Going Slow in a Fast World
by R.J. Anderson on May 21, 2008 5:58 PM EDT
101 comments
I'm guessing Sonnanstine's fastball usage had something to do with his beating today. On the season he's thrown roughly 36% fastballs, but today 48 of his 100 pitches were of the speed driven variety. To quote Tommy Rancel of OutsPerSwing, "When your fastball is 88, that's not good."
When you're leaving that fastball up, it's also not good.
via 38.99.108.6
Note the fastballs left in the middle of the zone, that's simply not going to work. To Sonny's credit he threw 64% strikes today, but that's actually lower than his 69% average this year. Really it doesn't appear he pitched bad enough to give up seven earned; 6 innings, 9 hits and a walk, and six strikeouts on 100 pitches. That's a WHIP of 1.66, which isn't good. The two homeruns allowed were the ultimately the most costly.
Rough day for the Rays overall, Sonny included, but this might be the first real butt whooping of the year for us.
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Really it doesn't appear he pitched bad enough to give up seven earned;
You should seriously get a job in politics. You the master of spin.
by save_the_trop on May 21, 2008 6:29 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
His line screams seven earned runs to you?
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on May 21, 2008 6:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Also, I said he pitched poorly, but not seven earned runs bad...
You’re playing semantics here to try and discredit my statement.
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on May 21, 2008 6:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why is that?
You think he pitched bad enough to give up 7 ER?
I don’t think you realize how bad a 7 ER start really is, and to say his line shows that is outrageous to me. 9 hits in 6 innings with a walk and 2 homeruns doesn’t say 7 ER.
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on May 21, 2008 6:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t think he was as bad as his line suggested. We know for a fact one of the HR wouldn’t have gone out except for wind, it was just one of those days. Remember, Gomes misplayed a ball horribly in LF too that lead to a run that shouldn’t have scored. So while it was a subpar outing for Sonny’s standards, it was a bit inflated by things out of his control. And that’s the way it goes sometimes.
Even Shields, and for that matter, even guys like Peavy have clunkers. Our pitching has been outstanding lately and we can’t expect it to keep up the way it has.
The A’s are a good baseball team. I’m not ashamed, we took 2 out of 3 in Oakland. Any other year we would’ve been lucky to win one game.
by Joshua Downie on May 21, 2008 6:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think Gomes misplayed the ball that bad...
It wasn’t a great play, but to blame the poor outing on Gomes is a mistake…
As far as any of those balls not being out if it weren’t for the wind, they were also hit out of that stadium which supresses offense.
For RJ, Sonny’s FIPS was 9+ this game, so I guess his line does suggest a 7 run outting…
by rglass44 on May 21, 2008 7:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
For RJ, Sonny’s FIPS was 9+ this game, so I guess his line does suggest a 7 run outting…
FIPs is always higher than ERA, but I’ve been corrected.
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on May 21, 2008 7:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
it doesn't take into account xbh as well
which is what killed sonny today
by rglass44 on May 21, 2008 7:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Gomes should’ve caught the ball from what Dave and Andy were saying. And anyway, I wasn’t blaming his outing on Gomes. It was just one factor in why his line was a bit unrealistic. You pretty much missed the point of my post entirely.
by Joshua Downie on May 21, 2008 7:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
it wasn't an easy catch
Carl may make the catch, but it would be a good catch
"I'd hate to leave right when the getting is good." -CC
by Matt Bishoff on May 21, 2008 7:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i watched the game...
thought both homers were no doubters, and there were a few other deep fly balls. don’t remember a double that gomes should have caught. he was getting hit sharply all game, as even the singles were line drives in front of people…
by rglass44 on May 21, 2008 7:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Gomes misplayed the ball
By playing too close to the wall, and thus misplaying the carom and watching it bounce over his head on the way back. Few if any LF’ers would have actually caught the ball.
by GomesSweetGomes on May 21, 2008 8:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Once again, the #s don't tell the whole story. When you get hit hard, it makes each hit count more.
by save_the_trop on May 21, 2008 6:32 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Did you watch the game?
