This Isn't an Issue
I had a conversation with a reader last night about Jason Hammel. Essentially he said the Rays needed to upgrade that mop-up role in case of an emergency. He went on to ask who would come in if a starter in the playoffs couldn't get out of the third which lead to an argument on whether that was even a relevant scenario.
Yes, it's possible a pitcher gets bombed in the playoffs but I went through the gamelogs to find the incidents where a Rays pitcher went less than four innings. It's happened six times all season. Here's the thing about Hammel, no he is not good, but currently he is used in situations less tense than every other reliever on the roster except Juan Salas. Hammel pitches once a week and the game is usually out of reach one way or the other. Yes last night was nasty and memorable because he gave up a load of runs but should come as no surprise to people who have paid attention to his non-ERA numbers, after all both his FIP and tRA are over 5.
So our mop-up reliever is the worst pitcher on staff and we're supposed to be upset about this? Yes David Price and almost all of Durham's rotation would be better, but Hammel's role is less than vital on this team and it's likely he won't be on the post-season roster to begin with.
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118 comments
Comments
In the playoffs..
you conserve your best arms for starting duty and the toughest moments in the game. If we are getting crushed in the 3rd inning then we should promote a guy from rookie ball if we were allowed.
by matthan on Sep 5, 2008 2:45 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
how long of a look-see will Price get in the bigs if the Bulls go all the way, and what is up with Price's inning limit?
9 = 8
by walkoffwalk on Sep 5, 2008 2:56 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
if the team is getting crushed in the third inning (5-0, say), there's a small chacne the team will win anyway.
but, because it’s definitely not worth throwing in the towel, the Rays actually WILL have plenty of options:
Edwin Jackson (or Sonny if they move the wrong guy to the bullpen) — there are only a few guys in the pen who are definitely better pitchers than him and he’ll be more than ready to go five innings. Plus, in a playoff game, you can certainly blow out your pen, pitching Howell, Balfour, Percival, Wheeler, Miller, Jackson/Sonny, Bradford an inning each. Every one of them can pitch an inning two days in a row and most of them can go three in a row. Three in a row is the max in the playoffs.
So, in summary, it doesn’t really matter who pitches in a blowout. Plus, the Rays will have a starter in the bullpen. And finally, even if everyone in the bullpen has to pitch an inning, that’s not a big problem.
by Sky Kalkman on Sep 5, 2008 3:14 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
no one said get upset about it,
but if there is a better option available we should do it. why not have the best players on the team?
by davidsmarch on Sep 5, 2008 3:21 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
"and we're supposed to be upset about this? "
who said to get upset?
by davidsmarch on Sep 5, 2008 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hammel probably won't even make the postseason roster.
So I wouldn’t worry about it too much…
by Peter Bendix on Sep 5, 2008 3:35 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
What you say may be true
however, why was he’protected’ all year in fear of losing him if he was sent down?
He has NO value to the Rays in the future, and i find it hard to believe that Reyes isn’t a better option
by sternfan1 on Sep 5, 2008 3:53 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
And an aside to some on here
while i have found many of the “new fangled” stats very telling and useful, it’s still a game of throw the ball, catch the ball, hit the ball
When some here find ONE stat and build a case for or against a player, i feel is a “misuse” of statistics
by sternfan1 on Sep 5, 2008 3:57 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I feel you're a misuse of space when you take three comments to say the same thing.
by R.J. Anderson on Sep 5, 2008 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Byrd and Hammel
are both RHPs
ENd of comparison
by sternfan1 on Sep 5, 2008 4:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You have a hard on for Paul Byrd, it's okay.
by R.J. Anderson on Sep 5, 2008 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I hate Byrd, but know he can still win
as he has since the ASG
by sternfan1 on Sep 5, 2008 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
His team can still win.
When will you realize that Paul Byrd is only winning because his team is scoring 5+ runs per game?
by R.J. Anderson on Sep 5, 2008 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So what about his last 5 starts with the Indians?
Nothing to say about that?
by sternfan1 on Sep 5, 2008 4:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What about his first 17 starts with the Indians?
