On Signing Another Reliever
Dave Cameron wrote about this a few days ago, and to be honest I'm not sure if the rate has changed, and if so by how much, but regardless, the point stands. Of any recent free agency period for the Rays to splurge a little and upgrade where needed, this is the market to go for it in. Thus far, teams are paying about $3M per win, which is an incredible discount on what we've seen in previous years. Now, that is going to change, as Dave notes, this could just be small sample size and a shift in the roster types signing early - mostly older guys who generally wouldn't cash in until spring was in the air - plus none of the big-timers have signed yet.
In combination with what was discussed here, it shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone if the Rays go out and sign another reliever. Not a Type-A arm, mind you, but another middle reliever type. This is the ultimate buyers market right now, and the Rays have one bullpen slot they can conceivably shift towards a new addition. Consider these quotes from Joe Maddon in yesterday's Boston Herald as well:
"I think when you're running a bullpen by committee, what happens - actually a matchup bullpen more than by committee, matchup bullpens you have to be really careful not getting people tired just by getting them up and not utilizing them," Maddon said. "You're getting guys up and you see a situation arising, all of a sudden the situation goes away, and he's already warmed up for that particular juncture and then you may have to get him up two innings later for the same thing. That's difficult. So when you're running matchups as much as we did, my concern would be that you get people tired even though they don't actually pitch in games."
[...]
"They have a bunch of good left-handed hitters and switch hitters," Maddon said. "It's hard to match up with them. You have to have righties that pitch well against lefties as an example, like Lance Cormier was very prominent against them last year, or a lefty that pitches well against righties as well as lefties, J.P. Howell.
The Rays had two relievers reliable against both hands last season when using their three-year platoon splits; Howell and Balfour. Boston, on the other hand, had in upwards of five at the end of the season. The Rays have since added Soriano, giving them three end-game options against either hand, and the Sox have lost Billy Wagner and Takashi Saito.
Of course, Mitch Talbot is out of options, but so were Jason Hammel and Jeff Niemann, yet Lance Cormier was still signed to take the role of long-man. It's evident the Rays are going hard after 2010, which means don't be shocked if they land another modestly paid pen arm is added between now and spring.
This is barely related, but did anyone else find the comments about payroll potentially decreasing after 2010 a bit ... funny? I know what Silverman was saying, and he probably has a good point, but the club has $37 or so million coming off the books - including the four highest paid players - given this team's farm system, there is absolutely, positively no way they would spend nearly $40M in one off-season. Of course the payroll would decline after this year. He didn't let the cat out of the bag here. And to think, I already had my Derek Jeter/Joe Mauer lineup magnets made.
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I'd like to see the Rays pick up
Jeremy Accardo, good fastball and he can close. He should also be signable at a good price.
by Blue or CONKZILLA on Dec 14, 2009 6:20 AM EST reply actions
2011 payroll
I think Crawford is staying. Soriano maybe. Pena and Burrell will be gone, and a good bit of that money will go to CC, Zobrist and Garza. I know a lot of people think CC will leave or the Rays will unload him, but it’s not good business sense to unload a future Hall-of- Famer in his prime.
by Blue or CONKZILLA on Dec 14, 2009 6:25 AM EST reply actions
On what basis
do you consider Crawford a future Hall of Famer?
Maybe the better question is “do you project him as a HOF player based on his performance (and if so, why) or do you think he will appear that way to the voters even though you don’t think he really is?”
The criteria that HOF voters tend to use
IF CC plays another heathy 10 sesons and averages 171 hits a season, he’ll surpass 3000
If he averages 180 (about what he is at in his 6 healthy seasons) over another 8 years, he’ll get to 2800.
He’ll probably get to 600 SB’s fairly easily, and has a good chance of 700+
Good chance he finishes in the top 75 all-time triples hitters.
A Gold Glove, MVP or World Series ring would help him.
But when the people with the votes get together every year, they don’t use Sabermetrics in making their choices, they go by the common stats that the player has put up.
