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An Interview With Rob Neyer

Today we're bringing you the first of three interviews we're going to have over the next week or so.  We were lucky enough to get Rob Neyer of ESPN.com to answer a few questions about the Rays and baseball in general.   Most of you are familiar with his work, and if not you certainly should be.  He pens a blog for ESPN.com and he's written four books, including his latest "Rob Neyer's Big Book of Baseball Legends: The Truth, the Lies and Everything else."  It's only $6.40 and I hear makes a great Valentine's Day present for that special someone.  Enjoy.

 

Star-divide

1. It's become the trendy thing among some members of the media to try and predict who the "next Rays" will be. Do you agree that the 2008 Rays were a unique once in a decade type story, and that while teams may follow their business model nobody will surprise the mainstream audience like the Rays did?

"Next Rays" is a handy shorthand for writers and radio hosts, but the odds are incredibly high against any team this year doing what the Rays did last year. I don't mean going from last place to first place. That can happen, especially these days when most divisions have only four or five teams. What made the Rays special was their history; their long run of failure and the hopelessness that had so long been attached to them (and that's without even mentioning their status as a recent expansion club). I think the comparable franchises today are Baltimore, Kansas City, Washington, and Pittsburgh. And because none of those franchises have anything like the smarts of the Rays, I can't see any of them contending for a playoff spot this year.

2. Do you think the Rays approach of 'defense first' is the new "Moneyball" way of thinking?

I don't believe the Rays' approach is "defense first," necessarily. I believe it's "value first," which really is the point of "Moneyball" (I mean, aside from throwing chairs and stuff).

3. As the baseball world becomes more sabermetric friendly do you think TV and other traditional sources of media will be forced to become smarter about statistics?

Sure, but that's been going on for at least 20 years. It's a slow process, and will continue to be slow. What's most striking these days is that some of the younger play-by-play guys -- Jon Sciambi and Len Kasper come to mind -- actually grew up reading Bill James and others, and occasionally a bit of that does seep into the broadcasts. But there's only so much air time between calling the action on the field. They do what they can.

4. On that same note, writers like yourself, the Keith Laws, Tom Tangos and Dave Camerons of the world have influenced a great many young writers. As the older sabermetrically opposed writers fade away do you think we'll see a mini revolution in the way baseball is covered in the mainstream? Or are we resigned to a few more decades of batting average, RBI and pitcher win/loss arguments?

Well, again, it's already happening. But there won't be any identifiable revolution, a date at which we can later look back and say, "That's when everything changed." And really, how fast it happens will depend not on the mainstream writers, but on the readers who ultimately define what "mainstream" means.

5. You've stated many times recently that the Yankees are the clear team to beat, and they may very well be. In your opinion what is it going to take for the Rays to overcome them, and the Red Sox for that matter, and win another division title?

Honestly? It'll take some luck. Not a great deal of luck, though. Right now I figure the Yankees for 98 wins, the Rays for 90, and the Red Sox somewhere in between. The tough thing for the Rays is that they do need a little help. If events follow their (apparently) natural course, the Rays will finish third. I just hope the fans show up for the show, regardless of the standings.

6. In the Fielding Bible Awards voting, you had Dioner Navarro 9th. Can you explain how you construct your ballot, as well as how you do it for catchers specifically?

I wish I could. Maybe if you'd caught me the next day, but that was three or four months ago ... Seriously, I don't use a rigid system while filling out my ballot, and of course it's even tougher with catchers than everyone else (except pitchers, who are basically impossible). But with catchers, I do look at stolen-base data, along with passed balls and wild pitches. But why Navarro ninth and Pudge Rodriguez eighth? I might have been able to tell you, when I did it.

7. You've mentioned having some questions about the FanGraphs positional adjustments before, have you finally resolved those? And what do you think of the Win Values metric?

Those guys are really smart, and I've yet to see anyone challenge their methods with any sort of insight. I do think we've not yet completely come to grips with the implications of the positional adjustments.

8. Have you ever been approached about doing consultant work for an organization?

Never. But of course tomorrow's a new day.

9. The Royals, for the most part, are a mess. Acquisitions like Jose Guillen, Kyle Farnsworth, Mike Jacobs and Willie Bloomquist are head scratchers. However, they recently made the smart decision to resign Zack Greinke to a fairly team friendly contract. If the team falls out of contention early and Grienke puts up good numbers, wouldn't they be better served trading Greinke and adding more pieces?

They're certainly not going to trade him with three-plus years remaining on his new contract. Should they? I'm not sure if any team's got enough prospects to trade for that many innings of Zack Greinke. For the Royals, the nice thing is that even if they wait until 2011 to deal him, if he's still pitching well his contract will still be tradeable. Of course a lot can happen between now and then.

10. With all of the metrics that seem to be giving us a better picture of a ballplayer and their worth, do you worry (like I believe some of your colleagues in the BBWAA) that they cloud the baseball picture for fans/writers? Does the old "Can't see the forest through the trees" adage come into play?

Oh, I don't know. I'm sure that writers 30 years ago were railing against the idea of on-base percentage for that exact reason. I don't think we'll ever have too much information. It's our job as writers to know which information is worthwhile, and the fans -- especially today -- can decide for themselves how deep they want to drill.

11. There seems to be an inordinate amount of bright analytical writers associated, however loosely, with the Royals and Mariners. Why do you think that is? Location may play a factor with the Mariners, but what about the Royals?

I can only speak for myself (I mean, assuming that you consider me bright and analytical). And it's no coincidence. I owe my career to Bill James, and if I hadn't lived near the Royals -- just like Bill -- he would not have hired me.

12. Realistically, in your opinion how long is the Rays' championship window open?

It's too early to put any sort of limit on the Rays. Will it be tougher for them, finishing too high in the standings to draft guys like David Price and Evan Longoria? Sure. But I think they'll be good for at least the next three or four years, and beyond that is just too far too see.

13. If you weren't writing about baseball what would you be doing with your life?

Traveling the highways and byways of America, wondering what's around the next bend.

14. What players have been your favorites to watch over the last 20 years? And currently?

I tend to particularly enjoy the outliers: short players, fat players, old players, knuckleballers, etc. For a while I was sort of obsessed with pitchers, when I was working on a book about them. Really, though, they're all my favorites. For a long time I've had a great appreciation for the skills necessary to play baseball at the highest level (and that appreciation has only grown over the last couple of years as I've tried to play baseball at its lowest level).

15. Who wins a World Series first, Billy Beane or Andrew Friedman?

Friedman, if only because Beane is likely to find a bigger and greener pasture at some point in the next few years.

