Reviewing Fred McGriff's Hall of Fame Credentials
The case for Fred McGriff's Hall of Fame candidacy has been made before, but with The Crime Dog on the ballot for the first time in 2010, it's time to re-open the case. Honestly, nobody is expecting McGriff to be a first ballot Hall of Famer, but like many others who are on the outside looking in, I fear McGriff's 19 year career will be forgotten.
Based on pure statistics alone, McGriff would seem to be a sure shot hall of famer. If he was inducted right now, here is how some of his stats would rank among Hall of Fame members.
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|
McGriff |
HOF Rank |
|
H |
2490 |
53 |
|
HR |
493 |
T-16 |
|
RBI |
1550 |
26 |
|
Runs |
1349 |
44 |
|
2B |
441 |
45 |
|
SLG |
0.509 |
T-27 |
McGriff is arguably a top 50 all time hitter among hall of famers and would fall within the top 30 of sluggers. I could go on and on about how he has more homers than Dave Winfield or 100+ more than the "feared" Jim Rice, but it's easy to cherry pick numbers, and very hard to compare players who played over multiple eras in baseball.
More likely than not, McGriff will get tagged as a "hall of very good" player and while it's true, he was a very good player, most people don't realize just how good. Quite often I hear, "Well, McGriff has hall of fame numbers, but he just doesn't scream hall of fame." Honestly, I have no answer to that because I think hall of fame numbers should ultimately get you that...entry to the Hall of Fame.
I'll admit McGriff was never a sexy player. He never won an MVP award, and was not the dominant player of his time. Nonetheless, he did finish in the top 10 six times, led the league in home runs twice, won three silver sluggers, and was named to five all star games (earning one all star game MVP) at a position that was stacked during his time of play. Let's also consider who some of his highly regarded peers were: Mark McGwire, Rafael Palmiero and Jason Giambi, all of whom are, um...suspicious.
He was never considered a superstar, but is that his fault? If McGriff was a shameless self promoter who gained notoriety by screaming "Hey, Look at me. Look at me," does that make him more Hall worthy? If he was more charismatic and did more Tom Emanski videos would that enhance his already worthy numbers? And would any of those things really make him more suited for induction?
McGriff was/is known as a great guy in baseball. His smile % would make Carlos Pena look like B.J. Upton. Even years after retiring he remains involved with the game both directly with the Rays and in the local community. However, being a good guy doesn't seem to be good enough. Maybe some people would prefer he danced a bit more after home runs or maybe beat up a water cooler every once in a while to show some fire!
What should matter is for 15 of his 19 years, McGriff played at least 144 games and averaged 31 home runs and 97 RBI per season. His career slash line is .284/.377/.509 which is pretty damn good over 10,000 plate appearances. Among first basemen in the Hall of Fame, he would easily fall within the top 10 offensively. Defensively, his fielding percentage would be the second best at his position among Hall of Famers.
I have a feeling that like our pal, Jonah Keri, and his quest for Tim Raines induction, our quest for Fred McGriff will be just as exhausting. Maybe McGriff's numbers will magically get better over time like Jim Rice's did. Or maybe the veteran's committee will recognize his accomplishments by the time everybody else has forgotten who the crime dog was. But for today, let's not forget that the man with Hall of Fame worthy numbers should also be worthy of Hall of Fame membership.
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211 comments
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Comments
The first Rays game I ever went to
I was 17 down in Tampa visiting my dad. We ended up getting tickets about 12 rows behind first base. The game was trash, we were getting pummeled, and Crime Dog gets a hot shot right down the line. He crosses over once and lamely sticks his glove out not really getting close to getting it. I started screaming at him wondering why he didn’t dive. After a couple seconds of screaming, “Dive You Bum” he looks over and gave me this sad puppy dog face that immediately shut me up. I sat back down, expecting it to be done, except McGriff gets the same exact hot shot later. This time he crosses over and goes completely horizontal, diving to his left. He snagged the ball, stepped on first and looked right back at me. I was going nuts.