Crawford should have better career numbers than Tim Raines, and there is a decent chance Raines will eventually be voted in.
That said, I don’t think Crawford will be voted on the first ballot, but will get in.
Granted he could have the kind of drop that Dale Murphy or Andruw Jones had, which would keep him out.
by Blue or CONKZILLA on Dec 14, 2009 10:38 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
It's pretty likely that the only thing that could keep him from reaching those goals is injury.
And moving on to a team with grass fields instead of turf might do wonders for him.
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
So you are not saying
that you think he should be in the HOF (given your projections) but that you think he will be.
If he stays on the pace that he's on over the next 10 years,
I think he should be and will be if the career numbers are there. His HR total won’t be high, but if Crawford continues to have the kind of career he’s having, he’ll be considered a better player than alot of players that made it ahead of him.
Also, there are going to be a number of players who have trouble getting in because of the steroid issue.
by Blue or CONKZILLA on Dec 14, 2009 7:27 PM EST up reply actions
Red Sox are a curious bunch this year
I’m not sure i buy the theory they’re re-tooling
Let's hope they don't land Beltre or Holliday.
by R.J. Anderson on Dec 14, 2009 10:51 AM EST up reply actions
One wouldn't be so bad, but both would be a tough pill to swallow
They have to make a move, they don’t want Puke at 3rd, who would man LF, who’s the fifth starter or 4th once Wake gets hurt? We have a couple of questions left to fill, they have quite a few big questions left to answer.
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 14, 2009 10:56 AM EST up reply actions
It's nearly a foregone conclusion that Beltre will be either a Mariner or Red Sox player by next season.
As for the other questions, I believe they’ll sign at least one starter, probably a Bedard/Sheets type, and they have that Clay Buchholz guy just sitting around. Not to mention Tazawa and the ability to acquire another starter if need be.
by R.J. Anderson on Dec 14, 2009 10:58 AM EST up reply actions
I do disagree with their focus on Bay instead of Holliday too.
Even if you believe UZR and the other defensive metrics don’t account properly for Fenway, Bay still has Richie Sexson 2.0 written all over him.
by R.J. Anderson on Dec 14, 2009 11:02 AM EST up reply actions
It could be a lot of fun to watch this team implode
You were right about the starter, I had forgotten that Matsuzaka still bring his rabbit’s foot to the mound, but out of Beckett, Lester, Dice-K, Buchholz, Wakefield, FA signing, is anyone terrified of this staff? Lester is very, very good, and Beckett can be most of the time, but after that I’m not very scared by any of those guys. Throw Bedard in there and I might be a little just because of our suck against lefties (yayyy Shoppach), but who knows what he’s got in the tank.
Honestly, I think Holliday is a foregone conclusion, but instead of Beltre they should shift their focus to a guy like Crede that’s a little more under the radar, but an excellent gloveman for much cheaper. I agree on Bay, when that guy is locked in you don’t even want to see him pitched to, but he’s a liability in Left and the other 75% of his PA (when he’s not scorching) he’s either league average or worse.
No matter what the Red Sox end up doing, you have to commend the RFO for seeing an opportunity to make a run at this division and acquiring pieces to do that, WITHOUT sacrificing any real talent.
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by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 14, 2009 11:11 AM EST up reply actions
Crede is pretty risky.
Beltre’s had his fair share of injury issues too, but he’s also got deflated offensive numbers thanks to Safeco. I don’t know, he’s one of my favorite non-Rays, and the thought of him banging the Monster 35-45 times wouldn’t shock me.
by R.J. Anderson on Dec 14, 2009 11:19 AM EST up reply actions
I wish we had a roster spot to give him.
by R.J. Anderson on Dec 14, 2009 11:20 AM EST up reply actions
They're both better with the glove than the stick right now, Crede has back problems which is a problem,
but at least he has two testicles.