16. As you probably know by now, this is a blog. With the recent additions of yourself and Keith Law to the BBWAA do you feel that progress is being made in recognizing other outlets of media besides newspapers. Do you think that blogs, the good ones, are going to be taken more seriously and see as credible in the mainstream media at any point in the near future?

As surely as the sun coming up tomorrow.

---

We'd like to thank Rob for taking time out of his busy schedule and responding to our questions. You can read his daily thoughts on his ESPN blog, and peruse (and purchase!) his books here.

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"If events follow their (apparently) natural course, the Rays will finish third. I just hope the fans show up for the show, regardless of the standings."

I would hope so. 90 wins is competitive into September; if the Rays don’t near their attendance record of the inaugural season, I’d be astonished.

by kericr on Jan 29, 2009 10:27 AM EST reply actions  

Thoughts on question #3

I liken the current expansion in statistics to the dot com boom. Newer oriented statistics have been out there for a while, but they were kind of boutique, and frankly, they weren’t nearly as accurate as they could have been. Some of the frontrunners were guys like Bill James, who really has no math background and would just mix and match to find a basic formula that seemed to work most of the time. With the explosion of blogs, it’s given a voice to a lot more people with good math minds to baseball statistics. The problem is that each voice has developed its own formula and its own system. It seems like someone is coming out with a new and improved stat every couple months or so these days.

I suspect that not long from now, you’ll start to see certain new statistics falling out of favor and others becoming more commonly used. Once the community has settled on a few good new statistics to use that are easily explained, you’ll start to see them used more in the mainstream media. Sort of like people who shopped online during the dot com explosion. Once 4/5th of the online stores went out of business and the various online retail industries consolidated, it was no longer as daunting of a task to shop online, and online shopping has increased exponentially.

Vogt early, Vogt often.

by Brickhaus on Jan 29, 2009 11:12 AM EST reply actions  

Great interview, BTW

I really love it how some of the ESPN guys will let go a bit more with their personal thoughts when they’re not talking on ESPN. Neyer, Law and Olney all seem to be good with this. Olney actually annoyed the heck out of me when he first started there, but he’s grown on me quite a bit.

Vogt early, Vogt often.

by Brickhaus on Jan 29, 2009 11:20 AM EST reply actions  

Friedman, if only because Beane is likely to find a bigger and greener pasture at some point in the next few years.

Do you think this is implying that he’s being looked at as the next commissioner of MLB? I’m trying to think what exactly a bigger, greener pasture would be…

Vogt early, Vogt often.

by Brickhaus on Jan 29, 2009 11:24 AM EST reply actions  

Probably confined to sports though

While sports teams might hire someone as a GM because he was a good manager in the business sector, I doubt there are many (any?) companys willing to take a big enough risk to hire a baseball GM as an upper-level manager just because they did a good job at managing people and finding inefficiencies in the baseball arena.

Vogt early, Vogt often.

by Brickhaus on Jan 29, 2009 11:36 AM EST up reply actions  

For a "smart man" he sure can't see that the Yankees are overrated.

Well, it’ll be fun watching the pundits try to downplay the Rays. So I suppose that people like Rob will assume the Rays will be the new Blue Jays, third Place in the East year after year.

In the name of Shinji Mori, we shall win!

by thebaddancingraysfan on Jan 29, 2009 11:57 AM EST reply actions  

I don't think so.

Adding Tex, CC, and AJ will not cure all aliments. Remember CC got hit around when facing strong clubs in the AL and got hit around when facing the Cubs. The outfield of the Yankees will not have the pop, their catcher has a question mark connected with him, and they are hoping that Cano had an “off year.”

In the name of Shinji Mori, we shall win!

by thebaddancingraysfan on Jan 29, 2009 12:10 PM EST up reply actions  

The Yankees had 89 wins last year

That was with Cano having a horrible offensive year and half their rotation having major injury problems. They’ve upgraded Hughes/Ponson to Sabathia, plus Rasner to Chamberlain for at least a good chunk of the season, and even an injured Burnett isn’t much of a downgrade from Mussina. They’ve also upgraded Abreu to Swisher and Giambi to Teixiera, and presuming that Matsui doesn’t get hurt again, you can bet they won’t have 600 ABs of 75 OPS+ hitting out of the CF position again. Plus, it took a half a season for them to settle on a decent bullpen. Even accounting for old players fading, to think they haven’t improved by at least 5 or so wins seems kind of silly.

Vogt early, Vogt often.

by Brickhaus on Jan 29, 2009 12:21 PM EST up reply actions  

Assuming last year was an outlier

They’re not too far apart.

Vogt early, Vogt often.

by Brickhaus on Jan 29, 2009 12:24 PM EST up reply actions  

In terms of wins the last three years:

Swisher 7.6
Abreu 7.5.

Defense and offense matter equally.

by R.J. Anderson on Jan 29, 2009 12:25 PM EST up reply actions  

No, offense matters more than defense

But defense does matter, and if your defense sucks that bad, it can counteract the offense.

Vogt early, Vogt often.

by Brickhaus on Jan 29, 2009 12:25 PM EST up reply actions  

Um?

10 runs offensively + 0 runs defensively = 10 runs.
0 runs offensively + 10 runs defensively = 10 runs.

by R.J. Anderson on Jan 29, 2009 12:26 PM EST up reply actions  

I'd rather use pretzels as the measure.

How many pretzels do you think Swisher’s defense is worth? 4?

by R.J. Anderson on Jan 29, 2009 12:28 PM EST up reply actions  

:-P

Vogt early, Vogt often.

by Brickhaus on Jan 29, 2009 12:28 PM EST up reply actions  

I think we need to look into the pretzel-to-wins ratio a bit more

also, what are the positional adjustments? is it like 30 bags of pretzels for catching?

---
Juuuust a bit outside!!
http://www.rightfieldbleachers.com

by Jack Moore on Jan 29, 2009 9:30 PM EST up reply actions  

Ugh

To be worth -10 runs defensively, you need to be proportionally worse at defense than good at offense. Hitting is 50% of the game. Pitching + fielding are 50% of the game.

Semantics.

Vogt early, Vogt often.

by Brickhaus on Jan 29, 2009 12:27 PM EST up reply actions  

For an individual player?

50% of their game is hitting, the other 50% is defense.

How does pitching work into Nick Swisher’s game?

by R.J. Anderson on Jan 29, 2009 12:30 PM EST up reply actions  

Swisher needs to work on his curve.

