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The Definitive Carl Crawford Off-Season Post

Photo

More photos » by Steve Nesius - AP

It seems odd, but the most compelling Rays hot stove item has nothing to do with this off-season. Well, it has something to do with this year, just not as much as it does with next year, or the year after next. All eyes will be on the Rays and a certain free agent after this season. Will there be an extension? A trade? Will the Rays just let him walk? I'm not talking about Carlos Pena or Pat Burrell. Instead, obviously, Carl Crawford. It seems like just yesterday Crawford signed the extension. So let's examine the three means of action the Rays can take with Crawford moving forward.

Extension

Let's start with the basics. Crawford's birthday in early August turned him 28-years-old, the period in which most baseball players begin experiencing their statistical prime. Next year is the final year of a four-year, $15.25M extension (which included two club options worth $18.25M) signed way back in April 2005. He is the organization's career leader in plate appearances, runs scored, hits, doubles, triples, strikeouts, and stolen bases. Many would describe him as the Rays' franchise player, although Evan Longoria has a fine argument too.

Over the last three years Crawford has posted wOBA's (stolen bases included) of .367, .319, and .365. In 2006, Crawford's wOBA was .368. Consistency. Defensively, Crawford is the best left fielder in baseball and it's not particularly close. Last three years UZR/150: 17.5, 25.6, -1.4. I'm not sure what happened in 2007 (horrible ARM rating mostly) but weigh that however you wish and the end result is Crawford being a plus-plus defender. That means 10 < x < 15 runs every season with maybe a down season or two.

If you examine Crawford's defense a little closer, you'll find that Crawford's best asset is (unsurprisingly) his range. Since 2002 Crawford's range ratings are as follows:

 

Year RngR INN
2002 5.4 561.3
2003 13.7 1159.3
2004 16.6 1010
2005 15.6 1246.7
2006 12.1 1251.3
2007 1.2 1186.3
2008 21.4 920.7
2009 17.6 1282.7

 

Crawford's top two seasons by RngR have came over the last two years. That's insane to think about. Most research has indicated that defensive skills begin to decay well before their offensive skills brethren. We're talking mid-20s instead of early-30s. Crawford plays a position with normally weak defenders, and UZR is scaled to league average, so +20 in 2009 may have been +25 in 2005, still it's remarkable to think he's only gotten better relative to the rest of the league's left fielders.

The time period in which UZR encompasses doesn't help much when trying to look at how players with similar skill sets at similar ages progressed. Those players are still around Crawford's age. or weren't to begin with. and that just complicates any type of comparison or projection based on historical context. We'll get back into this in a few paragraphs once we start looking at comparable players.

Star-divide

The problem (and something even the most knowledgeable on the situation will have only marginally more information than us about) is whether the turf will affect Crawford's aging more so than if he played on grass all these years. He's complained multiple times and the Rays have done their best to curb the damage by giving him multiple days off at a time. Has that helped? Who knows.  

In order to do the impossible and project the future, let's take a look at ZiPS[1] top three comparable players[2] to Crawford, and how they aged.: Gene Richards, Steve Finley, and Mitch Webster.

Richards was a 6'0", 175 lbs. lefty from South Carolina State University. The San Diego Padres made him the first selection in the 1975 amateur draft and he reached the majors two seasons later as a 23-year-old and hit .290/.363/.390. He would play in 462 games over the next three years, batting .296/.363/.390 and would fall off over the ensuing four seasons as he played in only 418 games and possessed a .716 OPS. Like Crawford, Richards stole bases and mostly played left. Unlike Crawford, he never played a game after turning 31-years-old in 1984.

Finley is the most well-known player of the three since he's the most recent in our conscious. Holder of the longest career of the trio, Finley broke into the majors in 1989 as a 24-year-old and didn't exit until after a brief stint in 2007 with the Colorado Rockies as a 42-year-old. It's easy to say he was also the most successful since he batted .271/.332/.442.

Webster was a switch-hitting high school kid from Kansas who broke into the majors as a 24-year-old in 1983 with Toronto. He would move to the other Canadian team within two years which began a career as a journeyman. After Montreal he moved to the north side of Chicago, then to Cleveland, then Pittsburgh, and finally to Los Angeles where he finished his career in 1995 as a 36-year-old. His career line: .263/.330/.401.