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by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 14, 2009 11:30 AM EST up reply actions
Adrian only needs one to get the job done.
by R.J. Anderson on Dec 14, 2009 11:35 AM EST up reply actions
OT: I was just looking at this list
HERE
Do you think any of the elite guys (Fielder, Votto, etc…) would ever be realistic pursuits for us to play first or are we always going to go after the Jack Custs of the world?
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 14, 2009 11:39 AM EST up reply actions
And here's your answer:
ed_price: Source: Lackey to take physical with #RedSox. Bos apparently moving on to 2nd choice after Bay. Working to confirm.
by R.J. Anderson on Dec 14, 2009 11:51 AM EST up reply actions
I'd argue that's still a relatively competent starting staff.
Beckett, Lester, and Buchholz are all capable starters, and Wakefield for some damn reason still gets the job done. As is, they have no shot in the division and are probably a long shot for the wild-card, but the Yankees put up a hell of a fight 2 years ago running significantly worse to the mound then this.
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
Dice-K is fine once you ignore his salary and hype.
by R.J. Anderson on Dec 14, 2009 11:59 AM EST up reply actions
Players who started for the 87-win 2008 New York Yankees, ordered from most-to-least starts
Mike Mussina
Andy Pettitte
D. Rasner
C. Wang
Sidney Ponson
J. Chamberlain
Ian Kennedy
Phil Hughes
Carl Pavano
A. Aceves
Dan Giese
Brian Bruney
Kei Igawa
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
I know, I just want to keep beating this into the ground.
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
Kiko Calero still fits. 1 yr/1.5. He can get batters out on both sides.
Although his low HR/FB in 2009 is a bit concerning. However, even if he regresses to career levels it shouldn’t be anything crazy. He had a career year in ’09 and will probably go back to being a decent RP, which is fine.
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by Tommy Rancel on Dec 14, 2009 8:11 AM EST via mobile reply actions
Plenty of interesting names available
I like Capps, Calero, and Accardo – maybe even someone like DJ Carrasco. I think it’ll all depend on which of them would sign for the least amount of money.
by PhillyRays on Dec 14, 2009 8:14 AM EST via mobile reply actions
I'm not big on DJ--but i'd take a long look at the others you mentiom
I just feel what we’d get from DJ we can fill from within either Sonny or Talbot
Agreed
In the end, I think what’s going to happen is that either Sonny or Talbot become the long man and Cormier is moved into a more important role than he had last year. Can’t see AF spending more money when he has in house options at his disposal.
by PhillyRays on Dec 14, 2009 9:12 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
The day the Rays signed Soriano
was the day the Rays decided the 2011 payroll was going to be lower and very much lower than the 2010. Crawford is gone after this season with Jennings at $400,000 a year more than able to take over in LF. Pena, Burrell, Balfour and Soriano all leave as well maybe Wheeler. Rays have salary increases to Longoria, Shields and Price. Garza, Bartlett, Howell, Upton and either Shoppach or Navarro will get large increases in salary via arbitration if all are still Rays in 2011. Stu said before money doesn’t come from thin air so expect a huge drop in the payroll in 2011 which could be as much as 20 million from 2010’s payroll.
Flags fly forever
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 14, 2009 9:15 AM EST up reply actions
I don't know about you, but it's still 2009
and i’m going to gear my attention toward ST and the 2010 season
2011 will be it’s own entity
PTBNL for Shoppach
I doubt Shoppach came cheaply as catching seems to be at a premium these days. It must have taken a decent player for the Rays FO to get Shoppach off the market so far in advance of the non-tender date. I doubt Talbot would have been enough especially without options. Possibly Sonnanstine in that he does have good experience, he has options left, and his hometown is about an hour or so away from Cleveland. But still I think that probably wasn’t enough. Possibly Aybar but I hope not as we need something of a decent bat coming off the bench. Also, if it was him I think we would have seen some movement to sign someone like a Hinske. Only two positives I see if its Aybar are (i) we would save a bit of $ and (ii) it would possibly open up a 25 man spot for Brignac (absent a Hinske-like signing). This PPTBNL decision is quite interesting.
