To all the C.C. haters
by free hotdogs on Jun 12, 2008 9:56 AM EDT
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“Sure, he is having a down year”When you say it, it’s ok. If I say it, I’m the suck. Interesting.
by DAM on Jun 12, 2008 11:54 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Because we aren't big enough fans of Carl Crawford to say stuff and get away with it
Fan hierarchy is a joke, I own a Crawford jersey, and no matter who (minus Glover) plays for the Rays I’m cheering for them everyday. You can check the archives over the past 20 months and get back to me, but I don’t think I’ve ever said anything negative about Carl’s performance until this year, and I think most level-headed individuals would agree his performance is lacking, hell you said it. He’ll be fine, but right now he’s abysmal.
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on Jun 12, 2008 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Way to screw everything up here
He doesn’t like to hit leadoff or play center field.
Well I don’t need stats or numbers; I just listen to my gut. My gut tells me that I need to eat lunch, but it also tells me that when C.C. gets back from his suspension, he is going to be on fire at the plate.
The numbers actually suggest he’s been a tad bit unlucky, but whatever you don’t need them, which brings us to this:
will give you one stat, for that is about as ambitious as I am feeling: on Monday night when C.C. hit third for the first time this year he had 2 hits, 2 runs, 1 RBI, and 2 stolen bases.
See, I listen with my ears and read with my eyes, and they’ve told me that you don’t need numbers, meaning this point is invalid. Step your game up guy, you gotta bring stuff like “Carl is the heart of this team, he hustles, he’s gritty, he gets his uni dirty.” Bring stuff like that, come on! You don’t need stinking numbers, these facts get you nowhere in life, it’s all about heart and hustle!
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on Jun 12, 2008 12:04 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Carl is the heart of this team, he hustles, he’s gritty, he gets his uniform dirty...
he is the all around team player, he is the epitome of what the Rays stand for, he is never selfish, he plays through pain and hardly ever complains, he lays his body on the line every night, etc…
he has been unlucky, i fully expect his avg to come up to .300 for the year, and it looks like lately he’s been taking many more pitches then he did a month ago, though i have no numbers to back that up. though i disagree with him batting 3rd, with the way upton is swinging the bat, he needs to stay batting 3rd (unless he get that power stroke back), i still like Pena at 4, followed by Longo at 5th gives us an amazing L-R-L-R punch.
by davidsmarch on Jun 12, 2008 12:19 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
i forgot to mention,
great post, really.
by davidsmarch on Jun 12, 2008 12:20 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
1st. Since you do have a man crush on him, you would you tell him to nut up and play up to the ability that he has. What a waste.
2nd. My disappointment, i guess is the best word to describe it, in Carl Crawford does not just stem from his “down” year that he is having this year. Rather over the last few years i have come to the conclusion that Crawford is one of the most overrated players in the league.
Think about it, you cite his catches as being great in the outfield, but in actuality he is a terrible outfielder and makes up for his bad jumps and poor routes with his poor speed. Also he may have one of the weakest throwing arms in the league, giving him no shot to throw anyone out at the plate.
As for his hitting, Carl leaves much to be desired in his approach to plate. He, as R.J. has pointed out numerous times using various stats, has a terrible approach at the plate. He doesn’t take pitches or work the count, in many RBI situations he goes up hacking away at pitches out of the strike zone early in the count, most often hitting a weak groundball or popping out. I think R.J. and others has commented enough on his approach at the plate that it does not need any more evidence.
Continuing don’t you think someone one with the speed of Crawford, who is arguable the fastest man in the league, would lead baseball in bunt hits? But Crawford very very rarely bunts the ball. I have not a clue why he would not even attempt the bunt to draw the third base man in and give him more of a whole on the left side of the infield. For example at the last O’s series Mora was play well off the line and 5-6 feet behind the bag during every one of Crawford’s at bats knowing that he was not a threat to lay down a bunt. I have not a clue why he refuses to bunt. Maybe he thinks of himself as a power hitter, or he thinks he is to big a super star to bunt? I don’t know but his average and OBP would most certainly increase if he did add the bunt to his arsenal.
Lastly you cite Crawford’s grit and character as a team player, but let me ask you this: Does a good team player tell the manger what position he will only play, where he will only bat in the order, and ask for days off, even though our OF is thin behind him, Upton, and Gross? Also don’t you think a gritty team player would do anything to help his team win, like for example try to bunt for a basehit when he is struggling?
Protect the Trop: Keep northerners out.
by St Pete Native on Jun 12, 2008 12:22 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Wow we think alike
though I would have to disagree about his poor speed
by Sveet on Jun 12, 2008 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
typo ... great speed*
Protect the Trop: Keep northerners out.
by St Pete Native on Jun 12, 2008 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
wrong on all counts
i’ll start at the end. would you want Soriano on your team? even though he only wants to play LF, and only wants to bat lead-off? yes, you would, and yes he’s a team player, that is just where he feels comfortable. i have never hear CC say he would protest a move, i’m sure he would still bat where he was slotted, as he has in the past, he is simply stating a preference, and the stat numbers back up that he is better in the 2-hole then as a lead-off man.
secondly, why bunt when you can hit triples? sure, it’d be nice to see him fake a bunt sometimes, but i could care less whether he makes is a real part of his hitting arsenal (unless he does get moved to the lead-off spot, which is one of the only places a player should bunt as a means of getting on base and not as a means of moving runners over.) the man hits second, if someone were on in front of him, maybe ask him to sacrifice (and i’m positive he would do it), but obviously maddon feels more comfortable with him swinging away then sacrificing to move a runner over. CC’s avg. with runners on and with RISP (up until this year) have been stellar, i see no reason why he should bunt more.
