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Rickey and Rice

It was pretty much a forgone conlcusion that Rickey was getting in to the Hall on his first try.  He is generally considered the best leadoff hitter in history.  But here's what I find odd - What did Jim Rice do in the last year to raise his Hall credentials?  How could a sports writer not feel that he was eligible last year and change his vote this year?  Did Rice hit a few more HR's when no one was looking?  The guy hasn't played in a LONG time so what could possibly have sent the percentage of "yes" votes over the 75% mark?  Yes, I get that the Hall of Fame is totally subjective and to look for reason or objectivity is futile, but it's just bothering me more than usual today. 

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That's one of the many issues with HOF voting.

If you get decent votes your first year, it’s almost a guarantee that you’re in at some point.

by R.J. Anderson on Jan 12, 2009 2:59 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I think you can make a compelling case that he's the least worthy of his own outfield.

Which would suggest that unless both Lynn and Evans are in, then no Rice shouldn’t be.

I’m disappointed that Raines didn’t get in yet Rice did. Oh well.

by R.J. Anderson on Jan 12, 2009 4:20 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

well

Mattingly got more than Rice in his first year.

that said, Mattingly is a even worse candidate than Rice. if anyone should be feeling screwed, it’s Dave Parker.

by RollingWave on Jan 16, 2009 4:40 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

But here’s what I find odd – What did Jim Rice do in the last year to raise his Hall credentials?

Nothing, but that is how the HOF works. You wait your turn, and then the pompous sports writers deem you worthy in your final year. As RJ mentioned, you need a few votes your first year to eventually make it.

My best game plan is to sit on the bench and call out specific instructions like 'C'mon Boog,' 'Get ahold of one, Frank,' or 'Let's go, Brooks.' -Earl Weaver

by Baltimo on Jan 12, 2009 3:08 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I think it's a bad choice, but how can you argue with this guy

Anyway, as I was lying in the puddle, I think I may have found a way for us to get Bonds and Griffey, and we wouldn't have to give up that much.

~George Costanza~

by Sandy Kazmir on Jan 12, 2009 3:32 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

GOOD GOD! I ...can't....look....away....

Regressing to the mean streets of St. Pete

by stpetelawyer on Jan 12, 2009 3:47 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Actually, while I do not think he belongs

one argument I disagree with is that voters should change their minds in voting for the Hall of Fame. It has nothing to do with Rice becoming better after retirement, but rather with the voters reviewing their reasoning and coming to different conclusions.

After all, isn’t that what the point is in promoting Blyleven, and I hope Raines. I want to see both in, and I want to see McGwire and probably Trammel in as well. None of them are getting better, but I hope the voters will recognize their achievements in time.

By the way, I am not so naive as to think that the reason for changes is entirely or even primarily due to rethinking. I recognize other factors such as who else is on the ballot and probably all sorts of irrelevant factors enter into the changes of mind. But regardless, it is good that the voters will change their votes.

by bobr on Jan 12, 2009 5:05 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Mark McGwire's achievements have been realized

that isnt stopping him from getting in. Whats stopping him is everyone knows he took steroirds, and everyone agrees that his numbers are inflated because of them.

by Rays4242 on Jan 13, 2009 4:46 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

No

not everyone agrees his numbers are inflated because of them. In fact, aside from Andro which was legal at the time, I am not even sure that everyone knows he took steroids.

Actually, what I think is primary in many voters’ decision is their notion that he disgraced himself before Congress by refusing to discuss the past. In my view, he was absolutely right in refusing to do so and the only disgrace was on the headline hunting, pandering politicians who called him and sought to increase their profiles by appearing to be outraged. But fans become sheep when something becomes the “way to think”. So “we all know” now? Bull. We don’t know a damn thing.

by bobr on Jan 13, 2009 5:31 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

I think you're wrong on this one.

There are three reasons I’ve seen stated by voters for why they aren’t voting for McGwire:

1) His achievements weren’t good enough. This is probably true for 10 – 20% of voters, but another 10 – 20$ are saying this because then they don’t look like hypocrites when they vote for Bonds or Sosa.

2) He’s a known or supposed juicer, and the voter has decided not to vote for any of these guys. I wouldn’t be surprised if there are enough of these that it keeps all the juicers out, at least initially. There may be some people who will be more willing to forgive if he comes clean, but I haven’t read this from anyone.