Not positibe but i don't believe Sonny qualifies under the PTBNL guidelines
I’ll stick with Talbot or Aneury
That's who I have
Shopp was going to be non-tendered with all the cheaper/better(?) options that they have. Everyone knew it, I think it’s Talbot, but could just as likely see it as Aneury.
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 14, 2009 10:06 AM EST up reply actions
Jesse Chavez would have fit the bill nicely.
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by FreeZorilla on Dec 14, 2009 10:09 AM EST up reply actions
He's too busy getting us super-stars
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 14, 2009 10:15 AM EST up reply actions
OT: Surprised to see that Dice-K and Lester have never made AS games
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Nor Wang
Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla
by FreeZorilla on Dec 14, 2009 10:16 AM EST up reply actions
Nor Burnett
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by FreeZorilla on Dec 14, 2009 10:17 AM EST up reply actions
Why's that? Fans can't stuff the ballot box with pitcher names; managers know better.
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
You bring your positive rays of sunshine everywhere..LOL
Let’s enjoy 2010 before we get too down on 2011. Too soon to tell what $ might look like then due to too many factors.
From the "Well obviously" department.
Why not trade Capps? “All trade value disappeared when there was a media report of a non-tender.”
Loose lips sink ships.
Also from that site:
From a previous post, I don’t have any stats as to how fast Capps threw last year. I don’t care what that website says but there is no way in H*** that Capps averaged 93.6 mpn, the highest in his career. I can only look at the radar gun that they put up on tv, whether that is accurate or not.
So yeah, knowing that the TV may or may not be accurate (or more specifically, no, it’s not accurate), you’ll take that over a 3rd party with a reputation for high accuracy.
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
Don't forget that FG has two data sources for velocity too.
Pitchfx data and BIS, both agree on Capps’ career high.
I like how that person automatically assumes more velocity = better results.
by R.J. Anderson on Dec 14, 2009 11:37 AM EST up reply actions
Pitchfx actually has 2006 slightly higher now that I look at past numbers.
by R.J. Anderson on Dec 14, 2009 11:39 AM EST up reply actions
Pretty interesting that you mention that
I’ve been putting together the game-by-game FIP/wOBA for Soriano last year and then added in a look at his “whiff%” which I had as Swing Strikes/BF on a game-by-game basis.

Then I looked at his fastball velocity over the course of last year:

Pretty interesting that as the year went on, his fastball velocity increased, his swinging strikes per batter increased, but so did his FIP and wOBA.
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 14, 2009 11:47 AM EST up reply actions
Do you have his fly ball data?
Because his homers really picked up late in the year. I’m guessing if you ran xFIP (just take the fly balls amount *10.6 and use this for your HR input) he’d be better after the halfway point.
by R.J. Anderson on Dec 14, 2009 11:50 AM EST up reply actions
That 10.6 can't be right, I'm guessing that's a percentage?
.106?
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 14, 2009 11:54 AM EST up reply actions
Certainly took the variability out

I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 14, 2009 12:00 PM EST up reply actions
Here's the slope
0.000007
Looks like HR luck evaded him, hard.
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 14, 2009 12:04 PM EST up reply actions
Look at J.P.'s June/July numbers.
Might be the best stretch of pitching in the majors this year out of the pen.
by R.J. Anderson on Dec 14, 2009 12:05 PM EST up reply actions
I think that xFIP stuff got put on the wrong axis so disregard that trendline
I just accidentally saved over it looking at the JP stuff, FML.
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 14, 2009 12:21 PM EST up reply actions
Game-by-game xFIP is a bit messy anyways.
It probably works better by month, although you’d have to assume fly ball data is equally distributed.
by R.J. Anderson on Dec 14, 2009 12:32 PM EST up reply actions
It's not bad actually it seems to take a lot of the variation out of the data so that most
of it has much smaller residuals around the trendline.
