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Posturing or Legit? C.C. Sabathia Rumors Begin

Maddonbearlo3_tiny by R.J. Anderson on

From John Perrotto's Sunday column:

The Indians still haven’t declared themselves buyers or sellers in the trade market, but among the teams reportedly lining up to trade for left-hander C.C. Sabathia should he become available are the Yankees, Phillies, Cubs, Red Sox, Rays, and Angels.

We certainly have the pieces needed to grab Sabathia, the question comes down to A) is it worth it and B) can we re-sign him.

 

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What package would we have to put up for CC

the issue is he wouldn’t be long-term. CC would just be a short term player where we would lose because we give up a lot of prospects for. In turn those prospects blossom, then the Rays look really stupid.

But to see this through here is who I feel would be needed to get this deal done.

Ejax, Balfore, Ruggiano, Hellickson, Jasso

In the name of Sinji Mori, we shall win!

by thebaddancingraysfan on Jun 22, 2008 10:41 PM EDT   0 recs

I don't think....

Cleveland would even offer a negotiation window. They have to move him though because just getting 2 picks for him after the season isn’t worth it. Take 2-3 prospects who are already on their way to developing and let the receiving team get the 2 pick compensation if Sabathia doesn’t resign. Coming off a Cy Young last year and pitching the way he has since 5/1, there is no way we could resign him. He’s easily going to command 100m+ on the open market.

by Jason Collette on Jun 22, 2008 11:06 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

we don't need a negotiating window,

teams work simultaneously on deals and trades. you negotiate with the player with the teams permission, and make the trade contingent on coming to terms with the player. teams in all leagues do it all the time.

by davidsmarch on Jun 23, 2008 6:17 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

It is highly unlikely we give up that much for him unless they believe him to be a long-term answer

I still think a cheaper option like a Greg Maddux is more likely.

Blake
USF--Class of '09

by usfraysfan on Jun 22, 2008 10:51 PM EDT   0 recs

Would Maddux come here?

Maddux has made it clear that he loves living in CA and not many think he’d go to the AL. Anyone have any reason to think that he’d jump for the Rays?

by tallyray on Jun 22, 2008 10:59 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Not many were too keen on coming to Tampa before this season...

So I don’t know what all of their opinions are now. But, he would be a serviceable option in the rotation. Plus, he might be the only person that could get into Sonny’s freaking head and turn him around (While not his main purpose, it would certainly be nice).

Blake
USF--Class of '09

by usfraysfan on Jun 22, 2008 11:02 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Maddux has a terrible record against AL teams

He is something like 0-6 with a 5+ ERA in his interleague starts over the last three years.

by Jason Collette on Jun 22, 2008 11:04 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Well thats not good

however, I still think a cheaper option (like Maddux was an example of) is a more likely option than Two-Ton Sabathia.

Blake
USF--Class of '09

by usfraysfan on Jun 22, 2008 11:10 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

That's not much of a sample.

2008:
7 IP, 1 ER vs. DET
6 IP, 2 ER at CLE

Longlorious.

by RATW on Jun 22, 2008 11:11 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

If only those 2 teams were playoff teams

Against everyone else, he’s been raked

by Jason Collette on Jun 23, 2008 7:03 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Maddux vs. AL playoff teams in 2007:
6 IP, 2 ER vs. BOS

It’s all irrelevant.. either way, it’s an insignificant sample of 2-3 games per year.

Longlorious.

by RATW on Jun 23, 2008 2:08 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Trade for Harden, sign Barack Bonds

And this team is a lock for the playoffs. Not too mention might be the favorite. What would you give up for Harden? At least 2 of the crown jewels plus Jackson. I’m thinking Davis and Brignac.

by td32 on Jun 23, 2008 12:08 AM EDT   0 recs

Harden

Man he would fit nicely in our rotation. I wouldn’t wanna face Kazmir, Shields, Harden and Garza in the playoffs. His injurys are a concern though.

When would he be a FA?

I really would love to get fat fuck but that will be too expensive for 2 months.

by joeybw on Jun 23, 2008 12:29 AM EDT   0 recs

Harden is a FA in 2009...

Imagine a rotation of
Kaz
Shields
Harden
Garza
Sonny(Price in 2009)

Lineup
Upton
CC
Bonds
Pena
Longoria
Hinske
Navarro
Iwamura
Bartlett

All you’d have to do is trade a few propspects(which I loathe doing) for Harden, and tell the media to Fuck Off and sign one of the best hitters in the game(without having to give up prospects).

by td32 on Jun 23, 2008 12:39 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Couldn't we ask anybody we trade for to sign long-term as part of the deal?

