Follow-up on contention
During the previous homestand I made an entry about my views on the Rays as contenders. My conclusion was that if they continued to play well on that homestand (which they certainly did, going 8-2 overall) and had a decent road trip in three tough places to go then I'd let all my reservations go. They went 3-6 on that road trip including another sweep in Boston, falling short of my stated goal of 4-5. With their good performance in Texas and maybe only losing the finale in Anaheim because of abysmally incompetent umpiring at a crucial time in the game I felt a little better about the rest of the season but I feel that they haven't completely gotten over the hump yet because of one potentially damaging weakness.
That weakness is 3/5 of the rotation. Kazmir and Shields are fine, if they're healthy nobody should worry about them at all. In fact they're a great 1-2 punch to throw at teams (personally I couldn't care less about Shields' road performance this year, HFA has been somewhat out of whack so far anyway and he was fine on the road in 2007, there's nothing to worry about in my eyes). The problem is with the other guys.

Edwin Jackson had those two great starts in the first half of May that really impressed even me. Since then however he has thrown 28.1 innings with a 5.08 ERA, allowing 36 hits and 15 walks to only 19 strikeouts. That's very similar to what he did before those two great starts. He did have that brief stint of greatness, showing that at times he really can put it together, but he's still very hittable, walks too many, and doesn't strike out nearly enough for the supposed power pitcher he is. This is with offense down across the league and a great defense backing him. How can we say that he has really turned a corner when his short time of brilliance is sandwiched by two longer periods of the same old stuff?
Matt Garza has tons of talent, nobody can disagree with that, and his great stuff is much more obvious than Jackon's (as Jackson often doesn't look like his pitches are anything special). That being said he obviously lacks a handle on his emotions and it repeatedly gets him into trouble out there. His walk rate isn't terrible, 3.6/9 is manageable for a power pitcher getting strikeouts, but he isn't getting the strikeouts. Obviously I don't know for sure but I think it's a fair bet that his emotional outbursts are preventing him from pitching smartly and making the pitches that fool hitters and rack up the K's.
Andy Sonnanstine doesn't have walk problems and though he has a low strikeout rate that's perfectly acceptable due to his tendency to keep hitters from jogging to first base. The problem is major hittability due to his tendency to leave balls up in the zone. His actual stuff is adequate, he doesn't throw hard but anyone who has watched his starts has seen plenty of good sequences where hitters just can't get good contact off anything. Unfortunately these periods of mystifying the batters rarely last an entire game; as I type this I'm watching the Rays-Marlins game and he began the game by giving up hard hits to the first three batters on balls left up in the zone then retiring 12 straight by keeping the ball down and the hitters off-balance. Unfortunately he went back to having trouble in the 5th and 6th innings, resulting in an early exit. I'm not sure what the problem is, it's obviously a mechanical thing, but it's a persistent problem and until he proves that he can fix it and have it stay fixed then we can't assume much about the future.
The good news is that between Jeff Niemann and the surging Mitch Talbot (ERA of 2.83 with a 51/10 K/BB in 63.2 IP over his last 10 starts) they do have options if they feel a move is necessary. The problem is that it's not necessarily that easy to decide who goes. The majority of us would favor either Jackson or Sonnanstine going, depending on our personal inclinations, but I don't think it's as simple as either camp would like it to be. Jackson does have better stuff and therefore a higher ceiling, plus his overall performance hasn't been terrible in the general results department, a 4.08 ERA on the season. However, while Sonnanstine's ceiling is limited, a mechanical/delivery option is more likely to be fixable than a lack of ability to "pitch" or general insanity on the mound. A minority might favor Garza leaving the rotation but I think he's the least problematic of the three and also has the highest ceiling.
So, while I continue to love what the team is doing and am very pleased with the progress made this season, I still have my concerns about maintaining this very high level of success over 162 games. We're well into June though and they keep playing well and nobody else is stepping up to look like a real wild card threat, plus Boston isn't exactly pulling away with the division either despite six straight wins over the Rays, so rotation concerns or not they may just become surefire contenders by default soon enough.
