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Chock full of dumb (please don't take this too seriously)

Converse5vp3_tiny by Vin on

Really didn't think I needed to say that, but oh well.

 

While these past few months have been great, the newfound sense of winning they've brought have led me to an unfortunate conclusion: A team's winning percentage is directly proportionate to the amount of dumb in it's fanbase.

"What am I talking about?" you ask. Well, lets take a look...

Edwin Jackson and Andy Sonnanstine aren't pitching very well. Smart.
Edwin Jackson and/or Andy Sonnanstine need to be moved out of the rotation ASAP. Dumb.


    Winning means bandwagoners. Bandwagoners are, by nature, extremely shortsighted. Kazmir (2012), Shields (2014), Garza (2013), and Price (2014) will be under contract/team control for several years to come. And while its widely accepted that these 4 will be immovable fixtures in the rotation, unfortunately the notion that Sonny and EJax are duking it out for the 5th spot is as well. The influx of casual fans has led to an overall dip in the knowledge of our farm system. Hellickson is due to jump a level any day now; as are Davis and McGee (although thats debatable), and we have a former first round pick waiting in AAA along with a Mitch Talbot who is flashing some brilliance that definitely warrants attention... You people think Sonny v. Jackson is the fight to watch? Psh. Thats just the undercard.  Wait for the Hellickson v. Davis v. McGee v. Niemann v. Talbot free-for-all.

Carl Crawford swings at the first pitch entirely too often. Smart.
Saying anything negative about Carl Crawford warrants public crucifixion. Dumb.


    That the casual side of our fanbase can be this damned touchy is what surprises me the most. That what's said during gamethreads can be taken so personally and without context is what disappoints me the most. CC is what he is: a speedy, athletic outfielder who has absolutely zero patience, a knack for swinging at the first pitch, and the tendency to get better during the second half of the season. Pointing out these things is far from heresy. Using statistics to point out these things is far from blasphemy. Telling a lifelong, diehard Rays fan he sucks for calling for improvement on this player's flaws is however, dumb.

Ken Griffey Jr. is a first ballot hall-of-famer. Smart.
Ken Griffey Jr. is an upgrade over what we have in RF. Dumb.


    When I first read that Griffey would waive his trade clause to be a Ray I thought to myself, "Well thats pretty damned flattering." Little did I know that stupid had flexed its grotesquely muscular arm on my favorite fansites and reasoning such as "it would put asses in the seats" and "Griffey is a much better player that Gabe Gross" would fuel heated debate on whether we should add another defensively inept, left handed bat to a 25-man roster that is arguably the most crowded in the league. The numbers have already been laid out there and not only do they ALL point to Gross being the better player this year, they ALL support the opinion that our mangled-ass RF/DH situation would actually be worse off if we gave Griffey a full-time job... So, please, guys, I agree that seeing childhood legends in Rays gear would be cool... but isn't that what MLB: The Show is here for?

...There's plenty more dumb to cover (like Rocco being one of the best hitters in the organization) but I think I'll leave it at this for today. Thanks for reading.

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Top Josh Paul Pornos- Big Navi Stroking, 2pitchers1cup, BJ to the Balls

BELIEVE in 08!

by SRQman on Jun 16, 2008 4:37 PM EDT   0 recs

OH Vin

were you the guy who had the link to the site where you could download all the prospects for the Show? I think it was you and was wondering if you have the link still?

Top Josh Paul Pornos- Big Navi Stroking, 2pitchers1cup, BJ to the Balls

BELIEVE in 08!

by SRQman on Jun 16, 2008 4:38 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Thanks man

I will play it once I get my PS3 back, it died. Off course I have a 360 since launch but my PS3 dies which is unheard of.

Top Josh Paul Pornos- Big Navi Stroking, 2pitchers1cup, BJ to the Balls

BELIEVE in 08!

by SRQman on Jun 16, 2008 4:46 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

honestly sonny isnt doing that bad

edwin is the one doing bad lately and sonny has 7 wins im not disappointed in sonny only hope that edwin turns it around and soon

by RaysOfHope on Jun 16, 2008 10:41 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

This man is better than me.

"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena

by R.J. Anderson on Jun 16, 2008 4:55 PM EDT   0 recs

Vin 08???

Top Josh Paul Pornos- Big Navi Stroking, 2pitchers1cup, BJ to the Balls

BELIEVE in 08!

by SRQman on Jun 16, 2008 4:56 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

What makes you think Patrick would be open to elections?

"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena

by R.J. Anderson on Jun 16, 2008 4:58 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

He would stomp me

I have a feeling Pat could talk Jessica Beil out of her undies.

Kid has the politician angle down like none other.

by Vin on Jun 16, 2008 5:06 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

He does

Which is why it’s going to be brilliant when one of his rants on this site costs him office one day.

