Please move Edwin Jackson to the pen!
by hibachi7_7_7 on Jun 15, 2008 8:10 PM EDT
46 comments
I can't say I'm a fan of E-Jax in the starting rotation. He's too prone to concentration lapses throughout the course of a start and just starts throwing too many balls and putting guys on, then overcompensates by hanging meatballs over the plate for 3-run homers. There's something we usually do with pitchers who have phenomenal stuff but cant cut it as starters. Move them to the bullpen! How much more sample size do we need to prove Jackson isn't really cut out as a starter.
My suggestion is to cut Glover (I know, calling for Glover's job, real original), move Jackson to his role, and bring up Niemann to start. Don't make Jackson a long reliever like Hammel, or a multi-inning guy like Howell. Just get him used to coming in for one inning, throwing 96+ heat with a high 80's slider and getting guys out to get his confidence up. He has the potential to be a killer closer, and Percival is the kind of guy who could help teach him the tricks of the trade for the 'pen. Niemann couldn't possibly be anymore of a rollercoaster ride during starts than Jackson is, and it's time to give the #4 draft pick an extended look in the major leagues.
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He was also younger and less experienced
I think he has a decent chance at turning into a decent reliever (which is more than I can say for Glover). It is hard to believe, however, that he has the mental faculties to be able to consistently be a stable member of the starting rotation.
Listen, my dissatisfaction with Jackson is well-known
But I see no reason to alter the rotation at the present moment. For all of the hysteria about how the team’s success is untenable with Jackson, Garza, and Sonnanstine bringing up the rear, those three pitchers have respective ERAs of 4.46, 4.06, and 4.89. I’m not saying that those numbers are great, or even that they are sustainable at the present rate. All I would suggest is that, to this point, the results of the three pitchers most frequently criticized are not bad enough to warrant a desperate search for a replacement, be it through trade or promotion from the minor leagues. If one of them just completely starts tanking, then we’ll address a replacement when one is needed. Jackson and Garza both have peripheral statistics that suggest regression, and I expect Sonnanstine’s performance level to stay stagnant. But to this point, their numbers are entirely acceptable for bottom of the rotation pitchers, and I am not convinced that Talbot, Niemann, Hammel, or whomever else in-house would be an upgrade. Maybe you seek an improvement via trade, but right now no one within the organization is a better alternative than those three pitchers. The fact is, despite all of the complaining, the performances to date in the back end of the rotation really aren’t that bad.
by Patrick L. Kennedy on Jun 15, 2008 8:35 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
I have less of a problem with Sonnanstine because he’s not a guy who was ever considered a top prospect. He has marginal stuff but he clearly knows how to pitch and never gives in. Considering his profile and the fact he pitches in the AL East, I’d say he’s done pretty well for himself so far. But we all know he’s just keeping the spot warm for a top prospect (most likely Price, possibly Davis) before his inevitable move to the NL (since he seems to have a little talent swinging the stick).
Garza’s the best of the trio, and he’s also pitched the best with his 4.06 ERA. He was a top prospect and we gave up a top prospect and a ROY candidate to get him. I am slightly worried about his low K rate and K:BB ratio, but I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt for now because a 4.06 ERA from a young pitcher is perfectly acceptable. Could he turn into Jackson 2.0? Sure, but I think it’s less likely. He utterly dominated every step of the minor leagues on his way to the majors.
Jackson, on the other hand, has 350+ innings under his belt, almost all as a starter, but has mustered a sorry 5.37 ERA. He used to be an outfielder and had a 3.70 ERA in AA ball before he got called up to the majors and famously out dueled Randy Johnson. Unfortunately, he proved he didn’t belong next season, and when he was sent to AAA, he got hammered there before he was eventually sent to to us, and it hasn’t been any better since. I think a change is in order if this continues.
On an unrelated note, take a look at BA’s list of the top 10 dodgers prospects in 2005.
1. Joel Guzman
2. Chad Billingsley
3. Edwin Jackson
4. James Loney
5. Andy LaRoche
6. Russell Martin
7. Greg MIller
8. Blake DeWitt
9. Jonathan Bronxton
10. Chuck Tiffany
With the exception of Miller (who’s been destroyed by shoulder injuries), all of those players have turned into productive major leaguers EXCEPT for the ones the Rays got in trades. You think the Dodgers knew something about these guys?
by hibachi7_7_7 on Jun 15, 2008 9:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Hasn't been any better since?
Jackson’s combined ERA from the turning point during his second half of 2007, through 2008, is below 4.50. Clearly he has been better. He hasn’t reached and may never reach his gaudy potential, but his ERA has been respectable for a back end starter since mid 2007.