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I hope it doesn’t come to bringing up Niemann or Talbot to start. As controversial and inconsistent as Jackson and Sonnanstine have been, I really doubt the options are going to be better this season.
Longlorious.
by RATW on Jun 13, 2008 10:10 PM EDT 0 recs
Same.
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on
Jun 13, 2008 10:12 PM EDT
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But you know who wouldn't be?

Made by Downie.
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on
Jun 13, 2008 10:12 PM EDT
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Please don't tease.
He’d be another pitching coach as well as a consistent (but still average) starter.
by usfraysfan on
Jun 13, 2008 10:24 PM EDT
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Too bad he can't hit....
and Navy is hitting so well right now….we could convert him into a catcher…
http://sports.espn.go.com/espnmag/story?id=3336514
good read, but this is the best part of the article…
But when Brad Penny and Maddux were teammates on the Dodgers, during the last two months of 2006, they had a conversation one day that led Penny to reach a stunning conclusion: This guy knows my stuff better than I do. It was eerie, really, how easily Maddux dissected Penny’s repertoire and suggested ways to maximize it. Penny, figuring he’d take advantage of the situation, asked Maddux to call a game for him against the Cubs. And so, on the night of Sept. 13, Penny glanced into the dugout before every delivery and found Maddux, who signaled the next pitch by looking toward different parts of the ballpark. Penny threw seven scoreless innings with no walks and beat the Cubs 6-0. “Maddux probably won’t tell you that story,” Penny says. He’s right.
Kaz, Shields and Garza, having him call their games…..wow.
by chancedj on
Jun 13, 2008 11:00 PM EDT
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Edwin/Sonny too.
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on
Jun 13, 2008 11:02 PM EDT
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big trade deadline for us if we get both mad dog and griffrey
wow with our defense maddux would be unstoppable and griff would bring some pop to the lineup
by RaysOfHope on
Jun 13, 2008 11:53 PM EDT
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I’ve never played the game (above the level of Little League), but I would be a strong supporter of acquiring Maddux.. as long as we don’t pull an Expos/Tigers/Mets and give up the next Randy Johnson/John Smoltz/Scott Kazmir to make it happen.
—Rays Fan
Longlorious.
by RATW on
Jun 14, 2008 12:14 AM EDT
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ahh
I need new pants
Top Josh Paul Pornos- Big Navi Stroking, 2pitchers1cup, BJ to the Balls
BELIEVE in 08!
by SRQman on
Jun 14, 2008 12:28 AM EDT
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If we can re-sign him.
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on
Jun 13, 2008 10:45 PM EDT
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what are you smoking?
“Matt Garza has tons of talent, nobody can disagree with that, and his great stuff is much more obvious than Jackon’s (as Jackson often doesn’t look like his pitches are anything special).”
much more obvious? Jackson tops out at 99 on the gun…IN THE 8TH INNING. Garza might hit 95 on a good night.
Do you have ANY idea what the difference is between a 95 and a 99mph fastball at the big league level? it is a an entirely different universe. ANYBODY in the big leagues can hit 95. EVERYBODY struggles with 99.
I am not saying Jackson is great, but to say that Garza’s stuff “is much more obvious” just shows you never played the game.
The Revolution has begun...
by Devil Ray Guevara on Jun 13, 2008 11:40 PM EDT 0 recs
You act as if top end spend translates to each pitch thrown
Jackson sits at 93.9 and Garza at 93, the few times they top out it’s less than a four MPH differential, I’ve seen Garza hit 97, depending on whether the pitchf/x data is on a fast/slow gun.
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on
Jun 13, 2008 11:45 PM EDT
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Throwing harder does not equate to a better pitcher.
by floridaroar on
Jun 13, 2008 11:47 PM EDT
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You haven't played the game.
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on
Jun 13, 2008 11:48 PM EDT
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never said that
but to imply that Jackson doesn’t have great stuff is borderline ignorant. his problem is control. not stuff
The Revolution has begun...
by Devil Ray Guevara on
Jun 14, 2008 10:48 AM EDT
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Your entire comment was on velocity and how Jackson can top out at 99 late into ballgames.
