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6/9: News & Notes

YET ANOTHER BRAWL:

The mound and dugout altercations between RHP Matt Garza and C Dioner Navarro during yesterday's 6-3 loss to the Rangers got their spin in the morning papers today. The information you'll get from the involved parties and Manager Joe Maddon is something to the effect of how the two players are fierce competitors who got caught up in the heat of the moment, and that the issue will be handled "in-house". Should you believe that this incident is no big deal? You are well within your rights to think otherwise, but the Rays are 100% correct in keeping you ignorant. Regardless of what the "truth" is here, the aftermath is nothing that needs to be paraded about in the media. It was embarrassing enough to see the incident itself occur in such a conspicuous setting, and the Rays are right in stemming the tide of information leaking outward about this going forward.

Listen, regardless of the specificities of the incident, we can gather that Navarro is not a culpable party, at least in any meaningful sense. First of all, he doesn't have any sort of track record that would indicate that he works poorly with his pitchers. Secondly, Maddon all but indemnified him from blame in the matter in his postgame remarks. Can't get much more explicit than that, at least as far as stuff like this goes.

So that leaves us to this conclusion: Garza needs to grow up. This isn't the first time he's been held captive by his hot temper on the mound, certainly not if you include his days in the Minnesota Twins organization. This is a problem that has been ongoing throughout his development, and that it is continuing now without seemingly any improvement over the years is discouraging. I'm going to go ahead and speculate that perhaps Navarro didn't handle Garza well following 3B German Duran's home run. That's obviously something he needs to work on as a catcher, adjusting to the mental temperaments of his battery mates, but this is by no means laying the blame on him. He obviously should facilitate a productive relationship with whomever he is catching, but Navarro can't be a full-blown psychologist. There are some issues greater than even he can address at play here, and it is Garza's responsibility to get a grip. Lasting immaturity is guaranteed to hinder his advancement, and there is a sense of personal responsibility in that he needs to take care of matters himself. As it is, given that he is a valuable commodity in the organization, the team inevitably will have to step in to facilitate a lasting improvement in that regard.

While we're at it, the zealots calling for Garza's head need to cool it as well. It would be the pinnacle of absurdity for the team to give up on Garza at this point and try and deal him, or worse. It's not even a particularly good idea to demote him. I've never been a big fan of his, but for the love of all things holy, he isn't even old enough to legally rent a car yet. Is his maturity behind where it should be? Obviously. But the problem is just that, immaturity and the inability to exercise self-control. This isn't some inoperable character flaw that is bound to keep perpetuating itself; it can be mitigated given time and proactivity from all of the involved parties. His peripherals have been unsatisfactory thus far, but his performance to date has been very much in line with that of RHP Andy Sonnanstine and RHP Edwin Jackson, and over the long haul it will improve. Give him time, both on the field and off.

DIFFICULT DECISION?

Both RaysBaseball.com and the Tampa Tribune ran blurbs (an entire story in the team website's case) painting the impending decision of who will be replaced upon the return of RHP Troy Percival to be a "tough choice". Of the present bullpen personnel, only RHP Grant Balfour is mentioned as a potential target to be jettisoned, in both pieces.

The nature of both pieces is cocerning to me, if only because of the conspicuous lack of "Gary Glover" on the chopping block. He should definitely be placed on the hot seat, and there is absolutely no valid reason for Glover to be given an unquestioned pass at a detriment to Balfour when he hasn't been appreciably better. I will be exceedingly disappointed if the implications in this article prove to be true. His success in Boston notwithstanding, Glover has been the weak link in the bullpen since RHP Scott Dohmann was jettisoned, and probably before that as well. The "long relief/mopup" benefit that he brought to the table last year isn't even a factor anymore either, since the team has RHP Jason Hammel for those situations. Now granted, Hammel hasn't been particularly effective, but there's no way a young pitcher like Hammel gets exposed to waivers.

The presence of Hammel does sort of add an interesting wrinkle to this situation though. I would not be surprised if Executive VP Andrew Friedman were burning up the phones inquiring to see if there is any interest around the league in Hammel. Obviously if he's here, there's no way he will get the ax in lieu of Glover or Balfour, but the Rays may just opt to skip that decision altogether and see what value they can get for Hammel. Granted, they might need him for a spot start soon due to the brawl suspensions, but that's nothing that RHP Jeff Niemann can't take care of, given that he has options left. With Hammel proving ineffective in the bullpen, and no rotation spots expected to be open for him in the near-term, Hammel's career could be at a dead end here that the Rays might be wise to try and navigate out of.

