Should The Rays Trade Carlos Pena?
One of the larger topics this offseason has centered on what to do with Carl Crawford. Now that the Rays have picked up his $10 million dollar option they are left with a couple scenarios: trading him now, trading him later, signing him to an extension, or let him walk and take the compensatory pick(s). While CC is and will remain the hot topic for the unforeseeable future, I have been wondering about the Rays other $10 million dollar man, Carlos Pena.
Honestly, I try and to not play favorites, but how can you not when it comes to Carlos Pena? Nevertheless, I've come to the realization that maybe in addition to Crawford, it's time to explore the possibility of a Pena move. Of course, one isn't really reliant on the other and both, one, or none of them could be traded anyway.
Obligatory disclaimer: This is merely speculation. The Rays haven't said they are actively shopping Pena.
First, let's look at the most important fact; Pena will make $10.25 million dollars in 2010. This makes him the team's highest paid player. However, in terms of WAR, he was narrowly the seventh best Rays player this past season. If you want to make the argument that his season was cut short due to injury, Pena was not cracking the top five for the Rays regardless of a full season. This doesn't mean he wasn't valuable; a 2.6 WAR is worth $11.9 million dollars and Pena made $8 million, but the Rays highest paid player shouldn't be their fifth, sixth or seventh best player on the team.
Pena's three-year WAR average has him at a 4.2. If he is able to produce that at $10 million dollars then that is a bargain, but that average is also heavily skewed by his 6.2 WAR in the 2007 season. After posting a 3.8 in 2008, Pena was again down to 2.6 in 2009.
Offensively, there is little doubt that Pena can, and will, still mash. The player friendly projection of Bill James has him slugging .498 in 2010 and I think that may be a bit on the low side. It's the other portions of Pena's game that had me worried. While the Power remains, his patience at the plate and his sharp batting eye have wandered slightly the past few seasons.
After posting a lovely 17.4% walk rate in 2007, Pena's BB% has declined in the past few seasons. Coinciding with the decline in walks is an increase in strikeouts, and not surprisingly an increase in swings on pitches out of the zone.
|
|
BB% |
K% |
O-Swing% |
|
2007 |
17.4 |
29 |
19.8 |
|
2008 |
16.4 |
33.9 |
20.8 |
|
2009 |
15.6 |
34.6 |
23.6 |
Walking 15% of the time is still pretty good, but the K's are at an all time high. Even though we know this is part of his game, it's still not a trend you want to see.
Defensively, Pena had a pretty rough season finishing with a UZR of -4.6. However, his three year average is ever so slightly above average at 0.4. Odds are he will be right at average or slightly below in the field next year, unless 2009 was just the beginning of a defensive avalanche.
Beyond the high salary and some production concerns, there are also the compensation issue. Trading Pena won't net the same type of return as Crawford and nobody should expect such a thing. However, for a team who's looking for power, can accept a few flaws, and afford the price tag, Pena is very attractive option even if it's for a one year rental. I'm not going to speculate on a return, but I'm guessing the Rays could do pretty well in any potential deal.
What I do want to look at is the return if Pena is retained and then walks at the end of the season. According to Eddie Bajek's Elias Projections, Carlos Pena is a type B free agent. Remember, this is based on his 2008 and 2009 seasons. When/if Pena hits the market next season, his compensation will be based on 2009 and 2010. Usually players who have declined over a three-year period while getting older don't improve from one season to the next, however, there are always exceptions. Nonetheless, a Type-A ranking for first basemen doesn't come easy; none of the 2009 free agent first basemen have Type-A status and only Mark Teixiera earned it in 2008.
I have no idea how the Elias rankings are created, but over the two years before he hit free agency, Teixeira averaged a slash line of .307/.406/.557 with nearly 32 home runs. Over the last two seasons, Pena has averaged .237/.367/.515 with 35 bombs. I'm going to assume that to obtain a Type-A status, Pena's going to need to regain his 2007 form and then some, which is unlikely. What's more than likely to happen is Pena will retain Type-B status and his former team will receive a supplemental pick instead of the potential two picks a Type-A would.
