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2 Myths of the POWW

These are just a couple of things that I have peeved me over the last couple days when dealing with stadium issues. One other tidbit that RJ showed me for those of you worried about attendance number:

"In 1991 the Braves went from 65 wins to 94 and their overall attendance jumped from 12k to 26k. Through May 27th of 1991 their home attendance was roughly 19k per game, ours is 18k per game."

1. The Team Could Come to Tampa - This is the biggest myth that I have heard during the whole stadium politics process. I have heard members of the POWW make the idea of the team moving to Tampa, if the new stadium is shot down, seem to be feasible. You can even hear Lee Nolan of the POWW say this in his interview on the Bobby Fenton show yesterday. You can find the podcast of this interview here . To move the team to Tampa the team would have to buy their way out of their remaining lease with St. Pete.

If this stadium proposal does not go through, the ownership group has been adamant that they will not stay in the Trop for much longer. If the team is going to fork over the funds to buy out the lease, they will move the team to the place that will be the best investment for the team. That will not be Tampa! When I interviewed Aaron Sharockman, he said that he feels there is no chance at all of this team moving to Tampa. This is coming from the person who I think is the more informed than anyone on this topic. No matter how much many of us might want it, this team is not coming to Tampa anytime soon.

2. Stadium Would Have Negative Impact on Business -

"A common misconception is that a new downtown stadium is that a new downtown stadium would somehow be good for local business. In fact, a new waterfront ballpark combined with a huge retail center where the Trop is now would have a negative impact on downtown businesses, many of them already struggling."

This quote is taken directly from the front page of the POWW official website. First notice the word in that paragraph that I have put in bold. They didn't use "could", rather that use "would". They say "would" as if they can guarantee that this stadium would have a negative impact on downtown business. If you click through, the evidence that they show to back this statement is laughable.

"Study after study has shown the myth that sports stadiums are good for local businesses to be just that, a myth."

This is how they start their argument, yet they do not state one single study on the website that has shown this to be true. This past semester in school I studied facility funding in a graduate level class. There have been many different studies done on this topic and the results vary. The ultimate conclusion is that it is a case by case situation.

Currently at Rays games, the stadium is surrounded by parking. With parking being a huge issue with the new stadium, it is clear that there might be a walk on the way to and fro the games. This is a downtown area that is filled with businesses that will be passed by 15,000 extra people 80 times a year.

"There is a basic concept in Economics called Opportunity Cost, which occurs when people spend time and money on one thing and are therefore unable to spend that same time and money on something equally desirable.  It's a fundamental concept.

But they want us to believe there somehow won't be any opportunity cost when it comes to the new stadium, that both time and money will magically become more abundant, just because there is now a new thing to spend them on.  Not likely."

This is the last point I will tackle on this topic. They use opportunity cost as their main argument as to why the stadium would be a disaster for local business. Forgetting that they show no statistics to back this, they completely ignore the largest opportunity cost. The opportunity cost of losing the team, which could happen if this proposal is not passed.

According to the Transportation and Parking Study, 46% of season ticket holders come to games via a bridge over the bay.  What is the opportunity cost of these residents from outside of St. Pete that would be spending their money elsewhere with no team in the area, over what they would be spending in St. Pete if there were a new stadium. The 46% is just for season ticket holders. One would expect that more single game purchases would come from tourists and visitors from the other side of the Bay, which would make the opportunity cost even more for St. Pete. The same money will be available, but consumers would have a choice to spend that money in Tampa or St. Pete

1 recs | Comment 33 comments

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POWW

Those that support POWW have been relying on personal attacks and mysterious stats that they refuse to support. If you read Sharockman’s Ballpark Frankness blog and the comments that go along with it from POWW members it’s highly laughable.

www.citadel-insurance.com

by SeanDubbs on May 28, 2008 2:24 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

In all earnest

If this gets on the Ballot, it’ll probably get passed. Both papers will tear POWW’s arguments apart, and the Rays have the money to drown out their voice. POWW’s arguments are paper-thin at best, and insulting to my intelligence at their worst.

by kericr on May 28, 2008 3:53 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I sure hope so

Although living part-time in Shore Acres, it depresses me to see the amount of “NO NEW WATERFRONT $TADIUM” signs in people’s yards. Seriously, red is going from my favorite color to a source of anger for me. Thanks, POWW. Why not choose yellow?

by Patrick L. Kennedy on May 28, 2008 9:22 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Economics

Lots of Economics papers have been written on this subject. Just google scholar for them, they are nice reads.

by Sorry About Dresden on May 28, 2008 3:38 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

i still don’t know what POWW is?

9 = 8

by websterjtc on May 28, 2008 3:53 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Anti-stadium group

Protect
Our
Wallets
and Waterfront.

Priorities listed in correct order.