Agree with Patrick. The alternatives are unlikely to be upgrades and the performances to date from the back end of the rotation haven’t been quite as bad as the comments suggest (that’s not to say there isn’t room for improvement for each of the three pitchers in question).
Having said that, Jackson has looked eerily bad in the last five starts with more walks than strikeouts, 5 HR allowed and an ERA near seven. Too much lack of control and for a guy with above average stuff, there have been too many hanging sliders and flat fastballs.
Last five games:
28 IP, 35 H, 21 ER, 14 BB, 13 K, 5 HRA 6.75 ERA
After 69 appearances, including 46 starts, it’s certainly not encouraging to see him looking like the old Jackson again.
Longlorious.
I agree with the little general
Top Josh Paul Pornos- Big Navi Stroking, 2pitchers1cup, BJ to the Balls
BELIEVE in 08!
the dodgers rush their prospects too much
i mean edwin was thrown into the fire at age 20 and wasnt ready and now 1 start he looks lights out like when he was a top prospect and then there are days when he gets knocked out in the 4th inning i just wonder if it is a cofidence thing because edwin definetly has lights out stuff he just has to learn how to use it
I wonder if it's just a confidence thing with Glover.
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on Jun 15, 2008 10:54 PM EDT up reply actions
That was the joke.
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on Jun 15, 2008 11:46 PM EDT up reply actions
just starts throwing too many balls and putting guys on, then overcompensates by hanging meatballs over the plate for 3-run homers.
That’s not the wy I saw it at all
Jackson had a bad game, and needs to get better no doubt, but with the way he is visibly finally taking steps as a pitcher and been controlling the strikezone this year I have no doubt that NOBODY is moving this guy to the pen. NOt on this team, not on any otehr team. If you hate the guy, I can definitely understand that. But clearly his mistakes in yesterdays game are correctable, and he was not overmatched by that lineup the way that teams spray line shots all over the field vs Sonnanstine. If anyone is moving to the pen, Sonnanstine obviously has the inside lane on that race
Not this shit again.
You actually went made one post, maybe two, without bringing up Sonny in an Edwin debate. Nobody else mentioned Sonnanstine but somehow you found a way to do it.
Congratulations! Now stop, and this goes for bringing up Edwin in Sonnanstine conversations. They aren’t in a direct battle with each other, they’re in a direct battle with time, and neither has too much of it if things go right.
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on Jun 16, 2008 12:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Maddon screwed up
By not allowing Edwin to get those complete game shut outs. Clearly confidence has been an issue for Edwin and getting those would have had the potential to really boost his confidence.
He had 99 and 112 pitches in each of those games entering the 9th
The first was early in the year the second wasn’t too long ago. Why put the extra toil on Jackson’s arm (he was averaging 14 pitches per inning) and put him over 120 pitches when you can just as easily turn to your bullpen?
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on Jun 16, 2008 1:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Because he needs the confidence
As a former pitcher I know that pitchers like to finish what they start and the CGSO would have been huge for his confidence. This isn’t a seasoned veteran. He needs the confidence. The first one he should have finished up without a doubt. The second one I’m more on the fence about, but I still believe the right move is to get him back out there. The risk/reward of him going out for the 9th lands much further into the reward side.
Just speaking out loud: How out of the question would it be to move Ejax BACK to the OF?
In the name of Sinji Mori, we shall win!
by thebaddancingraysfan on Jun 16, 2008 12:59 PM EDT reply actions
Apparently his confidence wouldn't allow him to throw it to the right base.
"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena
by R.J. Anderson on Jun 16, 2008 1:01 PM EDT up reply actions
He has:
The speed, the bat speed, and the arm to play in the OF. I can’ see him being a power bat, but I could see him being a contact guy!
In the name of Sinji Mori, we shall win!
by thebaddancingraysfan on Jun 16, 2008 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions
I doubt it could work.
I don’t think he’s another Ankiel. The fact that he used to be an OF and now he’s a pitcher means he has a hell of an arm and at least above average speed but couldn’t hit worth his weight (see: Bush, Matt). I don’t think after 3 years in the AL and not taking batting practice he would be any good.
by hibachi7_7_7 on Jun 16, 2008 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Another Jackson Start...
And another Jackson sucks thread.
Win, lose or no decision. You can count on these threads like you count on the sun rising in the morning.
what do you expect he is so inconsistent that he is being consistent at being inconsistent
edwin made us all look like a fool early this year when he was just straight up dominanting and we were all supporting jackson, but now the edwin us last year has show up and now everyone is throwing him under the bus again and edwin is just not finding the strike zone and when he does it is hit 400+ feet
Jackson hasn't looked good...
But I am not sure about sending him to the pen for Niemann. The pitching staff can be frustrating at times, but that includes Shields and Kaz a little as well. Either way, Its the middle of June and the Rays have 40 wins. I’m not sure we need to change all that much.