This raises another issue. Getting draft picks for potential free agents is not necessarily a good thing for the Rays. Sure, adding young talent is always welcomed, but even late first round picks cost money (see LeVon Washington). The Rays already have four high picks in next year's draft. If they aren't able to sign all four they will receive an addittional compensatory pick(s) in 2011. This will be in addition to their regular pick and any potential picks received from free agents with "type" status( Crawford, Pena, etc.). That could end up as a lot of money for unproven talent; or on a few picks not wasted, per se, but picks not maximized due to budget restrictions.
Once more, Pena is still a good player and even at $10 million dollars should still provide value, but for a Rays team looking to cut corners in places to improve others, a look in his direction is smart business. Replacing Pena wouldn't be easy, but it wouldn't be as hard as say, replacing a Carl Crawford.
For example, Russell Branyan is a free agent. Coming off a 2.8 WAR season, Branyan could give you similar production for probably half the cost. Branyan is also looking for a two-year deal, so he may not be ideal. The Rays could go the platoon route and find a dance partner for Willy Aybar. Another former Ray, Eric Hinske could work well with Aybar. Or the Rays could go the unconventional route and move Ben Zobrist to first allowing Sean Rodriguez to get the bulk of the time at second base. I could go on rosterbating, but you get the point.
There are the intangibles: leadership, smile%, pre-game dances, and between pitch mound meetings, but in terms of things we can measure, exploring a deal involving Pena seems prudent for a team that is constantly working around the big payroll elephant in the room.
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65 comments
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Comments
While I agree that there probably isn't a need to keep Pena around at that price,
I was assumming the talks centered around Crawford because the return would be much higher.
Why don’t we compare across position for 1B and DHs when it comes to this? While 10mil is high for a 3 WAR-type player, if there are only, lets say, 6 or 7 better major league 1B then, because of market scarcity, can that contribute to inflation of his value? If he is a top 1/3rd 1B (just speculating) then should he be paid as such or based purely on his value? Does this pretty much mean other positions should be focused on when acquiring players before 1B/DH?
The question I ask myself in these situations
Is the production of Pena over say a Aybar/Hinske(?) platoon worth the difference in ~$7 million dollars in salary? Then I look at where the potential savings in salary can be allocated. If we can get a ~2 WAR platoon at 1B for $3 million dollars and take the rest of the money to improve the bullpen, and maybe catcher would that be a better allocation of resources?
www.draysbay.com
by Tommy Rancel on Nov 18, 2009 8:43 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
I understand this concept more in the OF because defense has a much more definative effect and therefore good OFs can be gotten cheap more easily
Are there enough cheap, viable 1B platoon options that play other positions (bringing in someone to sit on the bench as merely a platoon player at 1B seems like a waste) that it is worth it to try for it. Theoretically, yes, I would take a 3.5mil salary for a 2 win player at 1B over Pena’s 10mil salary for somewhere around 3 wins becuase that 6.5 mil probably serves us better at a different position where defense is more noticeable. I’m just no sure if there is really a good match for us, although already having Aybar could make this valid.
That is true. Paying a guy to strickly platoon at one position
Probably isn’t the way to maximize the bench. It would depend on who that player(s) is. I’m sure the Rays will explore every option available even if it’s never made public.
www.draysbay.com
by Tommy Rancel on Nov 18, 2009 9:35 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Yea thats the key
Always explore your options. Its never as easy as saying we need to trade this guy. Thats when bad trades (hopefully Milton Bradley occur). Unless your back is against the wall (Jason Hammel), there is no way for anyone outside the organization to know whether trading Pena is a good or bad idea.
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by FreeZorilla on Nov 18, 2009 10:05 AM EST up reply actions
If I read Tommy right, this is a "future is now" mentality at work.
The issue is not whether to consider trading Pena for prospects, but whether it is possible to replace his production enough now so that commensurate improvements elsewhere can make the team more competitive in 2010 than it would be with him and his salary at 1B. And to sweeten the deal, might it even be possible in addition to add to the system’s talent base so as to extend the period in which the team remains a contender.
I don't see many scenarios where we're able to replicate
Carlos’ impact on the team in ’10, at the plate, in the field or in the clubhouse
You may be right.
It may not be possible. But that is still not the point. Rather, it seems to me, the point is to remain open to the possibility so that should there be such a deal available the Rays can jump on it. What we are looking at is avoiding dogma or conventional thinking.