Top Josh Paul Pornos- Big Navi Stroking, 2pitchers1cup, BJ to the Balls, Riggans Your Thingans

by SRQman on Jan 29, 2009 12:32 PM EST up reply actions  

It doesn't

That’s the point though.

In the overall game, Hitting (X) is 50% of a pitcher’s game. Pitching (Y) and Fielding (Z) are the other 50%. Thus X = Y + Z.

X is comprised of the individual hitting (x) of 9 players. Thus X = x1 + x2 + x3…..

Pitching is comprised of just the pitching for that game. No need to break it down further for these purposes.

Fielding is comprised of the individual fielding (z) of 9 players. Thus, Z = z1 + z2 + z3…..

For the pitching to be worth anything, x1 + x2 + x3… must be greater than z1 + z2 + z3….

Thus, on average, hitting is a bigger part of a position player’s value than fielding. That might not hold true for any individual player, but on average, hitting is more important.

Vogt early, Vogt often.

by Brickhaus on Jan 29, 2009 12:40 PM EST up reply actions  

I can't give an exact number

But I’m sure it would be easy enough for someone like you who has access to the numbers to run it. Just take the total runs on the hitting side and compare it to the total runs on the fielding side. I’d guess that it works out to something like 65/35, which is about what the ratio would be if pitching is 30% of the total value in the game.

Vogt early, Vogt often.

by Brickhaus on Jan 29, 2009 12:42 PM EST up reply actions  

"That might not hold true for any individual player, but on average, hitting is more important"

Okay, so what you’re saying is:

On a team wide basis:
Run creation is equal to run prevention (P+D)

On an individual basis:
Run creation is equal to run prevention.

by R.J. Anderson on Jan 29, 2009 12:42 PM EST up reply actions  

But relative to winning

The value of a player’s run creation is worth more than the value of a player’s run prevention

Vogt early, Vogt often.

by Brickhaus on Jan 29, 2009 12:48 PM EST up reply actions  

A player needs to do more

to be worth a fielding run than to be worth a hitting run.

Vogt early, Vogt often.

by Brickhaus on Jan 29, 2009 12:54 PM EST up reply actions  

Or taking a different tack

What you said that I originally controverted could be translated to pitching. It would be like hitting and pitching for a pitcher matter equally. Yes, a run created pitching is worth the same as a run created hitting, but it should be blatant that in the context of an individual pitcher, their pitching performance will have a much greater effect than their fielding performance. It’s not as stark of a difference for hitters, but it’s the same idea.

Vogt early, Vogt often.

by Brickhaus on Jan 29, 2009 12:57 PM EST up reply actions  

But it doesn't matter once you've measured performance in runs.

I don’t disagree. But the point is that Swisher’s so much better at defense than Abreu that he negates any offensive advantage.

Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.

by Sky Kalkman on Jan 29, 2009 5:28 PM EST up reply actions  

Or another way of putting it

On average, a player’s offensive contribution is going to be greater than a player’s defensive contribution. That’s why a completely sucky defender who’s a good but not great hitter (like Abreu) can still have a positive value, and a great defender who’s a black hole offensively can have little to no value.

Vogt early, Vogt often.

by Brickhaus on Jan 29, 2009 12:53 PM EST up reply actions  

Not a valid comparison

Look at them at the same position. Of course a good defensive CF will have more value. And it still also proves my point. Would anyone dispute that there’s a much bigger gap between Ibanez and Gathright’s defensive abilities as opposed to their offensive abilities?

Vogt early, Vogt often.

by Brickhaus on Jan 29, 2009 12:59 PM EST up reply actions  

Okay, look at them at the same position.

Franklin Gutierrez has been equal to Raul Ibanez over the last two years.

by R.J. Anderson on Jan 29, 2009 1:01 PM EST up reply actions  

Once again

And would anyone dispute that there’s a bigger gap between their respective defensive abilities than their respective offensive abilities? Outside of John Kruk types?

Vogt early, Vogt often.

by Brickhaus on Jan 29, 2009 1:09 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't understand what you mean by gap...

My preferred scale for talent/value is runs. So the gaps are the same.

If your point is that the spread in offensive abilities is a bit wider than the spread in defensive abilities, at the MLB level, so that a 30 run gap on defensive is wider relative to the potential gap than a 30 run gap on offense, then ok, sure.

But that’s no the de facto way people look at it.

Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.

by Sky Kalkman on Jan 29, 2009 5:31 PM EST up reply actions  

What I'm saying

Is that a greater proportion of a hitter’s value is derived from hitting than from fielding. That may not be true on a case by case basis, but it mathematically has to be true on average. In the abstract, to say “hitting and fielding matter equally” is empirically false.

Vogt early, Vogt often.

by Brickhaus on Jan 29, 2009 5:46 PM EST up reply actions  

it is a three prong system

pitching helps defense, defense helps pitching, and so forth and so on. It makes sense.

by raysfaninminnesota on Jan 29, 2009 5:48 PM EST up reply actions  

How many players derive as much of their value from defense as offense?

The range for batting runs was -31 to 71. The range of defensive runs was -37 to 21. The standard deviations were ~14 for offense and ~7 for defense, with an average of ~2 and 0 respectively. So, it seems the defensive value derived is not as a great of a percentage of total value. Yes, a player worth 10 offensive and 0 defensive runs is as valuable as the opposite, but more players are worth 10 offensive runs because it is a greater proportion of their value (the measure of their effect on the game).

by rglass44 on Jan 29, 2009 12:43 PM EST up reply actions  

Thank you

It’s nice to see I’m not actually speaking Chinese

Vogt early, Vogt often.

by Brickhaus on Jan 29, 2009 12:49 PM EST up reply actions  

It's closer than you think, if you use average as the baseline.

More players are below-average hitters than above-average hitters, because the awesome hitters skew things to the high end. Most of those average to below-average hitters are average to above-average fielders.

Again, this is a valid view (hitting/fielding talent relative to the full range of talents). But it’s not the de facto view. And it’s better to just look at things in terms of runs. “So-and-so’s defensive abilities make up for his offensive deficiences” should imply a runs to runs comparison.

Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.

by Sky Kalkman on Jan 29, 2009 5:35 PM EST up reply actions  

Maybe it's not your de facto view

But in a team sport, I think the better way of looking at it, when possible, is to take the macro view, then break that down individually, when at all possible.

Vogt early, Vogt often.

by Brickhaus on Jan 29, 2009 5:48 PM EST up reply actions  

Look at it this way.