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 14, 2009 12:34 PM EST up reply actions
Well, that's the point.
Although, if you’re looking at the chart just to see the ebbs and flows of a season, stripping the luck portion probably doesn’t do much for you.
by R.J. Anderson on Dec 14, 2009 12:36 PM EST up reply actions
Here's JP

http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj216/SayHeyRays/PizzleTrends.jpg
I think these two are going to be dynomite complementing each other in the back end.
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 14, 2009 12:32 PM EST up reply actions
As nice as Capps would be, I think he'll be priced out of our range
If we’re looking for just another MR. I don’t see him taking much less than what he made last year which was 2.4. Calero or another oft-injured arm with upside is still more likely.
www.draysbay.com, www.beyondtheboxscore.com, Twitter @trancel
by Tommy Rancel on Dec 14, 2009 1:32 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Just curious
If the Ray`s bring in another reliever would it be to compete for long reliever ,situational specialist or MR? What role do you see Cormier in? I think he pitched his way into MR from LR.
How can you have any pudding if you havn`t eaten your meat? I`m still waiting...
by Barnese and Bailey Circus on Dec 14, 2009 11:13 AM EST reply actions
New reliever would likely be MR.
I’m guessing Cormier is still the long-man. Yeah, he pitched decently, but the fact that’s one of the few guys capable of going 3+ innings in the pen probably cements him there, barring some elite rise.
by R.J. Anderson on Dec 14, 2009 11:15 AM EST up reply actions
Sonny
I`m not ready to write off Sonny just yet. Yes he was beyond horrible last year but he has been solid prior to that and has been awesome in minors before he lost command last year. Sonny`s cheap, Cormier`s guarantied contract, just not sure it would be a fiscally sound move to bring in a new guy unless on a two way contract.
How can you have any pudding if you havn`t eaten your meat? I`m still waiting...
by Barnese and Bailey Circus on Dec 14, 2009 11:32 AM EST up reply actions
I wouldn't write him off either.
At the same time, Sonnanstine is the probably the sixth starter right now. Either you can keep him in the bullpen as a MR/LR type, which you would if he were out of options, or let him stay stretched out in Durham. I mean, someone’s going to get hurt eventually in the rotation. That’s just a fact of life.
by R.J. Anderson on Dec 14, 2009 11:34 AM EST up reply actions
Ageed
Hellickson and Hernandez would be down to replace Sonny in the pen in case of injury. Hellboy in a short stint, Hernandez a longer case scenario.
How can you have any pudding if you havn`t eaten your meat? I`m still waiting...
by Barnese and Bailey Circus on Dec 14, 2009 11:40 AM EST up reply actions
Hopefully a MR
We need another MR who can get out LH batters. Not a loogy (got one) but someone who can throw well to LH batters and not get lit up from the right side.
pitch F/X
I`ve been watching MLB gameday for a while now during MLB telecasts and haven`t been able to figure it`s meaning out and am now forced (humiliated) to ask. What does F/X information imply?
How can you have any pudding if you havn`t eaten your meat? I`m still waiting...
by Barnese and Bailey Circus on Dec 14, 2009 11:48 AM EST reply actions
Pitch F/X is a system that's used to determine the speed and location of a pitched baseball.
It uses a combination of radars, lasers, and dark magic to do this. Pretty much the end-all-be-all piece of technological baseball equipment for tracking pitches.
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
F/X
Thank you for the reply. What does the number (eg. 4.5") imply. What does the number mean relative to type of pitch? How do you analyze this information?
How can you have any pudding if you havn`t eaten your meat? I`m still waiting...
by Barnese and Bailey Circus on Dec 14, 2009 12:33 PM EST up reply actions
You look at the vertical and horizontal break.