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on May 21, 2008 6:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not today. I followed online and I saw doubles following doubles and multiple homeruns.
by save_the_trop on May 21, 2008 6:34 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I know that at least one of those doubles was a Gomes mess up.
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on May 21, 2008 6:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Stop defending Sonnanstine. You seem to have a bias towards him, and yet you despise Jackson.
by Cory Alexander on May 21, 2008 6:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Right. Because saying "He didn't pitch bad enough to give up seven earned runs." Is going out of my way to lay praise.
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on May 21, 2008 6:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The bias is obvious. It's the only reason I stopped being a lurker and started posting. I couldn't take it anymore.
by save_the_trop on May 21, 2008 6:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's not bias
why must some people think that every argument that is for one player getting reps and for benching another is always borne out of some sort of personal grudge?
You’re being ridiculous.
by JI on May 21, 2008 6:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I still don't get what I said...
That heaped praise on Sonny. To equate this to a car accident:
“Hey, you nearly totaled the car, but at least you didn’t get hurt right!?”
I guess I’m bias towards wrecked cars over new cars too.
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on May 21, 2008 7:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
We're not that quality.
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on May 21, 2008 7:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe it's an unconscious bias, but it's evident to anyone who pays attention to the wording of your posts.
by save_the_trop on May 21, 2008 7:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I use the same #'s for both...
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on May 21, 2008 7:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
RJ words depend on his numbers
He makes observations based on facts not on bias.
"I'd hate to leave right when the getting is good." -CC
by Matt Bishoff on May 21, 2008 7:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He definitely relies on the #s, but you can still detect the bias in his word choices
by save_the_trop on May 21, 2008 7:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Filler > facts, obviously.
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on May 21, 2008 7:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
you are entitled to your opinion
but i strongly disagree
"I'd hate to leave right when the getting is good." -CC
by Matt Bishoff on May 21, 2008 7:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Filler > facts, obviously.
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on May 21, 2008 7:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
First, take into account that the first 2 innings he gave up 0 hits and 0 walks....
that means he gave up 9 hits and a walk in 4 innings. Now, take into account that 2 of those hits were homers and many were double, and 7 er sounds reasonable.
by save_the_trop on May 21, 2008 6:42 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
It's semantics. I don't think any of our pitchers (minus Glover) has put out a 7 ER performance this year.
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on May 21, 2008 6:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's funny what about this 7 ER from Sonnanstine last month.
Apr 14 NYY L 8-7 3.1 9 7 7 3 1
by hellickson on May 21, 2008 7:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Shields v.Boston as well apparently.
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on May 21, 2008 7:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sometimes, I feel like SABR stats are the numerical equivalent of semantics.
by save_the_trop on May 21, 2008 6:54 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I haven't quoted on sabermetric stat in this entire post.
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on May 21, 2008 6:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
one*
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on May 21, 2008 6:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sabermetrics are an attempt to take away some of the gut-feeling aspect of analyzing performances and leave it more to objective formulas.
It’s nothing sinister.
by Joshua Downie on May 21, 2008 6:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Terrible outting...
2 homers and 4 doubles is awful…
His OPS against today was 1.036. He was just getting drilled all over the field.
by rglass44 on May 21, 2008 7:06 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
It was a bad outing, the worst we've seen in a few weeks.
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on May 21, 2008 7:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
as long as we don't make a habit of it
a quality start didnt get the win today the way the bats looked. granted they were in a hole, but we were still in it for a while…
by rglass44 on May 21, 2008 7:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Being in it has heped the last two nights.
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on May 21, 2008 7:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Have Perspective
This is just a blog written by fans. They have no control over the team. Smarter people are in control of the team, so don’t worry if they have stupid opinion.
by hellickson on May 21, 2008 7:20 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I'm glad you've reached this amazing conclusion on your own.
The sky is also blue, just to save you a few minutes.