"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena

by R.J. Anderson on Jun 16, 2008 5:10 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I haven't said anything THAT inflammatory

At least since one of my profane, anti-Red Sox fan rants a few years ago. But I figure that I’ll never lose New England in an election as one of DA LIBURULZ!!

by Patrick L. Kennedy on Jun 16, 2008 8:22 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

you were astute in the titling of this piece, it is chock full of dumb...

just kidding, but some of it is…

you are on the right path, but askew on some points.

1. the CC debate isn’t just the, “CC is awesome” vs “CC sucks” crowd, it’s a bit more complicated then that, and dumbing it down like you do does a disservice to the people that intelligently debated the subject over the past couple weeks. no one is “crucifying” people simply for saying that CC is having an off year, that much is obvious. it’s the people that spout on nonsense (i.e. Gabe Gross is better then CC, CC is a totally avg player, CC needs to bat 8th, etc…) that draw the ire of the NON-CASUAL fan.

and

2. Baldelli is one of the best hitters in the organization. that much is known to anyone who actually was a fan long enough to watch him play a full healthy year (was it that long ago). this is the man who drew comparisons, however warranted, to ted williams. unfortunately he could never stay healthy and show people what a truly gifted batter he actually is.

by davidsmarch on Jun 16, 2008 4:58 PM EDT   0 recs

. this is the man who drew comparisons, however warranted, to ted william

I recall DiMaggio comparisons, but not Ted Williams.

"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena

by R.J. Anderson on Jun 16, 2008 5:00 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

damnit, you are right,

give me an edit button!!!

by davidsmarch on Jun 16, 2008 5:00 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I can't even edit your comment.

"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena

by R.J. Anderson on Jun 16, 2008 5:01 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Which is unfortunate

cause it needs a LOT of editing.

by Vin on Jun 16, 2008 5:02 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I'm just foolin

I don’t mean to insult your opinions or call them wrong.

I just simply disagree with the Baldelli thing.

by Vin on Jun 16, 2008 5:04 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

i think it's debatable,

but i remember watching him in 2003, and man what a beautiful swing baldelli has when he’s totally healthy and has his timing down, really just smooth. i remember thinking the guy has easy 30hr potential, with over a .300 avg. we may never know, but i truly feel he’s got the swing for it.

by davidsmarch on Jun 16, 2008 5:06 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Swings can be lost.

Really. I don’t know how else to say it. Injuries and lack of playing time can obliterate every aspect of a guy’s ability to play the game.

by Vin on Jun 16, 2008 5:10 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

If nothing else

At least we have enough depth that we can actually argue about this.

"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena

by R.J. Anderson on Jun 16, 2008 5:15 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

i know you agree with me RJ,

even if others don’t remember it.

it’s not valid at this point to say “Rocco lost his swing”, b/c honestly nobody knows. we’ll have to wait and see what these past couple years have done to him, but i’m not one of those who thinks he can just “lose” his swing…

by davidsmarch on Jun 16, 2008 5:18 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Its not a definitive 'can" or "can't" issue,

I’m simply skeptical on whether he can show the form he had from, what, 3 years ago?

‘Cause that was the last time he was a serviceable ballplayer.

by Vin on Jun 16, 2008 5:22 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I don't know if he's still top ten or not

If he shows 2006 form? No doubt. Hopefully we’ll get a chance to see, but I’m not getting too excited about him quite yet.

"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena

by R.J. Anderson on Jun 16, 2008 5:29 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Which makes me want to pat you on the back

and punch everyone who said the NDRO was just like the old DRO in the face.

by Vin on Jun 16, 2008 5:19 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Patience was key.

"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena

by R.J. Anderson on Jun 16, 2008 5:30 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Swings aren't always lost

Look to Texas and Josh Hamilton to show you that time away from the game doesn’t always sap all the ability out of a player. Rocco certainly isn’t on Hamilton’s level, but if he could get that mitochondrial deal figured out, he could definitely start in RF or CF for us.

by jwgator on Jun 17, 2008 3:00 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

As for CC

I haven’t seen anyone say Carl is a totally average player or that he should bat 8th. This season Gross IS outperforming him, say it’s because he’s part of a platoon all you want, there’s dozens of players who should be platooning that aren’t.

"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena

by R.J. Anderson on Jun 16, 2008 5:03 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

it is b/c he is part of a platoon

you can’t fairly compare the numbers of an everyday player vs a specialty player. the platoon player SHOULD have better numbers, if he doesn’t then why the hell is he platooning?

by davidsmarch on Jun 16, 2008 5:04 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Because the manager sucks?

Gross is being used correctly and he’s doing his part. The hate for Gross is ridiculous.

