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The Truth About B.J. Upton

Let me preface this by stating the obvious: B.J. Upton is without a doubt my favorite Rays player. Understandably it irritates me on numerous levels when I hear sports talk radio shows or comments on sites bash Upton for "being lazy" or wanting to trade him because he's "not good". I've resisted from making a post on it, but I can't help but imagine these type of folks talking about Jesus:

Them: Jesus was lazy, he didn't even shave!
Me: He was God's child and the savior.
Them: He didn't hustle.
Me: He walked on water!
Them: Once.
Me: I should hurt you.

Star-divide

B.J. Upton strikes out too much.
This is only true if Evan Longoria also strikes out too much. Upton mentioned in his interview with our site that one of his focuses this season was decreasing the amount of times he struck out and he's done just that. This season is K% is down to 24.8, last season it was 32.5%. On top of that Upton has raised his BB% from 12.1 to 16.2%

B.J. Upton doesn't know the strike zone.
Yes, I have actually seen this commented. Upton swings at about 14.19% of balls outside of the strike zone. That's third best in the majors behind Jack Cust and Marco Scutaro (!). Upton also sees 4.07 pitches per plate appearance and 18 pitches per game, both are above average. It could be said that Upton knows the strike zone better than anyone else on this team.

B.J. Upton does not make enough contact to bat second.
Again, this is true, but only if you think the same of Evan Longoria who has a lower contact percentage than the paladin of sloth.

B.J. Upton is not a good defender.
Using THT's database I ran the numbers for each year since 2004, including this year, as well as a comprehensive 2004-2008 list of centerfielders. From there I used a technique that Sky Kalkman has used in the past with one exception; I only used the THT numbers and not the ESPN numbers. His technique is to add out of zone plays with plays made and divide by the balls in zone. It's possible to go over a "1.000" ratio, and as we'll see with our centerfielders it happens quite a bit.

From there plug the numbers in to this equation:
Balls in zone*(Player ratio - average ratio)

That gives us the plays made above average, and if you want to turn that into runs simply multiply by the run value of an out, 0.8, and you'll get runs above average.

Upton is roughly five plays above average using this metric, near the likes of Curtis Granderson and better than Grady Sizemore, Torii Hunter, Mike Cameron, Aaron Rowand, Vernon Wells, and Coco Crisp. For you Gold Glove lovers Upton is better than that group that features 16 Gold Gloves.

B.J. Upton is in a contract year.
Whoever started this one simply doesn't know how baseball's contracts work. Upton will end this season with about 2.050 (years.days) of service time. He won't qualify for Super-Two status and he won't reach arbitration until after next season. Upton won't be a free agent until after the 2012 season.

B.J. Upton is a "me" guy.
I don't know Upton personally, but even if he is a me guy (his initials spell out M.E. Upton after all) none of it escapes to the press. Even in Durham he wasn't the loud disruptive one, he was the leader, but not of the falsely labeled Three Am-egoes. After Delmon Young threw his bat Upton chased him into the clubhouse to scold him on an amazingly awful decision. Upton has been shuffled in the lineup without blasting Maddon in the press or speaking of ambushes.

B.J. Upton is lazy.
This is the one that infuriates me. I am B.J.'s height (6'3") and I can attest that when I run it doesn't look nearly as strenuous compared with a 6' person running. Upton has longer strides and obviously covers enough ground to continue going at the pace he's done all season. Look at the recent Manny Ramirez snafu and then examine how many players really do jog to first on groundballs to second. Also this:

B.J. Upton plays a lackadaisical center field. That's not to say he's a bad outfielder -- Upton has a plus arm and fabulous range -- but he's just a bit too nonchalant for my liking. Upton's casual approach in center completely counters the unadulterated hustle of Grady Sizemore, the AL's defending Gold Glove winner at the position.

And yet even BP rates Upton ahead of Sizemore this season in fielding runs above average.

B.J. Upton doesn't care.
Ask anyone who has sat within earshot of Upton after a pop up or misplay. If cursing doesn't matter towards care points then look at his dedication to lowering the amount of strikeouts. Upton cares, he cares a lot, just look at his attitude concerning moving from shortstop. His desire was to be the best at short, unfortunately that didn't quite work out.

B.J. Upton hurts this team.
This is the best one and has even become its own parody. Upton is second on this team in VORP behind Longoria, the leader in OBP, third in EqA, fourth in GPA, and second in Runs Created, and that's just offensively. He is unbelievably valuable and without him we would not be in first place.

Here's our report card on Upton:
Offensively he has a great idea of the strike zone and great plate discipline but just needs his power to come back. When it does Upton is going to be an offensive force.

Defensively Upton has played pretty well considering it's his first full season as a center fielder. Yes he has some aspects to work on, and I'm confident he will.

Therefore: B.J. Upton is a young, above average player in both regards with room to grow on each side that is unfairly treated by the local fans and media.

 

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bravo

Another note on BJ’s defensive value—he’s playing CENTER field. It’s one thing to play a corner position and be an above-average fielder. But to both hold down center AND do it well, that’s huge.

Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.

by Sky Kalkman on Aug 4, 2008 10:11 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Upton's postgame

Upton was interviewed in the post game yesterday and was asked what his approach was in his last couple at bats. About the home run at bat he said something like “I was trying to work him deep in the count and then I got a good pitch”. About his last at bat in the 10th he said “I just had to put the ball in play. I knew I couldn’t strike out.” He walked in that at bat.

Upton’s approach is simply amazing.

by tallyray on Aug 4, 2008 10:11 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Nice post, but I think you are being a little paranoid

I just don’t see nearly as much BJ Upton hate as you see. There is surely some, but it isn’t that extreme.

One thing that comes immediately to mind was an exchange between Duemig and a caller. I believe it was last Tuesday.

Basically the caller was straight out calling BJ out. Essentially he was calling him one of the “three amigos” along with Delmon and Elijah and that BJ had to go. Also that BJ was a cancer and was “rubbing off” on CC. Duemig basically agreed. But then again they are idiots that do not know what they are talking about.

I know I sort of contradicted myself by saying that there isn’t much BJ hate and then giving a pretty exact example of such hate. However, I just don’t think it is that extreme or that profound to really worry about it.

I’ve been a bit frustrated with BJ lately, but it has nothing to do with heart, hussle, or even leadership. He just hasn’t been swinging the bat well. He knows it just as well as everyone should know it. His two XBH yesterday to the left side were very encouraging in that respect.

by matthan on Aug 4, 2008 10:11 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

The Heater comments are full of Upton hate.

And I’ve been told by quite a few people that the sports radio shows (minus Fenton) apparently reek of Upton hate.

by R.J. Anderson on Aug 4, 2008 10:13 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

And before someone jumps in with a bunch of OPS numbers...

When I say “swinging the stick” i mean exactly like. I’m not talking about his ability to work a count or draw walks. I’m talking about how he has been when he actually decides to take a swing at a pitch. He hasn’t been hitting the ball well. Keyword: hitting.

by matthan on Aug 4, 2008 10:13 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well...take away yesterday and what are the numbers?

