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Poll Numbers Skew Against Rays Stadium Proposal

The numbers are in, and they aren't good for the Rays' proposal to build a new stadium on the St. Petersburg waterfront. The results of a St. Petersburg Times poll released today found that 68% of city residents currently oppose the team's plan to open up the Tropicana Field site for development and move several blocks down the street to the site of Al Lang Stadium for a new ballpark. Of the 68% percent opposed, 57% "strongly oppose" the team's plan, while the remaining 11% are only "somewhat opposed". Just 19% favor the plan, either strongly or somewhat.

The silver lining for the Rays is that residents appear eager to vote on the matter, and they wish for the city council to schedule a November referendum on the issue. Of those surveyed, 60% want a vote scheduled and just 37% want the process to terminate immediately. The council would need to vote three times in order to place the matter on final passage, with the first of those votes scheduled for next Thursday. If the council collectively votes 'no' in any of the three votes, the proposal will not see the ballot in November.

As referenced earlier this week, 82% of residents contacted consider parking a "huge problem" associated with the plan. The next biggest problem appears to be public financing; 56% of residents say that continuing debt service payments on Tropicana Field to pay for the new plan is among their "biggest concerns", and 59% oppose continuing those payments.

So what does this all mean? Well, as an unabashed supporter of the proposal, I offer my takes following the jump.

Star-divide

  • The Rays tried to spin these results in their favor, but there is no way that the plan's architects at One Tropicana Drive are not fretting over what they see. There is simply no way to look at 68% opposition and be optimistic. The opposition totals are very similar to the final ones for the last major waterfront initiative to go to the ballot, a 2003 vote that saw 77% of St. Petersburg voters firmly reject any proposed changes to Albert Whitted Airport.
  • That isn't to say that there aren't silver linings here. Three-fifths of those surveyed said firmly that they wanted to see the proposal put on the November ballot. This is the matter most up for interpretation here. What does that, in concert with the support for the proposal itself, say about the will of St. Pete voters? City Council member Herb Polson had this to say:
What your poll is telling me is, 'Give us the chance to vote so we can say no because we don't want it on the Al Lang site.
  • Perhaps. Another possibility is, as the Rays point out, that a lot of issues are currently unsettled and that voters want to see this matter unfold in its entirety before killing the matter prematurely. Among the issues that need to be settled before a November vote would occur include an agreement to redevelop Tropicana Field, a lease for the Rays to play in the new stadium, a more specific parking plan, and the final financing plan. These matters are, in large part, dependent upon one another, so things could starting moving on the fast track once the city selects either Hines or Archstone-Madison as their preferred redeveloper.
  • If the Rays need to take one element out of these poll numbers and work on it, that element is clearly the matter of parking. The team can take their chances with the 56-59% who have financing problems. Quite frankly, I'm surprised that the 56-59% number isn't higher. Financing issues tend to evoke more rigid political beliefs: some people are just dead set against any kind of public financing for stadiums, and you likely can't compromise with them. You can only really neutralize so much of it, and 56-59% is a workable number. But if 82% of the electorate has issues with parking, you clearly need to work on that. That number, in relation to the overall plan, yields the most potential for the Rays to find additional supporters. Logistical problems can be addressed and, hopefully, rectified. Philosophical ones cannot. In that regard, the Rays should be optimistic. But to act upon the flexibility this chief complaint inherently presents, they need to address the problem completely and they need to do an effective job at publicizing the solution.
  • On the other hand, there is just a certain element of the voting population that you just aren't going to have much luck with:

"Downtown St. Petersburg is already congested. I don't go there," said city resident Kate Petroczy, 57. "There's not enough safe parking. And I emphasize safe."

  • I would suggest to this individual that since you don't go downtown, you clearly cannot have a reasonable perspective on how this stadium plan would impact the area. You can argue with the quantity of parking and whether there is enough to support the stadium, but downtown isn't congested now, you're wrong, and I would like to know what significant number of "unsafe" parking there is in the downtown area. If it is a matter of safety, I'm sure that can be addressed with additional police traffic on gameday. As it is, I don't know what you're talking about. What high-crime areas are there in the vicinity of Al Lang Stadium? I would argue that Tropicana Field relies far more on "unsafe" parking currently than would the new ballpark, and even that is overblown.
  • An interesting wild card in this entire process is African-American support, as this passage notes:

Kalt also suggested that the random telephone survey may not be completely accurate. Only 6 percent of poll respondents were African-American residents. Citywide, African-American residents make up 19.6 percent of all registered voters.

The Rays' have been courting African-American voters based on the potential opportunities created by the redevelopment of Tropicana Field.

On Friday, the local branches of the NAACP and Urban League, along with two local African-American pastors held a press conference at City Hall supporting a referendum.