Here's a graphical look at how the three progressed by age:  

54_1010907_1013719_of_aseason_full_8_20091006_medium

For our purposes (A.K.A: because FanGraphs only allows for three players on these neat comparison graphs) Richards is a bit out of sorts. Barring something unforeseen, Crawford is playing past the date he turns 30. Even if he loses an arm someone will employ him as a pinch runner. If he loses a leg he's still bound to be quicker than Raul Casanova. Two things to note: 1) Crawford was in the majors before most of these guys were drafted, 2) Crawford has been better than both to this point despite that.  As seen here:

54_1201_1013719_of_aseason_full_8_20091006_medium

There isn't a clear comparison to Crawford out of those three. Johnny Damon is one that always comes up as well. This seems to work better than any of the ZiPS comparables. Damon broke into the minors at an early age, and while his performance was lesser than Crawford's in the early years, he had a better run before hitting his prime which ... wasn't' much of a prime. He was still good (and still is with the bat) but if Crawford follows his path then he's already had his best offensive season.

In the UZR era Damon has never marked as an above average defender. He had two seasons (one in 2002, the other in 2007) with a positive ranking, but for the most part he's never had the range that Crawford displays and his arm is weaker.

With all of this information we need to know what to expect from Crawford not just in 2010, but also in 2011, 2012, heck maybe 2015. Whether Crawford's agent knows about WAR or not is irrelevant. His client is making $10M in 2010 and coming off his second best offensive season. There is little reason or incentive to sign a contract that pays Crawford less than $10M annually without even checking the market.   Same can be said for taking a four-year deal. Odds are, Jason Bay will get a four-year deal, he's not as young as Carl will be and he has old player skills. If Bay can get that, then Carl damn sure can get five or six years.

Thanks to a 5.5 WAR season this year, Crawford's average wins total the past three years is just under 4. That's slightly worse than his impressive stretch from 2004-6 in which he totaled at least 4.5 WAR annually without touching 5. Let's set the baseline for next year at 4. Maybe he exceeds that expectation, maybe he doesn't, this is a conservative projection and when performing this type of analysis you should aim for the medium or even high-end of the probability scale more so than the low-end (i.e. what is Crawford MOST likely to perform like rather than WHAT IF he starts hitting for more power. That would be a nice bonus though.)

So, if 2010 is 4, then let's make 2011 3.6. And 2012 3.2, and so on. Let's also assume he signs a four-year deal with the Rays because he likes the area and feels they are committed to winning - note: I know I totally went for the "He can get more length on the open market" angle earlier, and I think it's true, this is just another hypothetical - that means we have a WAR line of: 4, 3.6, 3.2, 2.8, and 2.4. Of course, with free agents you aren't paying for the future as much as the past, meaning Crawford's probably making more than the 2.8 WAR is worth, but there's no way around it, barring club options and such.  Here's how this works out:

Year WAR $perW FA$
2011 3.6 5.86 21.096
2012 3.2 6.44 20.608
2013 2.8 7.09 19.852
2014 2.4 7.79 18.696

That's four-years, $80M. Say Crawford just loves the team and takes a 10% discount, that's still 4/72, or $18M/year on average. Odds are a deal like that is structured so Crawford makes something like 14/18/20/20. That gives the Rays a small window to generate more revenue (roughly three seasons from now) until they have to start paying $20M to one player. Realistically, this could lead to Crawford being traded before those huge, huge paydays kick in. It just depends on how everything else works out.

Maybe Crawford takes fewer dollars than he's worth, but betting on that happening again is like betting on back-to-back-to-back rolls of snake eyes. The Rays have never reached the point where they paid a single player $20M during a season. Looking at Evan Longoria and James Shields' contracts respectively, they max out under $13M. That means an investment of this size is unprecedented. Now, again, it may happen, but realistically it's going to take a heck of an unselfish effort by Crawford and his agent, and if they aren't willing to make that sacrifice once more then there should be no ill will beseeched upon them.  Their responsibility is to is look out for Crawford, not the Rays.

With such you have to look at the contingency plans. That would be Desmond Jennings, Ben Zobrist, or Matt Joyce. You also have to keep in mind that signing Crawford is not a vacuum maneuver. By allocating those future dollars to him, you take away the potential of signing B.J. Upton or someone else for the long-haul. It's a bit of a false dichotomy to name a single player from the current roster because in three years this team will look almost nothing like it does today. Just keep the ramifications in mind.