Do not think that what is hard for you to master is humanly impossible; but if a thing is humanly possible, consider it to be within your reach.

by Orlando Rays on Jun 23, 2008 7:20 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Let's be honest....

Pitching isnt what’s gonna hold this team back. If they can continue to throw the way they have, that aspect is fine. The offense is just plain average. Now that can certainly change if CC can return to average territory, BJ can return to 2007 from, Pena can come even close to 2007 form, and Longoria can continue to improve.

But they need another difference make added to the offense. I know it is getting old, but for the love of everything Almighty, why wouldnt they sign Bonds. He would be inexpensive. Wouldnt cost prospects. Would add an ELITE bat. The guy is certainly a dick. But that never stopped the Giants from competing for a playoff spot every year he was healthy. Hell, he led them to within an inning or 2 of a World Series title. The media has brainwashed the public into believing Bonds is the only evil person to ever take steroids, and that he is a locker room cancer,

Think about it, this guy just wants a shot to play. He has no leverage. The team doesnt have to pamper this guy. He MUST be a team guy. Other then the negative media coverage, this is a no brainer.

Other then Bonds, any impact bat will cost prospects. WOuld you rather trade a Davis, Hellickson, or McGee to get anyone of substance? I’ll take Bonds every day of the week.

by td32 on Jun 23, 2008 12:52 AM EDT   0 recs

Barry Bonds died for baseball's sins

and we need to sign him!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111111111111111111oneoneoenoeneone

Top Josh Paul Pornos- Big Navi Stroking, 2pitchers1cup, BJ to the Balls

BELIEVE in 08!

by SRQman on Jun 23, 2008 1:10 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Overall our pitching is fine

We need a right-handed bat. Preferably to do the job in RF that we currently platoon for.

Do not think that what is hard for you to master is humanly impossible; but if a thing is humanly possible, consider it to be within your reach.

by Orlando Rays on Jun 23, 2008 7:21 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

no need to add pitching...

if we make a splash I’d take Matt Holliday if he’s okay in RF. Him behind Upton would be mighty nice. We can move Pena to 6th then also…

by PriceMultiCyYoungs on Jun 23, 2008 8:01 AM EDT   0 recs

Holliday is a Coors apparition.

Plus he’d be a rental, since it would take stupid money to re-sign him after 2009

by Top Gun Numba 1 on Jun 23, 2008 3:10 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

His 130 lifetime OPS+

disagrees with you. Looking at only his numbers on the road makes no sense. And having him for a full year next year works for me.

by LeftRight on Jun 23, 2008 4:07 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Why doesnt it make sense to look at his road splits?

He has played enough road games, and had enough AB’s to see how much of an overall impact playing at Coors has had on his overall stats.

by td32 on Jun 23, 2008 4:09 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

We are trying to project his stats in a Rays Jersey

Not just his stats on the road in a Rays jersey. Not very many players perform better offensively on the road for several reasons. Looking at his park adjusted stats is more relevant than just his away splits.

by LeftRight on Jun 23, 2008 4:13 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

It isn't the end all, be all of interpreting performance

But analyzing how he does on the road in facilities that are, on the whole, far more neutral makes quite a good deal of sense. Of course there are other factors at play when looking at his road numbers, and you are correct in saying that park-adjusted stats matter. I imagine that he would perform better than his road numbers if we were to acquire him, but he would certainly be not as good and given that, we have to judge how much he is worth.

Another factor, as was mentioned, is his contract. If we are going to trade for this guy, we must value him based on the chances that he will remain here beyond the 2009 season. If we can’t keep him at a contractual rate that reflects his real value, then his value to us diminishes.

by Patrick L. Kennedy on Jun 23, 2008 7:50 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Is .883 bad?

Jason Bay’s career OPS is .893. I would love to have either but Bay’s knee will be the difference.

by LeftRight on Jun 23, 2008 4:33 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Well, if he is the guy

hopefully our front office will negotiate that fact. I am not sold on him either, but I disagree with the way some people are isolating stats on here. And a .893 would be far and away our best offensive weapon this year. By the way, can you explain neutralizing career stats? Is this the same as OPS+? Thanks…

by LeftRight on Jun 23, 2008 4:56 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Precisely.