To me, McGriff loved to play. Quite simply he loved being out there and never made it seem like work. Meanwhile, he put up above-average numbers for most of his career. I think what will doom him is that he didn’t get to 500, he didn’t get to 3,000, hell he didn’t even get to 2,500. He played 1B on some bad teams. It’s a shame that he got traded to SD just as Toronto went on their back-to-back WS campaign. Check out his 1994 In 113 games of a strike shortened-season he hit 34 dingers as part of 60 XBH’s. His slash: .318/.389/.623 Like many guys, the strike came during his probably best season. He was on pace for 49 homers and 86 XBH’s. This would have put him over 500 for his career and over 2500 hits playing for an Atlanta team that had the best pitching staff in the league. I was only 11 or 12 when the strike happened, but what a derailment.
Crime Dog was able to accumulate a ton of counting stats over a ton of games. I don’t think guys should be punished for longevity, but you at least have to blow the doors off in a few seasons, whereas, Fred was more of a consistently above-average hitter. Peep this courtesy of Beyond the Boxscore

Even among this cast of questionable names, McGriff doesn’t exactly blaze his own path. I like the man, the myth, the player, but I don’t see how he ever gets in.
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 1, 2009 9:27 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
Excellent point about 1994. If he gets an entire season, I think he makes the HOF without question.
That said, while he missed some milestones, he is arguably a top 10 player at his position among hall of famers.
www.draysbay.com
by Tommy Rancel on Dec 1, 2009 9:34 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
I mostly agree with your post
2 things I’ll add:
a) I don’t think its fair to give him extra merit based on him never being discussed as a “cheater” vs/ other players who have never been proven to “cheat”
b) On the other hand, he has a rate stat supporting him in SLG, beyond the simple counting stats. This in my opinion, is the strongest backbone of support for his counting stats.
McGriff is sort of like the Curtis Martin of baseball.
Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla
Check out the workbook I created below
You can see that his games played does factor in quite a bit. He also struck out more than any other guy on the list, whatever that is worth.
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 1, 2009 10:24 AM EST up reply actions
I think you need to compare him across 1B
WAR is going to put such a positional penalty on 1B when compared to good hitting middle infielders.
Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla
Umm I did, read the header to which you are replying.
Just look at the workbook. That graph was something that I came across that I found interesting.
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 1, 2009 10:43 AM EST up reply actions
This is a guy that did it the right way and he should get into the Hall. He is one of the greatest hitters of all time and he should be rewarded for that.
Can we please get the textbook definition of "the right way"? I'm just dying to know if you think that McGriff should enter the hall of fame before Mark Maguire based on this magical 'right way' stuff.
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
Definitely before Mark Maguire, but not before Mark McGwire.
www.draysbay.com
by Tommy Rancel on Dec 1, 2009 10:16 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
I screwed that up the last time I was talking about McGuire too.
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
Are you in any way related to LeeCaz?
Same blog memberships, both from kentucky. Hm…..
Signature space available for rent - Got to pay the bills somehow
Your favorite Ray of all time, Wade Boggs is in
www.draysbay.com
by Tommy Rancel on Dec 1, 2009 10:01 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
I thought it was funny that you assume Freddy would go in as a Ray
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 1, 2009 10:25 AM EST up reply actions
He won't, Braves or Jays I'm guessing.
But he’ll have Rays on his plaque.
by R.J. Anderson on Dec 1, 2009 10:26 AM EST up reply actions
What I find super exciting is that according to the graph above
Longoria already has 2 seasons of a higher WAR than McGriff and he’s close to the other candidates. Zobrist had a better season in 09 than any of those scrubs ever managed.
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 1, 2009 10:29 AM EST up reply actions
Roy Hobbs son
Roy Hobbs. As long as Juliana doesn’t shoot him I give Zobie a >100% chance of making the HoF.
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 1, 2009 10:36 AM EST up reply actions
Tim Raines played in Canada too.
McGriff was a big force for the Jays for 3 years. He didn’t get enough RBI, and he was playing in Canada so he didn’t get the initial exposure that he probably needed to build the Fred McGriff hype machine down here.
This is like starting your career in a small US market, but probably worse. And it allows opponents to make the “hall of fame not stats” argument even though fame and baseball playing ability aren’t always a perfect match.
It's the Hall of Fame not the Hall of Stats.
There are guys that are in there that shouldn’t be. There are guys that aren’t that should. It’s still the Mecca of the baseball universe even if mistakes have and will be made. Belittling it because it doesn’t allign with your worldview is a bit closeminded.
