Crawford is having a good year
Walks have never turned into doubles or triples, and they've never scored the man from 2nd. Im not downplaying the importance of the walk, rather I am accentuating the value of putting the ball in play.
Crawford has hit in the .300 range all year (currently .287), and he has 8 XBH. He is on pace for 90 RBI and 120 runs scored. And some of you actually wonder why he isnt being taught to look at more pitches? You don't tell guys like Vlad Guerrero what not to swing at. Sure these guys make ugly swings and pick up frustrating outs sometimes, but they are who they are because they arent constricted.
I'll take a guy who is going to hit .300 with a .330 OBP over a guy who hits .250 with a .350 OBP. Walks dont produce immediate runs (and with the way this team has hit in clutch situations the past couple years, those runs come around to score at an even lower rate), and guys with low BA cant be relied on in clutch ABs.
His defense has become so consistent and expected, that some people forget that 1/3 of the OF never sees the ball touch the grass. That alone should keep him from the scrutiny some people are directing his way
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Don't forget
The reigning NL MVP had a .344 OBP last year and nearly as many doubles as he had BBs. Just goes to show how much value a guy with speed/power who puts the ball in play can have to an offense.
by blazinrayz on May 6, 2008 4:57 PM EDT 0 recs
OBPS
You also cant forget that Rollins had 30 Home Runs with a OBPS of .875 and Crawford only had 11 Homeruns and a OBPS of .811. Sometimes I wish CC would accept that he is what he is and that is a alley to alley doubles hitter with not a lot of HR power and a ton of speed. He seems to want to think he is a middle of the order type guy ( I remember reading somewhere in the off-season he said he was most comftorble hitting 3rd). If he put his mind to it and just took some pitches I think he could be one of the best leadoff hitters in the game. His game reminds me of Jose Reyes but he doesnt seem to want that.
by Dbullsfan on
May 6, 2008 6:26 PM EDT
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A Walk + Steal is just as good as a double. And a walk is better than flying out on the first pitch.
mvn.com/mlb-rays
by TommyR on May 6, 2008 5:03 PM EDT 0 recs
And David Wright should’ve won the NL MVP last year anyway, He had .416 OBP and lets not forget he also walked 94 times.
mvn.com/mlb-rays
by TommyR on May 6, 2008 5:08 PM EDT 0 recs
The hell he is
League average player: .258 .331 .401
Crawford: .287 .310 .397
Jimmy Rollins last year: .296 .344 .531
Crawford career: .296 .330 .438
To keep the stupid ass comparison train going, Vlad’s career low OBP is .350. That’s decimal-3-5-0 Carl’s career high is .355.
To sum this up: Carl is hitting below league standards, isn’t Jimmy Rollins (or close), and doesn’t get walked like Vlad. And this:
“I’ll take a guy who is going to hit .300 with a .330 OBP over a guy who hits .250 with a .350 OBP.”
Congratulations, you like your hitters with approximately 6% more outs, that’s exactly the way to go in order to maintain a losing way.
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on May 6, 2008 5:15 PM EDT 0 recs
I'd be extremely happy
I Crawford had the patience of Vlad Guerrero. This would mean he walks 60 or so times a year as opposed to 35.
by GomesSweetGomes on May 6, 2008 5:20 PM EDT 0 recs
No excuse
CC absolutely needs to start taking more pitches and getting on base through walks. He could see a lot better pitches if he didn’t hack at everything, and that would no doubt lead to a better batting average as well. Being more selective at the plate is really the last piece of his development puzzle. If he can do that he will be a truly complete player.
The artist formerly known as TonyT
by acelion on May 6, 2008 5:20 PM EDT 0 recs
For a player like Crawford, who relies on his activity on the bases...
.280 and a .350 OBP is way better than .300 and .310 OBP.
by SaberToothedPie on May 6, 2008 5:21 PM EDT 0 recs
Look at Rickey Henderson.
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on
May 6, 2008 5:23 PM EDT
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Absolutely
A player with great speed needs to find any way he can to get on base. He can steal second once he gets there, and third for that matter.
In the end though, I don’t think CC needs to settle for one or the other. If he is more selective he will draw more walks, which will raise his OBP. At the same time he will see better pitches to hit, which will increase both his BA and his OBP. Why not a Carl that hits .300+ with a .350+ OBP? I think it could happen if he was more selective.