yes, he swings at some bad pitches. so what? as RJ also pointed out, CC has the best contact and avg on balls swung out out of the strike zone on the team, so obviously he still gets hits swinging at balls. some guys feel comfortable hitting in certain areas, CC obviously feels comfortable (and may i point out, has been VERY successful) hitting balls out of the zone. the way he can reach down and out and slap a ball to left field is very impressive, not many players can do that as consistently as he does. sure, he could take more walks, but if he hits .300 plus every year, i’m not going to complain if his obp isn’t above .400, not every player is as adept at taking walks, and that’s by no means a knock of any kind. i’ll take a guy who hits .300 and has an obp of .350 over a guy who hits .250 with the same obp any day of the week.
and lastly, i am so fucking tired of hearing “cc is a terrible outfielder”. i can count on one hand the number of times he has taken a poor route this year, usually he is right on. he gets to more balls out of his fielding zone then anyone in the league, and has CONSISTENTLY been rated the best fielding LF by the fielding bible. yes, i know his speed helps him. but are you really going to knock a guy for a natural ability? would you rather he was slow? no, obviously not. his speed helps him, like every players ability helps them at their position, so i really don’t want to hear ever “well if he wasn’t fast….blah blah blah”. he is fast, and being fast is what makes him such a great fielder, so he can’t throw like Upton, and is only a 4 tool player, deal with it.
lastly, CC is a superstar. the guy has 20hr potential if he wanted it. he will steal 50bases, hit 300, obp 350, field like no other LF, turn doubles into triples, scares opposing pitchers when he’s on base, and just do things no other player can. he’s in no way overrated, or overvalued, he’s damn legit.
by davidsmarch on Jun 12, 2008 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Soriano was an awful CF, hence his move to LF
It wasn’t beneficial for the team to have him in center. The same cannot be said for Crawford, last year he would’ve be an enormous upgrade over Delmon/Dukes.
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on Jun 12, 2008 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
last year, maybe,
though then Upton wouldn’t have been move to CF. i think it all worked out, and talking about his position this year is a moot point.
by davidsmarch on Jun 12, 2008 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's not about his position, it's about his willingness to help the team.
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on Jun 12, 2008 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
a stated preference, is not the same thing as a demand.
i have never heard CC say “i will not bat lead-off” or “i will not play CF”. he has a preference where to hit and where to play, as i’m sure most players do. the problem is, he is so skilled he can play and hit in multiple positions, so this conversation comes up more then it would for many other players.
by davidsmarch on Jun 12, 2008 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
We'd be better off with him in CF
The slight downgrade at CF would help tremendously in RF (except when Gross plays, and then the bat is a downgrade).
by rglass44 on Jun 12, 2008 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
umm, what?
so CC plays center, and we move Upton to RF? is that what you’re saying. so who plays left? and i don’t think CC is even a better CF then Upton, so nothing you say makes any sense.
by davidsmarch on Jun 12, 2008 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Let's straighten this out...
If CC moves to CF and Upton moves to RF, we would have an awesome RF and a good CF. In LF we would then be free to put girly-arm Hinske, Gomes, Aybar?, Bonds, Cliff, etc. Pretty much anyone can play LF w/o it hurting that much.
Now that Gross is pretty much the everyday RF the defense would be a slight downgrade (maybe more depending on the LF), but the bat would likely make up for that.
by rglass44 on Jun 12, 2008 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Carl doesn't have the clout to start making demands
Don’t you want players to say “I will do whatever you need me to do to help this team win.” ?
by Sveet on Jun 12, 2008 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
didn't i just get done saying that he had NEVER made any demands,
only stated a preference? or do most of you choose not to read anything that anyone else writes, and just spew nonsense as long as it suits you?
by davidsmarch on Jun 12, 2008 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I didn't say he made demands
I just said that he doesn’t have the clout to make demands all he can do is state “preferences” which is just about as bad in my book as I said above
Don’t you want players to say "I will do whatever you need me to do to help this team win." ?
by Sveet on Jun 12, 2008 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
it's insinuated,
and it’s nowhere near as bad. ALL PLAYERS HAVE PREFERENCES ON WHERE TO PLAY, AND WHERE TO BAT. it’s called being a professional athlete…
by davidsmarch on Jun 12, 2008 4:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Being a professional athlete…
is doing what it takes to help your team win. Of course everyone has preferences. Aki never played second base before this year, but he moved to help the team. Do you think the rays really wanted Delmon Young to play center last year when BJ was out? Come on…
by SuperB on Jun 12, 2008 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
probably not, but that's regardless.
what makes you so sure that they even asked CC to play CF? he’s played CF before when people have been hurt or needed a rest, and in fact i will 100% guarantee, with no knowledge what so ever, that if they asked CC to cover CF while Upton was out, he would say yes.
by davidsmarch on Jun 12, 2008 4:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm sure you're right
They probably never even thought to ask their best athlete to play center field.
by SuperB on Jun 12, 2008 4:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If they didn't it's because
He insinuated that he didn’t want to play there
by Sveet on Jun 12, 2008 4:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I didn't say he made demands
I just said that he doesn’t have the clout to make demands all he can do is state “preferences” which is just about as bad in my book as I said above
Don’t you want players to say "I will do whatever you need me to do to help this team win." ?
by Sveet on Jun 12, 2008 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
CC has the best contact and avg on balls swung out out of the strike zone on the team, so obviously he still gets hits swinging at balls.
And yet making contact doesn’t always result in hits. Most called balls are pitches you really can’t do a lot with.
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on Jun 12, 2008 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
me, i couldn't do anything with them. Crawford, he does a lot with them...
by davidsmarch on Jun 12, 2008 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not this year.
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on Jun 12, 2008 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
again,
these people saying he’s overrated aren’t talking about this year, they are talking about the player. it’s obvious to most that some of his numbers are down, but an off statistical year does not erase a superb career, and does not an over-rated player make.
by davidsmarch on Jun 12, 2008 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
but he hasn't had a superb career
He has had a good career with a ton of promise. The problem is that he isn’t improving. He isn’t a 20 HR guy, and I am starting to wonder if he ever will be. Last year he was 11th in OPS and 10th in OBP for a LF. Yes he steals bags, but he still doesn’t get on base or hit for power.