He had 99 and 112 pitches in each of those games entering the 9th
^Just more proof that commanding his fastball/slider and controlling the strikezone has not been his downfall.
Look Slappy, if you don’t want to hear abbout Sonny v Jackson then don’t open one of these posts. Especially a “Jackson to the pen” one so loosely put together. I mean if we want to debate Jackson’s problems, let’s address the real issues. Lack of concentration and command have not generally been problems for him this year. Inexperience and a fractured developmental timeline are the main culprits. He is really starting to hone his skills, and these criticisms of him are not accurate right now
Jackson and Sonny are in direct battle with eachother. Just as Hammel, Sonny and Jackson were once in direct battle with eachother. The next to be demoted to the pen/traded is between Sonny and Jackson. SO why is it so hard for you to connect the dots, OR why do your panties get so twisted whenever this natural progression takes place in these highly critical debates? I guess you think I’m the first/only person to put those 2 names in the same sentence LOL
In conclusion Mr Anderson, a post titled “please move Edwin to the pen!” in itself has began the Sonny v Jackson debate and stirred the pot once again. While I think each of Sonny’s last 3-4 starts have been increasingly better, Sonny still has a leg up on Jackson for the “race to the pen”
Okay, fine, if you really want this.
5.88 K/9 4.25 BB/9 1.38 K/BB 0.87 HR/9 .298 BABIP .299 xBABIP 4.39 FIP 73.6% LOB 70% xLOB 44.5 GB%
5.82 K/9 1.61 BB/9 3.63 K/BB 0.80 HR/9 .346 BABIP .315 xBABIP 3.39 FIP 63.0% LOB 73% xLOB 44.3 GB%
Which one do you sunshine?
by R.J. Anderson on Jun 19, 2008 11:12 AM EDT up reply actions
i'll take the one with the 3.39 FIP...
who was that?
by davidsmarch on Jun 19, 2008 12:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes
The K/9 and BB/9 differences are just stunning.
by R.J. Anderson on Jun 19, 2008 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions
though to be honest,
i don’t put much stock in FIP. the guy with the sub .300 BABIP might be the better choice if you’re looking for potential.
There's a difference between...
being a pitcher and a thrower. Sonny is a pitcher, Jackson is a thrower. Jackson is on pace to throw right around 200 innings, K about 130, and walk about 100. And this means his command has gotten BETTER since last year. Yiiiiikes. He’s got a cannon for an arm and absolutely no idea on the mound how to use it correctly. Anyone with his stuff shouldn’t walk so many and strike out so few. If you’re gonna walk 100 in a season, you better rack up the K’s like Kazmir. He should be absolutely embarassed that Sonny and his 87 mph fastball gets more strikeouts than he does. Is Sonny ever gonna win 20 games, or a cy young? I highly doubt it, but he should also be a lock to be a respectable back of the roation guy for the next 10 years, which is a lot more than I can say for Jackson.
by hibachi7_7_7 on Jun 19, 2008 6:34 PM EDT up reply actions
well
Indians have said(which btw makes it sound like he WILL be dealt) that they will not give anyone a window to sign him. I don’t think I want the trade to happen now. 1 or 2 top SP spects and a good hitting spect is just too much for 2 months.
Irrelevant.
You pick and choose whats relevant or not in these debates, thats why you can never lose
“blah blah blah Sonnys (insert obscure stat) % is better than Jacksons, and shows that Sonny will be better blah blah blah”
I dont care what Sonny’s K/9 or BB/9 is. His BAA is over .300, and hes given up over 100 hits in 80 innings
btw, Edwin Jacksons ERA was 3.47 and then he faced, in order, the 1st place Chicago White Sox, the 1st place Boston Red Sox, the 1st place Florida Marlins and the 1st place LA Angels
He has faced 4 first place teams in a row, and while he hasnt been very good he hasnt been horrible either and his ERA still remainns a half point better than Sonny
So, my stats suck, but you use ERA.
You know, I’m not going to waste my time on this one.
by R.J. Anderson on Jun 20, 2008 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions
In conclusion
I take Jackson over Sonny
You showed me 10 stats that say YOU will take Sonny over Jackson, and all I need to do is show you Sonnys BAA and ERA to proove my point
Keep digging though, Im sure one of these days Sonny will live up to what “his numbers suggest he is supposed to be”
I think the best way to measure Sonny v Jackson is with your eyes
Their styles and their inconsistencies make comparing numbers at this stage of their career fairly problematic.
Old debate
Why do you debate between Sonny and EJax? They are both in the rotation therefore it is a stupid debate. Come up with resonable canidates to take their position in the rotation and then you can have a meaningful debate. And please do not start with Howell or Hammell
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