The upward-bound on defense is nowhere near the upward bound on offense. Wouldn’t this then imply that the range in offensive values is due to the fact that a player’s worth is not exactly a 50-50 split among what they offer on offense and defense. Granted it is an exact split of their offensive/defensive values, but that doesn’t mean that their value is a complete 50-50 split. Since 2002, the highest defensive value was 31 runs (Adam Everett last year). In the meantime, there have been countless offensive years with that value. To me, this means that a player has more value when at the plate then at the field.

by rglass44 on Jan 29, 2009 5:51 PM EST up reply actions  

think of it this way then

Giambi —> Swisher
Abreu —> Teixeira

Those are more similar hitters that way, and it’s pretty clear they took a pretty big step up in both defense and power.

Vogt early, Vogt often.

by Brickhaus on Jan 29, 2009 12:26 PM EST up reply actions  

You do remember CC's 2007 season, right?

The Yankees might not be better than the Red Sox and not that much better than the Rays, but they are surely one of the best teams in the league. They have a stud rotation, with depth. They have a great lineup and an improved defense. They have Mariano Rivera. Of course things can go wrong and they’ll probably suffer some big injuries. Enough of those and they’re an 87-win team. But things can also go very right. Enough right, and they’re a 107+ win team.

Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.

by Sky Kalkman on Jan 29, 2009 5:26 PM EST up reply actions  

BTW

Some of the smart folks at BBTF Agree with you…

I’ve been thinking about this, and though I haven’t run any numbers yet (well, haven’t run other peoples’ numbers, that is), I don’t think I can agree. I think that the Rays have the best chance of the three to make the playoffs. Because of their youth, they’re unlikely to see key players significantly decline, and aren’t as likely as Boston or New York to see key players get injured for long periods. Since injuries and unexpected declines are the most obvious means of separation among evenly matched teams, it seems to me that, regardless of how the teams look on paper in relation to each other, the order of likelihood of making the playoffs is Tampa, Boston, New York.
I’m just glad I lived to see the day when someone makes an argument for this, and I don’t automatically assume they’re joking or a moron.

http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/newsstand/discussion/draysbay_an_interview_with_rob_neyer/

Vogt early, Vogt often.

by Brickhaus on Jan 29, 2009 5:57 PM EST up reply actions  

Second that

Everyone talks about how ‘lucky’ the Rays were in regards to health last year. What would be more accurate is they are entering their athletic prime. The only way the Rays suffer a set back is if their bullpen implodes. Here’s hoping having a Bradford and Nelson for a full season helps the Rays maintain a solid bullpen.

by raysfaninminnesota on Jan 29, 2009 6:02 PM EST up reply actions  

Pretty reasonable.

But the media is running around acting like they are going to win more like 195 games.

Basically it boils down to, are they better? Yes. But you have to consider they are losing Mussina, Abreu, Giambi, etc. all were contributors in 08’.

by twenty5psi on Jan 29, 2009 2:44 PM EST up reply actions  

Then defend why the Yankees will win the East?

Sincerely, I have never met this man, so I will say he is intelligent. But, I don’t see how the Yankees are going to win. Good luck with that one.

In the name of Shinji Mori, we shall win!

by thebaddancingraysfan on Jan 29, 2009 12:07 PM EST up reply actions  

You can't see how the Yankees might win the ALE?

Even with Teixeira, Sabathia, and Burnett?

Come on, the talent clump between the top 3 ALE teams is incredibly close. I’m just as likely to buy the Yankees winning it as finishing third. Same with the Sox and Rays.

by R.J. Anderson on Jan 29, 2009 12:11 PM EST up reply actions  

With this answer, I would buy.

I don’t think it’s as clean cut as Mr. Neyer says it is.

In the name of Shinji Mori, we shall win!

by thebaddancingraysfan on Jan 29, 2009 12:12 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, with out a pitch thrown, the defending AL East champs have been regulated to third place.
Honestly? It’ll take some luck. Not a great deal of luck, though. Right now I figure the Yankees for 98 wins, the Rays for 90, and the Red Sox somewhere in between. The tough thing for the Rays is that they do need a little help. If events follow their (apparently) natural course, the Rays will finish third. I just hope the fans show up for the show, regardless of the standings.

In the name of Shinji Mori, we shall win!

by thebaddancingraysfan on Jan 29, 2009 12:19 PM EST up reply actions  

98-90 = 8/2 = 4

98, 94, 90.

That’s not outlandish.

by R.J. Anderson on Jan 29, 2009 12:22 PM EST up reply actions  

It's his opinion.

Their biggest weakness last season were their starters and their defense. They’ve upgraded both.

by Erik Hahmann on Jan 29, 2009 12:14 PM EST up reply actions  

They added first base.

They didn’t’ upgrade Shortstop. Their outfield is a shadow what it once was.

In the name of Shinji Mori, we shall win!

by thebaddancingraysfan on Jan 29, 2009 12:17 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't think they've upgraded defense much

Swisher is better than Abreu and Teixiera is better than Giambi, but Damon is a big downgrade from Melky/Gardner (but a bigger offensive upgrade I think) and players are getting older. I do think they’ve improved their offense and pitching though, and they probably won’t have as many injury problems this year.

Vogt early, Vogt often.

by Brickhaus on Jan 29, 2009 12:23 PM EST up reply actions  

for what it's worth

The Brickhaus/Anderson debate has been enjoyable to read. Always enjoy a good debate!

by raysfaninminnesota on Jan 29, 2009 4:51 PM EST up reply actions  

Second that.

In the name of Shinji Mori, we shall win!

by thebaddancingraysfan on Jan 29, 2009 5:33 PM EST up reply actions  

"I don't see how the Yankees are going to win."

I agree that I will not pick them to with the AL East but to say you can’t see why someone would is a reach, IMO.

Rays 2009 Slogan: "Come back with your shield or on it"

by PriceMultiCyYoungs on Jan 29, 2009 12:09 PM EST reply actions  

Reply fail

Rays 2009 Slogan: "Come back with your shield or on it"

by PriceMultiCyYoungs on Jan 29, 2009 12:09 PM EST up reply actions  

I think the Yankees have improved

and will certainly contend. I think the Rays have improved also, but I do not expect that means they will win more than 97 games, or for that matter more than their 2008 pythagorean or third order record.

As I recall, the Yankees biggest problem last year was a somewhat disappointing offense, not the pitching. Adding Teixeira improves that, and Swisher may also, although that is less certain. But the offensive improvement of Teixeira over Giambi and Swisher over Abreu is not dramatic. So much depends on what Posada and Matsui bring to the table as well as whether Cano and Jeter rebound significantly. Other than those players, I do not think we can expect much improvement from A-Rod, Damon, Nady, Melky or Gardner. And I am also not sure there is much depth to cover should there be slumps or injuries, although if Nady is the 4th outfielder, that is pretty good.

