When is the Question also the Answer?
I decided to run positional averages using GPA between the AL average and the Rays average, meaning at shortstop I'm including Jason Bartlett, Ben Zobrist, and even Evan Longoria's one game there. Same for the other positions, essentially we're just trying to see what needs help, is it right field like people have been suggesting, or is it the designated hitter position? First base perhaps?
Let's start with the GPA analysis, the formula is ((OBP*1.8)+SLG)/4. Here's the numbers:
| POS | OBP | SLG | GPA | Rays | OBP | SLG |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| C | 0.326 | 0.394 | 0.245 | 0.264 | 0.354 | 0.417 |
| 1B | 0.345 | 0.426 | 0.262 | 0.272 | 0.347 | 0.462 |
| 2B | 0.342 | 0.410 | 0.256 | 0.254 | 0.354 | 0.378 |
| 3B | 0.339 | 0.428 | 0.260 | 0.289 | 0.353 | 0.521 |
| SS | 0.311 | 0.365 | 0.231 | 0.211 | 0.288 | 0.324 |
| LF | 0.336 | 0.424 | 0.257 | 0.241 | 0.315 | 0.395 |
| CF | 0.332 | 0.411 | 0.252 | 0.262 | 0.373 | 0.377 |
| RF | 0.344 | 0.456 | 0.269 | 0.259 | 0.328 | 0.446 |
| DH | 0.333 | 0.416 | 0.254 | 0.230 | 0.298 | 0.383 |
For those who prefer graph form:
And for those who prefer rant form:
We see that there's no problem at catcher, first base, second base, third base, center field, and that's about it. Shortstop can be excused due to Bartlett's defense, but the corner outfield spots are disappointingly below average and most importantly the designated hitter slot is way beyond unacceptable. Naturally around this time of the year the idea of upgrading through a trade is desirable and often overrated to the point that most fans consider it a necessity to prove that the team really is a contender by acquiring some player who is more likely to tend to the psychology of the fans (and perhaps players) than make the difference.
The Rays are faced with a similar predicament between right field and the designated hitter. I'm throwing out left field because there's no reason to replace Carl Crawford or seemingly sell low. If Crawford's nightmare season continues -- the difference between Carl's expected BABIP (.320) and his real BABIP (.293) gives me hope it won't, or at least not to this point -- the Rays will at least have an above average fielding left fielder.
Back to the point: the Rays situation calls for upgrading one of the following: right field or designated hitter. That's it, the rest of the positions are fine. Here's what the team must decide; is the promise of progression worthy enough to defer on risks through the trade market? Cliff Floyd, Willy Aybar, and Jonny Gomes have been the mainstays at designated hitter lately, so what are we to expect from them going forward?
Gomes has been covered before. From last year Gomes walk rate has increased, his strikeout rate has plunged, but his line drive percent is sub-10%, which makes Gomes ability to maintain a good on-base percentage without an astronomical walk rate nearly impossible. Gomes IsoD (Isolated Discipline, or OBP-BA) is at a career high .224, reassuring the thought process that Gomes is walking enough, but simply not getting enough hits.
Floyd was brought in for his bat and not much else (read: marginal veteran presence upgrade), and despite the on-base percentage drop which would lead to the assumption he's not walking enough, Floyd is actually equal to his walk rate last season. Unfortunately Floyd's strikeout rate has increased, but there is a glimmer of hope. Floyd's LD% is a sturdy 17%, sturdy because that's seemingly his career norm, and yet his BABIP is only .268. If his IsoD would drop at least some of the extra weight, and Floyd's slugging got a few more hits added to it along with a few more times on base it's possibly he could come near his .795 OPS last season.
Finally we reach Aybar, everyone's new favorite goat, including Lady Luck. Aybar's 18.8 LD% should be met with a BABIP near .310, instead Aybar's BABIP is a pitiful .231. Granted Aybar does hit a ton of fly balls, and his numbers against right-handed pitchers are awful (only a .200 BABIP against righties) but this is not the real Willy Aybar we're seeing in the midst of some asinine streak of putrid hitting.