You're right. And no player was more famous than Mark McGwire during the 90's, so why wasn't he a first ballot inductee?
by R.J. Anderson on Dec 1, 2009 10:18 AM EST up reply actions
Because of BS politics.
Like I said “mistakes have been made. Mistakes will be made.”
The juicers will get in because like anything else it’s the fabric of the game. The writers will realize that.
Sure, when it's too late. Like, Buck O'Neil.
I don’t look at the Hall of Fame as anything more than a museum. I’m sorry if that offends you.
by R.J. Anderson on Dec 1, 2009 10:21 AM EST up reply actions
Okay, and using it as a measure of playing talent/performance is an absolute joke.
by R.J. Anderson on Dec 1, 2009 10:25 AM EST up reply actions
Meh
Not really. No matter where you set the bar or how there will be issues. The game is bigger than the stats the players put up. The players are bigger. It’s a museum dedicated to the lore of the game. Some players are need to be part of it. Some don’t. Some are on the cusp. That’s what makes it fun.
I also watched the NBA Finals instead of Red Sox/O's.
I’m a bad person.
by R.J. Anderson on Dec 1, 2009 10:36 AM EST up reply actions
If its not the hall of stats, then why would there be a huge difference in opinion among people who actually vote if he had 10 more home runs?
www.draysbay.com
by Tommy Rancel on Dec 1, 2009 10:22 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
I don't think there would be.
Honestly, the traditional “milestones” will come crashing down in the Expansion Era.
Bery Blyleven's 287 wins and Rock Raines' 2,600 hits
Hope you’re right.
www.draysbay.com
by Tommy Rancel on Dec 1, 2009 10:27 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
The HOF voters are a curious bunch. I think they are more interested in
keeping stars out then voting them in, As with all these awards it becomes a popularity contest, For example Ripken being a unanimous first ballot selection was laughable
Why is that laughable?
He’s one of the all-time greats, he’s a steward of the game. and he “played the game the right way.” He also revolutionized the most important position in baseball.
Seriously. Try and tell me that Cal deserved that more than Ruth or Williams.
Cobb has character flaws, which matter only when they want them to.
by R.J. Anderson on Dec 1, 2009 10:24 AM EST up reply actions
Those votes were how many years ago?
We should be glad they aren’t not voting guys in just out of spite.
Rickey Henderson didn't get 100% votes.
That was last year. Explain that one too.
by R.J. Anderson on Dec 1, 2009 10:26 AM EST up reply actions
What's there to explain?
Different voters value different things differently. Should he be in? Absolutely. He’s the greatest leadoff hitter evr (well maybe Cobb), but people are different. We aren’t robots. The Hall is about emotion. It should be. Otherwise we could just have an Excel SS called the Hall of Fame.
Explain why that makes Cal's vote not entirely ridiculous.
Cal had character flaws. Rickey did too, albeit in a more hilarious fashion.
by R.J. Anderson on Dec 1, 2009 10:30 AM EST up reply actions
Being selfish?
Putting himself over the team?
by R.J. Anderson on Dec 1, 2009 10:31 AM EST up reply actions
That's stupid.
Was he as good as possible because he played everyday? Probably not. Did it hurt his team? Probably not.
So in the twilight of his career he was below average?
Lots of teams start players everyday are below average. No one is calling those players selfish.
I'm no fan of Ripken, but did they have a suitable replacement that could step in?
Yes he’s an attention whore and I hated him for years for breaking Lou’s record, but come off it man. He did that. There are guys in for less.
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 1, 2009 10:38 AM EST up reply actions
I'm not arguing he should be in.
I’m arguing Glass’ point that it’s not laughable for him to be the first with 100%. It absolutely is.
by R.J. Anderson on Dec 1, 2009 10:39 AM EST up reply actions
I think you are getting too caught up in the particulars.
Should he be first ballot? Yes. That’s all each voter can vote on.
Should Babe Ruth be on everyone's first ballot? Um, yes.
But this wasn’t your original argument.
by R.J. Anderson on Dec 1, 2009 10:42 AM EST up reply actions
As I read it: "It's not a joke that Ripken was the first 100% selection."
To which I disagree entirely.
by R.J. Anderson on Dec 1, 2009 10:44 AM EST up reply actions
I'm not arguing he shouldn't have been 100%, nor that he's not a HOF.
