Who is the Rays MVP?
by R.J. Anderson on Sep 12, 2008 8:00 AM EDT
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PrintA reader mentioned about two weeks ago that they would like to have this made into a front page poll so here it is. I don't want to steer votes, but honestly I'm not sure there's a clear winner between Carlos Pena, Evan Longoria, and B.J. Upton offensively/defensively.
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okay, I picked other
Jason Bartlett…
by PriceMultiCyYoungs on Sep 12, 2008 8:03 AM EDT reply actions
I voted Bartlett
Because I closed my eyes and though about Brendan Harris as our starting short stop all year. It made me cry.
by PriceMultiCyYoungs on Sep 12, 2008 9:41 AM EDT up reply actions
I had to vote Pena
In a second half where we’ve lost a lot of players to injury, Pena has been the man and has refused to let up. His attitude in infectious for the rest of the team and he plays 110% night in and night out.
It is really tough to single out one player on a team like this, but I don’t think we’re at where we are today without Pena’s performance in the 2nd half.
It is impossible to give more than 100%
by the very definition that is the most you can give.
Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind.
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 12, 2008 10:18 AM EDT up reply actions
So apparently you've never seen the greatest Simpsons episode in the history of mankind
MATTINGLY, I THOUGHT I TOLD YOU TO SHAVE THOSE SIDE BURNS.
Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind.
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 12, 2008 11:04 AM EDT up reply actions
Well, Mr. Burns had done it
The power plant had won it
With Roger Clemens clucking all the while
Mike Scioscia’s tragic illness made us smile
While Wade Boggs lay unconscious on the bar room tile
We’re Talkin’ Softball
From Maine to San Diego
Talkin’ softball
Mattingly and Canseco
Ken Griffey’s grotesquely swollen jaw
Steve Sax and his run-in with the law
We’re talkin’ Homer…
Ozzie, and the Straw
Family Guy > Simpsons
no debate.
Rays 2009 Slogan: "Come back with your shield or on it"
by PriceMultiCyYoungs on Sep 12, 2008 1:11 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
True
The Simpsons have been not funny for quite a long time. It will take years of not being funny for anybody to match them.
I'll give Family Guy more credit when it's still fresh and funny after 20 years.
But seeing as how they’ve already been canceled once, I don’t see them lasting that long.
Don’t get me wrong, I’ve got every season of Family Guy on my portable HDD, I just think The Simpsons trump it.
Dear god NO DAN JOHNSON - thebaddancingraysfan hours before DanJo hit a game tying HR off Papelbon.
Shirley you are joking
It is not even close unless you count the fact that FG strives to be a replica of the Simpsons with a bunch of references that are lame.
Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind.
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 12, 2008 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah I have just about all of those seasons and they still make me laugh my ass off
Even the newer ones though have at least one joke that makes me LOL which is about all I get out of a family guy episode (Not counting To Live and Die in Dixie). Plus with The Simpsons I never make a weird face like WTF did I just see when one of their jokes falls flat. Also, on a daily basis something will happen that reminds me of a Simpsons episode and I can laugh at it. And for the most part my friends get the joke as well.
Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind.
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 12, 2008 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions
I think its been 5 years or more
since I’ve laughed out loud when watching the Simpsons.
Rays 2009 Slogan: "Come back with your shield or on it"
by PriceMultiCyYoungs on Sep 12, 2008 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions
What I like more about FG is that
they push PC to a new level…I dont recall the Simpsons pushing that too much????
Rays 2009 Slogan: "Come back with your shield or on it"
by PriceMultiCyYoungs on Sep 12, 2008 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions
South Park must be your favorite show then.
Dear god NO DAN JOHNSON - thebaddancingraysfan hours before DanJo hit a game tying HR off Papelbon.
negative
Rays 2009 Slogan: "Come back with your shield or on it"
by PriceMultiCyYoungs on Sep 12, 2008 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions
i remember when the Simpsons was new back in elementary school
Bart Simpson’s “eat my shorts” line was WAY over the line.
not that I need a funny show to push the PC line
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
Shut up you whipper snapper
Back then, if we needed to call our parents after school, we had to use these public
phones that you actually had to feed a ‘quarter’ to in order to use. You kids and your new-fangled ‘cellular phones’.