ELSEWHERE:

Both papers are reporting that DH Cliff Floyd has been kept out of the lineup for the past two days due to no health issue, but rather an overarching desire to keep hot-hitting Willy Aybar in the starting lineup. With the Rays facing Angels lefty Joe Saunders this evening in Anaheim, Floyd will get his third straight day off. He is expecting to be in the starting lineup tomorrow night.

Meanwhile, the Rays' swing through Anaheim brings an annual slew of re-unions for numerous personnel on both sides. For the first time, that will include Percival, who last pitched at Angel Stadium when he threw out the first pitch at the Angels' home opener last year. Though not active, he will throw a simulated inning either today or tomorrow in Anaheim as he continues his recovery process.

Lastly, here are the previously-undisclosed fines that MLB doled out to Rays players for their involvement in Thursday's bench-clearing brawl in Boston:

The going rate seemed to be $500 for each suspended game as Jonny Gomes and James Shields (who got a slight discount) were fined $2,500, LF Carl Crawford and Jackson and $2,000 and Akinori Iwamura around $1,500.

 

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I don't agree

Navvy clearly showed up Garza. There is no other way to describe it. Garza may or may not haved deserved what he got but NOT OUT THERE.

RJ is not an elitist douchebag who hates scouting

by ttnorm on Jun 9, 2008 8:02 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

thank you

why does nobody else see that Navi was the instigator on the mound. Navi was the one that came out to the mound yelling at Garza and getting in his face. Garza just kept saying “I got you” over and over. Garza wouldn’t look at Navi. Navi may have had a legit beef, but the mound is not the place to scream at Garza. save it for the dugout.

by The Professor on Jun 9, 2008 10:37 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

why does nobody else see that Navi was the instigator on the mound?

Because we’ve never seen that kind of behavior out of Navarro.

On the other hand, we’ve already seen Garza melt down on the mound emotionally once this year, and he’s done it before in Minnesota. In addition to that, Maddon more or less pinned this whole thing on him with his comments after the game.

It’s hard to outrun track record.

by kericr on Jun 9, 2008 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think

Patrick is exactly right about Garza. I am not happy with his performance so far, but it is not awful and his talent, overall career and status as a prospect give promise for future success. Lots of players have overcome immaturity and over-emotional responses.

by bobr on Jun 9, 2008 9:01 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

We're not get ridding of Garza.

"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena

by R.J. Anderson on Jun 9, 2008 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Getting rid of Garza would be a GIGANTIC over-reaction

Garza does need to grow up, but nothing except MLB playing time is going to fix that. Did the Cubs DFA Carlos Zambrano because of his emotional issues? No.

by JMB on Jun 9, 2008 5:54 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

To be fair...

Carlos Zambrano has a career 131 ERA+, that’s higher than anyone in our rotation.

"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena

by R.J. Anderson on Jun 9, 2008 6:02 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Reminds me of old times

The only other time I remember a disagreement between a pitcher and a catcher that got this vivid for the Rays was way back in their history when Larry Rothchild was still coaching. I don’t remember all of the parameters, but it kinda went something like this.

Catcher at the time (Mike DiFelice) was attempting to get the pitcher to throw a certain pitch. The pitcher didn’t want to throw the pitch and kept shaking it off. DiFelice called for time, headed into the mound and the pitcher and catcher proceeded to have one of the goofiest looking shouting matches I’ve ever seen, as they were both covering their mouths with their gloves but yelling at each other the same time. Larry Rothchild proceeded to come out to the mound and immediately pull the pitcher, who promply had his ass railroaded back to AAA after the game, and I’m sure was never seen again.

I remember the game was a Devil Rays blowout loss at home. I do not remember the opponent, the final score, or the pitcher in question, but I think he might have been a reliever at the time.