What about his barely over .500 record? What about his four double digit losing seasons in six seasons of 25+ starts?
by R.J. Anderson on Sep 5, 2008 4:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Here he is from 7/4
is this not better than Sonny or Jackson over the same time?
by sternfan1 on Sep 5, 2008 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Edwin and Sonnanstine are better than Byrd.
by R.J. Anderson on Sep 5, 2008 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
In the time frame we're speaking of
Sonny 4-3 4.62 ERA
Jackson 6-3 4.04 ERA
Byrd 7-2 3.65 ERA
by sternfan1 on Sep 5, 2008 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
in fact in that time frame
only Kazmir has a lower ERA than Byrd, and Byrd has more wins than any of them
by sternfan1 on Sep 5, 2008 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This tells me absolutely nothing about any of the pitchers.
by R.J. Anderson on Sep 5, 2008 4:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why not just admit
Byrd has pitched well in the time frame i’ve examined?
by sternfan1 on Sep 5, 2008 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Would you find something good
if a SP weny 1-9 with a 8.95 ERA?
I’m sure if needed you would find some stat, like K/9 that you’d hloat over and make us all think he’s the next Nolan Ryan
by sternfan1 on Sep 5, 2008 4:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
K/9 is a pretty basic stat.
I don’t even consider records when talking about pitcher talent. Is that really a hard concept?
by R.J. Anderson on Sep 5, 2008 4:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes it is and here's why
every game is different and dictates how you pitch
in close games you pitch more careful, in lopsided ones you let the hitter get himself out
look i agree with stats, but i can’t argue with a pitcher who wins 50-60% of his starts
by sternfan1 on Sep 5, 2008 4:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly my point of you RJ, you find a stat and then fit it to your liking
when others show you stats that prove you wrong, you demean the stat
by sternfan1 on Sep 5, 2008 4:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't fit any stats to my liking.
I just try to avoid using shitty stats. Why is that so hard to understand?
by R.J. Anderson on Sep 5, 2008 4:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
listen
why not just post Byrd’s K/BB or something else simple and not ERA or W-L over the time frame you’re talking about.
if Byrd actually did pitching better, your point is made. if he was still the same crappy pitcher buy got a bit lucky, then we also learn something. and, either way, five games of good pitching does not a good pitcher make. (same for five games of bad pitching.)
by Sky Kalkman on Sep 5, 2008 5:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What upsets me is Maddon's loyalty to his players ( as bad as it sounds)
While it can be a very comfortable situation as a player, it drives us fans crazy. He held on for way to long before releasing Gary Glover and Al Reyes and is doing the same thing with Jason Hammel. I don’t give a rats ass that Hammel has been with the club all season. IMO, the Rays need to go with the BEST 25 man roster that they can field when we make the playoffs. If he stays with Hammel and keeps him on the 25 man come playoff time, I am gonna be pissed. Mop up duty or every day player aside, Maddon has an obligation to make sure that every player on that roster is the best man for the job.
by Rays Rule on Sep 5, 2008 4:12 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Maddon does not make decisions because he is loyal to his players.
He makes them because he recognizes two things. One that short term failure does not necessarily preclude long term usefullness. And two that there are factors in evaluating players that may not be obvious to every fan. That is, watching them close up with a practiced eye, he may see skills we fail to see.
As R.J. says, he does not make personnel decisions. The issue is whether he misuses Hammel or anyone else on the roster, and anyone would be hard put to demonstrate that he is not using Hammel exactly for the purpose Jason is intended.
Since July 4, Hammel has been in 18 games before last night. Only 4 times was he brought in with less than a 5 run differential. Once it was 4-2 against Cliff Lee and in 3 innings he gave up 1 run which may have made it tougher on the Rays but probably meant nothing. Once he got a hold in a 6-4 win when he went 2/3 inning with 1 BB. And the other two were in extra innings when he got a 3 inning win and a loss. In the other 14 his job was mop-up and he did it just fine, saving the bullpen by finishing the game 11 times. In those 18 appearances, his ERA dropped from 4.88 to 4.12.