"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena

by R.J. Anderson on May 28, 2008 4:03 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Aren’t they made up of bunch of residents from Bayfront Towers?

by JMB on May 28, 2008 8:19 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Not entirely

Certainly a lot of downtown condo owners make up the backbone of the organization’s support. Others are just activists that get involved in everything. The only one I’ve heard of that is an important individual is Kathleen Ford, who was a City Councilwoman and ran against Mayor Baker in 2001 and lost.

by Patrick L. Kennedy on May 28, 2008 9:23 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

So what's...

So what’s the best way to support the stadium? Unfortunately, at this point POWW is much better organized than any pro-stadium group that I’m aware of. The sign are all over the lawns as I run through the northeast/snell isle area of st. pete.

Demon Deacons

by jquigley on May 28, 2008 4:06 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Nice seeing you back around here jquigley.

"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena

by R.J. Anderson on May 28, 2008 4:08 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Pro stadium group

I seriously doubt the POWW is better organized than the Rays.

by kericr on May 28, 2008 4:10 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Agreed

I’ve got to give them credit. They popped up relatively quickly and are extremely well-organized. They’ve proliferated their message quickly and more widely with less resources than the Rays have, for better or worse. I’ve been disappointed in the Rays’ response. They’re coming around, but Fans for Waterfront Stadium, the chief group in favor, has been late to the game and hasn’t gotten their message across nearly as well. Really, POWW came on the scene quick and seized the floor. Look at the Long John Silver’s thing we put on the site this week. This type of thing has played itself out for the last several months. They are setting the tone of the agenda, and they are getting their vociferous sympathizers out to civic meetings. They are a very formidable opposition group.

by Patrick L. Kennedy on May 28, 2008 9:28 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

please

rip these signs down at every chance

by LeftRight on May 28, 2008 8:31 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

No

People have the right to express their opinions on their own property and on the property of those who consent to having them there. But I would recommend taking down signs on public property, such as rights-of-way and medians. The public’s land is not to be used as a political statement, either way.

by Patrick L. Kennedy on May 28, 2008 9:25 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   1 recs

See the notes on RaysBB about the pro-stadium guy whose lawn signs keep getting ripped off.

Do not think that what is hard for you to master is humanly impossible; but if a thing is humanly possible, consider it to be within your reach.

by Orlando Rays on May 29, 2008 12:01 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I've been waiting to comment on this...

I waited on line last week with about 100 other people outside St. Pete city hall. All I wanted was to fill out a pro-stadium comment card for me and my wife because I had to pick her up at the airport. When I first arrived at the line I was shocked at all the red POWW signs. Except for myself and the 30-something guy standing next to me it looked like the whole line was against the stadium. Fortunately, when the Fans For Waterfront Stadium guys showed up and handed out blue signs I noticed I had about 20 fellow supporters on line (we were still way outnumbered). By the time I left work was out and the stadium supporters were gaining strength.

The most telling observation was that the battle lines appear to mostly age-related.
I would say 90% of the anti-stadium crowd was over 60 and 90% of the pro-stadium crowd was under 40. I hate to generalize, but most of the rest of the anti-crowd was a bunch of dirty-looking hippy types (reverse mullets, gray beards that hadn’t been trimmed in years, etc.) that didn’t care a lick about baseball.

I also was shocked at how downright nasty and vocal a lot of the anti-stadium crowd was. When two young guys in suits tried to hold up a big blue banner the anti-crowd around them went absolutely crazy! I’ve never seen senior citizens whipped up into such a fervor…it was almost scary.

Anyway, it’s nice to see the blue signs making a small comeback in the Shore Acres area. I think Snell Isle, with all that old money, is a lost cause.

You can go to fansforwaterfrontstadium.com for pro-stadium signs.

Jamie DeLuca

by JDeLuca on May 28, 2008 4:18 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I think this happens

because anti-stadium people tend to be more vocal while the pro-stadium crowd tends to be more passive.

by JMB on May 28, 2008 8:21 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That's true

The people on the pro side of the stadium thing aren’t nearly as dedicated to the cause. For them, it seems to just be a good thing and not much of a passion. Opponents, on the other hand, are very passionate in their opposition for whatever reason, be it opposition to the usage of public money, public waterfront land, or whatever.

by Patrick L. Kennedy on May 28, 2008 9:30 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The funny thing about POWW is...

They put the thing about attendance, yet they probably don’t even go to the games(sure didn’t look like it during the Texas Series, that drew a whopping 35ish K for the 3 games?).

If they want to support the Trop, why don’t they have the signs and crap visible during the games…

why….because they’re fucking Boston Red Sox/New York Yankee fans or outright hypocrites.

by Jacob Larsen on May 28, 2008 8:24 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

whopping 35ish K

Average attendance for midweek games vs. Rangers:

2005: 8,807 (April)
2006: 7,221 (May)
2006 (Part 2): 8,750 (August)
2007: (moved to Orlando – May): 8,972
2008: 11,204 (May)

By my calculations, the Rays averaged over 25% better average attendance against the Rangers than in any other home Rangers series in the last three years.

*attendance numbers obtained from retrosheet.org

Longlorious.

by RATW on May 28, 2008 9:13 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Next year we'll play them in Vegas.