The “haters” don’t hate Carl; we think Carl is a good player, but he could be a great player. He looked like he was poised to become a great player, but I am not so sure anymore. At the beginning of the year, I thought this was the year where he finally put it all together, but that hasn’t happened yet. I hope it does, though.
For the record, his career OPS+ splits by month:
March/April: 86
May: 100
June: 100
July: 109
August: 103
September: 100
SO his breakout may still happen. Maybe we’ll get to add October to that list as well; him hitting would help a lot in that respect.
by rglass44 on Jun 12, 2008 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
OVERRATED
Don’t get me wrong I love CC and if anyone deserves to be here when we finally start winning its him, but its true. It’s not just this year either. He plays one of the least demanding positions in the field. He wouldn’t play CF last year which just killed us. He doesn’t like hitting 1st. He doesn’t like hitting 3rd. He needs days off because his knees hurt from the turf. Come on! He needs to step it up and do what the team asks of him.
He has the physical tools to be the best defensive LFer in the game yet isn’t. He makes mental errors and he isn’t that good coming in or going back. He is unbelievable going left or right though. I watched a replay and think he should of gotten to the ball Quinlan hit yesterday. He can’t bunt. He doesn’t work the count or walk often. He has bad at bats regularly. He still hasn’t seem to have gotten that anticipation great base stealers have to know when the right time to go is. His power hasn’t developed like some of us hoped.
Wow I made him sound like the worst player ever, sorry. He is having a tough year at the plate so far, but I believe his avg will come up. Honestly lately it looks like he has had a better approach as far as patience goes. By the ned of the year he will be back to what he has been for us and that is an above average playerjust not a great one
by Sveet on Jun 12, 2008 12:23 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
But how do really feel?
Seriously, I agree although I’m not sure too many are piling on CC. He’s still very much a crowd favorite. Personally I think his knee is hurting him a lot more than he’s letting on which is impacting his speed. Speed as we know is a critical element to Carl’s offensive game.
I share your optimism regarding Craw’s rejuvenated return after the suspension. I think he’ll have a fine second half. That said this year has been difficult and CC will tell you his performance is below par. I will also say (and have long said) that for Crawford to reach the next pinnacle he has to learn how to work deep counts and be willing to take a strike. Having plate discipline doesn’t mean giving up your aggression it means being patiently aggressive.
by TampaMet on Jun 12, 2008 12:53 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Calm Down
Well most of what I said was said in jest, I thought that would have been obvious from the beginning. But I do think C.C. is the most exciting player on the team to watch, and I have to disagree with most of you and say he is a great left-fielder. I was serious in saying that he has saved a lot of runs and pitcher’s arms with the catches he has made this year. And R.J., I feel bad like I hurt your feelings or something. It was a joke man. Lighten up, it’s your off-day after all. Of course I like all of your statistical analysis, why else would I come to the site? If you are a baseball fan, you are a stat-hog to some degree. My real point here is that he does a lot of things for the team that numbers can’t indicate, and people are not to quick to point that out. I think most of you proved that point for me though. Yea sure, grit and hustle are a part of that, but I was more talking about defense, rattling pitchers, a lot of things davidsmarch mentioned. And I don’t think the team should look to trade him, as some others have suggested in other posts. But I think we can all agree that he will get some more offense going this year (hopefully). Also, besides C.C. haters, I hate paragraphs.
by free hotdogs on Jun 12, 2008 1:26 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Statistical analysis does say something about his defense
That he is consistently one of the best. He has been in the top 5 in RF and ZR in every year since 2005. He is usually in the top 3 as well.
by rglass44 on Jun 12, 2008 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
CC has a ton of talent, but he hasn’t yet learned to be a baseball player. Now I disagree with the perception that he is having a horrible year. His year isn’t horrible. Compared to Pena he looks he belongs in the hall of fame. But both guys will improve. CC will impove slightly this year and over time as he learns how to play. How to properly play LF, how to have an elite approach up to bat, how to situationally hit, and most important to take on a role that MAXIMIZES his ability. CC has always thought he was something he is not. That is exactly what he doesn’t bunt. The light will eventually come on for him. For now we have to stick with the growing pains, but what he is now is still pretty darned good.
by matthan on Jun 12, 2008 1:34 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Really???
Compared to Pena he looks he belongs in the hall of fame.
by Sveet on Jun 12, 2008 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes
Maybe I am a bit more critical than most of Pena because he is on my fantasy team. But he is having a very bad year. He has a couple good games, but other than that he has done close to nothing at the plate. In the field he has done very good. Everybody I know cringes when Pena comes up to bat, especially if we are losing late in the game with men on base. He is the last person I want up. I think he will turn it around, but so far he has been the biggest disappointment on this team.
by matthan on Jun 12, 2008 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You are so wrong it is ridiculous..
Pena’s OPS+ is 109…CC’s is 85
Don’t let the facts get in the way. Outside of Bartlett, CC has been the worst everyday player on this team.
by td32 on Jun 12, 2008 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
no you're wrong
use your god damn eyes, and don’t rely on stats to back you up. so he’s hit some HR’s, and has some RBI’s, i agree with the assessment that, right now, late in the game with runners on, he is the LAST PERSON i want to see at bat.
by davidsmarch on Jun 12, 2008 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Relying on facts to support an argument is unacceptable.