3) McGwire, without having juiced, wouldn’t have done enough to get into the Hall. Power was the biggest part of his game, and power is what the voters (incorrectly) view the steroids as helping most. Most of the arguments I’ve seen have been along these lines.

I haven’t seen any article saying no on McGwire because he didn’t come clean in front of Congress. It’s more along the lines that he would have come clean if he wasn’t using, or if he was only using andro, so pleading the fifth provides evidence that he indeed did take something stronger than what was a legal supplement at the time.

Vogt early, Vogt often.

by Brickhaus on Jan 13, 2009 8:43 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

You may be right.

My primary objection is to the statement that “Whats stopping him is everyone knows he took steroirds, and everyone agrees that his numbers are inflated because of them.” While many voters may think that way and are voting accordingly (and stupidly in my view), there are plenty of people who do not think steroids account for his power surge, others who do not assume he was a juicer and obviously some who vote for him regardless of those issues. I do not like the extreme statements that “everyone knows” and “everyone agrees”.

I know you are right as to the motives many do not vote for him, but as you point out, most of the arguments focus on what the voters consider his one-dimensional performance. I think they are wrong there too, by the way.

And while I cannot and will not try to demonstrate that his performance before Congress is a key factor, I have often seen it referred to and even adduced as a reason for not supporting his candidacy. In fact one voter clearly said that if McGwire was not going to talk about the past he would not consider his past achievements. That has to be on the short list of most truly idiotic statements.

It is clear that many of the arguments used by voters are essentially emotional ones-he felt like a HOFer (or not), he played the game the right way, he brought credit to the game etc., etc., etc. Their contempt for what they consider his cowardice in the hearings (and what I consider one of the bravest and most honest performances I have ever witnessed) must, in my view, influence their vote whether they admit to it or not.

by bobr on Jan 13, 2009 11:23 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

My objection to that thinking

is that he hit 49 home runs his rookie year when he was thin as a rail. Is it really that outlandish that he would develop a better eye and become more selective at the plate, thus making him a better home run hitter?

Tools Whore

Sign Bonds!

by Tyler on Jan 14, 2009 9:22 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

He could help his cause by coming out and flat out denying past steroid use

or for that fact, admitting past steroid use. The American people are pretty easy forgivers but we don’t like when a person appears to be hiding something. Talk about the past, don’t hide from it.

Regressing to the mean streets of St. Pete

by stpetelawyer on Jan 14, 2009 1:32 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Yes, he could help his cause

but he chooses not to, and I respect him for that. The questions are nonsense, the inferences people would draw from anything he says would simply compound the problem and add new layers of idiotic gossip and the feeding of the hysteria monster would only increase its appetite. Leave it panting for more and stewing in its own stupidity.

by bobr on Jan 14, 2009 1:51 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Plus frankly

McGwire is, and always has been, a very private guy. Even when he broke the home run record, he seemed to be shying away from the spotlight. I suspect it’s more important to him that he be left alone than that he make the hall of fame. It’s not like he needs to make it in so he can live off the notoriety.

Vogt early, Vogt often.

by Brickhaus on Jan 14, 2009 2:48 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Bonds yes

But Sosa? McGwire was clearly several step ahead of Sammy. Sammy is clearly the worest 600 dinger player ever (or even 500+). statistically, I’d put in Rafael Palmeiro before I put in Sosa, and a lot of people don’t consider Raffy a HOFer (statistically!)

Bonds on the other hand, if anyone need a statsical reasoning that he’s the best hitter ever, let alone a hall of fame one, deserve to legally classified as a retard.

for crying out loud, Bonds’ top 5 comp is Willy Mays, Hank Aaron, Babe Ruth, Frank Robinson and Mel Ott, that’s not 1, not 2, but 5 inner circle HOFer and 3 top 10 all time hitters.

by RollingWave on Jan 16, 2009 4:48 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I suspect Sosa will get more support than McGwire

Because the writers view him as a more complete player than McGwire, even if it’s not true. I agree that McGwire was probably the better player, but there are a lot of writers who refuse to look at the numbers at all, and a lot of them who do look at the wrong numbers…

Sosa vs McGwire:

HRs: 609 v 583
Hits: 2408 vs 1626
Doubles: 379 vs 252
RBI: 1667 vs 1481
Runs: 1475 vs 1167
SBs: 234 vs 12
MVPs: 1 vs 0
Consecutive 40 HR seasons: 6 vs 2

Plus to top it off, Sosa played the harder defensive position, plus Sosa will be viewed as a lot more resilient than McGwire.