PrOPS, a statistic created by J.C. Bradbury, is used to predict future OPS using batted ball data. It's helpful in determining which hitters have been unlucky and which have been lucky, basically it's not the next step from LD% to BABIP, but the step after the next step. PrOPS confirms what we just established: each of our DHs are due for some improved results. Aybar's PrOPS is .789, Gomes' is .822, and Floyd's is .853. Yet when these progressions happen become the most important factor, it's possible, but heavily unlikely, that none of them progress until next season.
Assuming the Rays were to stand pat and faith decided to spit in the Rays face by having all three remain in urgent need of progression Andrew Friedman would face criticism as a general manager who doesn't strike when the opportunity is there. Which would be ironic, considering that's exactly how he's built this team. It's just as possible that Friedman could sit on his hands and watch the mean take its course.
There are a few other sides to the idea of acquiring a player solely for right fielding and designated hitting. Free talent that can DH is almost always available, look at Nelson Cruz in the Texas Rangers' farm system, he very well could be the next Jack Cust. Plucking Cruz could either be a disaster or a stroke of brilliance depending on how Cruz performed in the final 50+ games. The same could be said if two-thirds or all of the current DH stable progress, stories would be written about how Joe Maddon's fiery speech awoke them or how Floyd's veteran presence brought them to the point of stepping up.
No matter what the Rays decide to do over the next three days questions will fly at season's end, let's just hope one of them is asking where the parade is being held.
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I will show up for a Rays game and let someone shave my head bald if we trade for Nelson Cruz
I have been crying for this for 2 months now. He can play RF, has a great throwing arm, and can mash lefties – 3 things nobody on this roster can do.
Cruz is not even on the 40 man roster for the Rangers and can leave Texas after this year as a 6 year minor league free agent if he is not put on the 40 man so the price cannot be as high as it would be for a younger player with his production. Cruz by himself can do what Hinske/Gomes/Gross currently do collectively.
by Jason Collette on Jul 28, 2008 12:46 PM EDT reply actions
I say this as an outside observer
In the media the sentiment seems to be that the Rays need arms; but on paper, the pen looks fine forward. Is the problem with how they are being leveraged?
I’d want the Rays to acquire a guy who can push those runners around the bases (Bay, Teixeira) more so than a reliever.
The pen needs 1 or 2 more quality arms....
The back end is strong with Howell, Balfour, Wheeler, and (GOd help us) Percy….. But Reyes, Glover, and Hammel arent helping this team. Their lack of ability will thrust a lot of innings on the good pitchers, and we dont want them to get overworked to the point it hurts their performance. I DO NOT want to trade for a reliever…unless we can get them for an excellent bargain. There are enough guys that are in house that would be an upgrade over the crap part of the pen. Price is the obvious one, Salas, and even Dohman.
But I agree, a bat is needed badly, but it needs to be an impact middle of the order bat.
Realistically
You have three plus arms, and another decent one in Wheeler, that’s more than what most teams have. I understand that the Rays would like some Percy insurance, but it seems less pressing compared with adding another player to the lineup.
Revenge of '96: STOP THE CHOP
by JI on Jul 28, 2008 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree...
And as I said above, we can improve the pen with in house solutions. I think the expanded rosters will help the Rays more then any other team. There are so many guys in AAA that can help this team out of the bullpen. Salas, Dohman, Price….and even Davis. Then you throw in guys like Mason, Talbot, and Niemann.
Not all of those guys can be expected to do well, but I think a majority of them can do better the Hamme;, GLover, and Reyes have. Not only that, but it could help reduce the work load for our core bullpen guys.
unless you really believe balfour is completely for real, the Rays don't have a bullpen ace
Howell has the lowest xFIP, at about 3.50. Wheeler and Percy are over 4.00.
With the Braves plummeting out of the NL East race...
What do you think the price of Tex would be? If it is Niemann and a #8-10 prospect, I would be inclined to do it. You’ll get 2 compensation picks and a huge bat. Tex can play 1st, while Pena is DH…and Pena could spell him a couple times a week.