It’s not so much that Holliday isn’t good – it’s just that he’s not as good as his numbers suggest. Therefore, it’s difficult for the Rockies to justify trading him – they won’t get as much as they “should” because savvy front offices like the Rays are going to pay for the production he would provide in a Rays uniform, not the production he has produced in a Rockies uniform.

by Peter Bendix on Jun 23, 2008 5:12 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I wouldn’t give more than a few C prospects for Harden. The guy doesn’t play. Sabathia is more in line with what I’d like. But if he isn’t going to resign then I wouldn’t be willing to move some of our bigger prospects. Price? No. Brignac? No. Hellickson? I wouldn’t. Maybe one of Davis and McGee. Although I’d rather go with Edwin. Ruggiano. Then maybe one of Houser/Niemann/Talbot.

I’d give them a package of Edwin, Ruggiano, and Niemann. If that isn’t enough then so be it. No need to sell the farm for a rental.

The bigger need is a bat. Bonds would be ideal. But I’m okay going after a long term answer for RF or even a rental. Again if we are just renting a player I wouldn’t give anything close to our top prospects.

by matthan on Jun 23, 2008 8:35 AM EDT   0 recs

Dude.....

You need to be more realistic with the pitching trades. Harden for a few C prospects? Edwin, Ruggiano, and Niemann for Sabathia? First of all, I understand your point about Harden being healthy, but he has another year of service time available. Ypu’d have to give up more to get him the you would for Sabathia. And in order to get Sabathia, you would have to include Davis or McGee.

What about a trade for Giles and Maddux. Probably wouldnt have to give up a ton. First, it would improve our starting pitching a bit. Second, think of the impact for our young starters to be around Maddux…especially down the line.

I know he is a Lefty, but I think Giles would be an improvement at the dish for the Rays.

by td32 on Jun 23, 2008 9:29 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

RJ, do you think...

The Rays would have to give up an of their elite talent for a Maddux/Giles trade? I could see them taking a combination of NIemann, Ruggiano, and a C level prospect. I could be way off on that, but both those guys are getting up there in years. Niemann could pitch for them immediately, and Ruggiano probably could as well.

by td32 on Jun 23, 2008 9:37 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I don’t like Harden at all. The most I’d give up are a few C listers.

2003 74IP
2004 189IP
2005 128IP
2006 46IP
2007 25IP
2008 59IP

I’m sorry the guy just can’t stay healthy. I don’t care how talented you are if you are chronically injured. Look at Rocco Baldelli

And I did say I’d give Davis or McGee. I’d just start with Jackson/Ruggiano/Niemann and then replace Jackson with Davis or Mcgee. But again I don’t like renting players. If we were able to sign him long term the offer would go up. Heck I wouldn’t be against giving them both if we were able to sign Sabathia long term.

I am just highly against giving up highly rated prospects to rent players. It just never works and rarely results in a championship. It is not worth it.

Regarding Maddux and Giles they wouldn’t be my first choice. I’d be more open to Giles than Maddux. Honestly I’d rather we go after a bigger impact bat and arm that would be a more long term answer. I’d rather have Giles than Maddux though. But I wouldn’t be against getting both as long as it didn’t cost us much, but I do think those prospects could be better used to pick up a young hitter that can play RF for years.

There are numerous teams that have young impact players in the OF that are hurting for pitching. We could target one of them and pick up a long term solution in RF. We have the pitching prospects and Jennings to use as bait. Impact pitchers are all just going to be rentals for the most part. As stated I’m not the biggest fan, but I wouldn’t be against getting a Maddux or a Lowe for this year and also picking up a Matt Kemp/Corey Hart type while sending a Davis/Jennings/??? type package for that player.

by matthan on Jun 23, 2008 9:56 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Trading Jennings would make me equally sad

He’s CC”s replacement in 2 years

by td32 on Jun 23, 2008 10:03 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I'm hoping if we made a trade like the one mentioned that we would be able to lock up CC and BJ for awhile

That would give us a Hart/Kemp, Upton, and CC outfield for next half decade at least. In that case we wouldn’t need Jennings.

by matthan on Jun 23, 2008 10:05 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I wouldnt trade Jennings...

Have you seen that kids production? I kow he is only in A ball, but he is one of the few kids drafted because of their athleticism that actually learn how to play the game. He is PATIENT, can hit, run the bases, and play great D. He is CC, but knows how to take a pitch and work the count. Granted, he is only in high A ball, but if he continues hhis progression, he could be an elite player.

Keith Law, who knows what he is talking about, has Jennings as one of the elite position players in all of minor league baseball.

by td32 on Jun 23, 2008 11:38 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Just say no to Maddux

Not much of an upgrade over what we throw out there now. As is well documented, hitting has been our problem.

by davelrogers on Jun 23, 2008 9:37 AM EDT   0 recs

I'd tend to agree with respect we dont need to give anything good for Maddux...