Back then, we didn't have opposable thumbs
Your generation is just another victim of the evoloutions. Hooray neanderthalism!
Family Guy is good
but I cant put it below the Simpsons. Plus Futurama was good as well
In reference to how good the Steelers have been in their history: "No one is even close to them."- Steal Home
Other
Where MVP = Most valuable person
Andrew Friedman
- Garza/Bartlett trade
- Hinske pickup
- Calling up Evan earlier than scheduled
- Gabe Gross trade
- Chad Bradford trade
- Percy/Miller signings (they’ve STILL been better than what we had last year)
In terms of players, I have to go with Pena as well.
Vogt early, Vogt often.
you also have to throw in the mad dog
into the thing then if you think of Friedman… as he has got the players to play good. even though some calls i dont agree with at times, he has done some good moves as well.
That's who I voted for.
His leadership has been huge. He is not afraid to show his emotion out there and it forces everyone to be accountable. Plus, he purposely didn’t land that punch because he would be in jail right now for murder.
Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind.
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 12, 2008 10:20 AM EDT up reply actions
Longo
His play was MVP worthy, but importantly his arrival really changed the team.
What? Only subjective? No stats?
WIN SHARES
23 B.J. Upton
19 Carlos Pena
17 Evan Longoria
14 James Shields
9 J.P. Howell
8 Grant Balfour
others not listed that have more win shares than Howell/Balfour
18 Aki Iwamura (gold glove D?)
14 Dioner Navarro (his handling of staff can’t be ignored)
13 Scott Kazmir (despite missing month)
12 Matt Garza
11 Carl Crawford
11 Gabe Gross (yes, Gabe effin’ Gross has more WS than Howell or Balfour)
10 Edwin Jackson
10 Eric Hinske
10 Jason Bartlett
And for all the Sonnanstine sycophants out there he only has 8 win shares despite leading team in, you know, actual wins. fewer than 2 middle relievers, Howell and Wheeler (9)
there have been so many different players stepping in
that its hard. and what do you mean by win shares?
Well put Prof
but why the Sonnanstine hate? I would think two ultra-valuable relievers would have more win-shares than a #4 or 5 starter. Also, since when does MVP voting come down to rational, statistically-based thought? It’s all emotion and who had the most RBI’s, no?
Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind.
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 12, 2008 10:24 AM EDT up reply actions
well played
and there is no Sonnanstine hate…i love The Duke. i just don’t think he is as great as some make him out to be.
and next season i don’t see a spot for him on the roster. 3 starters are guaranteed + Price + Jackson has edge over Sonny.
In the bullpen 6 spots are already spoken for…the only spot that will be up for grabs is long reliever. Hammel? Niemann (out of options)? Sonnanstine (minor league options/decent trade value).
by The Professor on Sep 12, 2008 10:34 AM EDT up reply actions
Sonny v. Jackson
Has been debated Ad Nauseum. I think the conclusion is that both are capable ML starters, but not aces by any stretch, nor are they mere innings-eaters as they each have thrown as many marvelous starts as disasters this year. If I were their agent I would be quietly requesting a trade to the NL where each will have increased value. Trying to decide which one to keep may be folly, so I would trade each in separate deals designed to bring back a starting RF and other strong positional player prospects with an emphasis on defense.
Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind.
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 12, 2008 11:20 AM EDT up reply actions
i don't understand why people keep saying that pitchers will have more value in the NL
yes, their ERAs will drop and they will rate ahead of more pitchers in their league because the NL has a weaker crop of pitchers. but that doesn’t make them more valuable than they are right now.
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
by Sky Kalkman on Sep 12, 2008 12:04 PM EDT up reply actions
K-rate does not improve pitching to their counterpart 2-3 times a game.