Then trade a low level guy for Cruz….or we can just hope these guys “luck” turns around.
SOmething like Davis and a small piece for tex and Ohman
"I'm like a retarded Adam Dunn mixed with Jason Bartlett" - R.J. Anderson
Ohamn isn't a rental though
I think that would make the deal somewhat tolerable. He has another year left. I’d trade Davis for a couple months of Tex, a year and a couple months of Ohman and a couple of first-round picks. Then again, that almost seems like a ripoff in favor of the Rays.
Vogt early, Vogt often.
Are you sure Ohman has another year left?
Per Cots he was at 5.027 entering this season.
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 28, 2008 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions
He wasn't ranked last year
So I’m guessing at most B status, but even that is highly unlikely.
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 28, 2008 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Brick, what do you project Davis as in the Bigs?
A solid #2? I know it is tough to say, but he has dominated everywhere he has pitched, outside a couple months in AA. He is pitching great in AAA and is still very young.
I understand where you are coming from, but I think that would be a fair trade if the Braves get a legit, future #2…even a #3 they have control of for a number of years. We would have to throw in another player along with Davis…
At this point
Somewhere between a #2 and a #4, probably towards the lower end of that.
The one player Davis reminds me of the most, both in terms of stuff and minor league track record, is Doug Waechter. Obviously that’s a bad case scenario, but they’re very similar. Main difference is that Davis’s K rate had been higher in the minors, but that changed this year.
Vogt early, Vogt often.
K rate is perhaps the most important stat for pitching prospects.
So saying that Wade Davis reminds you of Doug Waechter with a better K rate is like saying that Wade Davis reminds of you of Doug Waechter…only better.
by Peter Bendix on Jul 28, 2008 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes but
As you may have noticed, Davis’s K rate dropped to Waechter levels this year. And it’s not like his K rate has been SIGNIFICANTLY better than Waechters. Davis averaged about 10/9 through A+, Waechter averaged 9/9. Davis averaged about 6.5/9 in AA, Waechter averaged about 5.5/9.
And in case you hadn’t noticed, a little better than Doug Waechter still sucks.
IMO, Hit rate is the most important stat for pitching prospects. K rate is second.
All I’m saying is I think there’s a significantly higher chance of Davis flaming out than I think most people want to admit.
Vogt early, Vogt often.
I dont see a lot of similarities...
1st) Davis has better pure stuff. Better FB and better breaking pitch
2)Davis consistently averaged 1-2 more K’s/9 the Waechter and this year at the same level and age as Waechter is a 1K/9 higher then Waechter was
3)His Hit rate is slightly lower, and his walk rate is slightly higher.
Waechtr also gave up more HR’s per 9.
Up unitl this season, Davis has been VERY good. He is regarded by most as a Top 40 prospect, whereas I dont think Waechter ever was regarded inthat well. And as I mentioned above, there stuff isnt even close.
Davis could flame out. That is the nature of the beast. But comparing him to Waechter is a bit unfair
Brandon Webb posted similar numbers...
Doesnt mean they will be the same…
No he didn't
Way fewer similarities between Davis and Webb. And Webb also wasn’t as heralded of a prospect as Davis is.
Vogt early, Vogt often.
Not that far off in the last year
Davis has been 91-94 this year, same as Waechter before he got hurt.
Vogt early, Vogt often.
Unfortunately the Braves would want Price for that package.
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 28, 2008 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions
That's dumber than asking for Jackson.
Revenge of '96: STOP THE CHOP
by JI on Jul 28, 2008 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions
It is.
But that’s what the reality was.
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 28, 2008 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions
That is seriously one of the dumbest things I have ever heard...
That is worse then Kazmir for Zambrano. Price is a higher rated prospect then Kaz was at the time, and Kaz had some concerns to go along with him. PLus Zambrano wasnt even a rental. Obviously Zambrano isnt the player Tex is, but you are only getting 2 months of him. Maybe the Braves are asking for the world, and hoping to get just below it.