  • While the poll may contain its issues with respect to African-American representation, the more important factor to consider is that community's turnout in the November election. With Sen. Barack Obama all but assured of being the Democratic nominee for President, the African-American community could turn out in record numbers across the community to support his historic candidacy. Obviously that would impact things quite a great deal in St. Petersburg, which is a very diverse city. The Rays have worked exceptionally hard to woo African-American support for their stadium proposal, hosting town meetings in cooperation with the NAACP and signing what amounts to a memorandum of understanding with targeted groups in which they state their desire to promote minority business ownership and advancement in all fields, but specifically with regards to the new Tropicana Field development. This, in my opinion, could be key to the whole plan. St. Petersburg's African-American community was more disadvantaged than anyone else by the construction of Tropicana Field in the late 1980s, as several predominantly black housing projects were demolished to make room for stadium parking lots in the Gas Plant neighborhood. If the Rays can make amends for embittering moves that they are associated with 20 years later, that could go a long way towards getting the African-American community to vote as a bloc in favor of the proposal. As mentioned above, they have already garnered the support of several local African-American advocacy organizations. If they can get the strong support of what should be a huge African-American turnout in November, they could be in good shape.
  • Another wild card in the whole matter is, of course, the success of the team. Like it or not, the merits of the proposal will be cast aside by many in favor of an evaluation based on wins and losses. It is far easier to develop good sentiments about a plan being proposed by a winning ballclub than it is to do the same for a plan being proposed by perennial losers. It is further difficult to develop support if you're a team full of players with character issues. The Rays have already done their best to discard players that would present image problems, all that remains to address is the winning aspect of things. That could ultimately determine the fate of a plan with longer-term implications.
  • What say our fearless city leaders on the matter?

Mayor Rick Baker:

My guess is people typically lean toward having the right to vote.

  • Groundbreaking stuff. Seriously though, Mayor Baker has ridden a fine line in his statements regarding this proposal. He is taking the politically safe route; that is, no route at all. His support could potentially boost the proposal to victory, but at the same time his opposition could be its death knell. A lot of local politicians aren't taking sides because this is an election year, but Baker's term expires in 2009 and he won't seek re-election. This gives him a little bit of immunity, yet he is still taking a deliberate and politically-smart approach to this, for now. I suspect that Baker will remain on the sidelines until all of the details on the proposal are out, vetted, and finalized. At that point, my best inclination would be to say that he will favor it given his reputation as a development-friendly mayor. In any case, I don't think he will come out against it, but he could maintain his ambiguity should the proposal look like it is headed for failure in September or October.

City Councilman Jeff Danner:

"You hear a lot of people who say it should go to referendum and let the people decide," Danner said. "I think that comes from the fact that people didn't get to decide last time. I think there's a lot of people who want a referendum so they can vote no."