Also, you have made an error in your statement. Logically, if they are among a weaker crop this gives them a comparative advantage which in turn makes them more valuable.
Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind.
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 12, 2008 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions
that headline was meant as a question
K-rate does not improve pitching to their counterpart 2-3 times a game?
Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind.
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 12, 2008 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions
yes, it improves, but that doesn't make a pitcher more valuable, because it's a superficial change
Let me elaborate on my point with Scott Kazmir, who doesn’t have the debate baggage of someone like Edwin or Sonny. Let’s say he’s a 3.50 ERA guy, pitching for the Rays in Tampa and against AL hitters. We can neutralize his ERA by accounting for the Rays fielders, the Trop, and the difference in hitting ability between the AL and NL. Let’s say his “new”, true-talent ERA is 3.40, or whatever. That’s his value — a 3.40 ERA pitcher compared to a replacement-level 6.00 ERA pitcher. Moving to the NL, his actual ERA would probably drop to, say, 3.00. But our theoretical replacement-level pitcher would also see his ERA drop so that Kaz’s advantage over the replacement-level pitcher is exactly the same. Kazmir has the same talent no matter who/where he pitches, meaning he has the same value, even if his observed stats are different, based on his fielders, ballpark, and opponents
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
I see your points, but look at a case like C. C. Sabathia
Tons of fun won the Cy last year for the Indians. As he started to round into form (pun intended) this season, he went to the NL where he has been absolutely dominant. The same could be said for Rich Harden. lgtRA for the AL is 4.73, for the NL 4.67. Individual examples, for sure, and Joe Blanton is an example of someone that didn’t, but IMO C. C. went from a top-30 pitcher to a top-3 pitcher. Again, I agree with your points, but I don’t see on an individual basis how you would value AL CC and NL CC equally.
Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind.
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 12, 2008 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Upside and velocity are the only arguments for keeping Edwin over Sonny.
The counter arguments have been made clear, and I’m not sure going to arb with Edwin will be beneficial to financial flexibility.
by R.J. Anderson on Sep 12, 2008 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Edwin + something
for Jayson Werth.
Rays 2009 Slogan: "Come back with your shield or on it"
by PriceMultiCyYoungs on Sep 12, 2008 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Edwin + Gibson
Yay!
Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind.
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 12, 2008 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Next time he faces Pelfry
I wouldn’t be suprised if he hits a homer, then charges the mound instead of circling the bases.
If Elijiah ever wore a tie he would look exactly like this guy:
Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind.
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 12, 2008 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Being called Donkey Kong is not racist.
That means you’re a f’n bad ass who happens to like bananas. Who doesn’t like bananas?
by R.J. Anderson on Sep 12, 2008 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions
No clue.
I just had nothing witty to reply with.
by R.J. Anderson on Sep 12, 2008 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Or getting hammered
Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind.
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 12, 2008 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Should we talk about another game, like GTA4, so that you can keep up?
I mean, I know Donkey Kong is old, so I don’t want to put too much undue strain on your young, naive mind.
Are we talking C.J. or Niko
I just wanna know what pics are off limits. Like with Niko I would never post a bottle of Vodka or a breadline, that is generalizing, something I just don’t do.
Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind.
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 12, 2008 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Thanks for knowing my intention and knowing that I
am not racist. Everytime I see Elijiah He reminds me of Donkey Kong angry and yelling things.
Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind.
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 12, 2008 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Wait a minute
Joe Maddon isn’t a bear ya f’n dumbshit.
Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind.
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 12, 2008 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions
exactly
Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind.
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 12, 2008 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions
we are outside the confines of a GDT
I would never say fuck
Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind.
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 12, 2008 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Nice.
I like how this thread suddenly turned off-topic in 3/4ths of the subthread.
by R.J. Anderson on Sep 12, 2008 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions
That's how we roll
Pay the threadjackers 100 million dollars and we will release the hostages from this thread.