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on Jun 12, 2008 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So in your expert opinion, how is CC better then Pena offensively this season?
by td32 on Jun 12, 2008 4:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i'm not going to get into a long drawn out debate,
i use my eyes. but for you statheads, here’s some for you:
RISP: CC – .288 5k’s Pena – .268 25k’s (hense, no contact)
Men on 3rd: CC – .286 0k’s Pena – .222 5k’s
2 outs, RISP: CC – .288 Pena – .138
if you need more, i’ll keep going…
by davidsmarch on Jun 12, 2008 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i'm not going to get into a long drawn out debate,
too late..
by SuperB on Jun 12, 2008 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What's the Slugging and OBP with men on?
K’s are overrated BTW
by td32 on Jun 12, 2008 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
sure they are,
moving men over, or getting guys in on a sac fly from 3rd is totally overrated…
by davidsmarch on Jun 12, 2008 4:44 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Pull the stats that show how often Pena failed to get them in with less then 2 outs, compared to CC. Just putting the ball in play doesnt mean a run is coming in.
This is an idiotic debate. Look at their OPS+ which is a valuable stat, instead of 1 or 2 completely random stats that dont show a player’s overrall offensive value.
by td32 on Jun 12, 2008 4:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
OPS+ is compared to other players of the same position
and has nothing to do with their offensive value on this team right now.
by davidsmarch on Jun 12, 2008 4:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
“Pull the stats that show how often Pena failed to get them in with less then 2 outs, compared to CC. Just putting the ball in play doesnt mean a run is coming in.”
i really don’t know where to look for those stats.
by davidsmarch on Jun 12, 2008 4:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
With Runners in scoring position
How do you like these lines:
CC: .305/.365/.670 in 52 AB’s
Pena: .410/.583/.993 in 45 AB’s
by td32 on Jun 12, 2008 4:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
well those are wrong,
not sure where you got them, but i already listed that stat:
RISP: CC – .288 5k’s Pena – .268 25k’s
by davidsmarch on Jun 12, 2008 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Those are OBP/SLG/OPS
More relevevant stats as they correlate to runs scored.
by td32 on Jun 12, 2008 5:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
no, no they don't
why do i care if pena takes a walk or hits a hr every 20th time at bat, but strikes out or doesn’t get on base much more often?
by davidsmarch on Jun 12, 2008 5:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, yes they do.
Considering there’s been a ton of research poured into it and those three stats do correlate better to runs scored.
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on Jun 12, 2008 5:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
nice time to jump in,
show me the research and i’ll read it, until then, it’s pretty obvious that is CC is the better clutch hitter.
by davidsmarch on Jun 12, 2008 5:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Okay, two quickies.
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=2596
http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=48531
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on Jun 12, 2008 5:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And here
http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/ops-for-the-masses/
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on Jun 12, 2008 5:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
given,
there is of course going to be a correlation b/t runs scored and OPS/SLG, that is a given. what i take issue with is stating that simply b/c one player has a higher OPS/SLG that that makes them more clutch with RISP.
by davidsmarch on Jun 12, 2008 5:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
he does get outs less which makes it more likely that someone drives the runs in
Jim Rice loves hitting w/ RISP though…
by rglass44 on Jun 12, 2008 5:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's the problem
“Clutchness” variates from year to given year, so in reality all you’re doing is hoping that your best hitter - the one with the high OPS - is going to be up in those situations.
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on Jun 12, 2008 5:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not w/ a man on third and less tah 2 out
by rglass44 on Jun 12, 2008 4:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Obviously...But CC's double play was useful yesterday
by td32 on Jun 12, 2008 4:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
not sure what that has to do with anything
by davidsmarch on Jun 12, 2008 4:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That there are worse things then K's
It was a random statement…much like your random stats you are cherry picking that dont show overrall value.
by td32 on Jun 12, 2008 4:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
who the fuck is talking about overall value?
i thought we were talking about who we’d like at bat in the clutch, or with players on…
by davidsmarch on Jun 12, 2008 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
See post above, and your arument is dismantled
Pena is clearly better with men in scoring position.
by td32 on Jun 12, 2008 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
see my response,
and you’re rebut is dismantled…
by davidsmarch on Jun 12, 2008 5:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
no,
the stats you’re choosing to use make no sense in this context.
by davidsmarch on Jun 12, 2008 5:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
My context is with RISP
All you are listing are K’s with a runner on 3rd. In that respect, Pena has sucked. I get pissed when that happens. But just because CC doesnt K, that doesnt mean he is getting a run home.
by td32 on Jun 12, 2008 5:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
is a runner on 3rd not a RISP?
that’s part of the big picture here…
by davidsmarch on Jun 12, 2008 5:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
A diamond moron?
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on Jun 12, 2008 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Huh?
I played quite a bit of baseball, so most of my judgements are based on what I see. In the last year or so, I have tried to implement statistical analysis to enhance those judgements. This website is great on both fronts.
As bad as Pena is playing, he is still outperforming CC. He makes less outs, hits for more power, plays great D, and works the count.
by td32 on Jun 12, 2008 4:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Really??? (again)
right now, late in the game with runners on, he is the LAST PERSON i want to see at bat.Jason Bartlett?
by Sveet on Jun 12, 2008 4:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This.
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on Jun 12, 2008 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
See, I dislike this line of thinking.
Okay, so there are certain guys you’d rather have up late in the game with runners on, but what about early in the game? What about in the 6th? The clutch states fluctuate so much I don’t think there’s one guy you want up in this team, outside of B.J., that would be universal. Some would say Pena’s power and walks outweigh Carl’s speed and contact, while others argue Pena strikes out too much to be effective. At the same time, Carl is actually more likely to ground into a double play.
Of those two, it depends highly on the situation, and even then I’m hoping B.J. gets his first.