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on May 21, 2008 7:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sonny had a great day
6 K to 1 BB. I would take that ratio every outing no matter the results.
by hellickson on May 21, 2008 7:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Its silly to reduce pitching performances and throw out data such as hits.
Why do you throw out data when evaluating a single performance? I would think more data gives you a better picture.
by hellickson on May 21, 2008 7:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
so basing his opinion on facts is stupid?
"I'd hate to leave right when the getting is good." -CC
by Matt Bishoff on May 21, 2008 7:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
LMAO!!!
It’s so obvious where the bias is. Ive seen it all year, but it continues today after Sonnanstine gets his head smached in. How about those “sustainable stats”. Sonnanstine gets hit hard, a lot. Dont know what stat tells you that. Other than maybe ERA and hits allowed. Meh, thsoe arent fun enough stats to talk about
btw, I draw no comparisons between Sonny and Shields. You explain off Sonnys problems by showing Shields problems in Boston? I havent seen to omany guys getting the sweet spot on Shields’ pitches, yet everyone seems to get a good lick on Sonny. I really dont see how you can compare a good pitcher who has a rare bad outing to a an average pitcher who routinely has bad outings
by blazinrayz on May 21, 2008 7:25 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Because we were discussing seven run outings.
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on May 21, 2008 7:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t think you realize how bad a 7 ER start really is
I knwo giving up 1 ER is pretty bad, atleast when Jackson’s pitching. He give sup 1 ER and we nearly run him out of town!
by blazinrayz on May 21, 2008 7:27 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
You also wanted Griffey Jr. over Bonds, it all makes sense.
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on May 21, 2008 7:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Examples of biased wording...
Jackson 5.1 ip 1 er – “less than impressive”
Sonny 6 ip 7 er- “doesn’t appear he pitched bad enough to give up 7 er”
No bias in those comments
by save_the_trop on May 21, 2008 7:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
"Hey, at least you didn't total the car!"
Versus “That car is nice, but I don’t like the paint job.”
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on May 21, 2008 7:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
you are nitpicking what you want for your argument
"I'd hate to leave right when the getting is good." -CC
by Matt Bishoff on May 21, 2008 7:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, it shows up over and over again. Do you want more examples?
by save_the_trop on May 21, 2008 7:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
you are taking 2 comments in completely different context
and comparing them
"I'd hate to leave right when the getting is good." -CC
by Matt Bishoff on May 21, 2008 7:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Read the game thread of that one run performance.
I was the biggest Jackson fan in that thing. My ego isn’t that big, I know damn well how stupid I am.
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on May 21, 2008 7:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I use the same #'s for both...
You apply the numbers that suggest positive future results to Sonny, and you spin every semi-not good thing about Jackson into a reason he shouldnt be here.
You do a pretty good job of spinning the truth so that it doesnt make things youve said in the past make you look bad. Instead of just reporting things how they happen, even if it means you sounded like a moron 1 week ago. Id say thats the way to go if you want to have some integrity
I said I would take Griffey over Bonds, but how does that suggest I wnated Griffey? What does this have to do with the discussion? How old are you?
by blazinrayz on May 21, 2008 7:33 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
no no no
He has said since last year that edwin needs to limit his walking…he doesn’t change his argument every start to just ridicule Jackson….this is coming from someone who is extremely pro-Jackson
"I'd hate to leave right when the getting is good." -CC
by Matt Bishoff on May 21, 2008 7:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And I’ve simply warned his hit rates will likely take a hit back to normality and that walking four per nine while allowing similar hit rates will make this improvement look very fluky.