The artist formerly known as TonyT
by acelion on
May 6, 2008 5:26 PM EDT
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It has happened and that was fine, but he's not at that level right now, and that's the problem.
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on
May 6, 2008 5:31 PM EDT
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Where did you go to school?
Since when is a .330 OBP >>> .350 OBP?
Crawford is under-utilizing his skills. He is swinging at pitches he cannot do much with. Vlad has the power to hit those pitches safely in play. Crawford has to rely on his legs to run those grounders out.
To your point about high average low OBP >>> low average high OBP; Jack Cust has created more runs per 27 outs since the start of the 2007 season than Crawford has. Crawford has only been slightly above league average in RC/27 while Cust has been well above it.
by Jason Collette on May 6, 2008 5:23 PM EDT 0 recs
Hey RJ
Thats all yo udo is read stats, when am I goign to see a real physical observation?
120 runs scored. How does a guy score 120 runs and yet is not doing his job on offense? 90 RBIs out of the 2 hole and yet he needs to change something.
Guess what, a walk and a SB isnt teh same as a double. If a runner is on base, they score on a double. They dont score when Crawford walks and steals
So you will take a guy who makes 6% less outs (why am I not surprised that you boil the numbers down this much), but produces less runs? Funny, because I couldve swore winning baseball entailed scoring runs
face it RJ, you are addicted to sabr stats. Crawford is the polar opposite of a moneyball player. So of course you hate him.
A .330 OBp is better than a .350 OBP when you score 120 runs. Where did you go to school mr collette?
Jason Giambi had a .356 OBP last year and over a full season of ABs wouldve scored 90 runs and drove in another 115. Jimmy Rollins had a .344 OBP last year and scored 139 runs and drove in another 94 hitting leadoff! Im sure none of you sabr studs will have an answer for this.
walks dont produce runs the way hits do, and even if Crawford doesnt have HR power that isnt important. He has XBH power, and he racks up lots of those. Which means more RBIs and more runs scored.
by blazinrayz on May 6, 2008 7:00 PM EDT 0 recs
I'll take a stab...
Jason Giambi did not hit for much power.
Jason Giambi had Melky Cabrera (.391 SLG), Robinson Cano (.488 SLG), Matsui (.488 SLG) and Phillips (.373 SLG) hitting behind him.
Jason Giambi is really really slow.
Jimmy Rollins hit for much more power than Jason Giambi and Carl Crawford.
Jimmy Rollins had Chase Utley (.566 SLG), Howard (.584 SLG), and Burrell (.502 SLG) hitting behind him.
Jimmy Rollins is fast.
You can’t point out extremes, but I don’t see how this proves anything. Jason Giambi, with a .350 OBP, would have scored well over 100 runs with Utley, Howard, and Burrell hitting behind him. Especially in that ballpark.
by tallyray on
May 6, 2008 7:26 PM EDT
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I’m not a scout or a trained professional, therefore what I think I see and what I think it means aren’t always correct. I talk to scouts all the time and I have too much respect for them to act like I am.
Carl Crawford’s career high in runs is 104, but I find you using RBIs/Rs a bit troubling, you realize that players in a good lineup are prone to higher R/RBI totals than players in bad lineups, I’m sure, so why judge players based on their lineups?
I’m not addicted to stats, and anyone who’s read my take on Moneyball or anything involving front office approach know that I’m a fan of using stats and scouts at near equal rates. Finding good scouts is harder and more expensive, so if I’m the GM shaping my front office and I don’t have very good financial resources of course I’m going to stack up with statisticians.
Further Crawford isn’t a Moneyball player in the sense you probably think (walks), a Moneyball player is a player undervalued by the market; right now I’d say busted prospects and older players are the “Moneyball” players.
Do I use stats? Obviously, but here’s the thing, the numbers are facts. If I give the readers ranges for the stats I use they’ll be able to do the same thing I do in analyzing the numbers. It’s not all that difficult. Tell me how universal scouting eyes are, for instance explain to me what you see when you examine Aaron Crow’s delivery, do you see anything that might warrant a future injury? A scout friend of mine asked me to do the same, I couldn’t see anything, yet he pointed out something (wrist wrap) that I wouldn’t have caught.