A negative number implies inward movement to righties or down. Think of it as you’re looking from the catcher’s mask and there’s a number line in front of you, with 0,0 being the middle of the zone/plate.
by R.J. Anderson on Dec 14, 2009 12:34 PM EST up reply actions
Gotcha
One last thing, does F/X measure movement of the ball during the pitch or the distance from center of the strike zone?
How can you have any pudding if you havn`t eaten your meat? I`m still waiting...
by Barnese and Bailey Circus on Dec 14, 2009 12:38 PM EST up reply actions
Movement of the ball versus a pitch with no spin.
That’s why fastballs and other pitches have high vertical movements — i.e. ~10 inches is usual for guys who throw hard like Garza — even though a fastball doesn’t actually rise 10 inches.
by R.J. Anderson on Dec 14, 2009 12:40 PM EST up reply actions
I use the data more for velocity, whiff percentages, selection and location than anything.
If I see a pitch looks flat — this was the case with Niemann’s four-seamer — I’ll check the movement to see if it backs my assertion, but otherwise I’m pretty vanilla with my pitchfx usage.
by R.J. Anderson on Dec 14, 2009 12:42 PM EST up reply actions
Balfour`s?
How can you have any pudding if you havn`t eaten your meat? I`m still waiting...
by Barnese and Bailey Circus on Dec 14, 2009 12:44 PM EST up reply actions
Thanks again
Hopefully this will make Gameday viewing more enjoyable.
How can you have any pudding if you havn`t eaten your meat? I`m still waiting...
by Barnese and Bailey Circus on Dec 14, 2009 12:43 PM EST up reply actions
Gameday is great for that because they do all the work plotting the pitches
You can see the data, but for most people, the plotted pitches are more intuitive.
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 14, 2009 12:45 PM EST up reply actions
11:52am: Ken Rosenthal of FOX Sports says Lackey had a physical today with the Red Sox, which is “an indication that he is close to an agreement with the team.”
Vikings 4 the superbowl
Toronto's gonna get screwed over on their first rounder, again.
by R.J. Anderson on Dec 14, 2009 1:07 PM EST up reply actions
BtB had a good piece on this
saying they aren’t too far off, though Burnett is better. Also this is horrible for Tor, the system needs to change/bend for these type of situations, Bos will get a first round pick for Wagner and should have to forfeit that to Tor (first easy solution that popped into my mind).
the ghost of stokes, camp, lugo strikes TB-sept 2009
by CubFanRaysaddict on Dec 14, 2009 1:08 PM EST up reply actions
Lackey's a guy that's durability had been his best feature.
He hasn’t been all that durable of late.
Just at the beginning of the season
Late starts, late finishes, I’ll take that over early finishes
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by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 14, 2009 1:14 PM EST up reply actions
He's missed the first month the last two years
I would rather miss the first month than the last month.
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 14, 2009 1:20 PM EST up reply actions
Shields,Garza,Price--wow
Vikings 4 the superbowl
Red Sox also trying to sign Beckett to an extension
i hope they do, the last couple of years he has started to decline
Vikings 4 the superbowl
Who would you replace him with?
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by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 14, 2009 1:29 PM EST up reply actions
Stupid question, I guess.
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 14, 2009 1:34 PM EST up reply actions
Salary aside
I’d use Shopp vs LHP and against a good share of righties unless Jaso or Lobes proves otherwise. Shopp is too good to have Navi hit LHP and Navi is not good at all vs RHP.
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Use Shopp against below average righties for sure.
by R.J. Anderson on Dec 14, 2009 1:42 PM EST up reply actions
Any chance of a Derek Shelton interview?
How can you have any pudding if you havn`t eaten your meat? I`m still waiting...
by Barnese and Bailey Circus on Dec 14, 2009 1:44 PM EST up reply actions
They could just use Navi to give Shopp a break here and there
Does any team have a catching tandem with ideal platoon splits? Shopp should definitely get all lefties, but after that I think it comes down to matchups and who’s fresher.