What he did yesteday was very encouraging and a very good sign. But what he was doing prior to that just wasn’t very good.

by matthan on Aug 4, 2008 10:16 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't know, I'm not really tempted to run them.

Last 7 days is .500, last 14 is .442, and so on. His overall SLG is now .400. That’s encouraging.

by R.J. Anderson on Aug 4, 2008 10:17 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't think BJ was striking out too much

But I’d argue that recently a lot of the strike outs have been caused by his problems with the stick. Look he just hasn’t been hitting the ball well. I wouldn’t be shocked if he has been hitting more foul balls and watching more strikes in the past couple months than what he did at the start of the season. So he’ll be in more 2 strike counts which is going to result in more strike outs.

Once he starts hitting the way he is capable of the strike outs will go way down.

by matthan on Aug 4, 2008 10:29 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I disagree

I think the power outage was directly linked to a conscious effort on his part to cut down the length of his swing.

I also think that in general, you seem to undervalue on-base percentage, an in particualr, its value at the top of the lineup. Even in this off year he is still Rickey Henderson Lite (no he’s not going to steal 100 bases, but this is 2008, and even if he wanted to he would not be permitted to take that many chances)

by GomesSweetGomes on Aug 4, 2008 10:44 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The Rickey Henderson comparisons are interesting.

Henderson went through a few power shortage years.

by R.J. Anderson on Aug 4, 2008 10:46 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

IIRC, Ichiro was known for power in Japan....

and has the ability to do so, but knows getting on base is more beneficial to his team then swinginig for the fences all the time.

by chancedj on Aug 4, 2008 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

That just sounds lazy to me

You are only a ballplayer if you hit homeruns.

Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind.

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 4, 2008 11:28 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

You are correct

If you ever get the chance (not this year obviously as they aren’t coming back), catch an Ichiro BP session. First couple rounds he sprays the ball around the field. Then in the last round he takes aim at the seats. He doesn’t hit mammoth blasts, but he consistently places the ball in the first 5 rows or so in right-center field.

by GomesSweetGomes on Aug 4, 2008 11:31 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not undervaluing on base percentage because I'm not talking about it

I was talking about his ability to hit the ball. Not his ability to get hit by the ball or his ability to take a walk. His ability to swing the bat and hit the ball. If I was talking about his ability at the plate then I must certainly would somehow use on base percentage. But that isn’t what I was talking about. I was talking about a specific skill once he is in fact up to bat. That is skill is the actual act of hitting a baseball. That is what he has been struggling with. And that has nothing to do with on base percentage.

If you want to discuss how he has done overall at the plate then we can just use his OPS and go from there. But IMO that is pretty lazy analysis. We should break it down a bit further and see what he is doing good at and what he is doing poor at. He is very good at working the count and drawing walks. He has been pretty poor at actually hitting the ball.

by matthan on Aug 4, 2008 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

his AVG is "fine", it's his power that's been poor.

my blog // calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy // past results do not guarantee future performance

by Sky Kalkman on Aug 4, 2008 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm always in the outfield

3 days don’t go by without me overhearing someone criticize him for being lazy. It’s bullshit!

by GomesSweetGomes on Aug 4, 2008 10:37 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The Johnny-Come-Lately fans are the worst

They sit back and spew misinformation to people they’re with about the team or the game of baseball itself along with every little baseball fact or story they’ve ever heard or learned. They criticize current players or the manager for certain things they do without having an understanding of a decision at least a theory about why they did what they did. There are days when I wish the Trop were half-full of people so I wouldn’t have to hear as much of this garbage. Hopefully, these newer fans will educate themselves on the team and baseball as they continue to follow the team more closely.

by rayweaver on Aug 4, 2008 10:50 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

BJ leaving and CC staying

is the exact opposite of what I would like to see in the coming off-season. Get high value for CC while high value still exists, and prepare for BJ to improve. CC has already peaked, his power numbers keep dropping, his speed is being limited by persistent leg/hamstring problems, and frankly his OBP doesn’t set the world on fire.

I don’t know what the stat mining places say about CC’s range, but I think he takes crappy routes to the ball and saves himself with his speed.

by RayFanNY on Aug 4, 2008 11:44 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

he's rated as the best left fielder so far this year about 8 runs better than average

that’s on par with recent seasons

my blog // calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy // past results do not guarantee future performance

by Sky Kalkman on Aug 5, 2008 10:47 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Give me more on the defense

I know there are some metrics that say Upton is a good defender. Before I jump on the he’s better than average bandwagon, would there be any way to post all of his relevant defensive metrics (including those that rate him below average)?

Vogt early, Vogt often.

by Brickhaus on Aug 4, 2008 10:15 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Quick list:

FRAA 1
2007 UZR was -1 compared to average, couldn’t find this year’s rank.
.916 RZR 64 OOZ
Couldn’t find his OPA!
2007 PMR was in the lower tier.

Not sure if you had any other metrics in mind.

by R.J. Anderson on Aug 4, 2008 10:24 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

STATS zone rating has him about as below-average as BIS zone rating (RZR) has him above average

my blog // calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy // past results do not guarantee future performance

by Sky Kalkman on Aug 4, 2008 10:28 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

it's basically the same thing, but the data is collected by two different companies

i’m not sure if the sub-zones are the same or not. and i know STATS doesn’t report OOZ plays

my blog // calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy // past results do not guarantee future performance

by Sky Kalkman on Aug 4, 2008 10:35 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

also, I'd like to suggest never, ever quoting FRAA ever again

it is not advanced at all, in the sense that it bothers to use play by play information. might as well use fielding percentage

my blog // calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy // past results do not guarantee future performance

by Sky Kalkman on Aug 4, 2008 10:29 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

yup, BPro has a surprising amount of crap stats to go along with their good stuff

my blog // calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy // past results do not guarantee future performance

by Sky Kalkman on Aug 4, 2008 10:35 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I've been relying a lot more on THT lately.

I’m far more interested in using statistics that I know the formulas to and can recreate myself.

by R.J. Anderson on Aug 4, 2008 10:37 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Also, I'll argue that Upton NEEDS not to care

He used to really beat himself up over bad plays, and it would lead to slumps and/or more bad play. If he needs to not care as much to be more consistent, then so be it.

Vogt early, Vogt often.

by Brickhaus on Aug 4, 2008 10:17 AM EDT reply actions   1 recs

Here is the problem with BJ's defense..

Upton occassionally looks pretty lost in center, but this can easily be explained by his relative newness to the position. Also these mistakes are fairly irrelevant in the grand scheme of things since they are so few and far between. The problem is they just look really bad and they stick out in the average fans mind. And unfortunately the average fan in Tampa Bay isn’t very smart.