As mentioned above, we need a thunderous bat. Unfortunately there is only one available that wont cost a ton.

by td32 on Jun 23, 2008 9:51 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

We can't trade for CC unless we plan to open the wallets

Because the outcome will be…

In 2009

Indians: Getting ready to debut Davis, Brignac and another top spect
Yankees/Red Sox: Put C.C Sabathia in front of their rotation and he kills the Rays regularly during the season.
Rays: Supplemental picks: Dunno how good the odds are that these pics with become top prospects.

Yankees/Red Sox or maybe Mets get CC either way, no reason to help the Indians also. No way we are giving ANYONE over 100 mil which is what CC will get.

Harden is wayyyy too injury prone. Bedard might be a good option because the new GM might make him cheap.

Ben Sheets is my fav but again have to worry about injurys

by joeybw on Jun 23, 2008 10:11 AM EDT   0 recs

also

If we put Sabathia/Harden/Sheets or Bedard in the rotation we also move Sonnastine/Jackson to the bullpen where I think they will actually do very well.

That was a lot to write just to say that we should be looking at an impact bat, not SP. If we got both and still have David Price, it would be hard for me to be upset.

by joeybw on Jun 23, 2008 10:15 AM EDT   0 recs

I wonder if the Royals would be open to trading Grienke

They won’t be competiting for a few more years and by then he will be gone. Plus they have quite a few needs

by matthan on Jun 23, 2008 10:16 AM EDT   0 recs

I hear they actually would move Grienke

But want an MLB ready young bat. Unless they like Fernando Perez a lot, we aren’t too stocked on those.

by joeybw on Jun 23, 2008 10:20 AM EDT   0 recs

I hear their SS

is OPSing in the sub 400 range. They might be open to a close to big league ready SS we have.

Tools Whore

Sign Bonds!

by Tyler on Jun 23, 2008 3:55 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I would give up Brignac and Niemann....

In a nanosecond for Greinke. You could throw in EJ or Sonny as well. Greinke is a legitimate young stud.

by td32 on Jun 23, 2008 5:17 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Any time you’d make a trade in a nanosecond, it’s almost certain that the other team won’t do it…

Although I agree, that’d be a fantastic deal for the Rays.

by Peter Bendix on Jun 23, 2008 5:30 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

JBay

Doesn’t he make the most sense for the Rays? It’s looking more and more like last season was a fluke/he was hurt, and he is under contract for $7.5 mil for next season.

I think, if you’re the Rays front office, you have to work with the understanding that this year’s team is likely going to be the worst Rays team from 2007-2010 (and perhaps beyond). Therefore, you should certainly make moves to improve this year’s squad (especially because the Yankees are having a down year), but I think it’s not a good idea to A) trade for ANYONE who’s a 2007-only rental, and B) give up any top-flight prospects (unless some crazy deal for someone like Matt Kemp comes along).

by Peter Bendix on Jun 23, 2008 10:25 AM EDT   0 recs

Hmm, the year is 2008, isn’t it?

by Peter Bendix on Jun 23, 2008 10:35 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

A lot.

I’d guess at least one of Davis, McGee, Jennings, and probably Niemann and someone else too…

by Peter Bendix on Jun 23, 2008 10:59 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

He’s really good, he’s affordable, it’s a seller’s market, and the Pirates don’t have to trade him…

by Peter Bendix on Jun 23, 2008 11:21 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Milton Bradley

He’s on the block. I know we recently got rid of the 2 asshole OF’s with talent but the guy is in a contact year and is showing how much he wants a big deal. He would be a massive boost for us this year and 1 guy we would be retarded to resign

by joeybw on Jun 23, 2008 10:39 AM EDT   0 recs

I would take Milton Bradley in a heartbeat....

In fact, I thought he was a solid option before the year started. He’s not the asshole DY was. In fact, from what I hear, most of his teammates like him. He is somewhat insane, which leads to his blowups. He plays with passion though. He plays hard. And he absolutely rakes. I find it hard to believe the Rangers would let him go….WHat’s his contract status?

If he isnt a FA until at least after 2009, then I would definitely be willing to part with one of our prized prospects for him.

by td32 on Jun 23, 2008 11:08 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Not to be a downer, but...

The number of games that Bradley has appeared in, starting with last season:

61
96
75
141
101
98
67

The guy’s great when healthy, but is it worth trading a lot for someone with such an extensive injury record?

by Peter Bendix on Jun 23, 2008 11:12 AM EDT