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on May 21, 2008 7:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
thats not true
He has said since last year that edwin needs to limit his walking…he doesn’t change his argument every start to just ridicule Jackson….this is coming from someone who is extremely pro-Jackson
"I'd hate to leave right when the getting is good." -CC
by Matt Bishoff on May 21, 2008 7:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
btw
a) Griffey can still play the OF
b) Griffey is 39, Bonds is 44
c) Griffey can still run the bases
d) Maybe points a-c are reasons that Griffey still has a job, where the juice monkey does not
by blazinrayz on May 21, 2008 7:35 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
btw
a. not really
b. so
c. you have to get on base to run them
d. stupid people are the reason for that
by rglass44 on May 21, 2008 7:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
drrrr... stats
I know you will counter about how your scouting eye tells you griffey is better but, let’s try an impartial look at each player since 2006…
griff- 297 games: .264/.350/.474/.824/ 61 HRs/ 6 sb
bonds- 256 games: .273/.468/.554/1.023/ 54 HRs/ 8 sbs
Bonds is killing him in rate stats, and isn’t far behind in HRs even though he’s played in 40 less games (griff has been in 44 in 2008), and has more SB. So, which guy can run the bases better?
Not to mention the fact that Bonds comes at a much cheaper price, only money and probably less of it than Griff makes.
by rglass44 on May 21, 2008 7:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Read this.
It’s by a man hundreds of times smarter than both of us:
http://www.insidethebook.com/ee/index.php/site/comments/sabermetric_moves_of_the_2008_pre_season/#158
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on May 21, 2008 7:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I hate Sonnanstine!
There I said it. Now I have credibility! This post is absurd.
a) Yes he can, and he’s the worst starting defensive OF in the league.
b) And the last time he had a season with an OPS higher than Bonds was last year was 1994. And for the record, that was the only time his OPS was higher than Bonds was last year.
c) umm, not well. He’s slow as dirt
d) Nope a huge LTD is. Bonds had one of those until he was 43. Oh and collusion.
Tools Whore
Sign Bonds!
by Tyler on May 21, 2008 8:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sonny gets more love when he implodes than Jackson does when he goes 9 innings 0 ER
by blazinrayz on May 21, 2008 7:36 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I gave him love?
Show me the “love” I said HE DIDN’T PITCH BAD ENOUGH TO GIVE UP SEVEN EARNED RUNS. That’s not a compliment at all.
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on May 21, 2008 7:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's Clear
R.J. is a racist he doesn’t like Jackson because he’s….German
mvn.com/mlb-rays
by Tommy Rancel on May 21, 2008 7:46 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
RJ is guilty of appeasement
He is appeasing the evil leaders of other blogs. DRaysBay should never negotiate with other blogs. I think he is a long lost relative of Neville Chamberlain.
by Jason Collette on May 21, 2008 7:51 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
yes I'm replying to myself
Where’s the praise here? I’m still not seeing it in this piece. I didn’t watch the game but I can look at that plot graph and predict the line. Anytime Sonny is throwing that many pitches centered and that many fastballs elevated, it isn’t going to be a pretty start.
by Jason Collette on May 21, 2008 7:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Is that seriously what you think?
You think it is that UNCLEAR? Whatever man, Im just looking for some good honest reporting but I guess all RJs lil buddies will run to his defense, with no real explanation for anything.
Its all just become very ammusing to me the past several months (not just rj, the entire Sonny v Jackson thing). Sonny has a career 5.45 ERA and has given up a lot of hits. Yet Jackson has steadily shown signs of inching towards consistency since last year but there3 is still a clear bias for Sonny out of a lot of people, no matter what continues to happen
by blazinrayz on May 21, 2008 7:53 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
i agree about e-jax v. sonny...
I think RJ probably agrees about E-Jax being better, but I think most still have the “we’ll see how long this lasts w/ e-jax” feeling. The problem is that you attack a stupid off-comment remark rather than looking at a post describing how in fact sonny was so bad today…
by rglass44 on May 21, 2008 8:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Your problem...
Is with, “Really it doesn’t appear he pitched bad enough to give up seven earned; 6 innings, 9 hits and a walk, and six strikeouts on 100 pitches.”
6 innings, 10 baserunners with 6 strikeouts typically does not equate to 7 ER. I didn’t see the game but based on those numbers I would have guessed most of the hits went for extra base hits and there were some defensive problems. The box score shows that half of his baserunners were from extra base hits and people talk about some awful play that Gomes did.