Upton has taken a few plays off. But again nearly every player does that. Aki has done it (see Uptons lazy fly ball that dropped a week ago), CC does it all the time (see scoring on 1st from a single). It is just very difficult for a player to play at 100% effort every play in every game. Especially in the pros where nearly every pop up is caught or every basic ground ball is an easy out. It is just human nature to assume. Very few players have the mental toughness to be able to play 100% all the time.

by matthan on Aug 4, 2008 10:20 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Upton is freaking awesome in the field

Watching him on TV and watching him in person are two completely different things. He covers a serious amount of ground out there. He can play shallow and defend against the softly hit single, knowing that he has the speed to race back for the deep shots. People bitch because he occasionally lets a ball get over his head that he can’t get to, but he also prevents a lot more of the little bloopers from dropping in. I’m tired of people saying he’s a horrible defender. I can tell these people don’t really know what the hell they are talking about and that they clearly don’t watch the games that often. What reinforces this is when I hear them say, “We need Rocco back in center”. BJ is awesome on defense. Forget about what the numbers say, and just WATCH HIM!

by rayweaver on Aug 4, 2008 10:38 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Someone commented that a person called him a lazy ass for the ball yesterday

That essentially bounced off of the bottom of the wall. There was no way he could’ve gotten that ball, and yet people still hate on him despite playing it pretty well off of the wall (the bare-handed bobble excused because it didn’t allow the runner to move up)

by R.J. Anderson on Aug 4, 2008 10:45 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

slow clap...

...building to standing O.

This stuff needs to be said, and said often.

by zeng8r on Aug 4, 2008 10:26 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Admit it

You hate Carl Crawford and Edwin Jackson. You’re just fooling us this B, The J Stands For Jesus, Upton numbers to hide your true feelings.

But seriously excellent post, I wish the people who bash B.J. would take the time to actually do the research instead of the “I see it with my own eyes” routine. Evan Longoria has more K’s on the season than Upton does. However, Upton has over 30 more BBs. Like you said if people are going to critize one player, they need to take others to task as well.

mvn.com/mlb-rays

by Tommy Rancel on Aug 4, 2008 10:27 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

people probably critiize him for takeing the walks because he is too lazy to swing lol

rj, bj is lazy give it up, when he hit that HR yesterday, all he did was JOG around the bases, what a lazy ass lol jk

longo=ROY. friedman=Executive of the year. Maddon=Manager of the year. Rays=WS champs 08! fiddler cat=best way to show your excitement middle name lamar=success, last name lamar=fail, sorry chuck! pause not!

by RaysOfHope on Aug 4, 2008 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Funny

It makes me laugh when I see baseball writers saying Justin Upton is the better of the 2 Upton brothers. Has Justin hit 24 home runs in a season? Has he hit .300? Has he stole 30 bases? Definately not. Bj Upton is one of the best raw young players around and his defense is so smooth in center it reminds me of a young Ken Griffey Jr. His potential is limitless he has a chance to match the bats of Albert Pujols, the before Mentioned A-rod and Griffey, and perhaps the king Barry Bonds. Not in home runs but in all around GAME and the ability to change the way teams approach us.

Give Melvin Emanuel Upton his due we would not be in this position even with a fully healthy Rocco in center.

Justin Upton comparisons to BJ are a joke.

Devil Rays World Series 2009

by Japhei on Aug 4, 2008 10:30 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Justin is also just 20 years old

I’ve heard 2 sets of comparisons. The first is of the type you mentioned. The second says BJ is better, but Justin has more upside. The first is ridiculous, but the second is a very reasonable position to take.

by GomesSweetGomes on Aug 4, 2008 10:51 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I've said it before....

BJ reminds me of Andrew Jones in center. very good, but looks like he plays very lazily. I remember hearing the announcers whine about him all the time catching it, on a long, easy popup, on a basket catch.

by chancedj on Aug 4, 2008 11:29 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Andruw Jones was awesome before he bulked up and starting hitting all the dingers

Kind of an argument for Beej to not be swinging for the fences. If we consider this a down year, I’ll take another 15 of ‘em.

Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind.

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 4, 2008 11:32 AM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Deumig has been stirring up controversy in this market for years.

He has been rather successful at it too. He mantra is to find the thing that annoys the public the most about a team and then perpetuate that perception. Then the callers will spit that same perception back at him. Then it kind of snowballs from there. That is the reason the Chris Simms article was such a huge issue with Deumig, It was basically the Tribune being a caller to his show and saying his veiw points all over again. Only it was a news paper and distributed more widely than his radio show is.

He gets an erection anytime anyone mentions anything bad about John Gruden or BJ Upton lately. This perception is perpetuated too when BJ makes the correct play but the casual mouth breathing Deumig listener watches that play says he should have dove or he was lazy or any other number of Deumigism’s. Deumig is tolerable at best on some days. Most of the time he is unbearable.

Notice Deumig shut up really quick about Jeremy Stevens when he got arrested for a DUI himself. At least BJ isnt getting arrested oh and unlike you Deumig he has talent for his occupation.

by PewterPirate55 on Aug 4, 2008 10:31 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I wish we could flood the station

With letters that follow Duemig’s Stevens rant”Is this the kind of person you want representing your org”, and “I am willing to cut Stevens, I meant Duemig slack over his first DUI, but…..”

The criticism that Duemig layed on Stevens was justified. He just has no business being the guy paid to do it.

by GomesSweetGomes on Aug 4, 2008 10:54 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm pretty sure that it was Big Dog's 3rd DUI

not first. The guy is an assclown to the max. Anyone that agrees with his short-sighted, emotional banter needs to actually watch a game and look at the numbers. Unfounded criticism is just lazy.

Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind.

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 4, 2008 11:07 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agreed with his take on Stevens

I haven’t been arrested for a DUI so I’m still allowed to criticize, right?

I was (and still am) more angry about the Bucs organization pulling the wool over my eyes and saying “oh, we knew about this last year,” which apparently means it’s still OK to sign a violent rapist and serial alcoholic who isn’t even a good player.

by kericr on Aug 4, 2008 11:17 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not going to defend the guy

but that was seven years ago. We took a chance on Pittman after he played demo derby with his wife, child and babysitter, and he straightened out to become a real stand-up guy. Of course we took the same gamble on David Boston and he ended up G’ed out behind the wheel. I don’t condone what Stevens did, but it was quite a while ago, and from all accounts he has been a good teammate.

Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind.

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 4, 2008 11:20 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't find either acceptable

But if Duemig has been arrested multiple times for DUI, then yeah, he has no right to comment. And frankly, he should lose his job over it (though not for the first offense).

by GomesSweetGomes on Aug 4, 2008 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It just goes to prove that Karma will catch up to you every time.

I have no problem with him talking plain truth about Gruden or the Tampa Bay Buccaneers. Lord knows there are plenty of things to base criticizims of the Bucs and or Gruden on. But the entire player relationship angle is just absolutely stupid, he is playing this angle to get the fans that are dumb enough to say “Gruden won a Super Bowl with Dungy’s Team”. You know the kind that doesn’t know dick about football.

Hey Steve why don’t you use statistics in your arguments instead of feelings, oh that means you would actually have to do show prep. Lets just base all of our arguments on feeling and perception. Deumig is to sports radio what Dr. Phil is to psychology. Dumb people think he is smart. Unfortunately for this city’s sports culture his ratings show exactly how dumb we are as a city when it comes to sports.