I’m arguing that many others have deserved 100% and failed to achieve it. I find that wrong.
by R.J. Anderson on Dec 1, 2009 10:45 AM EST up reply actions
It's fine. I just think he is the exact model of what the HoF is about.
He’s the guy you point to when you have a son as a role-model. For all of Rickey’s talents Rickey ain’t that guy.
In your opinion.
Cal is more deserving of 100% than Ted Williams?
by R.J. Anderson on Dec 1, 2009 10:48 AM EST up reply actions
Of course, but why does it matter?
That’s the juxt. You are trying to turn back the clock. Why? Why do you care who was elected at what percent?
I could ask you the same thing.
Considering you’re the one who ripped SF’s comment to start this thread.
by R.J. Anderson on Dec 1, 2009 10:52 AM EST up reply actions
Why do you care if he thinks it's laughable?
He has a different definition of the Hall than you. Get over it.
by R.J. Anderson on Dec 1, 2009 10:56 AM EST up reply actions
No I want both.
I want examples. I want stewards of the game. I want to take my unborn children to the Hall so they can learn about it. Do I care if jerks are there? No. I just think the guys that set an example AND were great should be more highly regarded.
I’m also not arguing that Ruth, Joe D, etc. shouldn’t be unanimous, but I’m saying the voting has evolved. To not recognize that is ignorant.
His original statement never showed that he didn't recognize evolution in thought.
by R.J. Anderson on Dec 1, 2009 11:05 AM EST up reply actions
Do you think an unborn child would remember his trip to the Hall?
by sternfan1 on Dec 1, 2009 11:08 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Seriously, i take all these awards with a grain of salt
I guess they’re good off season discussion topics but little else. To the player they are paramount, but to me the average fan i care less who makes it and who doesn’t
"Look little Jimmy, you don't have to be great to make it here, just be nice to the men with notepads and smile a lot."
by R.J. Anderson on Dec 1, 2009 11:11 AM EST up reply actions
If you play SS then you'll probably be ok
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 1, 2009 11:13 AM EST up reply actions
To wit
Rk Player OPS+
1 Honus Wagner 152
2 Arky Vaughan 136
3 Lou Boudreau 120
4 Joe Cronin 119
5 Robin Yount 115
6 Cal Ripken 112
7 Luke Appling 112
8 George Davis 112
9 Alan Trammell 110
10 Joe Sewell 108
11 Bobby Wallace 104
12 Travis Jackson 102
13 Jay Bell 101
14 Pee Wee Reese 99
15 Dave Bancroft 98
16 Joe Tinker 95
17 Phil Rizzuto 93
18 Ozzie Smith 87
19 Luis Aparicio 82
20 Rabbit Maranville 82
21 Leo Durocher 66
Spanning Multiple Seasons or entire Careers, From 1901 to 2009, Hall Of Fame Members or Current Candidates, Played 50% of games at SS, sorted by greatest Adjusted OPS+
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 1, 2009 11:14 AM EST up reply actions
Take a 360 view
Media was just starting to get out of control at that time, carrying a louder voice than ever. The game had been completely disgraced by the strike and needed a feel good story to elevate past that. It’s writers weaving a tale that do the voting not accountants. Don’t be shocked when DJ is the next unamimous pick.
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 1, 2009 10:46 AM EST up reply actions
No doubt he will be.
He’s the same type of player/persona. You need both to entrench yourself to all camps.
He didn't get 100%
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
98.5%
And if guys like Ruth had become eligible with the same criteria, he would have had a higher percentage; just because he was elected in the early years, he was competing against 20 other worthy candidates for 5 spots.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
Ruth was a member of the inaugral class so I'm not sure what your point is.
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 1, 2009 10:27 AM EST up reply actions
Yes, what does that have to do with the Babe?
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 1, 2009 10:32 AM EST up reply actions
Who does?
It’s a bunch of writers that like to promote their own causes and look at things differently. Be a realist.
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 1, 2009 10:38 AM EST up reply actions
So you agree that he should've received 100%?
Because this “it was a different era” talk is pretty much a cop-out. Neither of us were around then. I don’t go back and read columns written back then to see how they evaluated players, but the guy hit .400, home runs, and gave up prime years to go fight in a war. If that doesn’t give you 100% in that day and age, then the average player was pretty special.
by R.J. Anderson on Dec 1, 2009 10:47 AM EST up reply actions
Of course he deserved it. More than anyone ever probably.