"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena

by R.J. Anderson on Jun 16, 2008 5:06 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

i don't hate Gross, i've never spouted off anything negative about Gross, ever...

but that being said, you still cannot compare the two. Gross is a platoon player, put him in every day and his numbers would probably be very poor (yes, worse then CC’s).

by davidsmarch on Jun 16, 2008 5:07 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I didn't say you.

Generally speaking it seems like everyone wants to dump Gross.

I didn’t argue your point, I gave a reply to “Why the hell is he platooning?” Some managers are dumb.

"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena

by R.J. Anderson on Jun 16, 2008 5:09 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

i like Gross,

the people who want to dump him at this point are mostly idiots, don’t let them get to you. also, the “why the hell is he platooning” was redundant.

by davidsmarch on Jun 16, 2008 5:11 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

You've been around long enough...

You should know I always have to answer redundant questions.

"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena

by R.J. Anderson on Jun 16, 2008 5:12 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Nobody hates Gross

People are simply pointing out the deficiencies in Gross’ game just like you do with CC and Edwin. Pointing out that Gross cannot hit lefties is no difference than saying Edwin has trouble throwing strikes and CC has horrible discipline at the plate. Gross is under .100 career in hitting lefties. That my friends is not very good. That isn’t hate, it is just a fact. He even admitted it himself.

And as David said you just cannot compare numbers between platoon players and everyday players. Saying a platoon player has a higher ratio so he is a better player is highly misleading. As David astutely pointed out platoon players should have higher ratios since they are only playing in the scenarios that they succeed in.

Regarding the OP I disagree with the whole Griffey isn’t better than what we use in RF currently (Hinske/Gomes/Gross 3 headed monster). I’ll assume the main platoon from here on out is Gomes v LHP and Gross v RHP.

If Gomes hits lefties the nearly best he can and Gross hits righties the nearly best he can that would be essentially equal to Griffey. The ceiling is much higher with Griffey, and it is much safer to go that route. Now odds are the Gross/Gomes combo is probably the exact same production as Griffey. The rest of the year I think we get maybe .240 and a dozen more home runs out of RF whether its Gomes/Gross or Griffey. If I was a betting man that is what I’d go with. I don’t see the Gomes/Gross combination doing much, and I think Griffey is washed up (as you can see I want a different option such as Giles or Bradley). But the reward is much higher with Griffey and the risk is much lower with Griffey. With Griffey at least you have the potential for a big impact bat and with the Gomes/Gross combination there really isn’t that possibility. And higher reward with lower risk is always the better option.

by matthan on Jun 16, 2008 6:16 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

. Pointing out that Gross cannot hit lefties is no difference than saying Edwin has trouble throwing strikes and CC has horrible discipline at the plate

Given how he’s being used, hitting lefties isn’t a priority for Gross. It’s a flaw, but not a fatal one. A pitcher not throwing strikes or a hitter hacking are flaws, and the former is fatal.

"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena

by R.J. Anderson on Jun 16, 2008 6:20 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Gross' flaw is covered up, the other two cannot be.

"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena

by R.J. Anderson on Jun 16, 2008 6:21 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Sure I agree

My point is you can’t say Gross is a better player. Griffey is clearly the better player. That isn’t even close, and it is an absurd argument to say that Gross is better. Gross is good in his current role. I have no problem with you saying that. But when you talk about how good someone is as a player you have to look at the whole package. You just can’t pick and choose what he does well and ignore the rest when comparing the skills of two players. Gross not being able to hit lefties is a serious flaw in his game. There is just no way you can ignore that. If we was able to do what he does vs Righties then he would be a solid MLB. He would be an everyday player. But he just can’t, and that makes him a fringe MLB platoon player.

To sum up you just need to compare apples to apples. Either Gomes and Gross to Griffey or all of Griffey to all of Gross. You can’t do half of Gross to all of Griffey.

by matthan on Jun 16, 2008 6:28 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Our RF platoon has a higher OPS than Griffey Jr.

I pointed this out yesterday.

"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena

by R.J. Anderson on Jun 16, 2008 6:35 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I said two posts above that I believe the platoon and Griffey would end up with very similar numbers. I don’t disagree with anything you’ve said about the platoon.

Just do not say Gross is better than Griffey. I’ve just been pointing out that is false. If you mean the platoon then say the platoon. Don’t say Gross when you mean the platoon. Thats all.

by matthan on Jun 16, 2008 6:41 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Gross is better than Griffey

Because Griff would not platoon. Therefore, our defense in RF and our offense in RF would decline. While, Gross playing full time might not put up the offensive numbers Griff would, his defense and willingness to platoon make him more valuable. Griffey is arguabley the worst everyday player in all of baseball.

by rglass44 on Jun 17, 2008 10:34 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Why are you using batting average?