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 14, 2009 1:46 PM EST up reply actions
I'm just saying that not every position necessarily needs to be filled by two guys with complimentary platoon splits
Yes it makes sense to sign Navi below market and trade him, but I would think his tag would have to get down closer to 1M before you get anything of substance for him. What if they are looking for a backup that has Major League experience?
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 14, 2009 1:50 PM EST up reply actions
It does, but when either one gets dinged up, there would seem to be less of a fall off to the other
This could fall under Cameron’s “limiting downside” theory. It’s one of the few positions that we don’t have an immediate replacement if the starter gets hurt. Navi might suck, but not as much as Jaso/Lobes.
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 14, 2009 1:53 PM EST up reply actions
I wouldn't rule out the option
Brewers have some catchers in Lucroy and Salome.
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He's a much better fit
This is probably the question that should be asked, though I guess there’s an argument that Navi carries more future value, only because he wasn’t alive to see Geddy Lee tear up the Philly Spectrum in 1974.
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 14, 2009 2:08 PM EST up reply actions
He does carries more FV
If he is only catching vs good RHP he will not do much to increase his value at the dish. His value probably won’t be much higher unless Shoppah gets hurt.
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I agree...
Why refuse to pay Zaun 2m and then pay Navi more than that? Counting Zaun’s option buyout, it cost 600k to have Navi instead. Granted you get one more year of team control, but it’s an expensive year, and, oh yeah, he sucks.
by ChiBurbRaysFan on Dec 14, 2009 2:09 PM EST up reply actions
Ray`s don`t want either one
At least they got a 2nd rounder for Zaun. Shoppach is their man. Navi will be traded.
How can you have any pudding if you havn`t eaten your meat? I`m still waiting...
by Barnese and Bailey Circus on Dec 14, 2009 2:11 PM EST up reply actions
That's fair, if the plan was to unload both of them all along,
then they probably did the best they could have done to get something back for both of them.
by ChiBurbRaysFan on Dec 14, 2009 2:13 PM EST up reply actions
How many games do you see Shopp starting?
Trade Navi have Jaso/ Lobaton catch the rest. Major injury would need to be addressed even if we keep Navi so roll the dice.
How can you have any pudding if you havn`t eaten your meat? I`m still waiting...
by Barnese and Bailey Circus on Dec 14, 2009 2:07 PM EST up reply actions
I'd like to see Shopp in 120+
If there is a major injury at least we would have a guy that has played that many games before that doesn’t cost as much as Pudge or Kendall.
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 14, 2009 2:21 PM EST up reply actions
120 seems reasonable
I`d bet Shelton`s reputation is on the line if he busts.
How can you have any pudding if you havn`t eaten your meat? I`m still waiting...
by Barnese and Bailey Circus on Dec 14, 2009 2:24 PM EST up reply actions
I highly doubt that
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 14, 2009 2:36 PM EST up reply actions
Is this the consensus of the commenting body?
I’m surprised. It seems logical to sign Navi to a below market value contract and trade him. We have cheaper options who can fill in vs good RHP and do as good a job.
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Career Navi splits vs RHP
.245/.302/.339 Thats pretty awful for a defined role
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2005 in AAA
Navi’s split vs RHP .269/.381/.366. No better than any of the names I wrote on.
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I don't think I'm foolish to think that Navi is the better defensive catcher
Especially if his tubby ass won’t be out there everyday.
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 14, 2009 2:39 PM EST up reply actions
Here's a look at the offensive difference over the last 3 years
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 14, 2009 2:41 PM EST up reply actions
The average ML catcher was good for a wOBA of .315, .318, .317 from 2007 to 2009, respectively.
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 14, 2009 2:42 PM EST up reply actions
So your saying Navi sucks?
That will be uglier if you run in soley vs upper echelon righties
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We so Shouse and Kapler both face righties
I think it would be wrong to assume that Navi will have 0 PA’s at the end of 2010 against righties.