They want better than the compensation picks
I suppose aim high.
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 28, 2008 2:06 PM EDT up reply actions
You still pick up two-three years development even if you get 1st/2nd round equivalents.
It would be stupid not to move him if you get a good offer.
Revenge of '96: STOP THE CHOP
by JI on Jul 28, 2008 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions
I think Bay makes more sense
But yeah, you can let him walk and take the draft picks and accept that you are trading 2-3 years of development.
Revenge of '96: STOP THE CHOP
by JI on Jul 28, 2008 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Except for...
BEEE JAY UPTON CLAP CLAP CLAPCLAPCLAP
"I'm like a retarded Adam Dunn mixed with Jason Bartlett" - R.J. Anderson
You mean we have an outfielder with OBP AND SLG issues?
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 28, 2008 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Uhh...
Pena, Longoria seem to be doing quite fine.
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 28, 2008 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions
At last check both were above average in OPS w/RISP
In fact Pena’s OPS is nearly .900 with runners in scoring position.
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 28, 2008 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions
OBP sucks.
If everyone keeps getting on base no one will ever drive runners in.
by Peter Bendix on Jul 28, 2008 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions
so, what you're saying is,
that with guys on these two guys are good at:
1. walking
2. getting XBH an unsatisfactorally small amount of the time
meaning
they’re BA remains low, but their OPS becomes inflated, artifically telling people that they are doing alright, but all they’re really doing is nothing most of the time, with a few XBH’s mixed in to keep that OPS high.
...which is why you have to look at all stats.
Evan's OBP is .325, Pena's is .375
That OPS is telling you a helluva lot more than a batting average. A single to left field that Navarro doesn’t score on is counted the same as a double to the right field gap that clears the bases. At least SLG weighs the hit types a bit, if not perfectly.
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 28, 2008 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm all for non-sensical posts...
And as such, I enjoy this post.
Look, the key to baseball is not making outs. OBP measures the percentage of times a guy doesn’t make outs. OPS can never be “inflated” – it is what it is, a measurement of OBP and SLG.
BA measures part of a hitter’s ability to not make outs. But OBP measures this entire ability. Thus, BA is practically worthless.
Furthermore, SLG measures extra base hits. So the more extra base hits a batter gets, the higher his SLG. And the higher his SLG, the higher his OPS. Or, the more “inflated” his OPS.
SLG matters. So does OBP. OBP matters more. BJ Upton has a very good OBP, meaning he helps the Rays score runs. If his SLG was higher, he’d help them score more runs. Same goes for his OBP. No one is arguing that BJ has been incredibly amazing. They are simply saying that he has provided a lot of production that he does not seem to be getting credit for.
by Peter Bendix on Jul 28, 2008 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
And the point is also
Upton is still having an above average season for center fielders both offensively and defensively. Everyone wants his power back, and when (if?) it comes back he’s going to be an absolute megastar.
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 28, 2008 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions
In terms of runs scored by a team
The best value is to combine them, like GPA, 1.8 times OBP + SLG.
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 28, 2008 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions
I thought I remembered hearing OBP was valued a little more then SLG...
But I also thought I remembered hearing SLG% correlated to runs scored slightly more then OBP
The highest correlation to runs scored
Is (1.8 x OBP) + SLG.
So a .270/.370/.430 guy is more productive than a .270/.330/.470 guy (assuming everything else is equal).
by Peter Bendix on Jul 28, 2008 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions
I do have a problem with slugging percentage though
It is nitpicking, but I do not think each form of a hit should be equal distant apart from each other. For example IMO, a home run and triple should have a far greater distance between the values than say a triple and double.
You're undervaluing what an extra base or two means.
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 28, 2008 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Instead of 1 for a single, 2 for a double, 3 for a triple, 4 for HR I’d probably rather it be something like 1 fo ra signle, 2.2 for a double 2.8 for a triple, and 4.1 for a home run.