He pissed a lot of people off and nevcer won a ring, though. Is it right that people didn’t vote for him because of it? I don’t think so, but to diminish Cal’s legacy because of voters who are likely dead is a bit silly, IMO.
He didn't even win MVP the year that he hit .406
Obviously, the media had something against him. Who does the voting?
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 1, 2009 10:50 AM EST up reply actions
It's your surprise at this that gets me
He was a media darling that played during a time when there were 3 channels and one sports page. The game was different back then. Don’t take this the wrong way because I only have a few years on you, but it is a completely different game today.
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 1, 2009 10:49 AM EST up reply actions
I suppose I have more appreciation for Williams than most.
by R.J. Anderson on Dec 1, 2009 10:51 AM EST up reply actions
Because a few voters didn't think he was worthy of a Hall induction on his first ballot.
by R.J. Anderson on Dec 1, 2009 10:53 AM EST up reply actions
Maybe they have a different opinion on the Hall.
Slash had because I bet those geazers are all dead.
The clause for voters:
"Voting shall be based upon the player’s record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character and contribution to the team(s) on which the player played."
by R.J. Anderson on Dec 1, 2009 10:55 AM EST up reply actions
And Cal Ripken Jr. is a complete and utter saint.
by R.J. Anderson on Dec 1, 2009 11:05 AM EST up reply actions
I didn't know the fans and media were included in sportsmanship.
by R.J. Anderson on Dec 1, 2009 11:10 AM EST up reply actions
Media is the one doing the voting
If you don’t think they can’t act like a bunch of petulant children then you are being naive.
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 1, 2009 11:11 AM EST up reply actions
I agree with you.
That’s part of the reason I can’t take the current Hall of Fame as a talent barometer seriously.
by R.J. Anderson on Dec 1, 2009 11:12 AM EST up reply actions
Does anyone?
Jim Fucking Rice sealed the deal on the last guy in a bomb shelter in Nebraska that took it seriously.
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 1, 2009 11:15 AM EST up reply actions
That doesn't really prove your point.
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 1, 2009 11:16 AM EST up reply actions
There's an inverse relationship between our expecations of posts and actual performances.
by R.J. Anderson on Dec 1, 2009 11:24 AM EST up reply actions
Basically for every hour you put in
expect 15 less comments
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 1, 2009 11:29 AM EST up reply actions
You appreciate his gamelogs and statistics which are unparalleled
but the voting is not done based on these things. I think SF got it right when he called them a curious bunch. Ruth would have been unanimous if he wasn’t a part of the inaugural class.
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 1, 2009 11:00 AM EST up reply actions
I didn't watch 90% of Barry Bonds' career games.
Doesn’t mean I don’t realize he’s one of the best ever.
by R.J. Anderson on Dec 1, 2009 11:06 AM EST up reply actions
You were alive during his reign and every time he farted you heard about it
The Hall of Fame is for these mythical beings that guys could write about.
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 1, 2009 11:09 AM EST up reply actions
Barry Bonds is mythical.
Because the Holy Writers are going to make him pay for being a dick to them all those years.
by R.J. Anderson on Dec 1, 2009 11:11 AM EST up reply actions
The same could be said about Teddy Ballgame
What they need to do is put that cryo-head of his on Cal Ripken III’s body.
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 1, 2009 11:12 AM EST up reply actions
I find it amusing that there is this entire line of argument
and nobody bothered to check whether Ripken actually got 100%.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
DiMaggio had a great year, but if he didn't play in NY and Williams didn't have a
Steve Carlton-esque rapport with the media he is a shoo in.

I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 1, 2009 11:02 AM EST up reply actions
Don't forget Joe D is one of the greatest ever CFs and by all accounts Teddy Ballgame was a passable LF.
I never saw him play. I never saw Willy Mays play, but I can guarantee
you that he was a better defender and for my money, a bigger snub on this whole unanimous crock of shit.

I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 1, 2009 11:06 AM EST up reply actions
I want to know why Albert Pujols is not defending his country against the hordes
coming across the border. Obviously, he hates America.
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 1, 2009 11:10 AM EST up reply actions
Um, Ripken was not a unanimous choice.
He was on 98.5 percent of the ballots, but he was not unanimous.
He doesn't deserve it.