Further I don’t hate Carl Crawford. I wear his jersey around town all the time and check my records, I don’t believe I have a history of bashing him.
As for walks/hits/power the Oakland A’s had 5 players in their lineups with OBPs higher than their SLG%, they scored 15 runs. There are studies all across the internet on the correlation between a number of stats and runs scored, you can argue this graph, but you’re arguing against fact and thousands of prior cases:
Also I must ask, where the hell are you pulling the .330 OBP/120 Runs number from? I’m not sure there’s ever been a player who’s done that. Brandon Phillips had 107 last year with a .331 OBP, not shockingly everyone else above and below him had higher OBPs.
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on
May 6, 2008 7:35 PM EDT
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Ahhh my old friend....
we all know correlation does not equal causation. But, I agree with the general idea. If I didn’t have to work tomorrow I’d do a tidy regression analysis. Not that BlazinRay would concede upon seeing that. Is there any chance he’s DraysBay’s first (that I know of) parody poster? Coming over here all anti-stats trying to rock the boat?
Not a sermon, just a thought…
by rglass44 on
May 6, 2008 11:35 PM EDT
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I conclude
that a player who makes contact more often and walks less often is more valuable than a player who makes contact less often and walks more often.
by blazinrayz on May 6, 2008 7:03 PM EDT 0 recs
It's not about walking/hitting
It’s about doing both in appropriate proportions so he’s getting on base above average. If that means hitting .350 fine, but that fact is that’s not likely to be sustainable, hence why having the skills to walk helps. Look at the last few year’s batting average leaders, then look at their next year’s BA, it’s a very hard stat to keep at any level of consistency because a large amount of hits are pure luck.
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on
May 6, 2008 7:37 PM EDT
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It goes beyond just getting a walk.. how about just getting into a hitter’s count and maximize the at-bat instead of swinging at the first thing that moves? What was the Hinske quote someone posted a few days ago? It seems like as long as it’s not in on his wrists, Crawford going to swing.
Anyways, this topic has been beaten to death.
Longlorious.
by RATW on May 6, 2008 7:03 PM EDT 0 recs
Your argument is based on projection. CC has never scored more than 104 runs in a season infact last year he only scored 93 times. Out of all the the regular players who had a OBP of around .330 only one of the scored over 100 runs and that was Brandon Phillips who had a .331 OBP and scored 107 times. CC would be hard pressed to score 120 runs with his current .310 OBP over the course of a season.
mvn.com/mlb-rays
by TommyR on May 6, 2008 7:27 PM EDT 0 recs
Guess he is lucky to be leading the league in Runs Scored
RS is entirely dependent on others driving him in. If Toby Hall was batting in CCs spot, he would be leading the league in runs scored as well. Aubrey Huff would probably have 50 by now.
When you guys start incorporating real ball in play info into your metrics, get back to me. For now, you can ignore runs scored and I’ll keep them in my valuations, thank you very much.
by ttnorm on May 7, 2008 12:03 AM EDT 0 recs
So, you're ignoring OBP for runs scored? That makes sense...
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on
May 7, 2008 12:57 PM EDT
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Who the He!! said I am ignoring anything
You guy who pat yourselves on the back for working from skepticism are the ones who use statements like “completely misleading” and “Your ignoring OBP for runs scored”. PLain and utter garbage! Does a great disservice to the limited good that sabermetrics have accomplished.
I view valuations as an analysis of moving parts. That seems to me to be the most logical way to view the game. OPS+ OBP RC and most other metrics (that you use as gospel and cut down anyone who doesn’t preach the same orthodoxy) doesn’t rely at all on ball in play information, it relies on results.
Thus approach is ignored…a two out BB with the bases empty to ARod is identical in your metrics to a no out walk to a #9 hitter. Not in mine.
Line drive outs are bad in your book while slow rolling seeing eye hits are good. Not true in my book. And don’t bother with “they all even out” nonsense any mathemetician will tell you that your are in fantasyland. Some guys are going to be 10-15% lucky and some guys will be 10-15% unlucky over the course of a full season. Over a month as where we are now the deviations are much greater, but not according to those who want to justify moving Longoria to the leadoff spot based on his MLB #s (as just one of many examples found around here).