The only thing that has annoyed me with BJ is taking called 3rd strikes but that is just my pet peeve. I can take a bad bat if the D is good. Upton has made some mistakes on D, but they all have and I don’t see anything out of him that hasn’t been displayed by all of them at some point.

If Deumig actually knew shit from apple butter when it comes to baseball he might be tolerable to listen to.

by PewterPirate55 on Aug 4, 2008 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

with all the hype and 2007's awesome offensive numbers, people had higher expectations in 2008

very good seasons that don’t live up to unreasonable expectations are seen as disappointments. it’s tough to get those people to view BJ with the same glasses they view everyone else. it’s like the Mets fans who blame Carlos Beltran’s disappointing offensive numbers for the Mets’ troubles. idiots.

my blog // calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy // past results do not guarantee future performance

by Sky Kalkman on Aug 4, 2008 10:31 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Expectations are lame

They called Alex Rodriguez 2004 season in NY a dissapointment.

I do not see how 36 home runs, 112 runs, 106 rbi, 28 sb , and a .286 average a bad season.

Retarded NY writers.

Devil Rays World Series 2009

by Japhei on Aug 4, 2008 10:43 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

His defense in 2004 was absolutely horrible

Like, killed my fantasy team so bad I traded him away horrible.

by kericr on Aug 4, 2008 10:53 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

STATS zone rating has him at +11 runs at 3B in 2004

am i missing sarcasm?

my blog // calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy // past results do not guarantee future performance

by Sky Kalkman on Aug 4, 2008 10:56 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Who makes a smart analysis based on Fantasy Team production?

Yeah I was being sarcastic, but I think I actually did trade him away in 2004 because they were using Fielding% as a stat, and if I recall correctly his Fielding% was down that year.

by kericr on Aug 4, 2008 11:02 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

*it actually was so bad it was killing my fantasy team

And I traded him for Glaus and another player and managed to make out better in the deal.

by kericr on Aug 4, 2008 11:02 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Rotisserie Leagues do

And I was wrong about the year, it was 2006.

by kericr on Aug 4, 2008 11:04 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

We used it last year in a league....just to be different.

we also used total bases, blown saves to make it fun. I traded away lowell because he alone was causing me to lose Fld% almost every week and supposedly he was known for being one of those that tanks his stats after the ASB.

Straight up for Melvin More IIRC. What happens? Lowell fixes his fielding problems, goes on to have a great second half….and Mora spends most of the time on the freaking DL.

by chancedj on Aug 4, 2008 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Odd.

Honestly I’ve never done a league with F% used.

by R.J. Anderson on Aug 4, 2008 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I play with my uncle in more of a fun league....

him and his friends/my cousin.

This year we’re using the following:

Roster Positions: C, 1B, 2B, 3B, SS, CI, MI, LF, CF, RF, OF, Util, SP, SP, SP, SP, RP, RP, RP, RP, RP, P, BN, BN, BN, BN, BN, BN, BN, BN

Stat Categories: R, HR, RBI, SB, CS, OBP, SLG, W, L, SV, K, HLD, ERA, WHIP, BSV

While that is a lot of stats and a lot of Positions…it can turn your season around in a hurry. Both he and my cousin were in last and next to last for almost the first half of the season They sit at #5 and #3 respectively right now.

Different strategies (like having jose reyes has killed me a bit on the CS category). but makes it fun.

Bit different them my Head to Head league (w/ 5×5 scoring).

Hardest part i find about running multiple leagues is staying competative and fighting the urge to sync up the rosters :).

by chancedj on Aug 4, 2008 11:55 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

yea I am in a pretty deep league that uses

r, h, rbi, HR, TB, OBP, Slg, SB, Fld%,PO,Whip, ERA,W,L,K,TBA,ERA,RA,S,Hld

I may have missed a couple because it is like 24-25 different stats

by Dbullsfan on Aug 4, 2008 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

You use ERA twice?

Maybe you wouldn’t have so many stats if you didn’t use certain ones more than once…. ; )

by rayweaver on Aug 4, 2008 2:17 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I heard from a guy

that him and Jeter spread herpes like a wildfire in California. They’re having some sort of competition to see who can infect more New Yorkers. It is similar to Shawn Kemp’s dream to one-day father 50% of NCAA players.

Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind.

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 4, 2008 11:11 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks R.J.

The post is important because when nonsense about Upton’s play gets repeated over and over without contradiction-or should I say meaningful contradiction-it attains the status of FACT. Like the 3 Amigos nonsense which actually was a perversion of the reality. At least now there is a source to focus the honest appraisal.

by bobr on Aug 4, 2008 10:37 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Joe Magrane knows!

Joe Magrane knows! He constantly is complimenting BJ on his long strides and almost effortless looking play. BJ covers alot of ground.

Also not to sound like a douche buy what is 9=8?

Devil Rays World Series 2009

by Japhei on Aug 4, 2008 10:46 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Maddon motto

9 hard innings everyday = one of 8 playoff spots.

by R.J. Anderson on Aug 4, 2008 10:47 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

People will stop complaining about his defense once...

He truly learns the position. Once this happens he will stop making plays that “look” bad. On defense people usually just remember the plays you screw up and not the plays you make. Especially when you make them as effortlessly as Upton.

And once we get a real right fielder. Uptons inexperience combined with a generally crappy RFer has caused a few gaffes that have looked very poor to the average fan.

by matthan on Aug 4, 2008 10:53 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

My name is STP, and I approve this message

"STP is me. He can do everything I can do." - R.J. Anderson

by P Brady on Aug 4, 2008 12:34 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

If BJ swung more...

As a response to the “BJ doesn’t hit the ball well” comment I decided to do a very quick and crude analysis.

Aki leads the team with 432 at bats. I used at bats for this since it removes non-contact plays and then did AB-SO to achieve plate appearances where contact was made. I used CC as the base since he leads the team in that category with 371 and then normalized all other player stats by multiplying by (371/(AB-SO)). I used that multiplier to normalize the counting stats.

Evan Longoria is the best hitter when making contact. He’d be second on the team in singles, doubles, 4th in triples, 3rd in HRs, 1st in TBs.

Upton’s ranks would be as follows:

1B: 5th
2B: 2nd
3B: 5th
HR: 4th
TB: 5th

So is BJ Upton bad when he makes contact? Not at all. He’s better than CC and Aki in every category but singles and triples.

Of course this is pointless since it assumes the players would have the same production while reducing their K-rates, but it does show what happens when they make contact and swing at the same rate as CC.

by tallyray on Aug 4, 2008 12:41 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

He'd also have an OBP as low as CC...

"STP is me. He can do everything I can do." - R.J. Anderson

by P Brady on Aug 4, 2008 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

That's the easy way out

That’s not the purpose of Matthan’s question or this analysis.

FWIW, I used AB-SO because it only refers to those ABs where contact is made, if I just used ABs then Upton and CC are very close to the same hitter since Upton Ks at a much higher rate. CC hits more triples and Upton more doubles.

by tallyray on Aug 4, 2008 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Upton swinging at a higher rate means he gets On Base at a Lower Rate...