If Crawford is unlikely to be a Ray next year around this time, then that leaves two options. 1) Trading him at some point over the next 12 months or 2) letting him walk as a free agent and getting draft compensation in exchange. Let's examine both options.

Trade

The time to do this was last deadline. Advocating a trade now is going to mean taking less value than most would like. Buster Posey is not coming back for Crawford. Much like with the ignorance of the agent or the selflessness of Crawford, you cannot - reread that - assume every General Manager is going to swoon over Crawford so much as to give the Rays six years of a near-ready catcher. There are some GMs who taking advantage of is easier than others, but nobody is quite that dumb[3].

The return for one year of Crawford is probably less than you would hope. Even with some wins-starved GM out there looking to add one final piece. Further, trading Crawford becomes even more tricky due to the Rays almost certainly being in contention beyond the trade deadline. That leaves the waiver period (two months of Crawford would bring back even less) and that's about it.

Maybe someone offers a fantastic deal this off-season but I'm not counting on it. Which leaves ...  

Free Agency

Otherwise known as: getting draft compensation while having zero say over whether Crawford stays in the league or division. Besides the fact that Crawford is projected to be a Type-B (no, really)[4], this is also a bit risky because if a top-15 team signs Crawford then the Rays don't even land an extra first round pick, instead just a compensation and round two pick. And remember, this is assuming Crawford achieves Type-A status. Which, he should, but the ratings system is inherently flawed and like most things MLB, probably not changing anytime soon.  

There's no guarantee the Rays get a good player in those slots, but as Dave Cameron showed a while back, this seems to work out better than trading a guy in his final year. Let me quote Cameron's conclusion verbatim:

Now, this isn't a completely thorough cost/benefit analysis. By trading for prospects, you're not incurring the costs of signing the players, as you are with compensation picks, so the financial outlay is several million dollars higher by going with the draft picks. The payoffs are going to happen a year or two later by taking the draft picks versus taking the prospects in most cases.

But, the evidence is clear - the expected return by trading an all-star in the last year of his contract is not any higher than the expected return of letting that player walk at the end of the season and collecting two draft picks as compensation. The Trade Ichiro brigade are living on a false premise. The organization will not be any better off by dealing Ichiro in July than they would be if he left in October of his own free will.

When you factor in the added value of still having Ichiro on the team in August and September, the exclusive two week negotiating window that the team would have with him at the end of the season, and the actual chance (no matter how slim you think it is) that he might re-sign with the team, and the best path is astoundingly clear.

The Rays have never received a compensation pick for a player. Never. That's not too hard to believe because prior to the new administration you had three types of players with this franchise.

1. Players at the end of their careers.

2. Players who didn't belong in the league.

3. Youngsters, years away from free agency.

The first tier is for players like Wade Boggs, Al Martin, Jose Canseco, and Greg Vaughn. Tier two is players like old Al Martin, young Reggie Taylor, and Jason Smith. The third tier is full of guys like Rocco Baldelli, Crawford, Aubrey Huff, Chad Gaudin, Chad Orvella, and so on. The tiers the Rays were missing included "Players in post-free agency extensions" and "Free agent acquisitions", amongst other things the organization lacked.

Before taking over, the new guys gave the green light to re-sign Crawford, they then locked up Baldelli, and eventually traded Danys Baez, Lance Carter, Huff, Toby Hall, Mark Hendrickson, and Julio Lugo before any of them reached free agency. Were those the right moves? Impossible to say for sure, but one of the advantages of trading is being able to identify the players of whom are available. Trying to project the 2011 draft class at this rate is impossible. Trying to identify whether the player at pick 25 will be more valuable than Prospect Y is insane.

Still, as long as this franchise has existed there has never - ever - been a more important decision than what will take place with Crawford. There are obstacles and almost certainly trapdoors sitting just beyond the horizon. Trading Scott Kazmir was easy. Doing anything with Crawford is going to require some intensive attention to detail and obsession with rechecking and then checking once more just to make sure everything is in order since, you know, Crawford is basically a tax return form.

Copping out is something I hate to do. I like being definitive when plausible and declarative when necessary, but really I have no flipping clue what I would like done with Crawford. An extension to keep Crawford as the true Rays player would be fantastic, however I know it's unrealistic, and further I fear what this could lead to down the road. A trade or Crawford leaving via free agency will cause me an infinite  amount of headaches if I'm still on this site and sane at that point. [5]

Feel comfortable with this front office in control. At worst they'll trade Crawford and get the best possible return which eclipses the draft return. At best they bedazzle Crawford and his agent into a deal that defers money 20-25 years down the road in exchange for less money now. As much as I love this current ownership and management, it seems unlikely they'll be here a quarter of a decade from now. Although, if they are, I won't be complaining.