Nonetheless, Hammel has not been a good pitcher. His numbers demonstrate that as does observation. He misses his spots too much and walks too many, strikes out too few and is prone to the long ball. He is the 12th pitcher on a 12 man staff doing what most 12th men do. I am not so sure that someone else is an upgrade, because you do not want Price or Talbot or anyone else rotting in the bullpen. You want them to get regular work, and whoever replaces Hammel would not.
It is not always a good idea to have the “better” player replace someone else, not if the role does not suit that player. Sometimes the best man for the job is not necessarily the best player.
One more thing; on this and other sites fans have demanded, ardently demanded, that the Rays jettison each of the following players: Floyd, Aybar, Gross. I don’t mean demanded as they have about Upton or in a trade as has been suggested in the case of Hinske or with some mild irritation as with Riggans. I mean with absolute certainty that each is a waste of space or that someone else in the system (Dan Johnson, Ruggiano, F. Perez) is clearly better. Over the past few years we have seem the same demands regarding Camp, Stokes, Waechter et al, each of whom has now tasted occasional success elsewhere. Maddon was not being loyal to them; he was trying to make use of the talent they had as best he could. It was correct to move them, but while here it was also correct to find some role for them and to focus on nurturing their talent, not obsessing over their weaknesses.
by bobr on Sep 5, 2008 5:12 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I'm guessing he's off the 25-man roster anyway
If they do the David Price switcheroo, someone’s going to need to be left off. Miller’s actually been pitching well lately, so I doubt it’s him. Hammel’s the only legitimate alternative.
Vogt early, Vogt often.
by Brickhaus on Sep 5, 2008 5:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Playoff roster I mean
Not 25-man roster
Vogt early, Vogt often.
by Brickhaus on Sep 5, 2008 5:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hi...I'm Jason Hammel of the Tampa Bay Rays...
I don’t chew, I don’t dip…and I don’t keep the ball in the ball park…
by death taxes and longoria on Sep 5, 2008 4:25 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
JASON HAMMEL PUTS THE TEAM IN A POSTITION TO WIN
by Top Gun Numba 1 on Sep 5, 2008 4:39 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Another beauty
Remember his one hitter v Jays?
by sternfan1 on Sep 5, 2008 4:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
recd i cant stand jason hammel at all, he is almost as worse as boof bonser
i cant wait until david price kicks him off the team
Evan Longoria=ROY. Andrew Friedman=Executive of the year. Joe Maddon=Manager of the year. David Price= the next best pitcher TB Rays fan 2002-the day i die!
by RaysOfHope on Sep 5, 2008 9:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The mop-up reliever role is not a necessary one on a baseball team.
The Rays have enough quality pitchers between their staff and AAA that this really shouldn’t be questioned. He’s the worst pitcher on the staff and the guy who pitches only during garbage time. I’d rather not have a garbage time pitcher at all and have one more ‘useful’ reliever.
And I’ve hated Hammel pretty much since he got scared that he was going to lose his spot in the rotation when Kaz got off the DL and he went and took a dump on the mound against the Yankees.
by kericr on Sep 5, 2008 4:53 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
BREAKING NEWS 2013
Greg Maddux rejected by HOF voters
when asked why all voters pointed to was his FIP and tRA were not what they were looking for
by sternfan1 on Sep 5, 2008 5:02 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Without looking I'm going to guess that Greg Maddux has excellent FIP and tRA
I’m sure one of these nerds will look it up and validate me.
by Top Gun Numba 1 on Sep 5, 2008 5:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Where is user "P Brady" when you need him?
by R.J. Anderson on Sep 5, 2008 5:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Choking on a dick probably.
Who is “P Brady”?
by Top Gun Numba 1 on Sep 5, 2008 5:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maddux's tRA is bad this year, but besides that has been good.
As for FIP: 3.25 for his Career. Holy shit.