I really have nothing against the pursuit of information directly from results based #s. It has it’s advantages. But the idea that this approach is the only approach is so much manure. In my view that approach pales to an intellignet approach which attempts to understand how the moving parts influence the game.
Your approach relies on an understanding of league norms of results. My approach relies on an analysis of the efficiency of individual players. In my view a 4 hop single through the infield is a win for the pitcher and a loss for the hitter. Why you ignore the physical ball in play analysis is a problem to your superiority claims. I think it is only because you are more comfortable with #s and since info like MPH of batted balls is limited at this point, you discard it completely instead of trying to understand what it all means.
Try watching a game with a stop watch and you will be surprised how many thing you can learn tht you didn’t know. But just don’t tell any sabremetricians if you don’t want to be called a traditional scout (or in other words a heretic).
by ttnorm on
May 8, 2008 12:24 AM EDT
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I think your mistaken...
Everyone that has preached metrics on this thread has done so as a tool to complement scouting. I believe everyone also said that Carl would see more pitches to hit if he was more patient. This is something that scouts agree with. Why do you think they value guys with good eyes so highly? Not just because they believe OBP is the end all beat all. Either way there is definitely room for both views in good front-offices, look at the Sawx and A’s for examples. I’ll take a great scout over a great stat guy any day, but its easier for me to look at the numbers for a thousand games than watch a thousand games so I have to yield to others opinions and numbers to explain the 200 or so hames I watch a year.
by rglass44 on
May 8, 2008 9:45 AM EDT
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Also
You are shooting at a reflection of sabermetricians in a fun house mirror. And ironically, in doing so, you use some of the same ammunition sabermetricians use.
Four points;
1. In referring to luck “evening out”, you are echoing the point sabermetricians make. There is, of course, regression to the mean. Over enough time, that will almost certainly happen. But as you correctly point out, in any one season a player may be more or less lucky. It may even extend over more than a year, although obviously the longer the sample, the more likely it is there will be regression.
Naturally, we are dealing with real people, and not everyone fits neatly into a statistical profile. We are talking about probabilities, about trying to project based on information gathered and interpreted over a long time. We are not ignoring outliers or eccentricities; we are simply not generalizing from them. (I am not using "we" to include myself among sabermetricians, only to represent people who respect their work.)
2. As a matter of fact, sabermetricians are keenly aware of actual balls in play and the speed and arc of pitches and batted balls. There is a great deal of work now being done in tracking such information to see how it affects interpretations of what happens. As you correctly point out, the knowledge is limited right now, but is increasing rapidly. But that has nothing to do with being more comfortable with numbers. The numbers simply are means to make sense of what is happening, but they are based on real events.
3. I cannot emphasize this too much. There is no conflict between sabermetric analysis and scouting; on the contrary they are complements. Of course there are zealots in both camps (camps is a misleading word if it suggests antagonistic groups) who foment that red herring. There are “scouting types” who mock or ignore the advanced statistics and there are pseudo sabermetricians who mock or ignore the scouts. Such silliness is inevitable. But read BP or Baseball Analysts or Hardball Times or any other serious sabermetrically oriented site and you will find regular and heartfelt admiration for scouting insights. As a matter of fact, they often refer to scouting reports, invite scouts to participate in discussions and hire scouting experts for their staffs.
4. This last point is a bit tangential, but it seems to me you use the word “skepticism” quite differently from the way I understand it. In my lexicon, it refers to the willingness to leave viewpoints open to revision, to a disposition to doubt. That does not preclude making assertions or declaring a particular view wrong or misguided. I suppose to be entirely accurate, we should all preface every remark with a statement such as “to this point the evidence indicates that…” and then continue “you are wrong.” But that becomes clunky. The skepticism is implicit in the very approach sabermetricians use which is to ask a question and then seek means to answer it based on more than anecdote or baseball lore. Often, the conclusions vindicate baseball lore, by the way.
So there is nothing contradictory in claiming that sabermetrics is built on skepticism while stating that someone's interpretation is "completely misleading". No more than a scientist, whose entire field is built on skepticism, fiercely defending a position and attacking another. No matter how fiery the rhetoric, we all know that if the evidence requires revision, we will have to change our view. As humans beings, that may be difficult, but it remains the ideal.