My book's subtitle will be
How Fiddling Cats and Furries turned the Rays into Contenders
by R.J. Anderson on Sep 12, 2008 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm so happy that the area for reading on this subthread is pretty much too small for images
And that no one else is around.
Lets see
Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind.
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 12, 2008 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions
She can use my sac as a punching bag anyday.
Dear god NO DAN JOHNSON - thebaddancingraysfan hours before DanJo hit a game tying HR off Papelbon.
I thought your book was called
Cowboys Butts Drive Me Nuts
or whatever the name on that awesome Naimoli/Lamar read was
Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind.
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 12, 2008 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions
"that awesome "
Kissing up doesn’t work.
by R.J. Anderson on Sep 12, 2008 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions
I thought it was pretty good
Really dry though. If you had a picture of Lamar in a clown suit you might have gotten more interest.
Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind.
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 12, 2008 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Not possible
He laid the framework for the success we are achieving today. That outweighs any hilarious wardrobes.
Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind.
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 12, 2008 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions
You're very smart and good poster
by steve-o1285 on Sep 12, 2008 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
rec'd for honesty
Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind.
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 12, 2008 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh we get it
Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind.
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 12, 2008 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions
That better not be a rip on Tom Goodwin
or so help you. That man is a deity in other countries.
Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind.
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 12, 2008 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Chris Berman sucks
Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind.
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 12, 2008 3:09 PM EDT up reply actions
You don't like the morphed photo of
Koufax/Kazmir? It’s gotta be up there with calling Joe Maddon an f’ing bearface.
Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind.
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 12, 2008 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Work monitor has monster resolution
So I’m still seeing some thread extension, but I’m just about out of room here.
Oh thank Beejus
Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind.
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 12, 2008 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions
I could never tell who it was.
It looked like Kazmir, but it wasn’t.
by R.J. Anderson on Sep 12, 2008 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Amazing how similar their facial structure is
Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind.
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 12, 2008 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Yup
Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind.
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 12, 2008 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions
B+PR=R?
Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind.
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 12, 2008 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions
best part was after Dukes was barking at him
the next tim up Pelfrey put on in his ribs and the bitch walked down to 1st with his mouth shut.
Rays 2009 Slogan: "Come back with your shield or on it"
by PriceMultiCyYoungs on Sep 12, 2008 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions
He needs to come home
Enough of this running away nonsense.
Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind.
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 12, 2008 2:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Since we're already OT,
I thought this was hilariously unprovoked:
About RJ: oh i agree, hes very smart and good poster. im just sayin, seems like a lot of ideas originated from him according to him.
Dear god NO DAN JOHNSON - thebaddancingraysfan hours before DanJo hit a game tying HR off Papelbon.
Tyler alerted me of that.
It’s not like I don’t have an archive or a website where most of my ideas are published one way or the other. I don’t really recall taking credit for a lot of ideas either, but whatever.
by R.J. Anderson on Sep 12, 2008 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions
It beats people campaigning to see who can get more votes
Longo or Pena when both are superawesome.
Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind.
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 12, 2008 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions
BS this has been my name since I came over from the
St. Pete times board
Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind.
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 12, 2008 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions
The St. Pete Times board and your move were my ideas.
by R.J. Anderson on Sep 12, 2008 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Too bad there may have only been like 6 of us over there
but it was intelligencia all around. You wouldn’t even have achieved good poster status.
Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind.
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 12, 2008 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm just happy we have a new joke to run with.
Although I’m sure that was your idea all along.
Dear god NO DAN JOHNSON - thebaddancingraysfan hours before DanJo hit a game tying HR off Papelbon.
I should probably come out of RBB retirement to tell him to keep my name out of his posts.
But frankly I’ll take the press.
by R.J. Anderson on Sep 12, 2008 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions
I represented.
Dear god NO DAN JOHNSON - thebaddancingraysfan hours before DanJo hit a game tying HR off Papelbon.
That was my idea.
