when bj upton is the MVP of the world series this october we can all just look back on this and laugh

Aybar’s was an isolated incident. This has become a string of incidents with Upton.

Another point: Even if he thought there were two outs, he still should have been hustling out of the box. Let’s not act like this is the first time this has happened and he has been singled out. If you watch the other guys — pena for example — they are busting their ass down the line whether there is two outs or not. every time.

I like Upton and I think sitting him next game is an extreme reaction, but at the same time it is understandable. I respect that he is taking it like a man.

Hopefully BobR will stop by. He seems to really like Maddon’s managing and I would be curious to hear his take on it.

Maddon is right, and kudos to him for having the nuts to stand up and do something so potentially unpopular. He is absolutely right to pull Upton, make an example of him, do whatever he needs to do to take and maintain control of his team full of impressionable young players. I just can’t figure out why he didn’t do it last year, because there have been plenty of violators. I think I’ve seen every one of them dogging it at some point except for Zobrist, maybe a couple of others.

This team isn’t good enough to win without full effort, but it is good enough to win without BJ tonight (10 runs last time this happened).

FWIW, we’re out here in Dallas for the series and saw the Ruggiano play from a good angle… don’t know how it looked on TV, but there’s absolutely no way that’s a hit and no way BJ wouldn’t have gotten to that ball considering how shallow he plays. If Garza’s mad at anybody, it should be BJ instead of Maddon.

It takes no talent whatsoever to hustle down the line. It is absolutley disgusting to watch players dogging it down the line when they know their job is to bust ass and give max. effort.

Fuck Upton and his lazy ass. Maddon has to get the lazy out of this guy. He has to get 100% effort for this team to win. BJ isn’t doing that. If Maddon gets on his ass now he’s just making him better and the team better for the future. BJ can coast and is better than 70% of the players in the league. For the Rays to win the East and make the playoffs, Maddon needs 100% out of Upton.

I’m 100% behind Maddons decision to sit BJ. I love Upton as a player. If he’s going to get to superstar caliber, it’s a manager like Maddon that will get him there.

In Novemeber 2005 the the Tampa Bay Rays organization established an elite school for the top one percent of all its players. Its purpose was to teach the lost art of baseball, hustle, combat, and to insure that the handful of men who played were the best players in the world. They succeeded. Today, the Organization calls it’s training program, Maddon’s School. The players call it: TOP GUN.

how hard is that? I know it’s an issue with a lot of players in the game today, but that doesn’t excuse not following the style of play that your manager has been preaching to you for the last three years. And you were already made an example of two weeks ago! I’m glad Maddon waited until Upton went out into CF, he deserved to be embarrassed because he embarassed maddon and his teammates with his lack of hustle and respect.

I buy that. He has a flaw and needs to correct that.

What I don’t understand is the chain of logic that:

Not running to first = not caring = not a good ballplayer = plenty of replacements available

BJ has a flaw. That flaw makes him a slightly worse player. With that flaw he is still better than 75% of the players in baseball. Why is the flaw of not running to first base so much worse than Hinske’s flaw of not being fast or Crawford not getting on base.

I understand that it is magnified since it seems like something he can control, but that doesn’t matter. It’s a minor flaw.

You can still love a flawed player.

You can’t pretend that BJ gets singled out for no reason anymore. This is the SECOND time he has been benched DURING A GAME for lack of hustle. That is so rediculously embarrassing on his part. It shouldn’t have taken even one time. RUN OUT EVERY SINGLE HIT BJ. So what if it’s stupid? It’s what Joe Maddon wants, and last time I checked, Joe Maddon is in charge, not BJ Upton. So play these stupid little games Maddon has, BJ, because this is your JOB and he is your MANAGER. You have to kiss a little ass sometimes.

My take, for what it’s worth.

The main defense offered for Upton’s obvious lack of effort is that lots of guys exhibit that lack of effort. That’s a straw man argument that is illogical in the extreme. Try telling the judge in traffic court that lots of guys speed, or that lots of guys roll through stop signs. In this context, the strawman argument is phony. He’s called upon to do his best by his contract and by his obligations to himself and to his teammates, and he only has to do that a few times a day. He gets maybe a dozen chances a game to expend effort. He certainly expends maximum effort a lot of the time. (I don’t think he can steal as many bases as he does by jogging on the basepaths.)

But it is a fact that he does dog it, and he dogs it a lot. When he dogs it, it’s blatant. If you see a patrol car at the intersection, you don’t do a rolling stop. Upton hasn’t figured that out. His numbers are not the numbers of a Ramirez, who was tolerated for a long time because of his huge production when he was not “being Manny.” Upton’s numbers are those of a fast player and that’s pretty much it.