I guess the same can be said for Carl Crawford and the 2010-1 Rays. Here's to finding out the answer sooner rather than later this off-season.



[1] I hesitate to use PECOTA for a few reasons. A) It's paid content, meaning I don't know how much sharing they consider too much. B) PECOTA isn't spelled with D. Still, for those interested, the top comparables are Deion Sanders, Darin Erstad, Terry Puhl, Johnny Damon, Claudell Washington, Lou Brock, Willie Davis, Willie Wilson, Lloyd Moseby, and Blake McBride. Marquis Grissom, Steve Finley, and Coco Crisp show up in the next 10.

[2] And for those who prefer Baseball-Reference's similar players, the top 10 through age 26 are Roberto Clemente, Whitey Lockman, Jimmy Sheckard, Sam Crawford, Johnny Damon, Claudell Washingotn, Tim Raines, Mike Tiernan, Rickey Henderson, and Buddy Lewis. The top 10 overall are Blake McBride, Phil Bradley, Freddy Leach, George Wtakins, Charley Jones, Danny Green, Socks Seyboid, Harry Rice, Bug Holliday, and Frank Catalanotto.

[3] A good rule to follow when rosterbating is this: if you are adamantly for a trade as a fan of your team, then go ahead and add another player or two heading to the other team. For instance, I'd do Crawford for Felix Hernandez all day. So I'll add Reid Brignac to the fold to try and even things out. It works. Trust me.

[4] Darren Oliver: Type-A. Carl Crawford: Type-B.  

[5] The terms "as an analyst" and "as a fan" have been thrown around often. Few have used the "as a blogger on a site with rampant community functions and capabilities ..." tag yet though. I cannot wait until the first "RAYS ARE CHEAP BECAUSE CRAWFORD SIGNED WITH THE YANKEES FOR 100 MIL" FanPost.

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tldr

Nah, just kidding. Good stuff. I do wonder how Zips gets its comps. Finley’s not a horrible comp I guess, but even though he didn’t walk a ton, his approach at the plate seemed very different thank Crawford’s. The other guy who has always been near the tops of my comps list, and who his career has really mirrored pretty closely up to this point, is Claudell Washington.

Also, BR ‘overall’ comps are pretty useless for active players or guys at the end of their careers. I imagine at that level, the Zips comps are better anyway.

Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."

by Brickhaus on Nov 9, 2009 8:43 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

So we're trading Craw and Briggy for Felix Hernandez?

HELLS YEAH BOIIIIII. Great read.

I'm not really a NUMBERS guy!!

by Andy Hellicksonstine on Nov 9, 2009 9:39 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Let's get one thing straight: CC is not clearing 20 mil a season

Roger Clemens, $28,000,022 (2007)
Alex Rodriguez, $27,500,000 (2008-17)
Alex Rodriguez, $25,200,000 (2001-10)
CC Sabathia, $23,000,000 (2009-15)
Johan Santana, $22,916,667 (2008-13)
Manny Ramirez, $22,500,000 (2009-10)
Mark Teixeira, $22,500,000 (2009-16)
Roger Clemens, $22,000,022 (2006)
Manny Ramirez, $20,000,000 (2001-08)

only 6 players have cracked 20 mil, and as much as I love CC and as much as I love his potential as a HOF. Only 3 are position players (Ramirez, Teixiera, ARod) and 2 of those players are on the Yankees. Could see Yankees going after him if he is a FA, but at most he will get 16-18 mil…if that. 15 sounds like a solid benchmark and probably a fair assessment to begin with.

Now if we can accurately examine 15 mil as a range that teams outside the Yankees may consider, then the Rays, if there is a hometown discount have to fall somewhere between 10-15 mil a season.

If CC resigns with the Rays it’ll be something like 4 yrs 40-50 mil. If CC wants more than that (and he obviously can get more on the market) plain and simple he won’t be a Ray after next season (if he lasts that long). The Rays can’t afford to sink that much money into one player, especially at a position of organizational depth.