Meanwhile, Jonathan Sanchez had 11 baserunners in 6.1 innings today while striking out 5 yet only gave up 2 runners because only one of his hits allowed went for extra bases. Jackson had 10 base runners in 5.1 innings on Sunday and struck out 7 in that start.
I don’t think any of those starts would be considered effective, but when someone has a 6:1 K/BB ratio, it is odd to see 7 ER. The perceived Sonnanstine bias comes from him being a statistical freak. When comparing him against Jackson, many of us prefer Sonnanstine at times because he does not demonstrate the awful control that got Jackson in trouble in so many of his bad starts in the past and doesn’t melt down as Jackson did in Boston. In the long run, the team would be better served with Sonnanstine in the bullpen as the RH equivalent to what Howell does. If we could somehow mold Jackson’s strengths and Sonnanstine’s strengths into one pitcher, we’d have one hell of a pitcher.
For the record, I’m not one of his little buddies. I’m twice his age, but I appreciate the level of commitment he offers to the analysis of my favorite team.
by Jason Collette on May 21, 2008 8:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This website has lost all credibility as a place to read reasonable analysts of the team.
I think after reading this blog for 2 years, I’ve grown too sick of this Sonnanstine vs. Jackson debate too care anymore.
by hellickson on May 21, 2008 7:53 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
The majority of the debate is done in the comments.
You can’t mention one without readers mentioning the other.
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on May 21, 2008 7:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dude, if you have a problem with this blog, that's your own fault.
This site is one of the best baseball blogs that I have found out there, especially if you’re looking for something covering the Rays. Sure, RJ loves his stats and loves Sonny, but we all have our biases, don’t we? I think no matter what sort of reporting you read, you simply have to take that into account. I mean, do you listen to a Yankee broadcast and expect to hear reasonable analysis about how bad the team is?
Everyone has biases, so you just have to understand that, take it with a grain of salt, and if you don’t agree with it, then just ignore it. When/if you are proved to be right, then come back and laugh at people. But don’t accuse RJ or Matt of not providing “reasonable anaysis”. They are quality bloggers and probably some of the best you’re going to find out there. RJ in particular uses stats and he uses them well so if you don’t agree with some of his conclusions, it’s more a problem of you not agreeing with the numbers than RJ being a bad blogger. So if you don’t believe the numbers, fine, don’t believe them. But don’t take it out on them.
by Steve Slowinski on May 21, 2008 8:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wait!!
we had credibility? this is a cause for celebration
"I'd hate to leave right when the getting is good." -CC
by Matt Bishoff on May 21, 2008 8:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
lol...at least to me you do.
Keep up the good work guys
by Steve Slowinski on May 21, 2008 8:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
6 innings, 10 baserunners with 6 strikeouts typically does not equate to 7 ER.
that’s the thing. Nobody saw the game, but knowing Sonny when he gets hit, he gets hit hard. Lots of XBHs and just balls being hit hard in general. So it is easy to see how he could give up 10 baserunners, 2 HR and 7 ER.
by blazinrayz on May 21, 2008 8:12 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I don't think anyone needed to see the game as the pitch chart above tells the tale
I’m a big Sonny fan, as well as Jackson, as well as Shields, and obviously from my self-given moniker I’m a Kazmir fan. It is because I love the RAYS. If you want to blame anyone blame Mad Dog, as much as I hate to say it. Before the game he was quoted as saying that Sonny needs to throw the Fastball, period. If he is getting squeezed he WILL get shelled. Much like Maddux. Much like Moyer. Much like many, many other pitchers that rely on intelligence and command/control.
I think you guys (2-3 people) are a little fed up with RJ’s seeming bias while at the same time ignoring your own obvious bias. I sincerely hope that everytime E-Jax or Sonny has a bad performance we don’t turn this into an, “I told you that bum can’t pitch.” While ignoring the starts when either of them look other worldly. Look at any other team and you will see bad performances happen. How quickly have we become so spoiled that we expect our 4th and 5th pitchers to throw a gem every time out.
Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind.
by Sandy Kazmir on May 21, 2008 8:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I concur 100%
We all have our biases, obviously, and no one seems willing to budge from them at all. Both Sonnanstine and Jackson will have their rough starts, but whoever will turn out to be the most consistent pitcher in the end is a matter of pure conjecture at this point. Both have had brilliant starts this year and both have shown signs of really being a solid pitcher for the whole year, but only time will tell in the end.
So whether you believe in stats and are all about Sonny or whether you’re all about observations and you like Jackson, I think there’s nothing we can do right now than say hey, let’s see how this plays out. Tonight was a bad night by Sonny, but everyone has those every now and then. I’m certainly not going to jump all over Jackson if he has just one bad start. I’ll jump on any of our pitchers if they start to suck consistently in a row, though.
For now, then, we all just need to take chill pills and let this play out. It’s a long season and we’re only just barely over a 1/4th of the way there. A lot can happen between now and the end. Pointless arguing where no one changes their opinions or is willing to listen to the other person’s argument is not going to get us anywhere.
by Steve Slowinski on May 21, 2008 8:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He gave up no runs, walks or hits in the first 2 innings...
So it’s more like 4 innings, 10 baserunners, 2 homeruns, 4 doubles. That easily = 7 runs
by save_the_trop on May 21, 2008 9:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
the awful control that got Jackson in trouble in so many of his bad starts in the past and doesn’t melt down as Jackson did in Boston.
Jackson has pitched as good as anyone on this team (other than Kazmir) when he is in a jam. I dont understand that at all.
This is what I mean, the game isnt played on paper. I could careless how pretty Sonnys B:K rate looks as long as he still has marginal “stuff” and chooses to throw to zones instead of spots, he is going to get hit hard by every lineup in this league. There is no stat that will tell you that
by blazinrayz on May 21, 2008 8:15 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
nothing to do with how you pitch with runners on base
it has to do with putting runners on base at a consistent basis
"I'd hate to leave right when the getting is good." -CC
by Matt Bishoff on May 21, 2008 8:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
WHIP...
If you don’t factor in XBH then whip is totally worthless.
by matthan on May 21, 2008 9:05 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
The closest to that is BPIP which I helped to "create" so to speak.
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on May 21, 2008 9:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m not really familiar with that so I can’t comment on that specifically. Regarding this thread I actually like Sonny. I think he can be a pretty solid major leaguer. I think we currently have 4 guys that have higher ceilings and should reach those ceilings. I also think we have some guys in the minors that will also be better than Sonny. So the view that I’m “down” on Sonny is more of an indication of how “high” I am on our other players. Regarding Jackson specifically he just doesn’t get hit hard. His WHIP may be higher than what I’d like to see, but he strikes out plenty of guys and simply doesn’t give up the hits (especially XBH) with men on base. There is just a huge difference between a walk with a man on 2nd and a single with a man on 2nd.
There is a reason why Jacksons ERA is very good this year while Sonny's isn't. It isn't luck.by matthan on May 21, 2008 9:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sonny has been ok this year and I hope he will improve...
but where will any major improvement come from. If he already has great control and still gets hit, it seems to me that he will always be very hittable.
by save_the_trop on May 21, 2008 9:34 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
i dont see why this is so hard to believe
he retired the first 8 batters, so in 4.1 innings he gave up 9 hits, 1bb, only 3 k, 18 total bases. on the season his batters’ ops against is close to .800. k/bb within i single game can mean very little if batters are slugging .600 against you in that game.
by pmoc on May 22, 2008 1:04 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Jackson+Sonnanstine=100 Comments
If only Elijah Dukes were still here, we’d be having even more 100 comment threads.
by Patrick L. Kennedy on May 22, 2008 12:56 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
That would put his comments:hits at
50:1
Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind.
by Sandy Kazmir on May 22, 2008 1:48 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Also, I thought I would throw in the fact that
his OPS+ is -20. On the plus side he hasn’t impregnated anyone. (As far as we know)
Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind.
by Sandy Kazmir on May 22, 2008 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
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