As for defense, no question that both Teixeira and Swisher are huge upgrades, but at positions lower on the defensive spectrum. Their up the middle defense remains suspect, especially if Damon is in CF. Other than Teixeira, nobody is especially outstanding on defense, and some are very suspect.

In pitching, again the upgrade from Mussina of 2008 to Sabathia is real but not huge. I do think that it is, however, a potentially great rotation, especially if Chamberlain and Pettitte are #4 & 5. And with Hughes available, it also has some insurance against injury. Plus we do have to remember that the Yankees are more capable than most of filling holes in-season via trades for expensive players.

I do not go along with Neyer’s view that the Yankees are clear favorites, but I can appreciate that analysis. In my view, all 3 teams are close enough that any one (or 2) of the three has about the same chance to get to the post season.

by bobr on Jan 29, 2009 12:56 PM EST reply actions  

The offense was dissappointing

But it’s hard for me to imagine that the additions of CC, Burnett, a presumably healthy Wang (it wasn’t an arm injury, and Bruney rebounded fine from the same injury after the required heal time), and more IP from Joba, plus possible improvement from Pettitte, who was also hurting late but “toughed it out” until NY was virtually eliminated , should represent a large improvement. Sad to see Moose go – his positive contribution will be missed. But not having to rely on significant IP from Ponson, Rasner, or Pavano, and allowing Hughes, Aceves, and Kennedy to develop in AAA and contribute when ready and healthy seems like a big gain.

I understand that there is the looming concern with injury, but that is a 2 edged sword – it can strike TB or Boston as well. NY’s rotation is not so old any longer, and their significnat injury losses last year were by the younger pitchers – Wang, Joba, Hughes, Kennedy. Pitching injury is a more equal opportunity employer – not so age discriminatory.

D is an issue, but Nady / Swisher is a RF upgrade (one may be traded), Damon is expected in LF, where his arm is less a liability and he’s pretty good – no more gimpy Matsui, who’ll DH, and the 2 kids are slugging it out for CF – both are solid on D – their O needs to pick up. If no trade occurs of course, there will likely be some blending of spots. In the IF, well, it is what it is. But Cano could improve if his focus improves – hitting better a than .150 in April could go a long way.

And the offense from your analysis potentially has more upside than down. Plus I’d say Melky and Gardner have as much chance to rebound or improve than not. Nady might have upside – he OPS’d at .794 in NY, .938 in Pitt. Both are tougher power parks on righties, and it was his 1st go in the AL, he dropped off in Pitt in ‘06 when traded there midseason too. But I think he’s about what we got. And while NY may be more susceptible to injury, again, that is a fickle mistress. Injury took a far greater toll on NY’s key position players than Tampa’s or Boston’s, particularly in terms of games missed. A shift in luck could also change that. And better hitting with RISP, something that tends to vary, could make a difference too, though the Rays struggled there as well. Boston didn’t.

So may we’re both in, they’re out. Really it could go any way.

by nyyfaninlaaland on Jan 29, 2009 6:12 PM EST up reply actions  

I read somewhere that the plan was to put Damon back in center

And to quote John Sickels, “Melky sucks”

Vogt early, Vogt often.

by Brickhaus on Jan 29, 2009 6:31 PM EST up reply actions  

If that is the case...

Have Carl score from second on a flyball to center!

In the name of Shinji Mori, we shall win!

by thebaddancingraysfan on Jan 29, 2009 6:38 PM EST up reply actions  

It is THAT bad.

I saw it with my own eyes. Rays vs. BoSox at the Trop. Carl is on 2nd, Huff drives one to deep center, touching the warning track. Crawford goes and turns on the jets after he hits third. Boston ended up blowing the D-Rays out that game, but it was beautiful see. I am trying to remember what specific game, but I can’t.

In the name of Shinji Mori, we shall win!

by thebaddancingraysfan on Jan 29, 2009 7:30 PM EST up reply actions  

I found the game!
September 20, 2005 – BOS @ TBD (box/PBP) – Trailing 7-1 in the bottom of the third, Jorge Cantu hits a fly ball to center field, scoring Carl Crawford from second.

In the name of Shinji Mori, we shall win!

by thebaddancingraysfan on Jan 29, 2009 7:48 PM EST up reply actions  

Just for my own info

Did any of you suggest that the Rays would win 97 games in 2008 when you were having similar discussions last year?

by plasticman on Jan 29, 2009 1:47 PM EST reply actions  

I projected 75-77 wins

with a pretty good chance to get to .500. Many projection systems had them in the high 80s or even low 90s, so while they were still low, it is interesting how much closer they were than traditional prognosticators.

by bobr on Jan 29, 2009 2:48 PM EST up reply actions  

I was with Bob - and Vegas

I know some folks here at the time made some cash on that!

by nyyfaninlaaland on Jan 29, 2009 7:37 PM EST up reply actions  

I thought for sure they would win 85-90 after spring training.

And would be in the hunt for the Wild Card throughout the season. Did I think they would win East, no. I thought Boston would win. I did think that the Yankees would be in a decline. I honestly thought the Yankees would end up in 4th.

Why? Becuse they looked 180 degrees better from what I have seen over the years. Most people thought I was crazy.

In the name of Shinji Mori, we shall win!

by thebaddancingraysfan on Jan 29, 2009 4:50 PM EST up reply actions  

I think you must have been letting your Yanks feelings

get the better of you. But you weren’t alone in that thought, and they weren’t that far out of 4th.

But they also had the best record of any non-playoff team (with the Mets), and 7th best in baseball. The AL East, except poor Baltimore and their incredible pitching problems, was something else.

by nyyfaninlaaland on Jan 29, 2009 7:41 PM EST up reply actions  

No,

I live in Tampa, so I see a lot of the Yankees. Just taking a look at the Yankees and looking at the other teams, I saw a degression from what they Yankees were in previous years. It’s the honest truth. I am the type of person, if someone better I will be honest and say that someone is better. But, if they are not, I will not cave to public oppinion. Trust me, I wasn’t well liked in my bar when told people what I thought of the Yankees. I didn’t do too well, in tips, when I spoke my mind.

In the name of Shinji Mori, we shall win!

by thebaddancingraysfan on Jan 29, 2009 9:48 PM EST up reply actions  

Another consideration

TB’s pythagorean projection was 93 wins in 2008; NY’s was 87. We recognize that NY has improved. But what about the Rays?