Gut instinct says CC wants to resign and signs a 4 yr 50 mil extension.

by raysfaninminnesota on Nov 9, 2009 9:55 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

IMO....

It makes almost zero sense for the Rays to sign CC long term. Unless he drops his askins price 30%, which would be idiotic. This is a business. These players are treated as commodities by these teams. If the player is worthless, they dont sign them to long term extensions and give them millions of dollars out of the kindness of their hearts. And the player should not do that either.

I see CC geting something in the $13-15 million per yr range(probably closer to $15). The Rays have in house solutions at a much reduced cost. Jennings and Joyce come immediately to mind, and that money could be spent elsewhere.

by td32 on Nov 9, 2009 10:25 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

just looking at maximized resources

the Rays would be better off trading CC this off-season and then having another 10 million dollars in a depressed free agent market (aka many good buys) along with whatever they get in return for CC. It makes the most sense for the Rays this year and the best ability to win this season based on the outfield depth (Joyce and Jennings). The question is, how would you spend 10 mil in this free agent market in addition to the 5 mil or so they were already planning to spend?

by raysfaninminnesota on Nov 9, 2009 11:30 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Stock motto

Buy low sell high……CC hit his peak and his value isn’t geting higher than it is now. Speed guys such as CC fade quickly in their 30’s with a few exceptions. I don’t want to sound like a “Carl Hater”, but he isn’t one of those exceptions.

Just think of the Catching prospects we could get in return……

Mound Visit

by Mound Visit on Nov 9, 2009 11:42 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Overbay looks to be bringing Chris Snyder

I would hope Craw could fetch an on-the-verge catcher and then some.

I'm not really a NUMBERS guy!!

by Andy Hellicksonstine on Nov 9, 2009 12:13 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Where did I say he'd clear $20M PER season?

I said $18M and the Rays can structure it so it would top $20M in the final few years.

Why would Carl take 12.5 per season? He can get more on the open market. This isn’t theory. Teams actually spend $4.5M+ on wins on the open market. Maybe he gets 12.5 the first year of an extension, but expecting camp Crawford to take that is asking too much.

by R.J. Anderson on Nov 9, 2009 11:45 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

you said his market value was 20M per season

“That’s four-years, $80M. Say Crawford just loves the team and takes a 10% discount, that’s still 4/72, or $18M/year on average.”

I’m saying based on what others have earned 20 mil is too high and more like 15-18/season is his market value and thus any 10% discount should come off of that.

12.5 mil a season is a pretty fair offer. If he really wants to say, then that can be close enough. If he doesn’t want to stay then he’ll take top dollar and if the Rays happen to offer it, then I’m sure his preference is to stay.

The highest-paid active outfielders, by average annual value:
Manny Ramirez, $22,500,000 (2009-10)
Manny Ramirez, $20,000,000 (2001-08)
Andruw Jones, $18,100,000 (2008-09)
Torii Hunter, $18,000,000 (2008-12)
Ichiro Suzuki, $18,000,000 (2008-12)
Vernon Wells, $18,00,000 (2008-13)
Carlos Beltran, $17,000,000 (2005-11)
Alfonso Soriano, $17,000,000 (2007-14)
Carlos Lee, $16,666,667 (2007-12)
Magglio Ordonez, $15,000,000 (2005-09)
J.D. Drew, $14,000,000 (2007-11)
Vladimir Guerrero, $14,000,000 (2004-08)
Johnny Damon, $13,000,000 (2006-09)
Hideki Matsui, $13,000,000 (2006-09)
Bobby Abreu, $12,800,000 (2003-07)
Kosuke Fukudome, $12,000,000 (2008-11)
Jose Guillen, $12,000,000 (2008-10)
Aaron Rowand, $12,000,000 (2008-12)
Matt Holliday, $11,500,000 (2008-09)
Nick Markakis, $11,016,667 (2009-14)
Jermaine Dye, $11,000,000 (2008-09)

Of those, the only one that matches CC’s abilities would be Ichiro (maybe Beltran/Soriano) Damon and Markakis. Ichiro was 34 when signed his deal but had many more accolades and accomplishments that factored into his deal.

Beltran was 27 and entering his prime when he was a free agent (7 yr, 119mil) and a FA when baseball was spending wildly. He was also coming off a near 40-40 season and nearly single-handedly won a title for Houston before earning his huge payday.

Soriano was 30 when signed a 8 year 136mil deal. He also was coming off a 40-40 season.