"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena

by R.J. Anderson on Jun 16, 2008 11:34 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Because it's one of the least important.

"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena

by R.J. Anderson on Jun 17, 2008 12:44 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

If.

"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena

by R.J. Anderson on Jun 17, 2008 1:01 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

well "if" he comes back who is going to be gone?

it will come down to trading hinske and cutting gross most likely

by RaysOfHope on Jun 17, 2008 1:06 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

The Rays are not

cutting Gross, certainly not to make room for Baldelli. They were pursuing him, and with good reason, even before the season started. In the role assigned him, he functions very well. Saying he is not a star or even a good regular is not a criticism; it is a recognition that his value lies elsewhere, but that value should not be underestimated.

Even should the Rays acquire a star right fielder, Gross would likely be the last player to go to make room. That would probably be the case even if the new player were a left-handed hitter and good fielder.

Just to be clear, I am in no way saying that Gross is a great player or even a particularly good one. Only that he is good in the specific role he has on this team, a role that would have to be filled even if the three outfield positions were manned by stars. It is a role that nobody else (Hinske, Gomes, Ruggiano, Baldelli, Floyd, Aybar) can fill and one that has to be filled.

by bobr on Jun 17, 2008 1:54 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I agree with bobr

wouldn’t it more likely come down to cutting or trading Gomes?? I mean they said that if Baldelli can make it back this year that he would be a DH anyways and not out in the field immediately. I could still see Hinske being moved since he actually has trade value and Gomes doesn’t, and he is a little more expendable with Aybar back and playing well as a utility man.

by usfraysfan on Jun 17, 2008 9:15 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

idk about moving gomes

he has been the best teammate this season and cutting or trading him wouldnt make that much sense so i say that we cash in chips on hinske

by RaysOfHope on Jun 17, 2008 11:09 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Does Hinske really have much trade value given the circumstances?

I doubt NL teams are lining up to put him in the field. So that leaves the AL. Given he’s not a prospect, only a trade to a contender makes much sense and if we’re contending, would we make a deal that could potentially help an opponent competing for a playoff spot?

Longlorious.

by RATW on Jun 26, 2008 3:53 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I think...

The level of intelligence of the overall fan base is inversely proportional to the number of people jumping on the bandwagon.

Do not think that what is hard for you to master is humanly impossible; but if a thing is humanly possible, consider it to be within your reach.

by Orlando Rays on Jun 16, 2008 5:04 PM EDT   0 recs

Rays fans for the most part are quite smart.

"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena

by R.J. Anderson on Jun 16, 2008 5:08 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Absolutely astounding

Great take. I agree that we are going to have to suffer through bandwagoners, just as longtime Bucs fans have had to go through it. However, it is a hardship that I am happy to bear as long as it means we are winning.

by usfraysfan on Jun 16, 2008 5:26 PM EDT   0 recs

Speaking of Smart Vs. Dumb...

Good job taking that ridiculous post “RAYS OUT TOO LATE” off the site. While it was fun bashing that guy, the fact that he named Rays and insinuated drug use was definitely DUMB.

Jamie DeLuca

by JDeLuca on Jun 16, 2008 5:34 PM EDT   0 recs

"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena

by R.J. Anderson on Jun 16, 2008 5:57 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I don't think he meant anything malicious by that post

I honestly think he thought he was just sharing useful information, though obviously it wasn’t a good idea to post. For us, it came down to the high volume of reader complaints as well as the liability that we take on for hosting said posts. I’m not saying what he posted was false; there is no way for me to know. However if any of that does turn out to be false, I don’t want us or SBN to be the victims of a libel lawsuit. Not like they’d get anything valuable out of R.J. and I anyways.

by Patrick L. Kennedy on Jun 16, 2008 8:29 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

We know they aren't getting anything valuable out of you...

"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena

by R.J. Anderson on Jun 17, 2008 1:46 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

As long as we agree.

"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena

by R.J. Anderson on Jun 17, 2008 10:15 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Wow, 1 hr and already 7 recs.

Thanks. This is the first thing I’ve written in a long time. I appreciate the good words.

You guys are the shit.

by Vin on Jun 16, 2008 5:39 PM EDT   0 recs

Thanks for taking the time to make good points that many of us wanted out there but were too lazy or didnt have the time to write

We also probably couldn’t have said it as well as you did.

By the way, you should check out raysindex.com real quick…they have a great take on Sonny and his issues lately.

by usfraysfan on Jun 16, 2008 5:54 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Rec'd

Nice article. Way to keep things in perspective.

by JMB on Jun 16, 2008 8:38 PM EDT