Where can we expect a decline on offense? From Navarro perhaps. For the rest, isn’t it reasonable to expect improvement from Crawford, Upton and from Burrell over Floyd, and perhaps even from Longoria? And is there any reason to think that anyone else will not at least stay steady? Maybe Zobrist was not for real, I suppose. But the addition of Kapler should offset that.

Where can we expect a decline in defense? I don’t see it. On the contrary, another year’s experience for Upton & for Iwamura at 2B should improve the defense up the middle. And isn’t Kapler a better outfielder than Hinske? Is there more reason to think that Navarro will continue to improve his defense or that he will decline? Might Bartlett get better if he stays healthy, and Crawford be more important if he is healthy? I do not see a bad defensive player anywhere, or one whom we should expect to decline.

What about the pitching? Which is most likely, that Kazmir, Shields, Garza &/or Sonnantine will decline, improve or remain steady? And it seems to me reasonable that Jackson’s replacement will be at least as good, probably better.

The one area that could show regression is the bullpen as I am doubtful that Howell and Balfour will repeat, although they have a decent chance to remain valuable. It is very possible that Wheeler could hurt the Rays as well. But there has been an effort to bolster that staff as well, and there are some options that provide promise that the bullpen will remain a strength.

So when we credit the Yankees with upgrading and likely improving on their record, why are we not doing the same for the Rays, starting at an established higher level and similarly improving? Perhaps not as much, or as dramatically, but then they did not have to do as much. Is it that we are factoring a lot more good luck or intangibles into the Rays 97 actual wins or 93 win pythagorean record and a lot more bad luck or intangibles into the Yankees 89 actual wins or 87 win pythagorean record?

by bobr on Jan 29, 2009 3:55 PM EST reply actions  

solid analysis

Everyone picks the Yanks because it is easy. It is easy to see the big names and assume they will do great in NY. It’s easy to say they’ve improved in a few different categories. And while it is also true, what is not true is that the other two major contenders in the division didn’t improve just as much. The Yankees addressed major holes, but they still are aging. Injuries will be a problem with them, especially nagging injuries. They do not have the depth to overcome that, as evidenced by last year’s issues to Posada and Wang among others.

Sabathia has a good shot to duplicate Mussina’s numbers from last season. To guarantee or expect more is living on the edge. Sabathia stuggled tremendously in the first 5 weeks of the season last year—minor struggle compared to how dominant he was later and how he righted the ship while he was still with the Indians—but if he struggles out of the gate with NY, there is much more pressure on him now than was with Cleveland. Let’s see how he handles adversity in NY and faces less pitchers who bat, and we’ll see. He will be very good, but so was Mussina last year.

What the Yanks do have going for them is A-Rod and Texiera, two of the best hitters in the game. Just ask the Red Sox what having Ramirez and Papi did for them. The offense will again be a strength for this team, and probably as dangerous of a middle of the order as it has been in a while.

While it’s easy to pick the Yankees, it apparantly is also easier to imagine the Rays dropping off according to many experts. The same experts who repeatedly didn’t give the Rays a chance last year, only calling it a nice story, but expecting the Red Sox to win the division…or at least to beat the Rays in the ALCS…right.

The Rays have improved themselves in every major area. They have depth nearly everywhere. They are built to sustain a 162 game season. Barring a catestrophic injury, this team is as good as NY or BOS. And yet, no one is writing (on a national level) about the steal the Rays got in a 30 HR DH to put in the middle of their lineup, giving them a power hitting right hander they needed. No one is mentioning the set up reliever they picked up in Nelson. If the Yankees picked up Burrell they would be praised. The Rays? Barely a blip.

Bottom line, the Rays are the champions until someone takes it from them. Screw these writers. I look forward to the Rays proving them wrong again.

by raysfaninminnesota on Jan 29, 2009 4:46 PM EST up reply actions  

We might regress on health

Not that the team was completely healthy, but we didn’t really have any catastrophic injuries.

Regression of the bullpen is a near certainty. Bullpen consistency is the hobgoblin of GM’s minds.

Vogt early, Vogt often.

by Brickhaus on Jan 29, 2009 4:47 PM EST up reply actions  

I disagree

Kaz’s elbow injury made last year’s season a wash, Longoria missed 6 weeks. Crawford missed significant time. We were not extremely unfortunate in the injury department but we had it just as bad as anyone else. The bullpen issue is a different story. (here’s hoping Nelson can come close to duplicating last year’s numbers and take pressure off some of the other guys in our pen)

by raysfaninminnesota on Jan 29, 2009 4:49 PM EST up reply actions  

If you go into details

the comps are not close.

Kaz missed 5 starts. Crawford and Longo played 109 and 122 games.

Wang missed 17 starts, and Hughes, Kennedy, and Joba, who were expected to combine in the last 2 slots to hold down their IP, combined for 29 total. Posada played 51 games, Matsui 93.

by nyyfaninlaaland on Jan 29, 2009 6:47 PM EST up reply actions  

Kaz also wasn't the same pitcher

effectiveness after an injury is also something to consider. Also get your facts straight. Joba stayed in the bullpen until June. He gets hurt in beginning of August and then they move him back to the bullpen in September. Kennedy also struggled with ineffectiveness. Hughes is a legitmate injury.

by raysfaninminnesota on Jan 29, 2009 7:05 PM EST up reply actions  

Easy big fella

I’ve got my facts straight. The plan was for Joba to convert to starter and stay there – the tendinitis changed that.

I freely admit Kennedy’s problem was also ineffectiveness. Happens to lots of young pitchers – Niemann and Talbot didn’t set the world on fire in their limited work.

What about Kaz was so different than what he provided in the past on a performance basis? I know he was hurting and had problems with his slider, but his overall performance was certainly in line with his career. Perhaps he became a better overall pitcher being unable to rely on his good slider, but what are you expecting from him?

by nyyfaninlaaland on Jan 29, 2009 7:26 PM EST up reply actions  

sorry for the harshness

bad day…but Chamberlain only missed one month and then when he returned they decided to put him back in the bullpen. Kaz also had too many starts where he didn’t even make 5 IP let alone 6 IP. Yes, he’s never been a deep pitcher, but there was a problem that made this worse this year. Ask any Rays fan. Kaz wasn’t the same pitcher at all.

The Rays lost both Longoria and Crawford in the thick of a pennant race. Did the Yanks have it a little worse than the Rays in terms of injury, but it wasn’t that big of a discrepacy. Plus, the Yankees payroll makes that much easier to deal with.

by raysfaninminnesota on Jan 29, 2009 7:35 PM EST up reply actions  

But his IP/start wasn't that far off

Kaz was at almost exactly 6 each of the 2 prior years, and only missed that by a 1/3 inning this. That’s just a numeric fact. And his pitches per IP were up a bit, so his pitches per start were about the same. I’m not denying he was hurt at all, but eyewitness testimony on effectiveness isn’t always the most reliable.