I think problems arise when teams declare someone untouchable or from a fan’s perspective when we automatically assume that some things must or must not be done. What I see the Rays doing is remaining open to all possibilities unrestrained by convention and evaluating based on sound principles rather than on the traditional book.
I do not read Tommy saying the Rays should trade Pena or even that they should actively shop him. Only that we should remain open to the possibilities of such a move and not discount it automatically because by traditional approaches it seems bizarre.
Correct
I’m not saying trade Pena as a salary dump. It would be a process of moves; getting good value in a trade for Pena, having a plan in place to replace his production in 2010 adequately, take the savings in salary and spread it to a weaker area of the team (RP, C) and incorporate whatever the trade return would be into the organizations long term plans. Would the Rays get a few arms for Pena? Maybe a young catcher and an arm?
www.draysbay.com
by Tommy Rancel on Nov 18, 2009 8:58 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Moving Sean Rodriguez to 1st would make more sense than Zobrist given Zobrist has shown that
he’s at minimum a plus defensive 2B and at best an elite one.
Tools Whore
Yea, I was just looking to get them both on the field at the same time.
Assuming Zobrist regresses a bit, I’m not sure either bat would hold up at 1B.
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by Tommy Rancel on Nov 18, 2009 8:53 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Brignac has an inch or two on Zo, tough to keep a guy who is 6'3 plus at SS for long.
Another possibility?
Uh, his bat definately would not hold up at first.
And despite the 6’3 thing, he is an excellent defender.
Not to mention the whole “too tall to play short” is a bit of a myth.
HE'S A LINEBACKER
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by FreeZorilla on Nov 18, 2009 10:05 AM EST up reply actions
OT: Burleson or Slaton this week?
I’ve got Romo, Mendenhall, Wells, DeSean Jackson, Lee Evans, Packers D, Kaeding, and Celek, all of whom I fell pretty confident about.
Burleson
I don’t like that depth though.
Why do you kill threads????
by Some other guy who does not care on Nov 18, 2009 11:26 AM EST up reply actions
Meh, I'm good for 90-100 points a week. I'm tied for 4th with three weeks to go, so I'm in position to make the playoffs.
My big problem is I don’t have a workhorse like MJD, Chris Johnson, Manning… you know, someone who racks up fantasy points without breaking a sweat. My first round pick was LDT and he didn’t give me a great week until last week.
Why
did you go with LDT? He is as frustrating as any tampa bay running back in fantasy right now. Given Chance, My team beats your team any day of the week.
Why do you kill threads????
by Some other guy who does not care on Nov 18, 2009 12:01 PM EST up reply actions
My team mops the floor with you schmoes
I'm not really a NUMBERS guy!!
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Nov 18, 2009 12:06 PM EST up reply actions
Because I picked 7th and I figured he might rebound.
So, shut the fuck up, Drays Bay user “Some other guy who does not care.”
Ban lifted, I can speak
The Rays lost a lot of clubhouse leadership last season and it showed. Pena would cause a catastrophic loss in the clubhouse. However, they are going to have to get rid of him at some point, so it’s a matter of when is best. Pena is making huge bucks so unless he accepts less as a FA, the clock is ticking.
Pena provides major pop and up to this season excellent glovework at 1B. At this point, the Rays are going to need all the help they can get to try to win the AL East next season, and Pena offers the best 1B option to do that.
We don’t know what others will offer for Pena. That is what will sway the deal in any direction. It appears the Rays are taking the approach on all their veteran players that unless they are blown away with an offer, they are going to take this team and give it another shot, hoping what they get from those who rebound from bad seasons in addition to what they had last year. Pena and his amazing second half surges can pay huge dividends again this next season during the stretch run.
by raysfaninminnesota on Nov 18, 2009 9:08 AM EST reply actions
This.
I’d personally like to see him traded because I hate the fact that when he goes cold, it’s like he vacations to Iceland; despite how his production averages out overall. However, there’s just no better or comparable options out there. Pena’s replacement either has serious bat or serious glove problems.
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
Longshot
What I would like to see is a series of trades that include Bartlett, Crawford and Pena that land A-Gone and a legit catching prospect like Carlos Santana or Wilson Ramos.
by Barnese and Bailey Circus on Nov 18, 2009 10:31 AM EST reply actions
What you seem to be suggesting
is moving players that will make a total of nearly $25 MM in 2010 for one guy (Gonzo) that is making less than $5MM and with a favorable option for 2011 and 1 of 2 good C prospects each with 3 years ahead making the minimum, to teams that appear to have salary constraints.