Linear weights.
In fact, this work has been done before.
1B is worth .47 runs
2B is worth .78 runs
3B is worth 1.09 runs
HR is worth 1.4 runs
by Peter Bendix on Jul 28, 2008 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions
That's based on research on run values.
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 28, 2008 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions
well that is what slugging should be based upon IMO
not how many feet someone can run…
just curious but what is the “run value” for a BB or HBP?
SBs
Any info on run values for stolen bases? What about broken down between stealing 2nd and stealing 3rd?
SBs aren't broken down on the chart
Or Tango’s chart at least, that’s when I’d refer to the runs expectancy chart.
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 28, 2008 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Hm, you might be using a new chart
I’m using Tango’s and a BB is .303 while a HBP is .330.
Obviously if you’re using a new chart your numbers are more accurate.
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 28, 2008 3:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Maybe I'm having a brain fart
But how could those two be different intuitively?
That wouldn't explain why a HBP is
Valued more than a BB.
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 28, 2008 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions
oh i read it opposite lol
i just assumed bb was valued moreso. possibly the brawlfense effect?
Just a guess:
Perhaps BBs sometimes occur in situations where they may not be particularly harmful (first base open and/or a great hitter on base), whereas HBP can result in any situation?
by Peter Bendix on Jul 28, 2008 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions
DH is the easiest one in the world to fix
We could go from having around the worst DH production to one of the best in the history of the world for just one prorated salary that will end up going to underprivleged kids.
You wouldn't want him to tarnish his legacy by having him be a hired gun.
Revenge of '96: STOP THE CHOP
by JI on Jul 28, 2008 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions
That would make us sad.
Revenge of '96: STOP THE CHOP
by JI on Jul 28, 2008 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions
It's chaos, at best, let's just go back to 9=8.
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 28, 2008 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Any day now, Andy's going to come through for us.

B Rad the Ray Fan
www.we-use-more-than-one-stat-here.com
Firedman getting some help is going to be like the Rays offense
Well hear a bunch of almost rumors right before the deadline but ultimately, nothing’s going to be done.
The impact of Bonds on this team cannot be overstated.
With almost any other player the impact for the 50+ games remaining will be minimal. Bonds would be huge. It would cost us near nothing. No prospects. Very little cash.
For every remaining Rays game I go to (which is nearly all)
I will bring a Bonds sign. I will be like the lady with the signs for all the Rays players, but instead of for each player I will bring 20 Bonds signs.
Based on last year's numbers...
I’m talking purely hitting with no defensive value. He would probably hit better not having to play the field, with his creaky knees. His .480 OBP, .565 SLG, and OPS+ of 170 say he is still elite.
Obviously I know you think he is a stud, but I think Top 5 is still reasonable.
I know many of you discount protection
But this would be the first time he would have it in a long time hitting between BJ and Evan. And for a guy that leads the universe in intentional walk sthat would be a very good thing for him.
I'll discount protection, but not the amount of times Longoria would come up with possibly two on.
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 28, 2008 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions
god look at the lefty/righty/lefty action
it is perfect. definition of harmony
Nice Job RJ
I don’t buy into Pena being much above average though offensively. 798 OPS doesn’t blow me away, particularly with the high K rate. One thing your statistic, OBP, and OPS fail to take into consideration is the value of putting the ball in play. K’s never get you closer to scoring a run. Sometimes a ground ball or fly ball does just that, and it also introduces the potential for a defensive error.
You nailed it on LF and RF. Hinske is decent statistically, but only against righties. Carl is so over-rated, I am just sick of watching him out there. His power has dropped over 3 straight seasons. We can suspect whatever we want to as the reason, but it is what it is. His OPS/VORP says he is a hole in this lineup.
I wish we could move CC before the break. There are so many people who worship this guy, and you have to believe a lot of GM’s would overpay. How about CC and a pitching prospect to Texas for Hamilton, lol? Seriously though, I’d like to package CC and a pitcher for a big time corner OF bat.

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