"STP is me. He can do everything I can do." - R.J. Anderson

by P Brady on Aug 4, 2008 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I see what you are saying.

That’s not what I really meant. I was using CC as a bench mark and not really trying to point out what he’s doing wrong. That’s been taken care of many times over. CC is the player on the team with the most balls put into play, thus he’s made contact more than anyone else. That’s why I used him. Navarro actually makes the most contact of anyone on the team, he’s just not near CC in terms of ABs.

by tallyray on Aug 4, 2008 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Actually... hits is wrong...

Upton would actually be second in hits behind Longoria. I changed the formula and didn’t adjust singles.

by tallyray on Aug 4, 2008 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

how about AVG and SLG on balls-in-play (including homeruns)?

my blog // calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy // past results do not guarantee future performance

by Sky Kalkman on Aug 4, 2008 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not sure how this will look

................................AVG….....SLG
A. Iwamura….......0.347…..0.472
Carl Crawford…..0.315…..0.464
B.J. Upton….........0.358…..0.531
Evan Longoria….0.378…..0.726
Carlos Pena…....0.355…...0.687
J. Bartlett…..........0.300…...0.357
D. Navarro…........0.345…..0.464
Eric Hinske….......0.335…..0.665

Of course the power hitters dominate slugging since it eliminates the usual neutralization that strikeouts cause. Upton comes out looking damn good and I don’t see how one could say Upton doesn’t hit the ball well.

by tallyray on Aug 4, 2008 1:01 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

cool

this again drives home the point that BJ’s power is pretty much the only thing that’s off. he’s getting hits on balls in play, but his SLG is lower than other players with a similar in-play average, like Longo, Pena, and Hinske. He’s more in the Iwamura/Navarro group, with a bit more power.

my blog // calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy // past results do not guarantee future performance

by Sky Kalkman on Aug 4, 2008 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Two things

Firstly it comes back to expectations. Upton isn’t meeting expectations power or slugging wise, but that doesn’t mean he is having a bad year. It feels worse than it is because of those expectations

Secondly, I know you were using the whole season, but I think the problem with Upton has been the past couple months. Ever since he tweeked his shoulder he has been a different hitter.

by matthan on Aug 4, 2008 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I could run those as well if you want...

I don’t think that’s an issue. I think it all boils down to expectations and that really isn’t fair. Should the kid in class that is expected to get A’s be punished for getting a B while the kid who has a C average is allowed to skate by?

If I get time later I’ll run the numbers from that date if someone gives me the date of the injury. Would that help you or is it pointless?

by tallyray on Aug 4, 2008 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

But here's the thing: most of the criticism ISN'T about expecations

It’s about how he’s lazy or not a good player, but even with the lack of power (SLG is finally back to .400) he’s still an above average player. It’s one thing to say he hasn’t surpassed expectations ,it’s another to say he’s not a good player.

by R.J. Anderson on Aug 4, 2008 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think the criticism on draysbay is based upon not meeting expectations during his recent prolonged slump. The criticism outside of draysbay is more of the lazy thing.

by matthan on Aug 4, 2008 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

i agree with the expectations thing in regards to fans

the talk radio thing seems different, as RJ pointed out, although maybe the whole laziness thing is just a dumb explanation for not living up to expectations.

did Upton have the lazy/nonchalant tag before this season?

my blog // calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy // past results do not guarantee future performance

by Sky Kalkman on Aug 4, 2008 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

B.J. is also good to the kids

I have seen him always try to make sure a kid gets the ball. One time against the Red Sox there was a Red Sox fan kid and a Ray fan kid standing at the edge. B.J. made sure that the Ray fan got it by putting it directly in his glove. B.J. also gave a ball to a kid in a cast yesterday. B.J. is a great plater and really doesn’t deserve the hate that is going his way.

Top Josh Paul Pornos- Big Navi Stroking, 2pitchers1cup, BJ to the Balls, Riggans Your Thingans

BELIEVE in 08!

by SRQman on Aug 4, 2008 1:47 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

That's the tip of the iceberg

Every game, like clockwork BJ tosses the ball that he and Crawford warm up with into either the right-centerfield or left centerfield stands. He does this twice a game. Once prior to the top of the 1st. He does it again prior to the top of the 9th. It’s like he’s saying ‘thanks for coming out,’ and ‘thanks for staying the whole game.’

by GomesSweetGomes on Aug 4, 2008 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

My BJ Story

My little sister (12) is a big Rays fan as well and BJ Upton is her favorite player and I had gotten her a BJ Upton Jersey shirt from Durham a couple years ago while he was there. Anyway last season when BJ was on rehab in Durham we ran into him after the game and asked him if he could sign her shirt he did and gave her a high five and we talked for a few minutes about his time in Tampa and he thanked my sister for being a fan.

It is something he probably forgot 10 minutes later but definitely something my sister and I haven’t forgotten.

by Dbullsfan on Aug 4, 2008 2:23 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

BJ's not lazy.

He’s just a smooth SOB, so he looks lazy. Anyhow, I’ll take a lazy Upton over a jacked up, full speed Gomes or Hinske any day of the week.

Save the hate for Percy, I have a bad feeling we are going to need it.

by davelrogers on Aug 4, 2008 1:58 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

B.J. is the man

R.J. I wanted to comment on this enough to emerge from my lurker status here. :)
Great summary of the huge UPside B.J. brings to the team!

by Lurch's Lobbyists on Aug 4, 2008 2:00 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

yes

especially comment to call out common wisdom on the board. group think sucks and needs to be checked.

my blog // calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy // past results do not guarantee future performance

by Sky Kalkman on Aug 4, 2008 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Lurking is creepy...stop

Tools Whore

Sign Bonds!

by Tyler on Aug 4, 2008 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I could have signed up as Lurch's Lurkers

Which actually could have been a better name for his fans when he was with the team.

by Lurch's Lobbyists on Aug 4, 2008 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

This guy?

Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind.

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 4, 2008 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

That being said so does EJax

He is a great guy also.

BJ and Edwin both get bashed for this so called laziness or lack of concentration. Such abstract criticism just pisses me off. I think both guys try as hard as anyone else on the team. Add in they are two of the nicer guys on the team then they should be getting props for something that they are getting bashed for.

by matthan on Aug 4, 2008 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't think I could either bash a player for being lazy or not concentrating.