Did I read that right?
by nyyfaninlaaland on Nov 19, 2009 2:54 AM EST up reply actions
Trade partners
How would the Giants pair up up as a trade partner for Pena? Don’t know what they could offer, but keep hearing that they are looking for a power bat either at 1B or LF. Or would Burrell be a good fit for them?
by Blue or CONKZILLA on Nov 18, 2009 12:19 PM EST reply actions
Pena, Burrell, Bartlett, and Crawford for
Posey, Bumgarner, Lincecum, Alderson, Noonan, Ishikawa, Sandoval, & Bowker. That should about do it.
I'm not really a NUMBERS guy!!
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Nov 18, 2009 12:28 PM EST up reply actions
Sorry that I didn't include any relievers, maybe Lincey wants to be our 7th inning guy.
I'm not really a NUMBERS guy!!
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Nov 18, 2009 3:27 PM EST up reply actions
We don't have Alderson anymore :-(
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
GET THAT VORP AND WHIP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!
Deals off then
I'm not really a NUMBERS guy!!
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Nov 18, 2009 11:03 PM EST up reply actions
Pena, Bartlett, Crawford for
Posey, Sosa, Noonan, Ishikawa, Runzler, Quirarte, Lewis?
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
GET THAT VORP AND WHIP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!
This is a vastly inferior deal
No Bumcicum, no deal.
I'm not really a NUMBERS guy!!
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Nov 19, 2009 9:31 AM EST up reply actions
Hahaha
Maybe I should run some trades through Sky’s Trade Value Calculator…
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
GET THAT VORP AND WHIP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!
Pena to the Mets
Pena for Ike Davis. I would consider signing Delgado to an incentive laden deal as the replacement.
All the teams in the hunt for A. Gonzalez in SD could view Pena as a fall back. Boston might come to the table, but I am not sure they want to trade in the division.
Without looking at values or contracts, I love Loney
We could use a guy that is more of a contact hitter in this lineup.
I'm not really a NUMBERS guy!!
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Nov 18, 2009 12:51 PM EST up reply actions
Am I correct in reading that he has one more free year?
I'm not really a NUMBERS guy!!
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Nov 18, 2009 12:53 PM EST up reply actions
I would rather have one more year of Pena
than Loney. His slg and ISO this year were .399 and .118. To give you a comparison BJ’s were .373 and .132 and we all know how bad of a season he had with the bat. At least BJ is still an above average CF coming off an offseason where he was injured. Loney is a below average fielding 1b who at his age should be improving, yet his power has been regressing the last three years.
BJ's power was the least of his problems
His pitch recognition deteriorated so badly, particularly vs LHP. His ISO was actually up from 2008 but his OBP dropped fell .070 to .313 year over year. 2008 BJ would have made a great leadoff man.
Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla
I agree
and still think he will a very good leadoff guy, hopefully as soon as this year. I just used him as an example because most of us would agree he struggled most of the season. The idea of our 1b having power that would be considered weak for MI scares me some.
Russell Branyon would be okay
but he’s Carlos Pena with even less of a glove
and besides Carlos would be missed he has been fun to watch with the Rays, but of course $ also plays a part which sucks
Gerald Wallace is the best player the Bobcats will have..... EVER
The Rays already had and got rid of Branyan. I don't think they're going to want him back after a breakout season.
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
if the Rays are not in a serious playoff hunt by mid-season...
Pena will be gone.
CC will be gone.
BJ will be gone.
Barty will be gone.
Garza will be gone.
Balfour will be gone.
Ried will be the shortstop
Aybar will fill-in at first base
Desmond will your CF
Joyce, Ruggiano, Zobrist will be your OF
Davis or Sonny will fill Garza’s spot.
However if we are in the playoffs, i don’t see any the above being dealt. If we are in the race, and thanks to the Bucs not mattering, I think attendance will be up this year.
In the name of Shinji Mori, we shall win!
by thebaddancingraysfan on Nov 18, 2009 2:33 PM EST reply actions
This is absolutely insane. The Rays would have to be 50 games under .500 by the ASB for something like this to even possibly be considered.