Chamberlain went back to the pen to guard against worse injury, not because they changed their mind about wanting him to start.

The injury discrepancy was mostly in starting pitching, and it was huge, and to my mind 2 regulars only playing 140 games compared to your 2 playing 230 is a bit big too. 90 games is over 1/2 a season.

What did NY’s money get it to solve that? Sidney Ponson, at the league minimum. Plus a promoted Rasner, and the glorious return from 4 years of injury of Carl Pavano. Giese tried his best, and finally Aceves and a returning Hughes brought some late order to the chaos. NY did get Marte and Nady in July to bolster some weaknesses, but Pudge certainly didn’t solve the C situation – he was awful in NY. And the Rays picked up a pen arm more expensive than Marte in Bradford, apparently for the most mysterious PTBNL in recent memory.

By the way, what was TB’s record in August while your 2 were gone? CC left on 8/10, Longo 8/11. Longo returned 9/6. From 8/10 through 9/5 the Rays went 15-8, much better than their overall win pct. The reserves stepped up, particularly Aybar, Floyd, and Gross in August and then Aybar, Rocco, Zobrist, and Perez in Sept. Good on ’em – having their best months at the right time was handy.

by nyyfaninlaaland on Jan 29, 2009 8:52 PM EST up reply actions  

"but eyewitness testimony on effectiveness isn't always reliable"

so if a tree falls in the woods and nobody is around to hear or see it, then did it fall?
You cannot count the first two months of the season against Chamberlain not starting—that’s the fault of your management not being on the same page. And yes, they were protecting their player, but at least when he came back he was effective.

Did you watch Kazmir pitch? Everyone universally agrees that Kazmir struggled greatly last year, especially in the second half of the year.

Are you seriously comparing salaries between our two teams? Money didn’t help you last year in the rotation, but you had nearly 250 million worth of help this off-season. You’ve been the most respectful Yankees fan I’ve ever come across, but dude, you can never compare our teams. I respect the Nostalgia and history of the Yankees, but I can never respect a team that has a budget of a third world country and then takes tax dollars to fund a stadium that no average joe can afford to go to. What makes it a joy to beat NY and BOS is that we do it for 100-150 mil less.

Furthermore, if you decide to buy a bunch of veterans, you can’t complain when they break down, ala Matsui. Sorry your young pitching can’t stay healthy, but way to use the Yankee way of throwing money at a problem to fix it.

You cannot use the Rays depth against them. Just because the Rays survived in August and September doesn’t negate losing two of their best players.

by raysfaninminnesota on Jan 29, 2009 9:08 PM EST up reply actions  

FWIW

The Yankees Stadium isn’t being built with tax dollars, but they won’t need to pay any taxes on the land. Instead, they’ll be using the payments they would have made on property tax to pay down bonds issued by the city.

Same was supposed to be true for the Mets, but now that they’re way off budget, they came groveling to the city for extra money.

Vogt early, Vogt often.

by Brickhaus on Jan 30, 2009 11:11 AM EST up reply actions  

That is built with tax dollars.

It’s just them trying to be tricky and pretending it’s not.

by rglass44 on Jan 30, 2009 2:05 PM EST up reply actions  

I agree

As has been pointed out, it is unusual for a team to have its 5 starters all pitch so many games. And bullpens are notoriously volatile, especially when there is no stud like Rivera in it.

But those are the imponderables. There is no reason to think the Rays will have more injury problems than NY or Boston. If anything, NY is more vulnerable, not less, both in their regulars and in the rotation. And their bullpen is as susceptible to problems as is TBs. The same holds for Boston.

In my view, the Rays are better primed to deal with injuries than is NY. But in the end, we are talking about equivalent problems, not clear distinctions. When we look at what we can project, the talents of the players on the roster, I see no reason for the Rays to be considered significantly less competitive than the Yankees or Red Sox. Any of the three teams could win or end up in third, and the gap between them seems to me less clear than what Neyer suggests.

To me the only reason to think differently (until I see the numbers that demonstrate otherwise) is a carryover of the notion that the Rays are an interloper and an inability to fully accept their new status, a kind of anachronistic thinking.

by bobr on Jan 29, 2009 5:06 PM EST up reply actions  

You can call them imponderables

or you could say Tampa had it’s share of luck.

And pitching injury is a more equal opportunity problem – NY’s injuries there were to the young guys. Tampa is not better primed to deal with pitching injuries – how many majors starts have your 6+ starters made? Don’t count Hammel or Howell, that’s not what anyone expects of them. And pen depth? It’s better than last year, but no better than NY.

But I agree that position side depth favors the Rays.

Overall I don’t think Neyer was saying there was some yawning gap.

by nyyfaninlaaland on Jan 29, 2009 7:11 PM EST up reply actions  

Only in pitching

positional injuries were to veterans Matsui and Posada. Young, unproven pitching is a roll of the dice, no matter how much potential. Chamberlain and Hughes haven’t been around long enough to say one way or another concerning their health. Shields is a 3 year starter (around 200 IP last two years), Kazmir has been with the Rays for the same amount of time, and only last year was there any major injury issues. Garza is entering his third season, and Sonny is an innings eater with a rubber arm. Price is a little more built to handle a workload. If you look at the Rays pitchers, none of them have been overworked and only one of them is a true question mark. Anything can happen, but the Rays are solid in health, and it may not be veterans, but Niemann could do alright in the rotation and rising star Wade Davis could also fill in as well.

Secondly, the Rays do not have the payroll luxury that the Yankees have, so in that regard the Yanks are better equipped to deal with pitching injuries.

by raysfaninminnesota on Jan 29, 2009 7:41 PM EST up reply actions  

Sabbathia and Burnett are also injury risks

Sabbathia was waaay overworked in Milwaukee and Burnett has had injury issues throughout his career. Wang has had some problems along the way, and you already mentioned the injuries the young guys have had. Right now, the Yankee rotation is much more brittle than the Rays. However, anything can happen.

by raysfaninminnesota on Jan 29, 2009 7:43 PM EST up reply actions  

But pitching isn't necessarily a "brittle" thing

despite the common perception. The 3500 pitch level seems risky. By the latter, CC and Burnett make me nervous. Kaz topped that last year for the first time, and look at his 2008. But Wang had a foot injury from running the bases. Pettitte has had issues in his career, but he’s only gone under 190 IP maybe once in the last decade. Hughes had a broken rib, and Kennedy a strained lat. Not real arm problems. Joba’s had shoulder tendonitis, but they’re very cautious with him.