I think Sosa will get a LOT more support than McGwire. Not enough to get him in the hall, but to the average voter, Sosa probably looks a lot better than McGwire.

Palmeiro would have been a shoo-in without the steroids issue. 3000 hits, 500 home runs. It might have taken him 10 ballots or so to get in, but the 3000 hits would have gotten him in eventually.

Vogt early, Vogt often.

by Brickhaus on Jan 16, 2009 11:14 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Also

This isn’t my favorite method of all, but sometimes it’s a quick and dirty approximation. Look at their respective BBRef pages. Sosa’s top 6 comps are Hall of Famers. For Palmeiro, 9 of 10 comps are hall of famers. For McGwire, it’s just 2. The ability to take a walk has never been rewarded when it comes to Hall voting.

Vogt early, Vogt often.

by Brickhaus on Jan 16, 2009 11:18 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

well yes

I’m not saying that Sammy sucks or anything, and statistically he is obviously a HOFer , albeit a somewhat overrated one. but the fact is that they aren’t really that far apart from each other , Mac had a better peak and Sammy lasted a bit longer. if the defensive thing really matter between a OF and 1B then we’d be voting in Dave Parker a couple of days back instead of Jim Rice.

I’d think that without the Roids issue McGwire / Raffy / Sammy woulda all been in first ballot no question. now? I don’t know what’s going to happen now, but i HIGHLY doubt we’ll never vote in anyone of the roid suspect (I’d wager we probably have roiders in the hall already anyway) if that’s the case. it’s hard to this as a excuse. if your going to vote some in, you need to be fair.

by RollingWave on Jan 17, 2009 4:57 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

That's the thing that kills me.

Cheating is part of baseball’s culture. Anyone who thinks the game will ever truly be clean is naive or simply doesn’t know jack about the history of the sport.

by R.J. Anderson on Jan 18, 2009 11:12 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Last time I checked, Gaylord Perry is in the Hall of Fame

Other than an awesome name, he made a career of “doctoring” the ball. Doctoring the ball is a fancy way of saying “cheating.”

Regressing to the mean streets of St. Pete

by stpetelawyer on Jan 18, 2009 2:18 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Of course, I meant to say

I disagree with the view that voters should not change their minds.

by bobr on Jan 12, 2009 5:06 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Things I don't get

- How Jim Rice can get support but not Dale Murphy
- How Lou Brock can get overwhelming support but not Tim Raines
- How Bruce Sutter can get support but not Lee Smith

10 years from now, Sutter and Rice are going to be looked back on as horrible picks. There are a lot of similar players to those two becoming eligible in the next 5 – 10 years and a lot of them won’t even make it past the first ballot.

Vogt early, Vogt often.

by Brickhaus on Jan 12, 2009 5:55 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Seems like the writers didn't want to let him in easily.

But then realized that they don’t want to get the flack if he never makes it.

Another question: besides the elderly writer who forgot Rickey, who else didn’t make the no-brainer decision?

For those children who claimed they’ve been a fan of their favorite team all their life, or even since they were about four or five years old: bullshit. There’s always that certain event or certain player that draws to the sport and draws you to a team. For me, Nomar Garciaparra was that reason. - Nick Coviello: I Try To See Rocco, But All I Think Is Nomar; 1/9/09

by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jan 12, 2009 8:04 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I thought he justified himself pretty well on Rickey. He was in no matter what might as well use that vote on someone else..

Anyway, as I was lying in the puddle, I think I may have found a way for us to get Bonds and Griffey, and we wouldn't have to give up that much.

~George Costanza~

by Sandy Kazmir on Jan 12, 2009 9:00 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

how the hell isnt bert beleyvn in yet?

i hate these some of these writers, they dont make any sense to me, i think that keith law and some others are about the only ones that i have respect for.

TB Rays in 09!!!

by RaysOfHope on Jan 12, 2009 10:29 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I could go for 10 years of Bartlett 4 MVP

Anyway, as I was lying in the puddle, I think I may have found a way for us to get Bonds and Griffey, and we wouldn't have to give up that much.

~George Costanza~

by Sandy Kazmir on Jan 13, 2009 9:41 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Blylevyn should get in soon

I suspect the focus on Mussina retiring might hurt him though. Similar players, but Mussina has the crazy high winning percentage, while that’s Blylevyn’s weak point.