  • I think that there is probably some truth to this. A lot of people were embittered by the experience that resulted in Tropicana Field. No public referendum was ever scheduled at any point of that process on the issuance of bonds or a tourist tax to cover the-then Florida Suncoast Dome's cost. The anger that a lot of city residents felt towards the process was compounded by the struggle to attract a major league team, and the additional costs to upgrade the stadium in a 1996-98 renovation. A lot of people are not evaluating the proposal on its merits and are instead using this as an opportunity to rebuke the decisions that the city fathers made 20 years ago. I look at it this way: things are the way they are. Tropicana Field is not going to de-construct itself and you're not going to be able to drive past the Gas Plant and Laurel Park tomorrow morning. These things aren't coming back, and neither is the money used to build the dome. The Soreno Hotel isn't coming back, neither are the Cardinals, and the time and money wasted on the failed Bay Plaza developments won't return. All you can do is look at the city as it is going forward, and that means accepting the good with the bad.
  • The good is, we have a Major League Baseball team playing in Tampa Bay. Specifically, we have a Major League Baseball team that plays its home games in St. Petersburg. We finally won something and introduced parity to the Bay Area sports scene. Tropicana Field is, for better or worse, St. Petersburg's Field of Dreams and the Rays give St. Petersburg prestige. Even those apathetic to baseball must grant that. The city might not have been fully able to take advantage of this due to the team's futility over the last ten years, but even then we were able to stake claim to the title "Major League Town". Now that the Rays are winning, St. Pete could host a MLB playoff game. This city has come a long way from the days of Green Benches and Early Bird Specials. Most people would agree that the Rays are a big reason for that, just generally and ignoring the troubles with the Trop and everything else.
  • Based off of that, we should be clear. Tropicana Field is not a facility that will sustain Major League Baseball in St. Petersburg indefinitely. It will need to be replaced at some point, most likely in the next 5-10 years. A lot of the debt payments on the stadium will expire in the next decade, and at that point it will no longer be cost-prohibitive for the team to break its lease. Simply put, I think it is a good bet that no matter how this plan turns out, the Rays will not be playing in Tropicana Field at the start of the 2020 season. The lease extends through 2027. Assume that they will remain in the Trop for the entirety of the lease at your peril. It simply isn't up to Major League standards anymore. This new stadium proposal is merely the first of what will surely be many should the current one be rejected. Whether the future proposals involve relocating the team to Gateway, Downtown, or Tampa, who knows. It is unlikely that relocation out of the Tampa Bay market is in the cards. But know in evaluating the Rays' proposal that they are not long for Tropicana Field. That isn't supposed to be a threat, it is just a reality. Some are okay with the possibility of the Rays vacating the city, but I believe that the team offers St. Petersburg something that can't be similarly-filled should they depart.
  • Now, I view the Rays' plan for a waterfront stadium to be a reasonable proposal that allows St. Petersburg to maintain the prestige of having a major league team, while more efficiently taking advantage of two parcels of land. It allows 85 acres of land that currently hosts a giant wart and asphalt to go on the market as land for re-development. Being on the cusp of a bustling downtown, this is exceedingly valuable property that, developed properly, can improve the quality of life in St. Pete. The current land usage is not in keeping with sustainable living and efficiency. It is too large a property in too valuable an area to be used so infrequently. The stadium and its surrounding property is also an environmental drain. Building medium-density residental and commercial buildings (including affordable housing) will allow for the continued growth and progress of St. Petersburg. The size of the land and its location make this a unique re-development opportunity.
  • What the Rays are proposing is that part of the benefits derived from this re-development be used to pay for a new stadium for their use. The financing equation hinges, in large part, upon the usage of tax revenue garnered from the site re-development. The team also proposes extending the taxes used to fund Tropicana Field for several decades in order to fund this new stadium. The developer buying the land from the city will presumably pay for the remainder of the existing debt on Tropicana Field. The only sticking points on this front are who will pay for the mitigation of environmental problems on the Tropicana site that linger from the site's Gas Plant days, as well as who will pay for the demolition of the existing dome. On the whole, these are only small elements of the plan. They are not anything that should de-rail the plan as a whole.
  • To be clear, city voters are not casting a ballot on any of this. They technically have no voice in how the tax revenue is allocated, or how the Tropicana Field site is to be developed. The only thing city residents are voting on is whether to approve a long-term lease for a new stadium on the downtown site of Al Lang Stadium. Of course, this vote is entirely predicated on every other factor mentioned above. It is a catch-all vote for everything to do with the project, logistically and financially. But essentially, this lease to use the Al Lang site would be a paid upgrade in return for vacating the Tropicana Field site early and allowing development to take place. But it isn't merely a matter of reimbursement to the Rays, the City of St. Petersburg gains here as well. The current Al Lang Stadium is dormant for 11 months of the year, and it will be for all 12 when the Rays vacate it next year in favor of a new site in Port Charlotte. The alternative to the Rays' plan most often discussed is another waterfront park that would mark a continuation of St. Pete's already-lengthy system. We already have many parks downtown, a fact that we should be grateful for. The setup in St. Pete is very unique and it is part of the city's identity. The Rays have even respected this in their plan: they are including a new park on the site of the current Al Lang parking lot to replace asphalt. But would turning the entire site into a park really benefit the city as much as a new stadium would? That is the crux of the matter.
  • I believe it does, quite obviously. The design for the Rays' new stadium is dynamic, unique, and reflective of the personality of the area. Look out upon the largest public marina in the Southeastern United States, and you'll see a plethora of sails that the cabling system on the new stadium emulates. It is designed to keep fans dry and cool enough, while still allowing them to be witness to the outdoor beauties of the Sunshine City. Not just the clear summer skies, and not just the progressive downtown, but also in the vast expanse of Tampa Bay in close proximity. Simply put, the stadium showcases the best that St. Petersburg and Tampa Bay have to offer. Think of it this way: in the instance that Tropicana Field hosts a signficant, nationally-televised game, fans across the country will see a drab, domed stadium surrounded by black asphalt. That's not evocative of Florida. Imagine the same game occurring in a brand new, waterfront stadium in the midst of a bustling downtown. The stunning architecture of the new stadium would add a defining monument to downtown, and it would be something that we can be legitimately proud to showcase. When people see the Rays at home, they see St. Petersburg. They see Tampa Bay. And from the new stadium, there could be no bad view of that.
  • Now obviously comfort concerns come into play here. The Sunshine City is beautiful, but it is also very much known for the humidity. Anyone who has sat outside for an extended period of time in a Florida summer knows how uncomfortable things are, and the Rays will need to take steps to ensure that the weather beast is contained. They have said that between the roof and the strategic placement of air conditioning, they can make the game experience comfortable. Really, they have no reason to lie. It doesn't make sense for them to push for a stadium in which their fans would be uncomfortable. This stadium represents a long-term investment on their end, and so it would not make business sense for them to build a logistically-flawed stadium that would discourage fans from going to the ballpark. That is why, even though there are outstanding legitimate concerns about parking and some other matters, I am confident enough that they will resolve themselves that I support the whole package.
Poll
Do you believe that the Rays' proposal for a waterfront stadium will pass a prospective November vote?
Yes
109 votes
No
109 votes

218 votes | Poll has closed

1 recs  |  Comment 47 comments

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i don't see any silver lining,

the people that want to vote only want to vote so they can vote against it. that’s not in any way promising, it’s depressing. the amount of disinformation and just plain lies, the vitriolic agendas by the anti-stadium crowd seems to really have taken afoot amongst the common newspaper reader in pinellas, and that is something that the team should be very worried about. they are obviously not doing enough to persuade people that this is best for the city, not just best for the team. sad indeed, when this doesn’t pass, the team won’t be long for st. pete…

by davidsmarch on Jun 1, 2008 11:28 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

As much as I want it too...