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on Jun 12, 2008 4:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
clutch stats*
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on Jun 12, 2008 4:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i'll take BJ at bat any day over any of the players we have now,
that’s not even an argument.
but maybe it is, according to td32 you have to have a high slg.% and hit a ton of HR’s to be a clutch guy…
by davidsmarch on Jun 12, 2008 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Check out the stats I listed above
With runners in scoring position, which is what you brought up earlier, Pena clearly is a better performer.
by td32 on Jun 12, 2008 4:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
not sure where you got those stats,
but they are clearly wrong.
by davidsmarch on Jun 12, 2008 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
According to you...
But BA and K’s are relevant… thanks for clearing that up for everyone.
by td32 on Jun 12, 2008 5:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yes, they are
i.e. when you have a guy on 3rd, i could care less whether you walk. i care much more whether you strike out or not.
by davidsmarch on Jun 12, 2008 5:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If the bases are loaded w/ 2 outs
Would you rather have a single or a double? That is why SLG% is relevant…especially when Pena has a FAR higher SLG in those situations….but keep trying.
by td32 on Jun 12, 2008 5:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
actually
Pena is slugging .333 with the bases loaged, CC is slugging .500. but nice try.
by davidsmarch on Jun 12, 2008 5:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
In 4AB's compared to 3AB's
Great sample size. I was using it purely as an example. With runner in scoring position, in a larger sample size, Pena has clearly outperformed him.
by td32 on Jun 12, 2008 5:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
hey, you brought up bases loaded,
don’t be mad when i toss back the stat.
by davidsmarch on Jun 12, 2008 5:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Haha...
You seem mildy retarded so I figured I would try to paint a picture for you so you could see how having a good SLG% would be beneficial.
The fact of the matter is with RISP, Pena has been far more productive.
by td32 on Jun 12, 2008 5:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
see below,
and you will see you are wrong.
by davidsmarch on Jun 12, 2008 5:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
though i'm not altogether sure how you get,
“With runner in scoring position, in a larger sample size, Pena has clearly outperformed him” considering that Pena has had 60 AB’s with RISP, CC has had 52, yet they have the same number of RBI’s. does that seem like one person clearly out performed the other? also, considering that Pena batting 4th is much more likely to have RISP then CC, batting 2nd, i’d say that it’s perfectly clear who has outperformed who here.
by davidsmarch on Jun 12, 2008 5:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Did Carl have more bases loaded opportunities? More with multiple men on? Your logic is flawed…
by td32 on Jun 12, 2008 5:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
With men on, career
Carl’s OPS is .815, Pena’s is .854, and that encompasses all situations with men on, -3, -2, 1-, 12, 1-3, -23, 123.
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on Jun 12, 2008 5:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
hardly,
it’s spot on. and you know how many times each were at bat with the bases loaded, you listed it earlier. do your own stat research, i’m done trying to convince you.
by davidsmarch on Jun 12, 2008 5:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I can't believe I am saying this but....
for now at least, with the game on the line I want Bartlett at first base, and either Floyd or Gross or Longoria at the plate.
by free hotdogs on Jun 12, 2008 4:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well of course every situation is different. I just value strikeouts much moreso than most. I’m not a fan of a player like Pena. Where there are 2 major options every at bat and one minor option. Strike out or home run with the occasional walk. Unless you are Ruthian or Dunnian with your home runs I just do not see much value with those players. When Pena is hitting tons of home runs he is a great asset, when he isn’t hitting a boatload of home runs then he is a horrible player (offensively). It is really that simple. Your beloved OPS statistic doesn’t reflect how horrible such a player is. That just isn’t winning baseball.
I value the things that don’t really show up on the stat sheet. Moving men over. Sacrifices. Great defensive plays. Etc.
Just a disclaimer I am probably biased against Pena because he is screwing Longoria by ending about 7 innings a game (yes thats called an exaggeration) .
by matthan on Jun 12, 2008 10:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pena won the SS last year, remember?
His numbers from last year: .282/ .411/.627/1.038 w/ 46 HR and 29 2B. He was the second or third best hitter in baseball last year. I’d take that over David Eckstein anyday.
by rglass44 on Jun 12, 2008 10:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He's still homering every 19 at-bats, sure it's more than the 11 last year, but let's not act like Pena's power is gone.
His career average of .250/.348/.491 with 30ish homeruns is still a well above average player and an asset, not a liability to this and most teams.
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on Jun 12, 2008 10:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Its also come in major spurts and he has had major droughts. Both players are playing pretty bad currently so its kind of oorthless to debate who has done worse. I think both will improve, but I just like CC more right now. Both aren’t helping much, but Pena is hurting more. Well now that he is on the DL he isn’t. But I’m sure you get the point.
by matthan on Jun 12, 2008 11:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So he's just like every baseball player all time?
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on Jun 12, 2008 11:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually no, because when Pena slumps he strikes out nearly every at bat. That certainly isn’t every baseball player of all time.
by matthan on Jun 13, 2008 8:26 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nice hyperbole.
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on Jun 13, 2008 10:09 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pena was way more valuable last year
and (stats wise, ahhh i know) he’s been better this year.
by rglass44 on Jun 12, 2008 11:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Both of these statements are valid.
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on Jun 12, 2008 11:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sure last year
This year CC has been more valuable and every other year in CCs career CC has been more valuable. Don’t forget that Pena was a journeyman nobody for his entire career up until last year. If you are going to compare careers CC has him beat by a mile.
by matthan on Jun 13, 2008 8:27 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
How has CC been more valuable this year?
by rglass44 on Jun 13, 2008 10:02 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It is a close argument. I’d rather have CC who is stealing bases and producing runs than the K machine. Pena gets props for his defense. Also then you have to factor in Pena has been one of the worst first basemen this year (offensively) whereas CC hasn’t (factor in SB/Runs please). So Pena has been a bigger over detriment.
by matthan on Jun 13, 2008 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
CC has more runs because he gets on base via FC like once a game
and he has better bats behind him. If you add all of CC’s SB to his singles to make them doubles his OPS is still lower than Pena’s. He also has 2.5 times as many GIDPs.
by rglass44 on Jun 13, 2008 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Factor in the SBs, not the runs.