Vogt early, Vogt often.

by Brickhaus on Jan 13, 2009 10:48 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Its the same reason that Rickey only got 94% of the vote

because these sports writers do whatever they want with no rhyme or reason.

They vote Rice in only because the majority of them agree he deserves it and this was his last year. It makes no sense that they didnt just vote him in before if they agree he deserves it now. Just like it makes no sense for Rickey Henderon to only get 94% of the votes

by Rays4242 on Jan 13, 2009 4:45 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

There are only 7 spots on the ballot

I suspect there were a number of guys who didn’t vote for him because they wanted to use their 7 votes to get maximum effect (at least one has said so much). There were probably also some who didn’t vote for him because they’re old codgers who think nobody should get in unanimously. At least one was someone who turns in a completely blank ballot each year, and has said he’ll continue to do so until he can figure out how to treat people who played in the steroids era.

Vogt early, Vogt often.

by Brickhaus on Jan 13, 2009 8:46 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I am no longer impressed with the HOF, like I was when I was a kid.

When you actually see what is involved in inducting a player you realize how ridiculous the whole thing is. If that many voters won’t vote for Rickey Henderson then the whole system should be scrapped. That’s my belief and, having seriously reviewed the process over the last few says, I’m sticking to it.

Regressing to the mean streets of St. Pete

by stpetelawyer on Jan 13, 2009 9:22 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

THIS!

TB Rays in 09!!!

by RaysOfHope on Jan 13, 2009 9:52 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Rickey was a great player...

Jim Rice was an above-average player. But, yet they go to the same place? Almost doesn’t seem fair. Rice play 15 years, doesn’t have 3000 hits, 500 homeruns, one MVP, and appeared in 8 all-star games. Rickey hold the record for steals, has 3,000 hits and played the game for 25 years.

Someone tell me again why Roger Maris never made it to the hall of fame?

In the name of Shinji Mori, we shall win!

by thebaddancingraysfan on Jan 13, 2009 10:54 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Roger killed a hooker

The press never forgave him.

Anyway, as I was lying in the puddle, I think I may have found a way for us to get Bonds and Griffey, and we wouldn't have to give up that much.

~George Costanza~

by Sandy Kazmir on Jan 14, 2009 10:27 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Very short career

And only two good seasons, plus lots of injury problems. Juan Gonzalez is someone else with a similar career path, only the case for Gonzalez is much stronger than for Maris as he had better performance overall outside his two monster years and had 1500 more at-bats.

Vogt early, Vogt often.

by Brickhaus on Jan 14, 2009 11:27 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Rickey belongs in the Hall of Fame with Lou Gehrig, Willie Mays, Ty Cobb and Sandy Koufax

Rice belongs in the Hall of “very good” with Tony Perez, Gary Carter and Ferguson Jenkins

Apparently, we need two Halls…

Regressing to the mean streets of St. Pete

by stpetelawyer on Jan 14, 2009 1:28 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Gary Carter has a pretty darn legitimate argument for being in the Hall of Fame

One of the top 5 hitting catchers in history
Solid defensive catcher, acknowledged as one of the best of his era
11 All-Star appearances, Five Silver Sluggers, Three Gold Gloves, 2 MVP shares in his career

He never had a monster season, but he was very good for a very long time. He’s not an inner-circle guy, but he’s not a joke either, and he’s probably right around average for a hall of famer.

Vogt early, Vogt often.

by Brickhaus on Jan 14, 2009 2:51 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Rickey would like to introduce Rickey to talk about Rickey because Rickey was the one and only Rickey

to ever play the game like Rickey. Now I introduce to you Rickey…. “Hello All this is Rickey speaking to introduce Rickey the Greatest of All Time” .

Top Josh Paul Pornos- Big Navi Stroking, 2pitchers1cup, BJ to the Balls, Riggans Your Thingans

by SRQman on Jan 13, 2009 11:02 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Watching Rickey on the MLBTV "Hot Stove" show has been awesome!

The story about how he took his first million dollar check and put it on his wall in a frame about killed me. The club called him and was like, “Eh, are you going to cash that thing?” Rickey liked the way it looked on Rickey’s wall…

Regressing to the mean streets of St. Pete

by stpetelawyer on Jan 14, 2009 1:29 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

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