I don’t think it will pass. I hope I’m wrong.

by tbmd on Jun 1, 2008 11:40 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Parking vs. Temperature

Every fan that I speak to is more concerned about the weather, specifically the heat in an outdoor stadium here. I didn’t poll 600 voting residents of St. Pete, but I probably have discussed this with 100 or so baseball fans in and around downtown St. Pete and the biggest concern I’m hearing is the heat. While the Trop isn’t up to Major League standards, 72 degrees works nicely in the summer.

Parking problems can be fixed, temperature problems aren’t as easy. If the organization can convince the fan base that thier technology will really reduce the temperature, I think there might be more support.

When life hands you lemons.........just add vodka.

by Guinness on Jun 1, 2008 11:50 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Amongst the season ticket holders

Particularly the older ones, I’d say heat is more of a concern. Most of us assume that as for the parking, we will be first in line to be taken care of (which would be completely fair imho)

by GomesSweetGomes on Jun 1, 2008 7:02 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think one problem is that people against the plan

never really get to learn about the stadium. They say that the heat is to much, parking is to bad, and all of these other problems without learning about the stadium itself. Do they choose to not believe that the sail will make the temperature 20 degrees cooler under it or do they just not know? I hate how people do not learn all the facts before taking a side. Do people even realize that if the proposal doesn’t go through there is a chance the team could leave the area entirely. If that was to happen the amount of money St. Pete has will drop drastically. No offense St. Pete, but no one really wants to go there for anything else.

by KazforPresident on Jun 1, 2008 12:03 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

20 degrees- please explain

My point was that they need to explain how this design will reduce the temperature by 20 degrees because people are extremely skeptical of this. As an aside, I’m 100% in favor of the stadium plan.

When life hands you lemons.........just add vodka.

by Guinness on Jun 1, 2008 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

the team won’t be long for st. pete…

Good

If these St Pete residents want to spread lies and misinformation and be assholes so that they wont have to deal with “change” for the good in their area than screw St Pete. If those residents who get persuaded by the lie spreaders, vote no simply because they dont know the truth than screw them too.

If the truth was being told, and residents still didnt want this stadium there I would have no problem with that. Its real d-bags who are running this POWW thing.

Im assuming Sternberg wouldnt move the team out of this area, but with the way things are being handled by the oppositiono to this plan I honestly would not care if Sternberg gave them the finger and left

by blazinrayz on Jun 1, 2008 12:09 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

What are the odds they move around the Tampa Bay area?

There has to be a more open, on the water, less congested, more accessible location in Tampa Bay. Aside from the fact that there are ton of d-bag Yankee fans in Tampa, there can’t be many people coming over from Hillsborough, right?
I’ve been thinking for a while now that the best location might be somewhere on the bay between the Courtney Campbell and Howard Franklin on the Hillsborough side.

"that suzuki guy should go back to making cars" - My girlfriend after C.J.'s close in game 2

by tdi1985 on Jun 1, 2008 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

They could negotiate with the county over plans to develop the old Toytown dump

Seriously, if this is how the citizens of St. Pete are going to treat this ownership after all they have done for this franchise, then they need to get the hell out of St. Petersburg because the city doesn’t deserve this team.

by JMB on Jun 1, 2008 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Have Faith!!!

As a St Pete resident and huge supporter of the stadium, I can tell you that the first battle is getting it on the ballot. Once it is on the ballot, I am confident once all the facts are out that support will grow exponentially. The vote, if allowed, is almost 6 months away!!!! Plenty of time to change hearts and minds. While red signs still far outnumber the blue ones, the blue signs are starting to become noticeable in many areas.

Like I’ve said from the beginning, this is mainly an AGE issue. If you are a long-time St Pete resident of social security range age, then you are most likely against it. If you are younger (especially 40 and below) and want St Pete to progress and stop playing second fiddle to Tampa, then you are for it. It’s time for a stadium/landmark that we can be proud of!

Finally, the congestion/bridge argument is crap…anyone who has commuted over the Howie Frankland knows that the traffic at PM rush hour is MUCH worse going from Pinellas to Hillsborough. The traffic the other way is actually quite light. Can you imagine if there was a 7pm game on the Tampa side?? It would take 4 hours to cross that bridge!!!!

Jamie DeLuca

by JDeLuca on Jun 1, 2008 12:10 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Agreed. All this says is the Rays have some further persuading to do. Typically in these votes, those who are in favor are unlikely to change their mind, while those not completely opposed may yet see the positives and come around between now and November. The 57% strongly opposed is the most compelling number from all this, but an analysis of the sample (as mentioned, African-American voter representation for example) and inherent margin of error could make a significant difference in the number and put it below a majority.