We shall beat this one to death by shortening it to TWMI.
by R.J. Anderson on Sep 12, 2008 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Yet another flawless idea.
Dear god NO DAN JOHNSON - thebaddancingraysfan hours before DanJo hit a game tying HR off Papelbon.
don't you mean
TWRJAI
Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind.
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 12, 2008 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions
I ate some tacos earlier.
but TWRJAI.
…I like this.
Dear god NO DAN JOHNSON - thebaddancingraysfan hours before DanJo hit a game tying HR off Papelbon.
TWMI works fantastically though
as long as people are cool with taking credit for absurd things.
Which I totally am.
Dear god NO DAN JOHNSON - thebaddancingraysfan hours before DanJo hit a game tying HR off Papelbon.
See? Awesome.
I’m so glad TWMI.
Dear god NO DAN JOHNSON - thebaddancingraysfan hours before DanJo hit a game tying HR off Papelbon.
Well done
taking stuff back for the people WAMI.
Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind.
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 12, 2008 5:58 PM EDT up reply actions
TWMI will be a dead meme within a series.
by R.J. Anderson on Sep 12, 2008 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions
If thats the case
then it was definitely your idea.
Dear god NO DAN JOHNSON - thebaddancingraysfan hours before DanJo hit a game tying HR off Papelbon.
by Vin on Sep 12, 2008 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
A = Anderson
At least I thought so. Awesome could work though.
Dear god NO DAN JOHNSON - thebaddancingraysfan hours before DanJo hit a game tying HR off Papelbon.
Not the only arguments
He does have actual in-game effectiveness on his side as well. I realize that’s not a good argument for you, but it’s a good argument for some, and occasionally, a pitcher has qualities that can’t be statistically quantified until you’ve established a pattern over the course of several years.
Vogt early, Vogt often.
sorry to be curt, but Win Shares are crap
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
by Sky Kalkman on Sep 12, 2008 10:50 AM EDT up reply actions
eloquent
Nobody said they were the be-all, end-all.
just pointing out that the above list of options was far from complete and no matter what people think of the middle relievers this season, no single middle reliever should be considered for MVP of anything.
Now…I would be willing to accept an argument that the entire middle relief corps deserve the MVP. But any single middle reliever just doesn’t play enough to be considered the MVP.
besides, if one is going to look at stats, there really are not very many options for comparing pitchers to hitters. prefer VORP? WARP? I am sure they will say something to similar to the WS numbers.
by The Professor on Sep 12, 2008 11:01 AM EDT up reply actions
i agree no single middle reliever is worthy. good point.
VORP isn’t bad, and I prefer it to Win Shares, even though it doesn’t have fielding. WARP is pretty bad, about on the level of Win Shares. I posted Justin’s numbers below, which I really like.
Instead of apologizing for being curt, I should have just not been curt in the first place. My bad.
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
by Sky Kalkman on Sep 12, 2008 11:14 AM EDT up reply actions
VORP is not nearly as good as it was.
You have to try and define replacement players and all that jazz. I would have to agree with the Justin support.
by R.J. Anderson on Sep 12, 2008 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Win shares suck.
I provide stats everyday, I wanted to see what the readers thought, I gave my answer with Pena/Upton/Longoria.
by R.J. Anderson on Sep 12, 2008 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions
And for all the Sonnanstine sycophants out there he only has 8 win shares despite leading team in, you know, actual wins. fewer than 2 middle relievers, Howell and Wheeler (9)
Tap dancing Jesus this is stupid. For one, using WARP, VORP, whatever for pitchers is not smart, that’s the problem with trying to establish players as “_ wins better” on a general scale and a reason I tend to look more so at the processes than the results. That may take a deeper understanding of what makes a player successful and good, but shit, if I’m going to write about baseball as much as I do I’m going to understand what I’m talking about. So here:
First isolating his performances: 3.88 FIP, 3.88 tRA (27th in the damn league)
17.1 LD, 42.3 GB, 0.98 HR/9, 5.55 K/9, 1.54 BB/9.
Please do explain how Sonnanstine is less valuable than Dan Wheeler, otherwise I think you just discovered why Win Shares has flaws.