Those aren’t all his doing.
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on Jun 13, 2008 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Career OPS+: Pena 123, Crawford 102
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on Jun 13, 2008 10:08 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That statistic doesn't mean anything
It doesn’t measure heart and hustle.
by rglass44 on Jun 13, 2008 10:21 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i can't believe you are even trying to make that argument,
come on man, you are just going a bit too far here with this stats garbage throwing out OPS+ as a measure of who’s had the better career. ask 100 baseball men, they will all tell you the exact same thing, and that’s that CC’s career is on track to break records, and Pena is starting to make people believe he’s a one year wonder with power.
by davidsmarch on Jun 13, 2008 10:39 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
"One year wonder with power"
Frankly you can make the argument that Carl has had a better career, but you can’t throw that statement out there considering Pena’s had six of seven seasons (including this one) with an OPS+ over 100 and all seven with an OPS+ over 95. He’s a well above average player for his career.
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on Jun 13, 2008 10:59 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i disagree whole heartedly,
not with the stats or his OPS+, but obviously you are putting WAY too much credit towards how much OPS+ is reflective of a players true value, given that none of the teams he has been “an above average player” for desired in ANY way to keep him on their team. it is readily apparent that his OPS+ is not an accurate reflection of the career he has had.
by davidsmarch on Jun 13, 2008 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Horrible argument.
Fred McGriff played for five teams in an 11 year period. Did he suck? Robert Alomar played for three teams in five years, did he suck? Troy Percival has played for four teams in four seasons, does he suck?
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on Jun 13, 2008 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
RJ you are grasping at straws
McGriff, Alomar, and Percival didn’t play for a lot of teams in their prime because they were not wanted. They switched around in the twilight of their careers or were a part of blockbuster trades. Pena has been released, or traded, because the teams he was on did not want him. He wasn’t good enough for them. That is a huge difference that you aren’t factoring in.
Pena had to sign a freaking minor league contract with the Rays. He was NOT a good player prior to last year. Unless all of baseball is wrong and RJ is right of course.
by matthan on Jun 13, 2008 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pena was saving his power for our homeruns though.
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on Jun 13, 2008 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
With a higher career OPS+ than Carl Crawford.
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on Jun 13, 2008 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Crawford is playing like a AAAA leaguer this year. Pena has stunk his entire career besides last year. If you are smarter than every GM in baseball then perhaps you should apply for one of those gigs?
by matthan on Jun 13, 2008 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Failed logic is failed.
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on Jun 13, 2008 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
OPS stinks
OPS is a horribel statistic to use. It overvalues certain types of players while undervaluing others. A lot of CCs value comes from his speed-stolen bases and runs. Where is that in OPS? Also it doesn’t punish hitters like Pena and Howard. They strike out a boatload which is much worse than a normal out. Yet OPS doesn’t count that against them. OPS clearly overvalues a guy like Pena, and clearly MLB agrees with that since nobody wanted him on a MLB roster prior to last year.
by matthan on Jun 13, 2008 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
As I posted above
CCs OPS is lower than Carlos’s even if you figure his SB in as additional bases he’s hit for. Thus his SB don’t seem to be as beneficial as you make them out to be. Also, SO aren’t really worse than other outs as has been proven by multiple people.
by rglass44 on Jun 13, 2008 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
SOs are worse than making contact and getting an out. Any person that has played a minute of baseball knows that. To argue otherwise is simply laughable. Moving runners over and putting pressure on the defense is very important. If you take all of Penas K’s and imagine that he made contact with the ball (even if they all resulted in an out) you’d see that the Rays would have scored more runs by a fairly noticeable amount. Not a tremendous amount more, but a handful.
by matthan on Jun 13, 2008 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That is worse than a strike out. A triple play would be the worst. OPS ignores all of that. Not all outs are the same and certainly not all hits are the same. And they certainly should not be holding weights that are equally spaced out. Counting total bases is a freaking joke. Do you really think singles are 1/4 of a home run or that a triple is 3/4 of a home run? Come the heck on. The values of those bases are obviously not equally spaced.
by matthan on Jun 13, 2008 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So now slugging % is a BS stat
Are any stats besides SBs a good one? I’d say that SBs and saves are the two least valuable statistics in all of baseball.
The point of my GIDPs comment was pointing out that even though CC is SO MUCH FASTER he still has GIDP more than twice as many times as Pena. Maybe that’s because Pena struck out a few more times.
by rglass44 on Jun 13, 2008 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Slugging, OPS, BA, and the rest are all decent tools to use together. It gives you information that you have to use with a grain of salt.
Look, you seem to be a decent baseball guy. Are you telling me that going from 2nd to 3rd with 2 outs should be equivalent to going from 3rd to home with any outs? Or heck even 2nd to 3rd with 2 outs compared to 2nd to 3rd with no outs? They are FAR different, yet the differences aren’t noted in these statistics.
by matthan on Jun 13, 2008 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Also I agree with the second point. Clearly if someone hits the ball more they will GIDP more often. That should be a part of the formula. I’m not arguing against that. If you use all the correct weights and all the possibilities into a formula and Pena comes out ahead then so be it. I don’t have a bone to pick with either guy. My beef is you are using a formula that clearly suits the type of player Pena is while hurting the type of player CC is.
by matthan on Jun 13, 2008 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And this requires the huge leap of faith that Pena and Crawford would score from second on the same hits and score from third on the same sac flies. You are simply trying to quantify something that cannot be quantified.
by matthan on Jun 13, 2008 1:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So you think that these rare plays that have these two players in these circumstances is a bigger impact than their OPS difference?