Longlorious.

by RATW on Jun 1, 2008 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Parking problems can be fixed, temperature problems aren’t as easy

actually Im convinced that the weather is far easier to control than the parking. I dont understand why anyone would have a problem with this “outdoor” stadium when we already know the weather inside teh stadium will be controlled

by blazinrayz on Jun 1, 2008 12:17 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

shade

Ever sat under a tree in the evening with the seabreeze blowing? It’s very comfortable.

by zeng8r on Jun 1, 2008 4:53 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ever sit in an enclosed stadium (no breeze) in Arlington in the summer? It can be brutal, but the Rangers still draw a lot of fans.

I know it’s muggy and hot in St. Pete in the summer, but it’s pretty wild people would actually vote against the stadium just because it’s outdoors. The parking thing is another matter.

Longlorious.

by RATW on Jun 1, 2008 5:18 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

If you are a long-time St Pete resident of social security range age, then you are most likely against it.

Can anyone explain to me a legitimate reason why this would be, other than they are crotchety old folks

by blazinrayz on Jun 1, 2008 12:19 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Because these people are more likely to be transplants

It’s the whole “I want to be the last one to move here from Ohio” syndrome. People discover St. Pete and they move there, but they don’t want anyone else to follow them because they don’t want the city to grow. They are generally opposed to growth and development.

by Patrick L. Kennedy on Jun 1, 2008 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Historically, the older age demographic has been opposed to any progress in St Pete.

-Want to build beautiful new waterfront condos on the Vinoy property? AGAINST IT
-Want to plow down that useless Alfred Whitted Airport and expand the USF St Pete campus? AGAINST IT
-Want nice new high rise condos on the waterfront in St Pete (Ovation, Signature, etc)? AGAINST IT

Except for the airport deal that never happened those projects have turned out to be great additions to the area.

You said it perfectly – They are generally against any progress and want St Pete to remian a sleepy retirement ‘town’.

Jamie DeLuca

by JDeLuca on Jun 1, 2008 5:44 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Well, to be fair

I opposed the Albert Whitted plan because I wanted to see the airport kept. I think it is an asset to the city, and I love the air festival they do there every year. What they needed to do was to take greater advantage of the property and integrate it into the rest of downtown, and I think they’re doing an awesome job of that with the new terminal and the park right near the control tower. All the airport needed was some enhancement. I cannot wait for Arigato’s to open in the new terminal. That will be awesome.

But yes, everything else you said was dead-on. Pretty much everything over the last decade that has enhanced downtown has been opposed by the anti-growth people. There is some merit to wanting to preserve historic buildings. That the Soreno was torn down is a travesty, as was the demolition of the Florida Theater several decades ago. But empty plots of land downtown need development, it just makes sense. There is no room to go in St. Pete or Pinellas County but up, so we need to redevelop plots of land that are currently not being used at their highest and best use.

by Patrick L. Kennedy on Jun 1, 2008 6:09 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The air festival can be done at PIE

Not like anybody but the Rays uses that one anyway.

Do not think that what is hard for you to master is humanly impossible; but if a thing is humanly possible, consider it to be within your reach.

by Orlando Rays on Jun 1, 2008 7:52 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

That has commercial air traffic though

Also, it’s the base for the Coast Guard. Logistically, it is far harder to host something there.

by Patrick L. Kennedy on Jun 1, 2008 10:02 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

But don't forget...

...these are the people who go out to the polls and vote in greater numbers than other demographics.

Baseball, it is said, is only a game. True. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole in Arizona.
~George F. Will, Men at Work: The Craft of Baseball, 1990

by webdoyenne on Jun 1, 2008 6:24 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I am trying my hardest...

...to mobilize my friends and co-workers who live in St Pete. I stacked my trunk with blue signs and so far I have about 15 people who I know will be voting for the stadium(if we get to vote). FYI – We are all under 35 years of age.

Jamie DeLuca

by JDeLuca on Jun 1, 2008 6:54 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

If we make the playoffs

Then there won’t be much opposition outside the PoWW Board.

If we win the World Series, then the PoWW Board would fold.

Do not think that what is hard for you to master is humanly impossible; but if a thing is humanly possible, consider it to be within your reach.

by Orlando Rays on Jun 1, 2008 7:55 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Or

They would use it as proof that the Rays don’t need a new stadium to be competitive

by GomesSweetGomes on Jun 1, 2008 10:20 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Terrible stadium location

First post, long time lurker.
I think they need to move the team to Tampa. That would solve the attendance problem immediately. Anecdotally, I know tons of people in Polk County and other areas of central Florida that won’t or can’t afford to drive all the way to St. Pete to watch games. Heck, as a broke college student, I can’t afford to drive from New Tampa out to St. Pete too often. It sucks when it costs as much money to drive to the game as it does to buy two tickets or one ticket and a beer.
By moving the team to Tampa, or even better, to the I-4 and I-75 intersection, they would open up the radius of area that the stadium would serve. I hate to say it, but I am against the stadium. Also, it’s still 90 degrees out at 7:00 in the summer!

by polkcountydude on Jun 1, 2008 8:08 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I disagree

If you move the stadium out to the I-4/I-75 junction, you lose the Pinellas base. That drive is simply way too far for Pinellas residents, when you mix in the awful traffic from the Airport into Tampa and Ybor City on I-4. That drive just isn’t feasible for Pinellas residents to make, and you need strong support from Pinellas County to make things work. It is the most densely-populated county in the state, and whatever gains you would make in traffic from Polk County and the Orlando area would be minimal compared to what you’d lose from Pinellas.