Markakis was 24 when last year he signed a 6 year, 66mil deal. He was coming off a near 70 extra base hit season with an OBP over .400

The first two examples are now considered bad contracts as the players have gotten older and had injury issues. This is why it is hard to find any teams willing to go beyond 5 years (with Markakis getting six because of his young age and was entering his prime).

Just one more example to consider is contract Juan Pierre received from Dodgers, signing a 5yr 44 mil deal before the 2007 deal. He was 29 when he signed and was coming off a near 60 steal season and averaged over 50 steals a season for last 6 seasons prior.

CC has never had an OBP over .364 (which was this season), does not hit for power, has never won a gold glove (though he has most certainly been deserving), never won a batting title. He is in his prime. He is a very good player, but when you examine what others have gotten and compared it to CC, he fits more in line as a better Juan Pierre and somewhere along the lines of Nick Markakis.

In other words, a 4 year 50 mil deal is actually quite fair. A couple big market teams could offer 4-60, or 5-70. But He’s not going to earn more than 15 per season and anyone who pays more than that is a fool and doesn’t take a look at the market.

by raysfaninminnesota on Nov 9, 2009 12:20 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I would be curious to see...

How many teams are spending $4.5 million per win in this economy. The Yanks were starving for a WS ring and spend a ton on Burnett and Tex. But they also had a boatload of cash coming off their books last offseason.

Pure speculation on my part, but this economy isnt going to be getting any better for a while. Many of these business owners likely believe that. Because of this, many teams will be scared to commit a ton of money on a longterm contract. Some of the usual suspects will continue to do so(Sox, Yanks, etc), but I’ll be curious to see how overall spending looks this offseason.

by td32 on Nov 9, 2009 12:29 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Just curious...

So I can take a look at that info, you know where I can find it?

by td32 on Nov 9, 2009 12:44 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Cameron also did another post on it sometime in April or May.

I don’t have that one bookmarked or able for easy reference, although a Google search may return it. Not sure the title though.

by R.J. Anderson on Nov 9, 2009 12:50 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

way to focus on only one point i make instead of the whole picture

Nick Markakis is under a different umbrella because it was pre-arb. But CC also doesn’t offer the same overall talent as a lot of those names on the list. Bottom line, CC does not equally compare to many names on that list. The only thing CC has going for him is he is in his prime and thus most likely to keep his performance level high throughout the length of a 4 or 5 year deal. It makes him less of a risk. But he is a leadoff, top of the order hitter. Take a look at what those players make. If CC were a 40-40 guy, then yeah, he’d get near 20 mil a season hands down. But he’s not. He’s more likely to earn what a guy like Chone Figgins will earn and not Beltran.

by raysfaninminnesota on Nov 9, 2009 12:34 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

You're not focusing on wins, you're focusing on awards and random statistic points.

Go through for each of those contracts and do a simple Marcels win projection. Tell me how far off they are compared to the expected amount.

by R.J. Anderson on Nov 9, 2009 12:36 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

And it's not one point.

You included Holliday, Markakis, and Wells as pre-FA extensions. I would say pre-arb but that’s not true of at least Holliday.

by R.J. Anderson on Nov 9, 2009 12:37 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

i just listed the top salaried outfielders

but feel free to pick at it and look for flaws rather than admit CC will not come close to 20 mil.

by raysfaninminnesota on Nov 9, 2009 12:39 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

$18M.

He’s getting more than $13M either way.

by R.J. Anderson on Nov 9, 2009 12:41 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

i'm saying the overall amount of 20 is a wrong starting point

highest to look at is 18. that puts the 10% discount at around 16. I’m saying 15 mil is a starting point. Which puts the 10% discount around 13.5mil. 12.5 is pretty close.

by raysfaninminnesota on Nov 9, 2009 12:46 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Lee also was coming off 37 HR, 117 RBI, and 19 steals

middle-of-order hitters make more in FA than leadoff-type hitters.

by raysfaninminnesota on Nov 9, 2009 12:42 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

completely

and another example of why CC will only get 4 or 5 years.

by raysfaninminnesota on Nov 9, 2009 12:47 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

yup, exactly what I said

not because FA spending is down outside of the Yankees, not because teams are shying away from contracts beyond 5 years, not because teams might be learning from many bad examples. But yes, because CC is “so alike” Lee. C’mon man…

by raysfaninminnesota on Nov 9, 2009 12:50 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

You said nothing of that sort.