by R.J. Anderson on Sep 12, 2008 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
rec'd for "Tap dancing Jesus"
Dear god NO DAN JOHNSON - thebaddancingraysfan hours before DanJo hit a game tying HR off Papelbon.
i think you HAVE to put pitchers on an "___ wins better" scale
that’s the only way to compare starters and relievers and pitchers to hitters. you need a common scale.
now, WS and WARP are definitely not the answer, and I’m not too familiar with pitcher VORP. you need to separate out pitcher performance from ballpark/fielding/luck/whatever, which is why I like Justin’s FIP-RAR and why a tRA-RAR (TRARAR?!?) would work. in general, you want to compare a pitcher’s skill to replacement level and multiply by innings. for relievers, you need to account for leverage. in equation form:
(repERA – playerERA) / 9 * IP * leverage index
where ERA shouldn’t be ERA, but something like FIP, xFIP, tRA, composite ERA, etc.
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
Including leverage index is a must for relievers.
What are your thoughts on PRAA and BRAA using tRA and wOBA?
by R.J. Anderson on Sep 12, 2008 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions
BRAA should be pretty much what Justin does, but different baseline, so it's good
PRAA should also be pretty decent, although it’s not good for comparing starters to relievers because the replacement level is so different
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
And it doesn't factor in LI.
Justin’s look good, but for the time I don’t see one definitive wins above metric that I can get in line with when comparing pitchers to position players.
by R.J. Anderson on Sep 12, 2008 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree
I unashamedly pimp his offensive stats, but his pitching stats aren’t as good. Still useful, though.
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
That's more of my problem with wins for pitchers when being compared to wins for position players than the actual concept
Right now there’s simply nothing that gives us a clear picture when we do make those comparisons.
by R.J. Anderson on Sep 12, 2008 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Surprised Longo
Is the early leader. If I had a 2nd place vote, Howell would get it since he hasn’t lost a decision and been the real stallion of the bullpen.
Joe
Seriously...
How many times has JP come in this season and nobody had a “Percival” or “Hammel” type reaction. Howell has been a rock all season long and has been the most consistent pitcher for the Rays all year, including the starters.
www.citadel-insurance.com
been to many
As it has changed over time, no one player has carried a team. Its been different players steping up which is amazing and most important its hard to play against. As you never know who will step up for the Game tieing or game winning hits or strike out or d-fense plays.
Had to go with Longo
Although I had to think hard between him and Pena. I just think this team changed completely when Longo arrived.
From Justin's stats through September 5th
Runs Player
39 Longoria
39 Shields
38 Upton
33 Pena
31 Sonnanstine
30 Garza
29 Kazmir
25 Navarro
22 Iwamura
17 Crawford
16 Aybar
15 Balfour
14 Gross
14 Jackson
13 Hinske
11 Howell
10 Floyd
10 Bartlett
6 Miller
5 Baldelli
4 Wheeler
2 DiFelice
2 Salas
2 Birkins
2 Reyes
1 Bradford
0 Riggans
0 Zobrist
0 Ryu
0 Glover
0 Dohmann
0 Cannizaro
-2 Gomes
-2 Haynes
-2 Brignac
-2 Niemann
-3 Johnson
-4 Ruggiano
-6 Hammel
-9 Percival
For the pitchers, I’m quoting fielding-independent runs prevented. Justin also posts a number that uses a pitcher’s actual events, but is different from ERA because it removes any clutchiness. Here it is, although I don’t like it as much (although some of you will):
40 Garza
39 Shields
31 Kazmir
21 Sonnanstine
20 Balfour
18 Wheeler
18 Jackson
17 Howell
8 Percival
4 Birkins
4 Miller
2 Reyes
2 Bradford
1 Ryu
0 Salas
-2 Dohmann
-2 Niemann
-5 Hammel
-5 Glover
If you want a number based on ERA, do this: (5.75 – ERA) * IP / 9
What clinches the Longoria over Pena for me is that third base is a much more difficult/important defensive position than first base. Both are very good hitters and good fielders for their position. But replacing Longoria with a replacement-level third baseman would hurt more than replacing Pena with a replacement-level first baseman.