I have no doubt Edwin, Upton, and whomever else is doing all they can to perform. Sometimes it just doesn’t work out.

by R.J. Anderson on Aug 4, 2008 2:17 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

btw I didn’t bring up Edwin for any other reason besides that I see some similarities between the abstract criticisms both bj and edwin receive from other sources other than draysbay.

by matthan on Aug 4, 2008 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

this is edwin's first year of success as a pitcher he needs loving too

i have been one of the biggest edwin bashers of them all, but i see lately that the kid is finally pitching and not throwing and i really have come around on him in the last couple of months and i am rooting for him to stay in the rotation over sonny if it comes down to it when price gets promoted and gets a rotation spot

longo=ROY. friedman=Executive of the year. Maddon=Manager of the year. Rays=WS champs 08! fiddler cat=best way to show your excitement middle name lamar=success, last name lamar=fail, sorry chuck! pause not!

by RaysOfHope on Aug 4, 2008 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

not that EJax is bad, but BJ's a WAY better player

EJax is a #3/4 starter on most teams, so around a 40th percentile starter (50th percentile pitcher including relievers). Upton is one of the five best CFs in the game, which is about 85th percentile.

my blog // calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy // past results do not guarantee future performance

by Sky Kalkman on Aug 4, 2008 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Very little of the criticism has been about talent

Its been about heart, hustle, concentration, etc.

by matthan on Aug 4, 2008 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

about EJax, you mean?

huh, didn’t realize there was EJax heart criticism. idiots.

my blog // calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy // past results do not guarantee future performance

by Sky Kalkman on Aug 4, 2008 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

With him it is more about his concentration and focus

But to me it is all one of the same. There is no real way to measure that type of thing.

by matthan on Aug 4, 2008 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

oh and bj loves tequila and so do i

that makes him super cool in my book

by matthan on Aug 4, 2008 2:31 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Blatent Racism

AM talk radio is normally home to one type of american. Right wing nut jobs. So it isn’t suprising when you hear guys like duemig use key words like “lazy” when referring to Upton. It’s tounge in check racism. You hear the same type of key words on rush limbaugh, hanity, and bill oriley when they refer to obama. It’s all tounge in check racism with no basis in facts. It’s intellectual dishonesty at it’s finest.

by putupyourDUKES on Aug 4, 2008 2:43 PM EDT reply actions   1 recs

Please leave your politics off this board...

I am not going to get into how asinine your comment is, because politics don’t belong on this board.

by td32 on Aug 4, 2008 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

In this context it does. I am showing an example of how Duemig is intentionally using a key word, like lazy, in a racist context. BJ is anything but lazy, Duemig knows this, but he uses it to grab the attention of many of his racist listeners. Let’s be serious, the #1 listener of AM talk radio are older white males. It would be stupid of Duemig not to use the same tactics that the right wing radio hosts use to drum up listener support. The exact same thing tactic is being used on Obama, which I used as an example.

by putupyourDUKES on Aug 4, 2008 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

shut the hell up

you should probably take off your pink panties prior to posting here

by matthan on Aug 4, 2008 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Nice retort. Thanks for proving my theory about intellectual lazyness of the average slob.

by putupyourDUKES on Aug 4, 2008 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Matthan...Please, let's not get into this argument.....

It doesnt belong here. People love CC and he is black. People hate BJ, and he is black. Does him being black have anything to do with the “lazy” moniker….maybe. I hope not, but maybe. Duemig is just a moron…his rants have nothing to do with race.

by td32 on Aug 4, 2008 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I am not touching this

And the words you sow are being planted in very dangerous territory. I suggest you re-think the expression of your position. There is on-record precedent for libel suits brought against those who post these kinds of posts on the internet.

by kericr on Aug 4, 2008 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

No there isn’t.

by putupyourDUKES on Aug 4, 2008 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Not a successful one

Libel is a false statement of fact. Calling someone a racist is expressing an opinion. And Duemig is a public figure too, so a more relaxed standard applies anyways.

by GomesSweetGomes on Aug 4, 2008 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Only in the UK

No way does that fly in US courts.

Then again, some people just like bringing nuisance lawsuits for the fun of it.

Vogt early, Vogt often.

by Brickhaus on Aug 4, 2008 4:03 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

And it shouldnt go to the courts...

But calling Duemig a racist without having anything to really back it up isnt fair. It seems like a crutch that many people will use instead of having a logical debate. DOnt get me wrong, there are certainly racists out there…of every race. BUt the Al Sharpton’s of the world arent helping matters.

by td32 on Aug 4, 2008 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ugh...

I’m not going to get into a political discussion. But I will say that the political demographics are completely different for a sports talk show and a political show. Please stop with the politics as they dont belong on this forum.
Duemig IS a blowhard, but it has nothing to do with racism with him…it is just idiocy.

by td32 on Aug 4, 2008 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

until you brought up the political metaphor, i think your post was fine and productive

not that you’re wrong on talks shows/Obama, but it’s good policy just to avoid any political references altogether at a place like this.

my blog // calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy // past results do not guarantee future performance

by Sky Kalkman on Aug 4, 2008 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I guess I can respect the no politics stuff.

Stil doesn't change the fact that duemig has had a history of racism. Regarding CC, alot of people see him as "one of the good ones", or more commonly refered to as a "house nigger". People that are racist in this day and age try to latch on to that one "black friend" to prove they are not racist. I

by putupyourDUKES on Aug 4, 2008 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

How has he been racist...

He LOVES Galloway and Brooks.

by td32 on Aug 4, 2008 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

They are “one of those good ones” in his eyes.

by putupyourDUKES on Aug 4, 2008 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Keyshawn Johnson?

He loves Keyshawn, and I think most would agree that Keyshawn ruffles some feathers.

by td32 on Aug 4, 2008 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

He loved keyshawn? Well I guess I might be wrong about him. Maybe duemig is just dumb, and not a dumb racist.

He is a compulsive gambler, and drinks like a fish so one can make an argument that he is mentally handicap as well.

by putupyourDUKES on Aug 4, 2008 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I am not sticking up for Duemig...

I can hardly listen to him. He is a complete blowhard that may hinder the Rays from signing BJ in the future. I just dont think he is racist.

by td32 on Aug 4, 2008 3:23 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Don't you know?

You are a complete racist if you do not love every single minority in the world. They are never guilty of anything and they are always better than their white counterparts. Merit be damned.

by matthan on Aug 4, 2008 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Besides Grady Sizemoore, there isn’t a single guy in MLB that I would want in CF over Upton. Upton has never shown a single reason to be called lazy, why else would one refer to him in this way?

by putupyourDUKES on Aug 4, 2008 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It's because of his approach...

It runs contrary to the way many old timers were taught how to play. Take a lot of pitches(mainly called 3rd strikes). He also has looked “bad” on a couple plays which the idiots use against him. The way he runs “looks lazy”, but that is cause he runs in a long strided way.
I am a big BJ fan, but I have seen him make some rather lazy plays this year. People make mistakes, so I dont judge him on 3 or 4 plays out of an entire season. Maybe being black affects a small %, but not the majority of fans.

by td32 on Aug 4, 2008 3:22 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Beltran? Granderson?

And then I can see a case for Upton. But Ankiel’s there, too.

my blog // calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy // past results do not guarantee future performance

by Sky Kalkman on Aug 4, 2008 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I scrupulously avoid political, social or religious commentary

on this site, with a couple of exceptions when I thought they were relevant to a sports’ discussion. But in this case, I do think it is relevant.

The issue of racism that putupyourDUKES raises has nothing to do with specific people or references to particular athletes. Of course, I cannot speak for him, but in general terms, the issue is one of underlying assumptions and the genesis of certain kinds of code language.

