was very impressive in the field. Adam Jones was spectacular. It’s easy to see why Baltimore leads the majors in Defensive Efficiency.

by Patrick L. Kennedy on May 24, 2008 1:11 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

That outfield is going to be a pesk for quite a while.

"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena

by R.J. Anderson on May 24, 2008 10:47 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I would compare Marcum to Garza

he doesnt belong in Shields comparisons yet. And I would take Marcum over Garza

by blazinrayz on May 24, 2008 5:14 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

agreed

Marcum has been just as good as Shields, and he’s done a lot more than Garza has…

by rglass44 on May 25, 2008 6:18 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

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