A lot of guys that are in don’t either, but that doesn’t mean he should be in.
Alright guys
I did a query of the B-Ref database with this criteria:
“Spanning Multiple Seasons or entire Careers, From 1901 to 2009, Hall Of Fame Members or Current Candidates, Played 50% of games at 1B, sorted by greatest Adjusted OPS+”
Here is the list of guys (note that McGriff was not on this list I had to add him in, my guess is that they haven’t updated his status):
Rk Player OPS+
1 Lou Gehrig 179
2 Jimmie Foxx 163
3 Mark McGwire 162
4 Johnny Mize 158
5 Hank Greenberg 158
6 Willie McCovey 147
7 Frank Chance 139
8 Bill Terry 136
9 Fred McGriff 134
10 Orlando Cepeda 133
11 Mo Vaughn 132
12 Eddie Murray 129
13 Don Mattingly 127
14 Jim Bottomley 125
15 George Sisler 124
16 Jake Beckley 124
17 Tony Perez 122
18 Mark Grace 119
19 George Kelly 109
20 Hughie Jennings 103
21 Walter Alston -100
22 Dan Brouthers -100
I’ve also created a google workbook so that you can see all of their traditional stats side-by-side HERE
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 1, 2009 10:21 AM EST reply actions
Pretty impressive, but I have calculated wOBA on that workbook and you can see that Crime Dog is a legit step down from the legends
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 1, 2009 10:22 AM EST up reply actions
How many HOF voters are looking at wOBA?
www.draysbay.com
by Tommy Rancel on Dec 1, 2009 10:24 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
They don't have to.
If they look at OPS that’s a great step forward.
by R.J. Anderson on Dec 1, 2009 10:27 AM EST up reply actions
Yes. If they look at OPS+ it's even better.
www.draysbay.com
by Tommy Rancel on Dec 1, 2009 10:29 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
I didn't put this together so that I could fax off to the BBWAA
You don’t find it interesting?
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 1, 2009 10:28 AM EST up reply actions
Personally yes, but it doesn't mean anything in terms
What the voters will look at and that’s the point of this post. Ultimately traditional stats will be the measurement that will be used for McGriff and that’s what we should look at right or wrong.
It’s like using WAR for the mvp vote. Makes sense to those who use it, but useless in the minds of most who actually vote.
www.draysbay.com
by Tommy Rancel on Dec 1, 2009 10:33 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
That's nice and all, but I thought the people here discussing this topic would want to see it.
I have no illusions that anybody voting on anything is going to come to Draysbay. I’m not here to debate what someone will or won’t do, I’m laying the case rationally and putting it on the table so that others can see in raw numbers how he compares to current hall of famers/candidates. All of those traditional stats are in the workbook that I am sharing with you, I just didn’t want to put them in the thread since they would format abysmally and tell you nothing. I included the one that I sorted by and that is more of an all-encompassing view.
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 1, 2009 10:42 AM EST up reply actions
I don't believe in manipulating what the query brought me, I made a calculation for singles and wOBA but didn't want to omit the other stuff
Obviously the last 3 are suspect, and probably Beckley too, but I didn’t want to omit them since they came up. You see the search parameters above, it’s every guy that played half his games at 1B that is either currently in the Hall or a candidate.
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 1, 2009 10:34 AM EST up reply actions
I don't think that the career OPS+ numbers tell the the whole story.
Look at Mo Vaughn. He was in no way a better player than Eddie Murray. Through age 32, Murray had an OPS of 141. Mo Vaughn had an OPS of 135 at that age. Vaughn, though, was only good enough to have a job for one and a half more seasons after that, while Murray was good enough to play for another ten years. Why should Vaughn’s failure help push him over Murray? It doesn’t make any sense. How can Murray’s inability to hit in 1997 reduce the value of what he did in 1983?
I'm just reporting the facts
As mentioned above (somewhere, trust me) because of SBN formatting I only wanted to show one column, it’s not an end-all, be-all list. If it came across that way it is not my intention. Check out the google doc that I linked to so that you can see all these guys numbers side-by-side. That was my intention, give you the ammunition to make your own decisions.
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 1, 2009 3:39 PM EST up reply actions
This era is a difficult one to quantify....