Most GMs are well-aware that players with old player skills age worse than guys like Crawford. Look at Jason Bay and Matt Holliday this off-season. Holliday’s getting the longer deal for similar reasons.

by R.J. Anderson on Nov 9, 2009 12:51 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I only commented on a couple of players from the list. I listed bad contracts (soriano, beltran) as reasons why contracts are more inclined to be for less seasons. So yeah, actually I did. Teams with big pockets are sometimes willing to risk adding an extra year if that’s what it takes to get the player…although those are a select few. And it always comes back to bite them.

No one is talking about more than 5 seasons for Bay…Holliday might get 6 if a bidding war starts.

by raysfaninminnesota on Nov 9, 2009 12:54 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

ok, sure

and i don’t think anyone would again offer Soriano a 8yr, 136 mil contract ever. I’m sorry, I just don’t see how CC’s season this year matches a 40-40 year, but if that’s what the new stats say, than whatever.

by raysfaninminnesota on Nov 9, 2009 12:44 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

When in doubt, diss WAR.

Because Tom Tango knows nothing about evaluating baseball players. The Mariners just hired him to be nice.

by R.J. Anderson on Nov 9, 2009 12:46 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

i'm not dismissing it

i’m chalking it up as leaving it to those who know more than I. If that’s what it says, than that’s what it says. So also, when in doubt, try to poke a flaw into someone else’s point rather than see a flaw in your own.

by raysfaninminnesota on Nov 9, 2009 12:48 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

who is talking about knocking WAR besides you?

I just said I wasn’t knocking WAR. I said I don’t understand it, but I will believe those who honestly do know more about baseball than I.

by raysfaninminnesota on Nov 9, 2009 12:51 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

um, and i explained myself afterwards

and yeah I don’t see it…but if that’s what it says, then that’s what it says…who am I truly to argue? That’s why I’m not arguing on that point…because it would be completely ignorant talk. What part of this are you not getting?

by raysfaninminnesota on Nov 9, 2009 12:56 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

He signed that in 2007..

I understand where you are coming from, that was a different baseball market, and economy.

by td32 on Nov 9, 2009 12:43 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

4/50 is a number that I have used as a benchmark all year

I think we could afford that deal, is fair to Craw, but I know he will get more on the open market.

I'm not really a NUMBERS guy!!

by Andy Hellicksonstine on Nov 9, 2009 1:06 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I hope Carl re-signs for $12.5M.

I also hope his agent is ready to fall back on his law degree if that’s the best offer he can get.

by R.J. Anderson on Nov 9, 2009 12:54 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

of course it's not the best deal he can get

only way CC signs a deal like that is if he is willing to take less to stay. But on the open market he’s not gonna make more than 15 mil a season. There is more evidence that agrees with my assessment than yours at this point. Other than one stat which says what he’s worth, value is better defined by what teams are willing to pay. The odds seem against a team willing to give CC a Beltran/Lee/Soriano type contract.

by raysfaninminnesota on Nov 9, 2009 1:00 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

note how both were deemed 'middle-of-the-order' hitters

there really isn’t one top-order hitter in the whole bunch, unless you want to include Soriano. So CC doesn’t really compare.

by raysfaninminnesota on Nov 9, 2009 1:09 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I take that back

Ichiro is. And CC isn’t coming into his next contract with same as stature as Ichiro (MVP, multiple gold gloves, batting titles, etc)

by raysfaninminnesota on Nov 9, 2009 1:10 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

jeter got his moolah because of playing for NYY and winning WS

he wouldn’t get anywhere near that on any other team. Jeter is an exception, not the rule

by raysfaninminnesota on Nov 9, 2009 1:16 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

nope

bats 3-6 in the order (only 30 AB in #2 spot in last 3years)

by raysfaninminnesota on Nov 9, 2009 1:15 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

It's more of a sample bias

So few positional players make 20M that you aren’t going to find anything relevant regarding spot in the order.

I'm not really a NUMBERS guy!!

by Andy Hellicksonstine on Nov 9, 2009 1:16 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

i understand it's stupid

but you can’t tell me it isn’t used. Even if I agree with you on Ichiro, he doesn’t make 20 mil a season. This still means that the top mark to begin with is 18 mil a season. So even with this, your first remark on 20 mil is wrong. 10% discount would put it around 16 mil a season.