Moving the team to Tampa wouldn’t solve the attendance issue immediately. That’s just a falsehood. The Lightning and Bucs both drew poorly in Hillsborough County when those teams had awful on-field performance. That’s what it comes down to. Not stadium location, or even stadium quality. The reason for the stadium upgrade would be for the Rays to better take advantage of higher attendance, not to generate higher attendance. Aside from the bump that always occurs with a new stadium, banking on a new park to be an attractor in itself is not a sustainable business plan long-term. You need to have a competitive team to match that stadium. Playing those games in Tropicana Field or the Rays New Ballpark wouldn’t make any difference in terms of the raw attendance numbers, but with the new stadium the team can wring more money from that same number. That’s what it comes down to. Better exploiting the ballpark experience for business success. That is what’s driving the new facility.

The greater problem with the Bay Area is that there is no perfect place to build a stadium. You’re damned anywhere you go, because it will always be inconvenient to someone. This area is just a sprawl right now, and there’s no convenient method of transportation here. Everything is predicated on the automobile, and that isn’t sustainable. We need a form of mass transit. I guarantee you that if rail transit gets momentum, stadium transportation issues become far less stressful for everyone, no matter where you are.

by Patrick L. Kennedy on Jun 1, 2008 10:14 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

How about...

Great points. I think the best plan is to build a new stadium on a barge and float it around Tampa Bay for different games. The St. Pete waterfront for one series, pull it up along Bayshore in Tampa for the next, maybe even take it down to Manatee County a time or two.

win-win-win, imo.

by zeng8r on Jun 1, 2008 10:27 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Watch it get blown out to sea with the first hurricane

Nice icea.

Do not think that what is hard for you to master is humanly impossible; but if a thing is humanly possible, consider it to be within your reach.

by Orlando Rays on Jun 2, 2008 7:56 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

well stated Patrick

While having the stadium in downtown St Pete might be a far drive in terms of miles for many people, it is by far the best option in terms of least amount of traffic/congestion.

Jamie DeLuca

by JDeLuca on Jun 1, 2008 10:42 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

What a surprise

My pro-stadium signs (and neighbors) were stolen AGAIN last night. This is now the 4th time I will have to replace them. What a bunch of turds.

Jamie DeLuca

by JDeLuca on Jun 2, 2008 9:03 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Lightning and Bucs both drew poorly in Hillsborough County when those teams had awful on-field performance.

true, but the Rays arent a bad team. So what does that have to do with anything?

st pete is an island with no pre/post game activities worth sticking around for. Tampa is much more accessible in every direction, and it has life. the Bucs and Lightning have had no problem drawing fans since they got good, so how would the Rays strigigle to draw fans in Tampa now that they are good?

I dont blame the guy for not going to games. If you are living in North Tampa, or anywhere east of Tamp/St Pete you likely arent making the drive very often. Not to mention, many people (myself not included) think The Trop feels like baseball on the moon. And I can atleast see where they are coming from. It doesnt have much of a baseball feel, and Sterberg has voiced his concern with this also.

“They would use it as proof that the Rays don’t need a new stadium to be competitive”

I dont think the argument is that we need a new stadium to be competitive. I think Sternberg feels like The Trop is a terrible environment for baseball, and he wants a real baseball facility for his soon to be powerhouse team. If we make the playoffs or series, than that will make him even more antsy for a stadium

by blazinrayz on Jun 2, 2008 9:53 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

true, but the Rays arent a bad team. So what does that have to do with anything?

Are you serious? They aren’t a bad team now, they have been a bad team for the last ten years.

st pete is an island with no pre/post game activities worth sticking around for. Tampa is much more accessible in every direction, and it has life. the Bucs and Lightning have had no problem drawing fans since they got good, so how would the Rays strigigle to draw fans in Tampa now that they are good?

Are you serious? I don’t think you’ve ever actually been to St. Petersburg, because you couldn’t be more wrong. St. Pete is an island with no pre/post-game activities worth sticking around for? I’m sorry, but that’s just incorrect. Downtown St. Pete is far more active than is Downtown Tampa, which is just a 9-5 destination. Tampa is not more accessible in every direction, you’re wrong there too. Moving the stadium to Tampa means the people from Pinellas drive farther, as well as those from Sarasota, Manatee, and the other Southwest Florida counties. If you believe that the Rays would not have had attendance issues in Tampa with the product they have put on the field for the last ten years, then you are just patently false. If you believe that the Rays would not currently have attendance issues in Tampa, you are also wrong. It takes more than a month to re-invigorate an area’s interest in baseball.