As I began, your criticisms attack a fun house mirror image. It finds some cliched distortion of sabermetric thinking as purely number based with no understanding of actual situations or of balls in play while the exact opposite is true. Sometimes the rhetoric gets shrill, a remnant I think of earlier days when sabermetrics was trying to establish itself against the neanderthal (see, now I am doing it) attacks of threatened columnists, but much of that rhetoric has been toned down and all thoughtful fans and baseball insiders share each others insights.
by bobr on
May 8, 2008 10:37 AM EDT
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True or false?
1) Metrics like OPS+, RC, OBP have nothing to do with actual ball in play data.
2) People here have claimed that CC is a below average player based solely on OPS+ in fact ignoring the stated claim (not by me) that he has been unlucky on his BIP results.
3) Sabremetricians who state #2 unequivically believe that they use all information but ultimately discount non numerical evidence because they haven’t a clue how to merge them into their models.
by ttnorm on
May 8, 2008 5:26 PM EDT
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1) False, OBP is based on the obvious out/safe result of the play.
2) No, he’s below average based on BA/OBP/ and his SLG, his LD%/xBABIP suggests he should have a higher BA, but that doesn’t change the fact that he’s been overly hacky (REAL PITCH DATA!) and won’t walk.
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on
May 8, 2008 5:47 PM EDT
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OBP is based on the obvious out/safe result of the play
Our understanding of the physics of ball in play data are too far apart for an intelligent conversation. Have a nice day.
by ttnorm on
May 9, 2008 12:22 AM EDT
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I, too, was molested by a sabr strawman wielding a calculator
Longlorious.
by RATW on
May 8, 2008 12:07 PM EDT
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Yes, I am definitely the elitist douchebag who hates scouting. I go around kicking scouts in the groin, that’s how much I hate them and I ALWAYS have said numbers solve all.
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on
May 8, 2008 3:49 PM EDT
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Why enter into a serious dialogue
...when gross hyperbole is available?
Maybe it is because you can’t justify using semi random results (OPS+, RC, Win Shares, etc.) over actual study of the efficiency of the moving parts.
by ttnorm on
May 8, 2008 5:30 PM EDT
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Because gross hyperbole is funner
When you say studying the efficiency of the moving parts you mean stuff like this “Line drive outs are bad in your book while slow rolling seeing eye hits are good”
Here’s the problem: you’re wrong about the batted ball information. We DO use batted ball data to analyze players, and we DO use batted ball information in judging fielders. Line drives are generally good - either for outs or hits - because it shows the player is making solid contact with the ball.
As for the evening out, of course there are outliers - with sample sizes so large that’s obvious - but regression to the mean works in most cases, is it exact? Hell no, but we know a few things with each player, namely that their talent level is on base with most players.
Now pinpointing an exact number and expecting 100% accuracy isn’t going to happen, but we CAN give you ranges, and that’s what I, at least, attempt to do.
You seem to suggest we’re black/white when it comes to scouting/stats and that’s not the case, but if you expect me to act like a scout
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on
May 8, 2008 5:43 PM EDT
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I saw a stat this morning...
It said that Carl Crawford (in terms of RBIs & Runs) is 2nd only to Josh Hamilton in terms of being involved in a team’s scoring. CC drives me crazy sometimes with his over-aggressiveness at the plate, but I’ll take those numbers.
Jamie DeLuca
by JDeLuca on May 7, 2008 9:15 AM EDT 0 recs
LF Carl Crawford has been involved in 28.92 percent of the Rays runs, scoring or driving in 43 of their first 149. Only Texas' Josh Hamilton, an ex-Ray, has a higher percentage in the AL.
by davidsmarch on
May 7, 2008 10:27 AM EDT
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Put Pena, Upton, and Hinske behind Aki and he'd be in the same situation
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on
May 7, 2008 12:58 PM EDT
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Only Upton is close to him and speed, so that is not entirely true
My New Blog tracking my progress as a baseball player. Check this out if you wish, all advice, tips, and comments are appreciated.
by Cory Alexander on
May 7, 2008 4:53 PM EDT
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in*, not and
My New Blog tracking my progress as a baseball player. Check this out if you wish, all advice, tips, and comments are appreciated.
by Cory Alexander on
May 7, 2008 4:54 PM EDT
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Aki is only 15 runs back
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on
May 7, 2008 4:58 PM EDT
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