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 14, 2009 2:53 PM EST up reply actions
Right, but predominantly
I’m not even sure Navi’s optimal usage isn’t vs LHP, would hurt Shopp’s overall numbers, but might maximize team’s
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Speaking of Kapler
You cringe when he faces RHP, right?
Career vs RHP
Kapler
OBP .322
SLG .392
Navi
OBP .302
SLG .339
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Navi is a corner outfielder?
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 14, 2009 3:05 PM EST up reply actions
Cringing is cringing
When he’s batting in a key situation, he’s a hitter ,not a corner outfielder. He also plays a position where currently we don’t account for defensive difference. Can we do better than a .302/.339 split for 2.1 Million? I vote yes.
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Who?
Kendall and Pudge will put up worse numbers and just got 3M per. I guess you can blame the FO’s, but they would have gone in a different direction if they could.
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 14, 2009 3:13 PM EST up reply actions
Terrible signings
Thats not the benchmark I want to use. Either team would be better off with young AAA or AAAA talent and extra money.
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It might not be the benchmark you want to use, but it's one that the market has absorbed
There’s a hundred guys in the minors and Mexico that might be a better fit, but none of them have proven to be able to withstand the rigors of a ML season.
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 14, 2009 3:25 PM EST up reply actions
What makes a player in their late 30's more fit to withstand the rigors?
Old man power? A fresh young body should be far more durable.
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John Baker
if I could get anyone with regards to contract. Don`t know what Marlins would ask for. He is however a defensive liability though.
How can you have any pudding if you havn`t eaten your meat? I`m still waiting...
by Barnese and Bailey Circus on Dec 14, 2009 3:48 PM EST up reply actions
I'm a huuuuge John Baker fan
Huge
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 14, 2009 3:57 PM EST up reply actions
hes perfect
Marlins will want our first born and Andrew Friedman for their starting C
Fire and Ice: Rafael Soriano and J.P Howell.......with their side kick Grant the aussie Balfour!
Lobes and Carlin are supposed to be a good defensive catchers
Jaso and Phillips not so much.
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Navi should be traded
They may wait until camp breaks however to reduce the risk of injury to Shopp.
How can you have any pudding if you havn`t eaten your meat? I`m still waiting...
by Barnese and Bailey Circus on Dec 14, 2009 1:50 PM EST up reply actions
All of these guys will get an open tryout in February when we have 200+ pitchers report
They’re going to need catchers.
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 14, 2009 1:51 PM EST up reply actions
Oh God. Yes.
Escobar:“Tampa would be a good place.They have a need for relief pitching.Last year they lost several games because of the bullpen.”
by R.J. Anderson on Dec 14, 2009 1:46 PM EST up reply actions
Er
Escobar:“Tampa would be a good place.They have a need for relief pitching.Last year they lost several games because of the bullpen.”
by R.J. Anderson on Dec 14, 2009 1:46 PM EST up reply actions
oh man
He really wants to be a Ray, bring him to us!
Fire and Ice: Rafael Soriano and J.P Howell.......with their side kick Grant the aussie Balfour!
that would be awesome
also been a big fan of Escobar
Vikings 4 the superbowl
always not also
god who am i Buster Onley?
Vikings 4 the superbowl
He also said that adding him and Soriano would make them much better
Fire and Ice: Rafael Soriano and J.P Howell.......with their side kick Grant the aussie Balfour!
Two-year extension earlier this off-season.
by R.J. Anderson on Dec 14, 2009 2:17 PM EST up reply actions
What's you thoughts on Lackey?
Mine—we can’t worry about what others do, only our own roster
Since we're signing all these relievers
What are we going to trade for now?
2009 Rays Baseball: Welp.....we'll try again in 2010
2009 FSU Football: Thanks for the memories, Bobby Bowden
by JMB on Dec 14, 2009 2:36 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Possible good news
Angels still in the running for Lackey, he hasn’t signed with the Red Sox
Fire and Ice: Rafael Soriano and J.P Howell.......with their side kick Grant the aussie Balfour!

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