The other defense of Upton is that we’re better with him in the lineup and dogging it than we are with someone else. That’s pretty much an unprovable concept in my opinion. I’ve seen the marvelous catches. I’ve also seen him jog to the gap to pick up the ball and get it back in and wonder how many extra bases he’s given up with that kind of approach. Maybe all the number crunchers can quantify that, but I doubt it.

I hope this last spanking will be just what this mental toddler needs. Maybe he’ll fix his attitude for the rest of the year. The fix need only be short term, because it appears unlikely in the extreme that he will be back here next year. That’s a shame for all concerned, because I’m convinced that Upton has it within himself to be a high caliber player. I thought the same of Delmon Young. But I prefer Bartlett and Garza to Young, and I suspect that I will prefer the new player or players we get in exchange for Upton.

My wife asked an interesting question. Why can’t they bring back Jonny Gomes? A better question is why they can’t upload Jonny’s attitude into BJ.

I was never a BJ hater, but what bugs me is the denial by some board members that the guy plays lazy at times. Twice this season I’ve seen balls hit over his head off the wall, where he simply jogged after the loose ball rather than hustling to get it back to the infield.

Bottom line – Maddon has now hit him twice for not running down the base paths.

There is a problem here. I’m not going to hate on the guy like some media members obviously are, but I’m not going to bury my head in the sand either. If BJ played all out like is often suggested here, then why he has been pulled twice within a month for not hustling?

exciting season in Rays history

Why does he play with a chip?

Hopefully he and his attitude are sent somewhere like KC, Pittsburgh, or better yet Toronto.

BJ Jackson and Riggans for Hamilton

BJ messed up, but it doesn’t make it right what Maddon did. There is a clear double standard and BJ should bring that up to Maddon. However, BJ does need to hustle. I understand it is very superficial and probably doesn’t impact the game, but he needs to do it just to appease his coach.

Yes this surely needs to end. First of all, Maddon knows much better what needs to be done with Upton than you or me know. if read most of the comments in favor of Upton and they just don’t hold any water. You guys say that there is a double standard and that others also dog it to first and why does Maddon only get on Upton? None of you know what Maddon says to each player in the clubhouse do you? The fact that he seems to get on BJ more than the others is probably that he has gotten on him as well as the others in private but BJ seems to not learn his lesson. Didn’t he get called out the night before because he had to go back to 1st and didn’t touch 2nd base? I don’t think that he thinks anything at all when he is out there. he thinks that his talent alone is enough. come on, you’ve seen that guy at your work who doesn’t think he needs to learn or study anything, he just thinks that his prior knowledge is enough. well same with BJ. " oh why waste time learning the game and knowing the intricacies of the game, why learn the fundamentals, i got too much talent and that will get me thru to that big contract".

As far as Maddon, he doesn’t play favorites, remember when he took Percival (his buddy from the angel days) out of a game when he could not finish the game due to injury? he is not making an example out of BJ, he is penalizing him for continuing to “forget” where to run, where to throw the ball, when to run it out, how many outs there are, touch all the bases on the way back, don’t look down on the ump when he calls 3rd strike, etc, etc.

as far as BJ being a star, come on you are in love with this guy. the stars of this team are many, Longo, Pena, Aki, Navarro, Garza, Shields, J.P. and Kazmir (when he is on). the 2nd tier are Bartlett, Hinske, Crawford, edwin, sonnastine, Percival, and BJ. yea there may be 29 other teams who would like Bj but they are not going to give up the farm. he is not the second coming of any hall of famer. he can be a nice player who can contribute on a team with alot of sluggers but he will never be the the man, the superstar of that team nor the Rays.

more later

Ok R.J. Anderson, i misspelled a few words on my last post. Are you going to criticize me again? I’ll preview first before I post, OK. I don’t honestly see what you see in Upton. a 265 average, 7 homers and 54 RBI’s guy with 3/4 of the season done. so whats that for the end of the season. lets see; .265 or less at his current rate, 9 homers and 72 RBI’s. WOW! i can’t think of any center fielder with better stats, can you? lets see Mclouth in Pittsburgh, Torii, Sizemore, Edmonds (36 years old), Pence, Ankiel, should i go on? then there is the attitude issue; I’ll take any other center fielder i haven’t already mentioned on that alone. the only 2 players I’d take after BJ are, you guessed it Elijah and Delmon.

how bout that Phelps, awesome