I dont blame the guy for not going to games. If you are living in North Tampa, or anywhere east of Tamp/St Pete you likely arent making the drive very often. Not to mention, many people (myself not included) think The Trop feels like baseball on the moon. And I can atleast see where they are coming from. It doesnt have much of a baseball feel, and Sterberg has voiced his concern with this also.

So replace the Trop with a new waterfront stadium that will be among the most breathtaking in any professional sport in any locale in the world. That’s how you make the ambiance better. Coincidentally, that is what the Rays are trying to do. We’ve been over this before, there is no “convenient” location in the Tampa Bay area. That’s not how this area works. It’s a sprawl.

by Patrick L. Kennedy on Jun 2, 2008 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

it is by far the best option in terms of least amount of traffic/congestion.

and it is the worst option for anyone not living in St Pete

There are a lot of people living in Plant City, Lakeland, Riverview, Haines City, Winter Haven, Orlando, Lutz, LOL, Wesley Chapel and Zephyrhills and getting to St POpete from any of these areas is a real hassle. Even in Bradenton/Sarasota, you are making the same drive if the stadium were moved to I4/I75 that you would going to St Pete.

So who are we worried about? fans in St Pete who are shooting down new stadium plans and who currently dont go to games anyways? Guess what? As difficult as you may think it is to get from st pete to I4/I75, it is equally as difficult to get from Nnorth Tampa to St Pete. Eitehr way you are alienating someone. Why not pick the area that everyone else can get to much easier along with having many more options before and after the game for things to do?

by blazinrayz on Jun 2, 2008 10:02 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

it is by far the best option in terms of least amount of traffic/congestion.

and it is the worst option for anyone not living in St Pete

False. It is a more convenient location for the entirety of the most densely populated county in the state, as well as Pasco, Hernando, Citrus, Sarasota, Manatee, Charlotte, Lee, and Collier counties. Tampa would be more convenient for in-land traffic, obviously. However the Bay Area needs a little parity among its sports teams. Not every franchise should be located in Tampa when Pinellas is just as integral to the Bay Area. The issue of fairness also comes into play. Hillsborough County residents and those within the City of Tampa shouldn’t have to foot the bill for every professional sports stadium.

There are a lot of people living in Plant City, Lakeland, Riverview, Haines City, Winter Haven, Orlando, Lutz, LOL, Wesley Chapel and Zephyrhills and getting to St POpete from any of these areas is a real hassle. Even in Bradenton/Sarasota, you are making the same drive if the stadium were moved to I4/I75 that you would going to St Pete.

This is incorrect. It is faster for those living in Bradenton/Sarasota to drive over the Skyway than it is for them to drive into the I-4/I-75 junction, or anywhere in Tampa.

So who are we worried about? fans in St Pete who are shooting down new stadium plans and who currently dont go to games anyways?

First of all, you assume that there is this groundswell of support in Hillsborough County for a $450 million stadium, and there’s not. Residents there are already footing the bill for two new professional sports facilities, and they have the same budgetary issues that Pinellas municipalities have. Obviously I feel as though the stadium mandate should pass, but this thing isn’t a slam-dunk in Hillsborough County.

Guess what? As difficult as you may think it is to get from st pete to I4/I75, it is equally as difficult to get from Nnorth Tampa to St Pete. Eitehr way you are alienating someone. Why not pick the area that everyone else can get to much easier along with having many more options before and after the game for things to do?

What are these “many more options” of which you speak? What are you talking about? There is nothing at the I-4/I-75 junction but an Amphitheater and the Hard Rock casino. St. Pete has a bustling and active downtown with lots of restaurants. You’re being disingenuous when you say that “everyone else” can get to the stadium easier. That’s not true, and it never has been. It’s more than Pinellas that would be inconvenienced.

by Patrick L. Kennedy on Jun 2, 2008 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Don't forget...

There could also be a nice, big confederate flag at that location.

Baseball, it is said, is only a game. True. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole in Arizona.
~George F. Will, Men at Work: The Craft of Baseball, 1990

by webdoyenne on Jun 2, 2008 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Indeed...already has.

Picture alone worthwhile:

Massive Confederate flag flies in Tampa

Baseball, it is said, is only a game. True. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole in Arizona.
~George F. Will, Men at Work: The Craft of Baseball, 1990

by webdoyenne on Jun 3, 2008 3:14 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

it is by far the best option in terms of least amount of traffic/congestion.

I base this opinion not on the fact that I live in St Pete, but the fact that I work in Tampa and dealt with the commute for over 10 years. During PM rush hour there is much lighter traffic going north to south(Veterans, I-275), and particularly east to west (any of the 3 bridges). I feel so sorry for the commuters that go from Pinellas to Hillsborough over the Howie Frankland. What a nightmare.

Jamie DeLuca

by JDeLuca on Jun 2, 2008 1:45 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Agreed

The only real choke point on I-275 going southbound once you get out of the Downtown Tampa area is right where the Interstate converges with Roosevelt. Usually traffic is slow, but it moves, up until Gandy, when the lane merger takes place. After Gandy, traffic is usually heavy but it moves at normal speeds on down to St. Pete.

by Patrick L. Kennedy on Jun 2, 2008 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Destination Spot or Blue-light Specials and Green Benches

Excellent post and follow up responses Patrick. I agree wholeheartedly with your analysis and support the waterfront stadium plans at Al Lang even though I live in Tampa. The Al Lang site is steeped in baseball tradition and the stadium would be its crowning legacy.