Referring to anyone praising a particular athlete who is black to prove he is not racist is akin to the cliche “Some of my best friends are….” It is irrelevant. Many slaveowners had remarkably amicable relations with blacks. It had nothing to do with their underlying racist assumptions.

I have no idea if Duemig is actually racist. I have never listened to him. But even the best intentioned among us easily fall into assumptions and preconceptions without intending injury.

I think it fair to say that words like lazy, natural athlete (rather than hard working) and the like arise from such preconceptions. It does not mean the speaker is racist nor does it mean that the intention is to generalize about race, but historically it is of a piece with that sort of rhetoric, and while it does not mean anyone is immune from that sort of criticism, it is useful to be reminded of why it is a sensitive issue.

Perhaps a better way to think about it is that when such rhetoric is applied, we need to be extra vigilant as to what is really being said because there is so much precedent that it is not always purely benign criticism of the individual.

by bobr on Aug 4, 2008 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

I disagree

I understand what you mean and they holds some water if we are talking about actual work or school. Perhaps then the term lazy is unfairly applied.

But we are talking about baseball players. A lazy ballplayer is very well defined. You are either dogging it or you aren’t. It is the exact same whether you are white, black, or hispanic.

It is just nearly impossible to be unfairly applied along racial lines. A player either takes plays off or he doesn’t. He either doesn’t run out ground balls or he does.

by matthan on Aug 4, 2008 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

right, laziness is easy to rationally define and observe

but if it’s done irrationally and tends to be applied for blacks over whites, then that’s pretty much the definition of racism. and stupidity.

my blog // calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy // past results do not guarantee future performance

by Sky Kalkman on Aug 4, 2008 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I believe there are some people that..

Think BJ is lazy, and part of their reasoning may be because he is black. They may not purposely be doing it, but because of the preconceptions bob brought up, they still exist.
I loathe racial discussions. I fel they are completely one sided because you are labeled as a racist if you happen to fall on one side of the argument. Dukes had no reason to bring up “right wing nut jobs”, conservative radio hosts, and Obama. There is a reason a number of people dont loke Obama, and I’m sure him being part black may be a reason for some. But I’d like to think him being rated the most liberal person in the Senate may have something to do with it as well.

by td32 on Aug 4, 2008 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

He wasn't even the most liberal senator who was a Democratic presidential candidate

But that’s a topic for another board.

A lot of the common characterizations people use, and preconceptions they have, are rooted somewhat in preconceptions. People say Eckstein tries harder than Jimmy Rollins. Is that because he actually tries harder? Or is it actually because Eckstein doesn’t look like he should be a good shortstop and Rollins does? I’ve never seen any implication that one actually works harder than the other. Same deal here.

The other part that people miss, to some extent, is that just because two guys put in the same amount of effort, it doesn’t mean they’ll get the same amount out of that effort. For all we know, Upton is trying his hardest and just has poor judgment. Or he’s really dogging it. Or he just has a lackadaisical way about him that looks bad but is just what he looks like. Either way, the results don’t necessarily justify the hate.

Vogt early, Vogt often.

by Brickhaus on Aug 4, 2008 4:10 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

re: paragraph 2

I forgot to mention the actual point of that anecdote, which is that even if a lot of the difference in characterization has to do with factors other than race, where race could reasonably be one of the factors, it almost always is, if only because the perceived differences are culturally ingrained.

Vogt early, Vogt often.

by Brickhaus on Aug 4, 2008 4:13 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Obviously that publication isnt the end all be all...

But even if he isnt the most liberal, he is close. But as you said, that is a discussion for a different blog…

by td32 on Aug 4, 2008 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

In the 1950s

one of the most common appellations applied to black players was “lazy”. Another was showboat or some synonym. Hank Aaron was the former (it was only barely an improvement over shiftless) while Mays (especially the basket catch) was the latter. I am not maintaining there has been no evolution of attitudes, but residues remain, both for those using the terminology and those receiving it, and to ignore that is to be blind to realities.

Even today there is a tendency to identify white players as scrappy, hard working and crafty while black players are often praised for their natural ability. It is not universal, but there is enough of it to form a pattern. The definition is not at issue; it is the interpretation and application of the terminology.

by bobr on Aug 4, 2008 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions   4 recs

Agreed

I think for very few the racist element is conscious. But it’s still there, and pretending it isn’t won’t change the history of the country we live in.

by GomesSweetGomes on Aug 4, 2008 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

While I completely agree with you

I believe many black athletes see themselves as showman. The term lazy should not be thrown out there unless it is deserving. I have seen BJ be lazy. I dont think he is a “lazy’ player, but he certainly has made a couple lazy plays. CC allowing that single to score a man from 1st was lazy. Navi not getting in front of a pitch to block it is lazy. It happens a lot. I just think BJ is mischaracterized.

by td32 on Aug 4, 2008 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

So if I get this right ???

If Obama is elected and the country is no longer racist, Uptons BA increses by 50 points and he hits 15 homers above his average for the next 4 years.

Race plays no part with Deumig when it comes to sports. It also doesnt to any sane rational fan either. You might have a point if you can provide specific examples of people at games yelling blatanyly racial statements.

I think a lot of “Racisim” is perceived racisim and not actual racism. So when Deumig says that Upton is lazy you perceive it to be because he is an African American. Where as if Deumig says I am lazy then I perceive it is because I am fat. Either way Lazy is subjective. It means what ever the listener wants it to mean so if you hear lazy and think it is because he is an African American perhaps sir it is because you are the racist when in your subjective mind you connect lazy with African American.

Deumig is an idiot not a racist. There is a difference.

by PewterPirate55 on Aug 4, 2008 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Was that directed to me?

Cause I agree with you. I think very few of the BJ is lazy idiots are basing it on race.

by td32 on Aug 4, 2008 4:44 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

No it was directed at the asshat that decided to Obamanize this thread

How come you cant have a fucking discussion anymore in this country without someone pulling the race card, and recently the next thing that gets thrown out after that is Obamas’ name.

I hate the fact that because I am white middle aged and listen to AM talk radio, sports and politics that I am automatically considered a racist right wing nut job. These types of generalizations are the very types of generalizations that “Liberals” are trying to prevent from happening. But what they do not realize is that they are perpetuating new ones.

I am into politics and consider myself to be a conservative, but I know I am not a racist because I think McCain and Obama equally shitty candidates and will be voting for neither come November.

But if what I said earlier is true and Uptons BA goes up 50 points and He exceeds his home run totals by 15 for the next 4 years. Hell I would vote for Obama lol … I am a Rays fan and it would be the first time a politician actually delivered real fucking tangible results. /end rant

In summation no td that wasn’t directed at you it was directed at the asshole that completely thread jacked this thread and Obamanized it.

by PewterPirate55 on Aug 4, 2008 5:05 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Very few base it on race

A far greater number have it affect their judgment in ways that aren’t even self-cognizable. Doesn’t mean they’re racist at all, but it also doesn’t mean that it has no affect, just because people don’t think it has one.