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
also, that's not including leverage for relievers
for Percival, double his total. for wheeler and howell and balfour, multiply by about 1.5 (a little less, actually)
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
by Sky Kalkman on Sep 12, 2008 11:12 AM EDT up reply actions
looking at the poll results
Shields and Upton deserve more votes and Howell is way overrated.
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
Don't forget that these votes are for first place ONLY
Doesn’t mean people don’t undervalue Upton, it just means Pena/Longoria get more first place votes.
I agree, Howell is way overrated. Relievers just don’t deserve MVP type considerations.
i see your point about voting for first-place only
but given my personal view that Shields and Upton are in Longoria’s territory and Pena is a step down, i would think Upton and Shields should have at least as many votes as Pena.
yeah, the closest a reliever can get to team MVP is probably Joakim Soria for the Royals, who have nobody with much value except Greinke
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
by Sky Kalkman on Sep 12, 2008 12:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Pena is clutch.
Or something like that.
by R.J. Anderson on Sep 12, 2008 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Fair enough.
Although I would make the point that Pena’s homerun in Boston is gaining him more votes than if this poll were posted a week ago.
by R.J. Anderson on Sep 12, 2008 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm not sure Upton is being misrepresented.
As stated, this is basically first place only, and offensively Pena/Longoria look better, defensively both look good (Longoria is above average, Pena is right around average) so if you’re only voting one of those three it’s probably Evan or Carlos due to the offensive edge.
by R.J. Anderson on Sep 12, 2008 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions
they all look good relative to position
but BJ’s looking good as a center fielder while Pena’s looking good as a first baseman. imagine Carlos in center… actually, don’t.
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
And he wears a belt and his hat at a proper angle.
by R.J. Anderson on Sep 12, 2008 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions
I like to picture King Felix wearing like a tuxedo t-shirt
You know cuz its like he’s saying he’s formal, but he’s also here to party.
Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind.
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 12, 2008 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I find it funny that the M's use that compass as their logo
since they have seemingly lost their way
Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind.
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 12, 2008 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions
WPA/LI doesn't care about clutch
it’s pure linear weights, but changes the weights based on situation
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
holy crap
Pena dominates WPA (move the decimal place one spot to the right to convert from wins to runs):
+3.4 Pena
+0.8 Longoria
+0.7 Crawford
+0.5 Upton
Bartlett is awful, more than 2 wins of WPA below average
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
Hows about you let everyone vote the way they want
It’s MVP not a real award based on science. The MVP award means nothing to me anymore although I do value it more than Gold Gloves. How bout we just say that Jeter wins everything this year and call it a day.
Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind.
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 12, 2008 11:26 AM EDT up reply actions
how about i'm not telling anyone how to vote
given my personal views on who’s help this team succeed, the players I mentioned are getting less love than I think they should. just an observation
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
by Sky Kalkman on Sep 12, 2008 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions
cool
Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind.
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 12, 2008 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions
The Real Beej was robbed....
He is the best player on this team and the only one close with an argument is Longoria.
Mound Visit
I'm curious why Howell leads Balfour in votes 21-4
Anyone who voted for Howell want to explain? (And I’m being serious, not snarky.)
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
6 wins, 0 losses, 1 blown save
(only important for MVP consideration)
Dear god NO DAN JOHNSON - thebaddancingraysfan hours before DanJo hit a game tying HR off Papelbon.
by Vin on Sep 12, 2008 1:11 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Pena Pena Pena
I like Longoria, I just think Pena is better.
I actually like our team with the focus on Pena and Aybar instead anyway.
August was a magical month to be a Rays fan.
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