"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena

by R.J. Anderson on May 28, 2008 9:28 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yeah

It really is the placement of these games. Weekend games, particularly Saturday nights, do far better no matter the opponent. That’s why I didn’t get Topkin’s complaints in the off-season about the lack of Yankees and Sox games on the weekend this year. I think that’s good. It takes the attendance totals against those teams, which will be respectable no matter the placement of the series, and places them in attendance slots that would otherwise be filled by teams like Kansas City and Texas, who would not draw in the same slot. If you stick those games against the Royals and Rangers on the weekend, attendance instantly improves, no questions asked. With the other 11 AL teams, weekend placement matters.

by Patrick L. Kennedy on May 28, 2008 9:42 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'm glad somebody researched this

I knew the Rays were drawing more, the weekday series against the Rangers have always had exceptionally low draws, 11k is a vast improvement for this series. The numbers are still low, but by no means are they dissapointing.

by kericr on May 28, 2008 11:03 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I don't think they're bandwagon fans

I think they have legitimate concerns. Some of them are a bit too zealous and, um, false, in what they say, but the concerns they have are legitimate. I would wager that the balance of them probably don’t support baseball, you are correct on that front, and by extension they don’t support the Trop.

There’s also a lot of paranoia lingering from the process that resulted in the Florida Suncoast Dome. A lot of people were embittered by that being rammed through the city council without a public vote, and they were unhappy with how little say they had at the expenditure. There is also a lot of people still bitter about the failed Bay Plaza efforts of the 1990s that occurred at the behest of Mayor Ulrich and the city. That resulted in public investment for developments that never came, and torn down historic structures (Soreno Hotel, for instance). A lot of people associate the Trop with those grander failures, and they flat out refuse to broach anything similar. I wish that these people would evaluate this plan on its merits, but I don’t fault people for being suspicious with the prior experiences this city has had.

Again, there is a certain anti-progress element there. People that, for whatever reason, usually selfishness, don’t want to see the city grow. There’s a lot of nativist opposition to out of town-led growth, and at the same time there are lots of people that have re-settled here from big northern cities that don’t want to see the city grow to that size.

All I can say is, hopefully the Sunshine City will progress and the proponents of this plan will outnumber opponents on election day.

by Patrick L. Kennedy on May 28, 2008 9:39 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

They use opportunity cost as their main argument as to why the stadium would be a disaster for local business. Forgetting that they show no statistics to back this

I talked about this in the fanshots, and its just not true.

If you have a nice stadium surrounded by a lively part of town, people will spend extra time and extra money before and after the game to party. Ive been to 18 stadiums around teh country, and I have experienced this first hand. These people at POWW, like with all their a=other aguments, just completely make things up out of thin aiur just like the “expected” Long John Silver promotions on the stadium. Its all just BS with no actual evidence that it will happen, but thats hwo they want to sway voters wh o are undecided and uneducated into making poor decision.

by blazinrayz on May 28, 2008 9:04 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I don't see how it would even affect anything negatively

The stadium is displacing an old stadium that isn’t being used anymore. I can see how they might have an argument if the parcel being used is currently occupied by other businesses. But it’s not. It’s not even a change of land use at the proposed site.

Do not think that what is hard for you to master is humanly impossible; but if a thing is humanly possible, consider it to be within your reach.

by Orlando Rays on May 29, 2008 12:06 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

how is 11,000 in attendance no bad?

we are the best team in baseball

I have sat here and defended our fans, and told people that you have to give us more time to come out to the park because we have been snake bitten before. But I wont agree that attendance is showing great signs of improvement

So you have dug up numebrs that show our attendance is better v the Rangers this year, than in years past. Well teh creator of the thread already told us we are on pace for our 4th best year attendance wise. SO what do a few games v the Rangers matter in the big picture?

Whetehr we are drawing 3,000 more people to see the RAngers or not, we will still have only our 4th best attendance ever. I think that the otehr 78 games we play at home have a bigger impact on attendance fighures than 1 home series vs the Rangers

I could see attendance steadily increasing, atleast thats what I plan on happening through the summer. But I wont lie, our attendance is pathetic righht now and it is obvious if you hear any of our players or coaches talk about it

by blazinrayz on May 28, 2008 11:07 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Because 1/3 a year of good baseball isn't going to erase a decade of sucktitude

Wait until the playoffs. The Marlins pulled 17k/game in the 2003 regular season, but no less than 61,000 in the playoffs.

Do not think that what is hard for you to master is humanly impossible; but if a thing is humanly possible, consider it to be within your reach.

by Orlando Rays on May 29, 2008 12:04 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Attendance

The other night ESPN said the Rays are outdrawing the Yankees in road games by nearly 3,000 fans per night.

by floridaroar on May 29, 2008 1:06 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

We’ve played a lot of road games in big stadiums though. That could be a mirage. Plus the Yankees had to play “here”, which obviously brought down their road totals.

by matthan on May 29, 2008 9:10 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

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