Anybody remember the pitchers name or any other parameters?

by kericr on Jun 9, 2008 9:50 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I really started following the team in '01

So I don’t remember too much before that. Interesting story though, and it definitely doesn’t surprise me.

by Patrick L. Kennedy on Jun 9, 2008 7:41 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Garza

Two thoughts:

Garza was an idiot for shaking Navi off twice to try to throw some cheese. Everybody and their mother knew what was coming.

Garza reminds me a lot of Zambrano. His fiery attitude won’t seem like quite as big of a deal when he’s pitching well. That kind of competitiveness can be like fire in his belly once he starts to figure out what he’s doing out there a little better. I am a huge Garza fan, but he needs to have more faith in his teammates and follow his catcher’s lead.

by rglass44 on Jun 9, 2008 10:12 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

watch more closely.

I will agree that Garza was shaking off a little too much yesterday but go back and watch the replay of the home run. Navi looks to the dugout for the sign and then he very subtly shakes his own head. THEN Garza “shook off the pitch”. Navi hadn’t even given the sign yet. In other words, Navi WANTED Garza to shake him off. Sometimes a catcher wants a pitcher to shake him off to keep a batter from sitting on one pitch.

by The Professor on Jun 9, 2008 10:35 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

garza will be just fine

im from minnesota and the twins organization was way too picky with garza the last couple of years all they wanted him to do was throw off speed pitches, but all he really needs to do is mix all of his pitches together and he will be dominant just like when he had ten K’s in 8 innings last week

by RaysOfHope on Jun 9, 2008 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I just wanted to say...

That any talk of trading Garza, or as in the GDT, DFA’ing him is complete garbage. The guy has talent coming out of his ears and just needs to harness it. We have been patient with EdWIN, and it appears that the flashes of brilliance are more frequent this year. Garza sits at 94 with good breaking stuff (When he decides to throw it). Right now he is still a thrower, but with time and experience I could see him being a solid number 2. Would anyone want to face him in a playoff game once he is able to channel that energy into his pitches? I think Mr. Glass is right on in his assessment. Zambrano is the kind of guy that makes you shake your head at times, but he also makes you say did you see that. Navi is as much to blame so hopefully these guys put it behind them and Garza gives us another 7 inning, 10K performance soon.

Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind.

by Sandy Kazmir on Jun 9, 2008 11:58 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I’m still waiting for Garza to go Kelly Pavlik on a water cooler.

by kericr on Jun 9, 2008 12:06 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

He shouldn't be DFA, that's just silly.

We didn’t DFA Kazmir when he was pouting last year.

"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena

by R.J. Anderson on Jun 9, 2008 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hammel

but there’s no way a young pitcher like Hammel gets exposed to waivers.

Why not? Maybe I am alone here, but this guy has shown very few signs of being succesful in the bigs, and is wasting a spot on the roster. I understand that he is young and we need something in return, etc., but we need to win now as well as the future and there are guys ready to take his spot like Salas or Thayer. I am sure the reason we cant move him is because every other team sees what it is – this guy sucks. Gary Glover is actually better than he is!

by LeftRight on Jun 9, 2008 1:39 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Hammel was passable in the rotation until his last start

And during his brief month as a starter, I saw some potential. It is all about value; Hammel has it and we don’t want to lose it unnecessarily. Right now, his performance alongside Gary Glover is a wash, but Glover is older and his service time with the organization expires following the conclusion of the season.

by Patrick L. Kennedy on Jun 9, 2008 7:52 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hammel lost his command during that last start.

"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena

by R.J. Anderson on Jun 9, 2008 7:55 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I am having trouble

remembering the last time Hammell did anything well. Maybe one stint in the Oakland series but that is it. Please explain the “value” Hammell has, and explain why Glover’s perfomance beside his is a “wash.” Glover has been better – actually much better, which is saying something. It’s time we put the best product on the field and cut ties with this guy. I know it hurts, but the only thing we are getting for him is a “player to be named later.”

by LeftRight on Jun 9, 2008 8:01 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Glover has been much better?

Please do explain this.