McGuire, Sosa, and Bonds juiced. I’m positive two of them did(not from media reports, but from people that played alongside them) and I’m fairly certain Sosa did as well. Hell, I’ve even heard Griffey juiced. In any other era, McGriff would have been appreciated far more…. but with all the “power” hitters that put up unreal numbers in the past few decades, it will be difficult for the Crime Dog to compete.
Dumb question
but has anyone ever come out and given a vague criteria for what an HOFer is? These awards that are completely subjective (in any sport) make this less about the players and more about those who are voting.
Signature space available for rent - Got to pay the bills somehow
The clause for voters:
“Voting shall be based upon the player’s record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character and contribution to the team(s) on which the player played.”
Very Good hitters like Fred McGriff, Roger Maris, and Jim Rice will never make the hall of fame...
oh, wait… oops. Two out of three ain’t bad.
Blah!
by thebaddancingraysfan on Dec 1, 2009 10:49 AM EST reply actions
It's so full of baseball.
www.draysbay.com
by Tommy Rancel on Dec 1, 2009 10:54 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Who are all of these players?
Alomar, Martinez, Larkin, McGriff, and Ventura? Aren’t they the cooks at Applebees?
Blah!
by thebaddancingraysfan on Dec 1, 2009 11:00 AM EST up reply actions
No, when RJ was confessing his love for Adam Lambert's... music
THAT was the gayest thread ever.
Blah!
by thebaddancingraysfan on Dec 1, 2009 10:55 AM EST up reply actions
I heard that he was actually drinking water, but Tebow touched it/converted it to wine without telling him.
by rglass44 on Dec 1, 2009 11:25 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
His powers never cease to amaze
Dunlap must have been completely wasted he was found asleep in his car at a light.
the ghost of stokes, camp, lugo strikes TB-sept 2009
by CubFanRaysaddict on Dec 1, 2009 11:37 AM EST up reply actions
Angel Villalona is set to have a prison deathmatch with Ugueth Urbina sans machete and gascan
I’ve got 4 large on Angel.
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 1, 2009 11:15 AM EST up reply actions
Source?
I saw something like this on OTM and they pretty much laughed it off.
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 1, 2009 11:47 AM EST up reply actions
Who is a better second baseman, for the Red Sox, then Pedroia?
Who would they be making room for? Figgans?
Blah!
by thebaddancingraysfan on Dec 1, 2009 12:01 PM EST up reply actions
Oh god I hope they give O-Dawg a 3/30 type contract
PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE In all seriousness, Polanco would be a pretty nasty addition to that lineup. I could see him hitting 40 doubles IN JUST HIS HOME GAMES.
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 1, 2009 12:14 PM EST up reply actions
Using Dan S's MLE calculator and taking a 2/3/5 look at his stats over the last 3 years in Detroit you get
DET Slash 0.303/0.348/0.415/0.763
BOS Slash 0.308/0.356/0.423/0.779
To go with pretty solid defense. Using the 2OPS/3 cheat his wOBA would have been close to 0.370 in Detroit and close to 0.378 in Boston. Keep in mind that the average 2B in the AL has a 0.341 wOBA. The difference doesn’t sound small, but if you assume 600 PA he would go from 15.1 wRAA to 19.2. Assuming he can repeat the roughly 8.2 UZR that he has put up over the last 3 years (again using 2/3/5) he would go from being 2.3 wins better than the average AL 2B to 2.7 wins better. Would this offset an almost certain drop in Pedroia’s UZR? Who knows, but look at it like this, Pedroia was about 2.8 wins better than the average AL 2B last year, while their SS was about a win in the wrong at -1.0. Even if Pedroia gets crushed by UZR his bat would be even more valuable compared to the league average SS and they would basically have another Pedroia at 2B. Frankly, this scares me a little more than Holliday taking over for Bay.
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 1, 2009 12:38 PM EST up reply actions
Anyone think that McGriff may have hurt his shot at the hall playing for the upstart Devil Rays
instead of staying with a team like Atlanta? He has the numbers not the publicity? I mean, he is no Jimmy Giles, but who is counting?
Blah!
by thebaddancingraysfan on Dec 1, 2009 11:50 AM EST reply actions
Try not to laugh too hard...
but if you compare The crime dog with the Michelin man (Barry Bonds) from 1988 thru 2001he gives steroid head a run for his money.
However, him wearing that blue truckers hat will definitely keep him out of the hall.

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