But outside of Ichiro and his multiple 200 hit seasons, there isn’t someone that matches up well.

by raysfaninminnesota on Nov 9, 2009 1:19 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

My first remark on 20M was the raw estimate without the long-term or hometown discount.

You’re taking something that wasn’t the complete estimate and applying it as such. You’re being dishonest representing my claim as such.

by R.J. Anderson on Nov 9, 2009 1:21 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

you just refuse to admit anything wrong with anything you say

rather you’d poke at what I write and try to find anything you can wrong with it. You talk about Markakis not being accurate, and ignore the point I was getting at. All I was saying was 20 was wrong, 18 would be a max start point. That’s it…but God forbid you acknowledge anyone else. IT’s much easier to criticize others apparantly before yourself.

by raysfaninminnesota on Nov 9, 2009 1:27 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

maybe we were just talking past each other

maybe I stupidly took it wrong. His raw estimate may be 20 mil…and that’s fine. but you can’t put actual contract numbers to it then. For that you have to look at market value and precedence.

To get an accurate estimate of what CC might earn on market you have to begin at 18 max.

by raysfaninminnesota on Nov 9, 2009 1:31 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

you said it!

“That’s four-years, $80M. Say Crawford just loves the team and takes a 10% discount, that’s still 4/72, or $18M/year on average.”

That raw estimate you now say is still a wrong estimate. Only one position player, Manny has earned 20 mil. Elsewhere it begins at 18.

Bottomline you should have started out at 18 mil and applied a 10% discount from there. To begin at 20 is flatout wrong.

by raysfaninminnesota on Nov 9, 2009 1:24 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

...What?

The raw estimate IS $20M. Look at the chart. That’s the raw estimate. Now take off 10% for hometown discount and it’s 4/72. That’s not wrong. You just don’t know what the hell you’re talking about. This is Desmond < Barnese part two.

by R.J. Anderson on Nov 9, 2009 1:26 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

yes, the chart says so

if we are just purely talking about raw estimate…yes.

I’m talking about actual contract numbers. Actual contract numbers will start at a max point of 18 mil, and 10% discount from there.

by raysfaninminnesota on Nov 9, 2009 1:28 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

So do it then.

4*18 = 72 mil.

Take 10% off that, 4/65.

That’s still $16M.

You have to take ANOTHER 10% off to get near your figure. Are you seeing why I’m saying that’s a wee bit unrealistic?

by R.J. Anderson on Nov 9, 2009 1:30 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Actually, I'm incorrect here.

Take another 10% off 65M and you get 59M, which is near $15M per year.

So yeah. Either keep figuring up discounts or accept that $12.5M is way too low of a estimate to reasonably expect.

by R.J. Anderson on Nov 9, 2009 1:31 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

i hear you

and i see, based off of 18 mil and 10% discount there still is a wide gap between 12.5/season. But that’s still based on 18 being the right amount for what the market will pay IN THIS ECONOMY.

I think that knocks the beginning price down, and thus the 10% comes off a lower price.

by raysfaninminnesota on Nov 9, 2009 1:33 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Okay, but I'm going off last year and adding 10% each year.

I can’t assume the market is going to stay steady three-four years down the road, so I’m being conservative and expecting a slight year-to-year increase.

You’re obviously expecting the opposite, which is fair, but will lead to drastically smaller numbers.

by R.J. Anderson on Nov 9, 2009 1:35 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I suppose the difference in estimates might be related to the increasing cost of $perW

Those past contracts had a lower than 4.5M at the time they were signed, while future contracts will have a higher cost of $perW.
Past cost of $perW

by Michkin on Nov 9, 2009 1:33 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

After watching Posey play this weekend in person....

I’m less impressed. He is small – he could have passed for the batboy on the club if he were wearing any other jersey. I don’t know how that is going to play up across a full season but he already looks tired here in Arizona.

by Jason Collette on Nov 9, 2009 1:47 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I think this is just his third season as a catcher (250 games there NCAA + MiLB)

so that could have something to do with the stamina, but it’s hard to draw conclusions about his end of season performance because of either SSS, incomplete college stats, or a jump from A+ to AAA at the end of his first complete pro season. I’d still definetely like to see Crawford paired up with one of our top pitching prospects (#3-5) and see if we can at least make a run at Posey.

the ghost of stokes, camp, lugo strikes TB-sept 2009

by CubFanRaysaddict on Nov 9, 2009 2:09 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

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