RJ ANDERSON IS THE SECRET POLICE HALP.
by P Brady on Sep 5, 2008 5:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes but not as good as the forgettable
Gustav Leibowitz who toiled in relative obscurity for 8 teams in 10 yerars
by sternfan1 on Sep 5, 2008 5:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Is this some kind of anti-semetic joke?
by Top Gun Numba 1 on Sep 5, 2008 5:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why does your made-up name have to be jewish?
by Top Gun Numba 1 on Sep 5, 2008 5:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I basically only know that one reference? I've never really heard howard stern
by Top Gun Numba 1 on Sep 5, 2008 5:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i've been a fan since he came to CLE
in ’92 when i lived there
i still listen
by sternfan1 on Sep 5, 2008 5:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would hope so
or that username is really unfortunate
by Top Gun Numba 1 on Sep 5, 2008 5:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You know who else toiled in relative obscurity for eight teams in 10 years?
by kericr on Sep 5, 2008 5:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
In all fairness Bye Bye Birdy was a superb musical...
by Top Gun Numba 1 on Sep 5, 2008 5:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
As a kid i saw the movie when it came out
Ann-Margaret, Dick Van Dyke
by sternfan1 on Sep 5, 2008 5:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ruth has a career FIP of 2.81
Should have been kept a starter.
RJ ANDERSON IS THE SECRET POLICE HALP.
by P Brady on Sep 5, 2008 5:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I know TG#1 got this.
Not so sure about you Sternfan.
by kericr on Sep 5, 2008 5:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
this is one of the most hilarious arguments use by people who dislike advanced stats
you actually see it quite a lot. and nine times out of ten, the players they choose are actually really really good in the stats they choose.
by Sky Kalkman on Sep 5, 2008 5:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dinner with wife tonite
C’mon ANdy
You Are Due
by sternfan1 on Sep 5, 2008 5:22 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
You fail at the "reply" function.
by Patrick L. Kennedy on Sep 5, 2008 5:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not replying to anything though.
Just lauging at the quick and mass censorship that just happened.
The real loss is that my quip about Pearl Harbor resentment is lost for the ages
by Top Gun Numba 1 on Sep 5, 2008 5:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's only censorship if:
1. You’re not a moderator.
2. You refresh the window.
by Patrick L. Kennedy on Sep 5, 2008 5:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I refresh my windows because it's sterile and I like the taste.
by kericr on Sep 5, 2008 5:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
HAHAHA OH WOW
Oh wait, not me
Vogt early, Vogt often.
by Brickhaus on Sep 5, 2008 5:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
1) I'm not a moderator
2) I refreshed the window
ERGO…
by Top Gun Numba 1 on Sep 5, 2008 5:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Or if you come in late...
If that ain’t a Jason Hammel hanging curveball, I don’t know what is
by ReasonableDoubt on Sep 5, 2008 6:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What's going on with Morlan?
Haven’t heard much about him lately
by mittens on Sep 5, 2008 5:27 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Montgomery's season ended
And he’s lost some of his luster. Injured much of the year, still hasn’t developed much of a second pitch, fastball sits closer to 90 than 95 these days. In other words, the same pitcher we traded for.
Vogt early, Vogt often.
by Brickhaus on Sep 5, 2008 5:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
PLAYOFFS = 4 STARTERS
OK. Hate to break up the hate-fest…
but in the playoffs a team only uses 4 starters. if somebody gets knocked out of a game in the 3rd or 4th inning, the teams 5th starter will come in. the 5th starter takes on the role of emergency long-dude. In this case, that is probably Sonnanstine. Hammel is an afterthought. He only comes in if the game is 12-1 in the 9th inning.
That is why we call him “THE GRIM REAPER”…He should only come in if death is imminent.
by The Professor on Sep 6, 2008 12:31 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Thank you for stating the obvious.
I would have no idea how playoff rotations worked otherwise.
by R.J. Anderson on Sep 6, 2008 12:52 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Plus Sonnanstine should not be our fifth starter.
He is better than Edwin and it’s not even close.
by R.J. Anderson on Sep 6, 2008 12:53 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

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