That seems silly to me.
by rglass44 on Jun 13, 2008 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
They aren’t rare plays. It is how baseball is played. How baseball is won and lost. There are numerous problems with OPS. Frankly there are other variables that would be good predictors of run scored. Take total ABs for example. I’m sure that is a pretty damn good predictor of total runs scored for a team. But that doesn’t tell you how good a player is.
by matthan on Jun 13, 2008 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Do you read anything?
Has anything ever convinced you that what you see may not be true? Have you seen the spherical nature of the earth or do you just believe its flat? You argue with things that have held true in thousands of seasons. People much smarter than you or I have researched these things and they have come to certain conclusions that have revolutionized baseball.
Let’s try something. Who would you rather have: Juan Pierre or Ryan Howard?
by rglass44 on Jun 13, 2008 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why don’t you go with someone like Rickey Henderson?
by matthan on Jun 13, 2008 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And Pena is nowhere near Ryan Howard.
We are debating the value of OPS. The Pena v CC thing was settled years ago by GMs around MLB. Pena was a journeyman AAAA leaguer and CC was a top 2 round fantasy pick (oh stat geeks!!!). It isn’t even a debate tbh.
by matthan on Jun 13, 2008 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pena's been better this year and last
R-Ho was in the minors until he was 26. If Pena hadn’t been rushed because he was so talented than he wouldn’t have been passed around. Adrian Gonzalez is a great player, but he was a throw in two different trades. Sometimes players take more time to develop.
Fantasy baseball isn’t real. SB have way more value in fake baseball. Did you read the DePodesta blog post? SB are nearly irrelevant in player value. They are so ovverrated.
by rglass44 on Jun 13, 2008 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree that SBs are vastly overrated in fantasy baseball. But to ignore them completely is also not the way to go.
Pena was better last year. But I wouldn’t say so this year. It is like picking between rotten milk and rotten cheese.
And I hope Pena turns out to eb great. If the rest of his years in Tampa are like last year I’ll be thrilled. But when talking about their careers up to this point you can’t argue that it takes some players longer to develop than others. It is about what they’ve actually done. So far CC has had a far better career. It may not end up that way, but that is how it is now.
by matthan on Jun 13, 2008 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I really suggest you either go play the game or watch closer. I understand to stat geeks that you can’t have a billion variables. But with baseball you are eliminating too many of them. A strikeout with noone out and 2 outs isn’t nearly as bad as a strike out with the bases loaded and 2 outs. But a strike out with the bases loaded and no outs isn’t nearly as bad as one with 2 outs. You are failing to capture all of this. League wide this distinction would make very little difference, but on a player to player basis would have the potential to be significant.
by matthan on Jun 13, 2008 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
what about a line out to the ss?
or a dp? or pop out?
by rglass44 on Jun 13, 2008 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That is my point exactly. They are all potentially different and should be treated as such.
by matthan on Jun 13, 2008 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The thing is
there are 27 outs a game. They are the most important resource in a baseball game. If you have 9 players that never get out or get a hit, you can’t lose. If they never hit and walk 90% of the time you still win. Outs are what determine how long you stay on offense. Thus, they dtermine how often you can score. The type of out is far less important than the amount of outs created.
by rglass44 on Jun 13, 2008 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with that. But all outs aren’t the same just like all bases aren’t the same. I’m not sure the best way to weight all outs and all hits (plus walks). If I knew it I’d share it. I’m just arguing that they shouldn’t be the same in case of outs and they shouldn’t be equally spaced in case of bases.
by matthan on Jun 13, 2008 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
also OPS has been proven to be the single biggest predictor of RS by a team
by rglass44 on Jun 13, 2008 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
We aren’t talking OPS being the best predictor of runs scored for a team. We are talking about OPS being the best predictor of a players ability. There is a big difference between the two. The most obvious reason is it causes base stealers and speed guys to be underrated. My next bigger beef is it makes no distinction between the types of outs. That again is a major flaw. And it just so happens one describes CC and the other Pena.
by matthan on Jun 13, 2008 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I took care of CCs stolen bases
and you overestimate the negative impact of SO. Baseball is a statistical game and you can’t just dismiss statistical studies that have proven that Ks are no worse than regular outs.
by rglass44 on Jun 13, 2008 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're acting like a bloody moron. Stop acting like a bloody moron.
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on Jun 13, 2008 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Laughable
I can’t believe someone is actually arguing that they would rather have Pena up in a clutch situation than Crawford. Seriously, have you guys been watching the games this year? It is completely irrelevant that Pena’s Ops is higher this year than Crawford’s. Pena has stretches where he is brilliant and stretches where he is absolutely terrible. His OPS is off the charts some weeks and absolutely horrid during other weeks. I know I am not alone that when Pena would come up in a clutch situation I would groan and predict the SO and then the SO would occur with out fail. I distinctly remember being happy when Pena would just make contact even if he hit into an out. Pena is a streakiest player ever and players like that are not the guys you want up with a game on the line. That is the reason he has bounced around from team to team. They weren’t willing to wait out his horrendous cold streaks which can single handedly dismantle an offense—as we have seen firsthand.
Normally, I would take the guy with the higher OPS but not in this situation.
by RaysTheRoof on Jun 13, 2008 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
. Pena has stretches where he is brilliant and stretches where he is absolutely terrible.
Every baseball player, ever, has these stretches.
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on Jun 13, 2008 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
really
so you are telling me that pena isn’t more streaky than the average player? You can really say this with a straight face. You no longer have any credibility.
by RaysTheRoof on Jun 13, 2008 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, I'm the one withotu crediblity here
Please qualify your statement that he’s more streaky than the average player. Go through databases and show me that Pena is far more streaky than the average player. I’ll be waiting.
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on Jun 13, 2008 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
you're being unreasonable,
and it seems at this point just playing devils advocate for the fun of it. no matter who you feel is the more valuable player, there is no argument as to who is more consistent, neither you not i need a database to show us that.
by davidsmarch on Jun 13, 2008 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not arguing who's more consistent
I’m arguing that Pena is just like most ballplayers in his streaks, why do people constantly act like Pena goes weeks without a hit? He Ks a lot, we all knew this from before, it should not be a surprise.