"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena

by R.J. Anderson on Jun 9, 2008 8:04 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Off the top of my head

his era is a full run lower

by LeftRight on Jun 9, 2008 8:09 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

ERA is not a good prognosticator of future performance

And that’s what it comes down to. He will regress, and he will regress soon. This is something that you can glean not only from looking at his peripheral statistics, but also from watching him pitch at all. It is evident to anyone with just one eye open, and probably to the visually-impaired as well. To cut loose Jason Hammel over him would be a ridiculous move. Glover hasn’t been “much better” at all. He can’t go multiple inning like Hammel can, he’s performing about as well in shorter stints, he’s older, he costs more, and he is not under team control past this season? Do you not place any importance in these other factors?

by Patrick L. Kennedy on Jun 9, 2008 8:13 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

That does not mean he's better.

Look at the peripherals:
Hammel 5.4 K/9 4.57 BB/9 1.8 B/IP
Glover 5.66 K/9 5.23 BB/9 1.5 B/IP and an abnormally low HR/FB% for his career that will almost certainly jump up.

The difference is that A) Hammel is younger and B) Glover is making 1.075 this year, Hammel around 400k.

"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena

by R.J. Anderson on Jun 9, 2008 8:16 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Please dont make me defend Glover

He sucks – but Hammell sucks more. I will leave it up to you guys to put up the peripherals, but I can tell Hammell sucks by watching him as well – he is always flustered and never seems to have command. The fact that he can go for more innings only means that we need a long reliever to replace him – not that we should cut Glover over him. And Glover has made two appearances in June – both 2 innings, both 1 hit, and both 0 runs – both against the Red Sox. In April his era was 1.69, and I understand this is not the greatest barring of future performance, but it is pretty good. Personally I would rather cut both of them, but if I had to choose one it would be Hammel. And no, I really dont care if he is young and cheap, because he blows. There are plenty of guys in our system that are young and cheap, and I would rather win.

by LeftRight on Jun 9, 2008 8:23 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Brian Meadows once threwperfect innings in two straight games against the Yankees.

"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena

by R.J. Anderson on Jun 9, 2008 8:30 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I can understand the

impatience of fans of some teams, but it continually amazes me that Rays fans do not learn the lesson. To dismiss Hammel, age 25 with 172.3 IP in the majors over 3 partial years, is lunacy. The very essence & hallmark of this team is patience; that is what finally seems to be paying off, and yet we get the same quick dismissals of players by fans. Navarro stinks, drop him. Upton can’t adjust to the majors, drop him. Howell can’t get anyone out with his 84 mph fastball, drop him. Iwamura can’t hit leadoff, drop him down in the lineup. Bartlett made 4 quick errors, what a dumb trade.

Everyone looks bad to the naked eye when they are doing poorly, and frankly, I don’t have a ton of confidence in Hammel either. But we know what Glover is and what his ceiling is, and it is not pretty. We cannot know that about Hammel, who mediocre (or worse) as he has been, has similar statistics after the same time in the majors that Howell had. In fact, small sample alert necessary, I know, Hammel has actually improved in each of his 3 short major league stints.

To make the comparison more fully, after 3 separate partial seasons and 172.3 IP, Hammel has a 6.27 ERA. Howell’s, after 3 partial seasons and 166 IP had a 6.34 ERA. Hammel has given up 210 hits, 25 HRs, 83 BBs & 122 Ks. In his 166 IP, Howell gave up 194 hits, 21 HRs, 74 BBs and 136 Ks, hardly a significant difference.

The Rays do not simply cut talent loose if they can avoid it. Hammel may indeed never be a useful pitcher, but between him and Glover, there is no legitimate argument against giving Jason the benefit of the doubt.

by bobr on Jun 9, 2008 10:18 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Most fans are temperamental, which can be unfortunate given the longevity of the season.

"I've seen many, many blue skies turn gray, but the sun will eventually return, and so will I. So will I." - Carlos Pena

by R.J. Anderson on Jun 10, 2008 1:07 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yes, it is another example

of the foolishness of categorizing fans according to what teams they root for or the areas they come from. We Rays fans should, if anyone should, recognize such factors as small sample size, the need for patience, the erratic nature of young players, the responsibility to respect other teams and so on, and many do, but not as far as I can tell in any greater proportion than fans of any team do. Guaranteed, once we have won the World Series and then 2 or 3 more in quick succession, Rays fans will be perceived as just as obnoxious as Yankee and Red Sox fans are now.

“Men make history, but not in circumstances they themselves choose”

by bobr on Jun 10, 2008 6:13 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

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