Then there’s the 30 IP increase concept. A number of “experts” have commented on the IP jumps of some Rays starters as a red flag – particularly re Garza and Sonny, but when you add their minors IP, they’re in line.

But as you said, anything can happen. Young pitchers break down too, maybe even more often. Let’s hope everybody stays healthy and may the best men win!

by nyyfaninlaaland on Jan 29, 2009 9:11 PM EST up reply actions  

No, he doesn't say a yawning gap.

We are quibbling over the slightest of differences of emphasis, it seems to me. I tend to read Neyer’s analysis being a bit too heavily weighted towards the Yankees, but not dramatically so. As I understand, you think he is perhaps more accurate in his appraisal than I do.

I think when we try to evaluate the likelihood of injury or ineffectiveness, we begin to shade towards fanspeak, a kind of wishful thinking. I see Burnett and remember his injury history and poor performance when not looking for a contract. You look at Kazmir and see a slight pitcher who has often been considered an injury risk. I have some confidence that Niemann, Talbot and probably Davis could fill in adequately if needed while being less confident about Kennedy, Coke, Aceves and even Hughes (although I do like him lot). My guess is you consider Niemann a middle reliever at best and Davis as too inexperienced yet while Talbot has demonstrated little in the majors unlike Hughes who had some eye opening starts the last 2 years and Aceves who proved quite good near the end of 2008.

Anyway, I stick to my core point which is that whatever record you look at, the Rays started the off-season ahead of the Yankees and like the Yankees upgraded where they needed, so I do not see why NY should be considered a favorite. I see few places where the Rays performance should decline and quite a few where they have a good chance to improve. I see more question marks on the Yankees. For example, who is more likely to improve in 2009, Crawford or Matsui? Whose injury is more likely too impede his comeback, Posada’s or Upton’s? Which offensive upgrade is more significant, Burrell over Floyd or Teixeira over Giambi?

by bobr on Jan 29, 2009 9:17 PM EST up reply actions  

Agree with you 100% on the injury talk

since it’s largely unpredictable – except in the case of Carl Pavano – it falls more in the realm of luck. But really critical luck. And Burnett makes me nervous too.

Actually, I don’t see Kaz as an injury risk. I see him as a top flight pitcher who has performed rather consistently over time, but has missed some starts some years. I think Niemann has starter potential, but not top end type. I think the same of Kennedy and Aceves, and maybe Coke – in fact Coke is the most “middle relieverish” of all to me. On Talbot and Davis, they just haven’t taken their majors lumps, and most pitchers not named Price or Joba do. And none of the 3 Rays has as many majors IP as any of NY’s, except Niemann vs.Coke. I see Hughes as the best talent, Davis as next, but think Kennedy has much more than he’s getting credit for now. NY’s next pitchers just have more majors experience, and Kennedy and Hughes have seen bad times, which I consider a telling developmental step. Price is excluded because I consider him the #5.

Your ending questions are good, but a bit flawed.

I think Crawford can improve more on his rates, but Matsui can improve his better counting stats due to increased relative playing time. Since his offensive stats are what matter since he’ll likely mostly DH, is more of what’s pretty good better than improvement but to perhaps a lesser level? That Crawford will also play defense, and does so well, perhaps tips the edge to TB. Or does Matsui not playing D tip it to NY?

Likewise Posada’s injury seems riskier given his defensive position, but he recovered well from a similar though less severe one earlier in his career. Would another 85 games of his offense at C and DH make more difference to NY than BJ’s likely improvement, while sacrificing some of Molina’s (and Pudge, Moeller’s?) better defense?

And is it fair, like in the first case, to frame the last upgrade solely offensively, when only NY is also improving their defense? Perhaps the questions just aren’t phrased quite right in terms of their full impact.

Perhaps the fairest question is each team’s change in RF – NY from Abreu to a current mix of Nady and Swisher, versus Tampa’s acquisition of Joyce, perhaps platooned with Kapler, compared to last year’s cast of characters. I don’t have an answer.

I guess I see the possibility that NY’s pitching should be much improved, while Tampa could actually slip a bit – a number of your guys had the best years of their mostly short careers. Could there be some regression despite their youth? Realistically, how much better could they they be? I see both teams as upgrading their offense overall, likely the Rays more so.

by nyyfaninlaaland on Jan 29, 2009 10:38 PM EST up reply actions  

As I said,

I don’t think we are disagreeing except perhaps where we are putting our emphasis in considering Neyer’s projection. It seems to me you are focusing on his appreciation of the Yankees upgrades and so find his labeling them the favorite accurate. I focus on his lack of a comparison of the two team’s upgrades relative to where each started and so think his label is a bit overstated. I still think the 3 teams are co-favorites with no more than a hair’s breadth between them, and uncertain which team that hair elevates.

And by the way, as baseball history sometimes reminds us, we may be overlooking something. Rarely are Toronto or Baltimore brought into the discussion. For good reason, I think, but at our peril also. I think the Orioles are doing some smart things (even if not the ones I think they should be doing, like getting value now for Mora and Huff), and even if they are not contenders in 2009, watch out after that.

I don’t see Toronto doing much to admire, but there are some very solid elements there as well, especially in run prevention. Despite injuries, they won 86 games last year and had a pythagorean record of 92 wins! That was one less than the Rays and 5 more than the Yankees. Is it wise to ignore that? I know they lost Burnett and have injury questions in the rotation, but they are a dangerous team nonetheless.

by bobr on Jan 30, 2009 7:29 AM EST up reply actions  

It's tough to say Kazmir isn't an injury risk

He’s missed a good chunk of each of half his pro seasons with injuries, and he keeps changing his delivery to compensate for pitching while hurt.

He’s probably not as much of an injury risk as Burnett though. It dumbfounds me that he’s somehow been able to get two big deals.

Vogt early, Vogt often.

by Brickhaus on Jan 30, 2009 11:13 AM EST up reply actions  

Watch out for Pittsburgh in a couple years...
I think the comparable franchises today are Baltimore, Kansas City, Washington, and Pittsburgh. And because none of those franchises have anything like the smarts of the Rays

Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.

by Sky Kalkman on Jan 29, 2009 5:37 PM EST reply actions  

Eric...

Good interview! Thank you for your hard work, buddy.

In the name of Shinji Mori, we shall win!

by thebaddancingraysfan on Jan 29, 2009 5:40 PM EST reply actions   1 recs

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