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on Jun 13, 2008 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have no desire to do this because I already know what the outcome will be. Pena will be an outlier.
Stats are extremely useful, but aren’t we allowed to make any conclusions by watching games anymore? What’s the fun of watching a game if you can’t turn your observations into arguments?
by RaysTheRoof on Jun 13, 2008 3:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I didn't say that.
You’re the one calling out someone’s credibility, I expected you to have actual findings at hand if you’re going to do so.
I’m all for using your observations in arguments, that’s most of what I do, only I see if I have factual proof supporting my hunches.
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on Jun 13, 2008 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So there's this stat called Equivalent Average,
it takes account Of Stolen Bases, .260 is average, .220 or lower is horrible, .300 or better is great.
Crawford has a .252 EqA, Pena has a .271.
Can you please admit you’re wrong now?
by P Brady on Jun 13, 2008 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
no because his eyes tell him so...
and they are infallible
by rglass44 on Jun 13, 2008 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
speaking of pena when is he coming back?
and cc will definetly bounce back after he serves his suspension
by RaysOfHope on Jun 12, 2008 1:50 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Who is going to play LF with Crawford out?
Hinske vs RHP, and Gomes vs LHP?
by Sveet on Jun 12, 2008 4:24 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Don't tease me, bro.
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on Jun 12, 2008 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Tase in this case is tease.
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on Jun 12, 2008 4:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This fanpost was clearly written by Stephen Colbert
“I’m using my gut!”
by P Brady on Jun 12, 2008 5:39 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Are lingering injuries a major concern?
While Crawford is definitely a gamer, some of his smaller injuries are cause for concern. His wrist was an issue for half of a season and effected his numbers, now his knee is causing lingering issues. Granted, Carl has improved every year in nearly every single category, but with some of these questions, I think the real question that has to be posed, is can you depend on him? Consistency is a question at this point. Yes, Crawford has great defense, but it’s a position many in the mlb don’t value defense for. If you have it, great, but it’s not a necessity, making it a luxury.
Look, Crawford when he’s on, makes the top of the lineup better. I’m just wondering as he approaches team/player contract options and long-term contract questions, if he’s the type of player you should lock-up long term.
by raysfaninminnesota on Jun 12, 2008 7:27 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
No .... DJ should if he continues to progress, replace CC in LF
Protect the Trop: Keep northerners out.
by St Pete Native on Jun 12, 2008 8:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Jennings will be replacing Upton in CF
Unless a miracle happens and we sign Upton longterm
by usfraysfan on Jun 12, 2008 8:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wouldn't consider Upton re-signing a "miracle"
All he has indicated thus far is that he wants the money, irrespective of where it comes from. Sure, he may re-sign year to year, but he made no qualifications about where the money is coming from. I would be very surprised if Crawford is playing here and Upton isn’t after 2010.
by Patrick L. Kennedy on Jun 12, 2008 11:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Then again
When is Upton first eligible for free agency, after the 2011 season? In that case, I would be more surprised to see Upton gone after 2011 than I would seeing Crawford gone after 2010.
by Patrick L. Kennedy on Jun 12, 2008 11:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
HAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA
this is so funny.
Top Josh Paul Pornos- Big Navi Stroking, 2pitchers1cup, BJ to the Balls
BELIEVE in 08!
by SRQman on Jun 13, 2008 1:45 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Grab some popcorn and enjoy the show.
Longlorious.
by RATW on Jun 13, 2008 10:01 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Am I dreaming or did someone make the argument CC brings heart and hustle:
“I refuse to bat leadoff, bunt, and play CF.”
by P Brady on Jun 13, 2008 1:18 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
that's ridiculous,
this may have been one of the more intelligently debated topics ever to come up on this blog…
by davidsmarch on Jun 13, 2008 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Current hot formula:
Someone is accused of “hating” based on an observation perceived as an attempt to bash a player .. stats are quoted.. stats are dismissed with “do you even watch the game?” or “I listen to my gut”.. hilarity ensues.
Longlorious.
by RATW on Jun 13, 2008 4:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Caps fit this thread perfectly though.
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on Jun 13, 2008 4:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
WELL THEN...
Wish JESSY DARCY a happy birthday!!! Gees….
by DAM on Jun 13, 2008 9:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Did we miss him?
Just got finished watching the Rays-Cubs game. Awesome! What a finish.
Crawford just got finished with his 4 game suspension and will be back tomorrow. The question I pose to you guys is Did we miss him? When Upton, Longoria, or even Bartlett among others are out I really feel like the team loses something and is not as good. When Crawford is out I really don’t think this team gets much worse without him. I think Hinske in left provides a power bat with good plate discipline. He has also seemed to have come up with a lot of big hits this year. We obviously lose defense and speed, but does the team take a significant downgrade with Hinske in left?
by Sveet on Jun 17, 2008 11:09 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
In the long run
I think we do. Crawford is a really good ballplayer who can have an impact on the game in many ways, far more than Hinske can. While I fully subscribe to the view that his lack of patience and apparent plateauing in his power keep him from the superstar status that many want to accord him, he still is an excellent player.
Over the full course of the year, I expect his performance to be within the normal range he has shown since arriving. I really think it a blinkered view to overlook the fact (it is a fact, I think) that he has underperformed so far this season. That is, he has underperformed our reasonable expectations for him and while exciting and having some fine games has not really been a very good player so far. But over the season he should be more valuable than Hinske, and he does have an impact that is not fully grasped in the normal statistical measures, although those measures certainly do define a base line for evaluating his performance.
by bobr on Jun 17, 2008 11:34 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
This.
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on Jun 17, 2008 11:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
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