Vogt early, Vogt often.

by Brickhaus on Aug 4, 2008 6:01 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

No

I really think you are missing the point and oversimplifying the issue. But there is little point in pursuing it further. If you do not see the fundamental issues involved, that overtly racist comments are irrelevant to the issue for example, I doubt any amount of discussion here will clarify them.

Racism is not purely subjective. It is objective historical reality and endemic in most societies-in fact all societies. To dismiss it as subjective or deny its baleful influence on thinking and discourse simply exacerbates the problem and tends to increase resentments and defensiveness rather than opening channels for addressing the issue directly.

Saying that Duemig’s statement that Upton is lazy has racist overtones is not calling Duemig a racist. It is simply pointing out that such labeling has a racist history and helps to perpetuate that history.

by bobr on Aug 4, 2008 5:21 PM EDT up reply actions   3 recs

And my response is that the people that those people are actively looking to find racism. Calling someone lazy is not in any way shape or form being racist. It has absolutely no racial undertones. Historical? Perhaps. But the blame lies at the feet of the person who connects lazy to race, and not the person calling a lazy person lazy.

by matthan on Aug 4, 2008 5:31 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

I 100% Agree.

I was talking to my buddy the other day, and we both agreed that blacks just should drink the same water as us. I’m not saying that they aren’t equal to us, or that they may be more naturally gifted at sports than us, but some people would go and call that racist.

People need to take things easy, not everything is a fight. Look at Alstott. Gruden told him that he shouldn’t carry the ball because he is white, but he said “I can’t even hear that” and now has the most TDs in Bucs History!

GO BUCS!

by AllstotFan40 on Aug 4, 2008 5:34 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Fine I guess no one can say anyone is lazy ...

Might as well bust out the N bomb then. Define Lazy in the dictionary…. I guarantee that it has nothing to do with being an African Americans. Just the same as it has nothing to do with Caucasians. It has more to do with lack of your best effort no matter what race that individual happens to be. Jeesh you say that someone is articulate and they are African American and you are labeled a closet racist because you are implying they are the only articulate African American. If you said that about a Caucasian person it is a compliment with no racial overtones about it. Call some one lazy and they happen to be an African American and you are labeled a closet racist too. Cant have your cake and eat it too. It seems like if racism is left subjective then you can define it anyway you want. This is the bullshit that is playing the race card.

This is why it will never be considered racism in my book either.

by PewterPirate55 on Aug 4, 2008 7:34 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't even want to bother to log in to my other account here.

Suffice it to say I would be pointing out the ignorance of this statement ironically.

This is typical “WHY CAN BLACKS CALL EACH OTHER THE N WORD!” logic

by Top Gun Numba 1 on Aug 4, 2008 7:37 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I guess with that logic

You can only say anything about anyone that is the same race as you are be it good or bad. Heaven forbid you compliment or state anything detrimental to someone of an opposite race because it is closet racism now.

by PewterPirate55 on Aug 4, 2008 9:11 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

You wanna know who is lazy

Patrick L. Kennedy

Top Josh Paul Pornos- Big Navi Stroking, 2pitchers1cup, BJ to the Balls, Riggans Your Thingans

BELIEVE in 08!

by SRQman on Aug 4, 2008 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Extremely Lazy.

"STP is me. He can do everything I can do." - R.J. Anderson

by P Brady on Aug 4, 2008 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

and hairy

Top Josh Paul Pornos- Big Navi Stroking, 2pitchers1cup, BJ to the Balls, Riggans Your Thingans

BELIEVE in 08!

by SRQman on Aug 4, 2008 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

He whines alot in person too.

by putupyourDUKES on Aug 4, 2008 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Not at all.....

Top Josh Paul Pornos- Big Navi Stroking, 2pitchers1cup, BJ to the Balls, Riggans Your Thingans

BELIEVE in 08!

by SRQman on Aug 4, 2008 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Seems to me...

BJ decided in the off season to try to cut down his K %. This year he has been working hard to do that and has had success. Maybe fewer homeruns have also resulted from this change.

The moral of the story here is that a young player who had great success last year in the bigs and with all the talent you could ever want is trying to get better and not resting on previous successes!! This is great news.

People who choose to will always find something to complain about…CC gets killed for the appearance he is not trying to improve his bunting, while BJ gets killed for some potential results of trying to improve his K rate.

by K-Rock on Aug 4, 2008 2:52 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

bossman's k rate at his age is amazing, most players his age are free swingers and dont really work on it but he does

what i am trying to say is that i think bossman is might not be putting up the same power numbers of the players of his age group and talent level, but in the long run bj has an advantage over them that he isnt just swinging for the fences and draws alot of walks and most times advances to 2nd on those by stealing 2nd, so those walks that he is getting most times turns into doubles

longo=ROY. friedman=Executive of the year. Maddon=Manager of the year. Rays=WS champs 08! fiddler cat=best way to show your excitement middle name lamar=success, last name lamar=fail, sorry chuck! pause not!

by RaysOfHope on Aug 4, 2008 3:12 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I Hate Blacks

...so this seems like a good thread to post in

by Top Gun Numba 1 on Aug 4, 2008 5:18 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Also, the conceit in the original article doesn't work.

Because I’ve seen BJ Upton, he exists. He has qualities that are clearly expressed, rather than attributed to him by millions of people.

by Top Gun Numba 1 on Aug 4, 2008 5:42 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't know about ya'll but..

I just don’t trust Upton. Or Crawford. Or Floyd. Or Jackson. Or Aybar, wait, is Aybar black?

by AllstotFan40 on Aug 4, 2008 5:27 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Race, politics and religion.. now, extra credit if someone can work in steroids and a Jackson vs. Sonnanstine debate seemlessly to the discussion.

by RATW on Aug 4, 2008 8:24 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Upton is valuable

as a hitter and a center fielder, but I fail to see the need to put the guy on a pedestal. I like him, and feel he is a victim of a struggling lineup. He’s being asked to do too much and sometimes I think we forget he is only in his 2nd full year. I’d like him a lot more as a lead off hitter, or perhaps somewhere down the lineup. Certainly not in the middle of the order though.

What I would really like to know is what happened between this year and last. His batting avg difference can pretty much be explained by BABIP. But what about the power? And that’s what I find frustrating. His performance last year suggested we had a legit middle of the order hitter in Upton. Now, not so much.

by RayFanNY on Aug 4, 2008 11:37 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Especially when they are extremely young, and flashed the power he did last season...

RayFanNY asks the million dollar question…what happened to his power. Not sure if he slightly changed his swing plane to cut down on K’s, but I’ve got to think his shoulder is impacting it.

by td32 on Aug 5, 2008 12:01 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

if BJ got his power back and slugged .500 instead of .400, he'd be one of the top dozen players in the game

as of now, he’s top 25 (not including pitchers)

not sure how many pedestals we have to give out, but there’s a good chance he deserves one.

my blog // calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy // past results do not guarantee future performance

by Sky Kalkman on Aug 5, 2008 10:51 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

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