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on
Jun 14, 2008 11:29 AM EDT
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You know
This is becoming a weekly trend well worth stopping. You come on here and each week insinuate that your opinion is worth more than everyone else’s, simply because of what you imply to be your having “played the game”. In light of the fact that there is nothing out there to substantiate your identity and association, I would suggest that you please state your points without the condescending arrogance. Especially when you’re attacking an individual who has written both longer, and in greater quality about the Rays then you have.
by Patrick L. Kennedy on
Jun 13, 2008 11:54 PM EDT
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so now we are policing opinions?
that explains a lot about you guys
The Revolution has begun...
by Devil Ray Guevara on
Jun 14, 2008 10:48 AM EDT
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Policing?
We’re doing none of the such, you haven’t been banned, warned, your post hasn’t been altered or removed, Patrick is simply stating his feelings on your vague know it all attitude accredited to “playing the game”. Whatever that game was is unknown.
What explains a lot about us guys is we don’t feel the need to go onto your site and rabble rouse or call out Cork or yourself if we disagree, and if we do I doubt we’d come off in such an inciting way.
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on
Jun 14, 2008 11:28 AM EDT
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I might not have played the game but I do watch the game. Jackson throws a lot of fastballs that, while fast, are pretty flat and mostly straight. They don’t look lively at all and have little action. He might hit 98-99 every once in a while but usually he can’t control it. Sometimes he can, which is pretty much the only time he’ll be in there in the 8th inning to throw that hard because otherwise he’s pitching more like the usual and won’t make it anywhere near the 8th. Also his slider frequently is pretty standard looking, decent break on it but nothing special and not something that will completely fool hitters.
The difference with Garza is that his fastballs have very hard action on them, moving around a lot and causing hitters to try and adjust mid swing to get around on it properly. He has his issues obviously and your fastball action doesn’t matter much if you’re leaving it over the plate because you’re pissed off and not concentrating, but he shows off high quality stuff most games even if he’s not bringing it to bear properly.
I’ve said it repeatedly but I’ll say it again. Jackson does not currently have ace stuff. His two pitches were great when he was 19 because of all the improvement he could make with age and experience, since then he has made virtually no progress with them. Sometimes his slider looks great and his fastball blows by hitters but most of the time he’s just a hard thrower with a decent breaking pitch.
by Jim Wisinski on
Jun 14, 2008 12:46 AM EDT
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I find it funny as hell
that in this thread we talk about trading for Maddux then some bozo talks about how EJax is better because he throws harder than Garza???
Speed doesnt mean sh!t. Look at Mussina this year and Maddux for his career. If you throw an off speed pitch in the low 70’s or high 60’s then your mid 80’s fastball looks like 100 MPH to the hitter.
Anyways, onto Maddux. First, this is just making me excited but there is no way in hell he comes to the American League. I’ve been a Braves fan since Bobby Cox went against the rest of the league and selected Chipper ahead of Todd Van Poppel inthe draft and I’ve watched them over the years on TBS. Maddux probably doesnt have better “stuff” than anyone in our rotation at this point in his career but I’d trade EJax or Sonny for him if they want to make a run this year just to see how Kaz and Shields would improve with Maddux in their heads the rest of the season…I dont include Garza because he probably wouldnt let Maddux teach him anything…He reminds me a bit of Beckett early in his career when all he wants to do his throw fastballs through hitters rather than keep them off balance. The only think keeping him for being one of the best pitchers in baseball is whats going on between his ears, or lack of….
Overall, if Maddux goes anywhere its back to Atlanta, Chicago or maybe Milwaukee. But if for some crazy reason he were to come to the AL and to the Rays I’m all for it. If for no other reason then to teach Kaz & Shields as much as he can. In an ideal world I’d probaby want to call up Price, Davis and McGee in Spetember also so he can spread his brillance to them as well…
Rays vs Brewers in the 09 WS.
by PriceMultiCyYoungs on Jun 14, 2008 11:48 AM EDT 0 recs