And even then, two cost-controlled players in Garza and BJ? This just reeks of troll.
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
Personally, I don't feel that any of the player will SERIOUSLY be gone.
I feel we will have fine team, and will be serious contention all year long. I feel the Rays got a shot at the East and the wild-card. Go get ’em Rays!
In the name of Shinji Mori, we shall win!
by thebaddancingraysfan on Nov 18, 2009 3:22 PM EST up reply actions
Why do we consider arb players "cost controlled"?
The average raise for arb eligible players far outstrips that gotten by most FA’s.
And all this talk of Gonzalez is just nuts. SD doesn’t need to cut any more payroll. They were at $43.7 MM to start ‘09, have about $27.5 of that going off the books, with $3.65 MM of contracted increases for ’10 and 4 arbs (Correia, Bell, Kouz, and Mike Adams). They’re looking at a payroll of around $30MM right now.
It will take a king’s ransom in prospects/players to land Gonzalez.
by nyyfaninlaaland on Nov 19, 2009 3:04 AM EST up reply actions
It usually depends on the talent level.
Garza likely won’t out-pace his free market value until his final arbitration year assuming his statistics stay flat (which by and large is a dangerous assumption). On the other hand, if Navarro gets his typical arbitration raise this year, he’ll already have outpaced it.
Regardless, I think the concept of cost-controlled points to the fact that the team more then likely knows what it’s going to take to resign him, seeing how arbitration acts just like one-year contracts. ‘Team control’ is probably the better verbiage to use, since that’s REALLY what it is, I just haven’t gotten more then 4 hours of sleep since Sunday and it’s got me a little worn out.
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
I agree with Pena, CC and Bartlett
But the rest of it? Ehhhhh
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
Possible Pena replacement
What about trading for Yonder Alonso? He’s blocked by Joey Votto in Cincinnati and neither can play anything but 1B. He’s sort of an anti-Pena in that he doesn’t strike out at all but doesn’t have a ton of power. He does have good pitch recognition and draws a decent number of walks.
Vroom vroom party starter
www.raysprospects.com
I get the vibe that Cincy isn't looking to take on any payroll whatsoever.
I do think that we could use a high walk/contact hitter to give our lineup a little variation, I just don’t think Cincy would take Pena’s $$$.
I'm not really a NUMBERS guy!!
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Nov 18, 2009 3:14 PM EST up reply actions
They wouldn't want Pena anyway with Votto there.
These kind of deals never happen, but a prospect(s)-for-prospect(s) swap would be pretty nice.
Vroom vroom party starter
www.raysprospects.com
by Imperialism32 on Nov 18, 2009 3:28 PM EST up reply actions
I'm not good at doing these, keep that in mind as here we go:
Reds get:
Willy Aybar
Jason Bartlett
Rays get:
Yonder Alonso
Ryan Hanigan
Arthur Rhodes
Jonny Gomes
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
I just ran this through Kalkman's trade calcluator and confirmed that I am indeed an idiot.
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
I kept reading that the Reds were going to shift Votto to LF.
Good choice in taking Alonso over Beckham, fellas.
I'm a Brett Favre honk so FUCK YOU!
by PriceMultiCyYoungs on Nov 18, 2009 3:16 PM EST up reply actions
There is some talk that Arizona will non-tender Conor Jackson.
I understand he is not a good fielder, and his power has been disappointing. Also, his illness this year was very serious and I have read sometimes has long term repercussions. But I notice he is hitting well in the Dominican Winter League (.425/.561/.589 with 6 doubles, 2 home runs, 21 BBs, 13 Ks and is 9-0 in stolen bases????). It is not the numbers that interest me so much as the fact he has 73 ABs in 23 games, which is nearly every game the team has played so far. That suggests he may be recovering.
He will be 28 in May.
I like his game and he can play multiple positions, could be a great low-risk signing
I'm not really a NUMBERS guy!!
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Nov 18, 2009 5:34 PM EST up reply actions
Aubrey Huff can play multiple positions...
just not very well, just like Mr. Jackson.
In the name of Shinji Mori, we shall win!
by thebaddancingraysfan on Nov 19, 2009 12:25 AM EST up reply actions

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