At Saturday’s game while standing on line for a beer some guy started voicing his complaints about how much a beer would cost at the new stadium. When I answered probably the same which is certainly less than most stadiums he started to ridicule me as one of those "brainwashed jerks" who bought into the stadium idea hook, line and sinker and how he’ll be damned if his property taxes are going to be increased for those damn carpetbaggers. When I asked exactly how his property taxes were going to increase he couldn’t answer other than to ask how painful my throat felt from swallowing the hook. Realizing I wasn’t going to be able to have an intelligent discussion I could only reply not as bad as his ass will feel from the green bench splinters that St Pete will revert to when they lose the team

One good thing, after he left several people started asking me legitimate questions about the stadium and were at least open minded and willing to seek more information.

I do fear that if this stadium is not built the team will leave St. Pete a lot sooner than people realize. From my understanding the stadium debt will be retired by 2016 and when that happens there will be nothing insurmountable holding them to the lease. I also think people are too flippant in assuming that if they do leave St Pete that they will simply relocate to Tampa. I’m not so sure that’s the case. If anything, the Orlando area is the locale that has been rattling its cage bars about attracting a team.

To the person who stated that downtown St Pete has nothing to offer obviously has not been there. The site is perfect: replete with a profound baseball history like no other in the state and nestled in a dynamic entertainment district. The surrounding environ will be much more attractive to a diverse population of baseball fans; families, college crowds and seniors as well. If I want to throw down a few beers in a rowdy celebration after the game there are the plenty of pubs and clubs to do it in. If I want to spend a leisurely day with my family in the park, at the pier and at the Dali or one of the other museums, topped off with dinner and the game its all there for me. Or if I want a great restaurant for a romantic meal with a gorgeous woman before taking in the game I can call an escort service. It’s all there for me to do, just steps outside the stadium.

If they were to build the team in Tampa the two most likely locales would be adjacent to Raymond James or the aforementioned I-4 / I-275 intersection, neither of which have any spots of interest in walking distance. Ybor (which at night attracts a very exclusive crowd) and/or Channelside are completely different destinations sites and you cannot say they would be a draw for the crowd going to the game.

I do have one question. If they were to build a stadium at the I-4 / I-275 site under the proposed gigantic confederate flag would we need to change the name and uniforms again. Instead of the Rays we’d be the Rebs and instead of baseball caps we could just don pointed white hoods.

by TampaMet on Jun 2, 2008 4:42 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Tampa doesn't really want the Rays stadium

They’ve already got Legends Field :).

Remember, this is the same city that tried to pass that idiotic referendum asking to have the Tampa “World Champions Signs” to be amended to the following:

“Super Bowl Champions”
“Stanley Cup Champions”
“Arena Bowl Champions”
“New York Yankees”

I live in Tampa, and as far as I’m concerned, this city can go blow their baseball ideals out their collective asses. I want the team in St. Pete. I want to travel to St. Pete to see the games, and I hate the Trop and want a new stadium. I’ve always hated the Trop, it looks like a prison, and I’d like to leave the previous 10 years of Devil Rays history locked up in it.

by kericr on Jun 2, 2008 5:16 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Great comment TampaMet

Even though I still work in Tampa, when my wife and I were choosing a place to buy a house 3 years ago we chose St Pete (Shore Acres) over Tampa for two main reasons: nice, growing downtown waterfront area and close proximity to St Pete Beach/Ft DeSoto. Bars and restaurants are sprouting up everywhere (Bishop Tavern is our favorite), and the waterfront area has come a long way in a few short years. The stadium would be a stellar addition.

Jamie DeLuca

by JDeLuca on Jun 2, 2008 5:34 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

when i know all there is to know

i wonder how that 75million will be distributed amongst those that are so close to foreclosure as is… that might be why the elderly oppose… when your living on decreasing social security and medicare cuts are pinching pockets… well I can imagine you might be against a 500 million dollar stadium…

by stpeteheat on Jun 2, 2008 6:13 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

The same could be said of virtually any service the city provides

Investing in a public stadium is, on a greater scale, no different than investing in the performing arts, museums, etc. It is an investment in the quality of life of your city. I dispute some of the economic impact studies both sides throw out, but the main benefit to me here is intangible. It is the prestige of having a world class stadium and a Major League Baseball team.

Also, Pinellas County residents and residents within the City of St. Petersburg are already paying the costs that the Rays want diverted into a new stadium. It is already taking place. You can’t just stop debt service payments on Tropicana Field, they are already taking place and will for another ten years. The question is whether you want those payments extended 10 years from now in return for the Rays vacating a large, prime piece of downtown land.

by Patrick L. Kennedy on Jun 2, 2008 7:13 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

BTW

Welcome to the site.

by Patrick L. Kennedy on Jun 2, 2008 7:14 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

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