Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Login-facebook
Around SBN: Knicks Beat Lakers With Familiar Strategy

Why Billy Wagner Makes No Sense for the Tampa Bay Rays

Edit: Here's another reason; he's an Atlanta Brave.

The unfortunate has become reality as the Boston Red Sox decided to offer Billy Wagner arbitration. Wagner qualifies as a Type-A free agent, which qualifies Boston for a generous compensation if their late season rental signs elsewhere. In the Rays case, signing Wagner would be the equivalent of trading their 2010 first round pick, not the compensatory pick but the actual 2010 pick, for Wagner. Ignoring the state of the bullpen and the rest of the roster and let's examine this as we would any trade.

Wagner is 38-years-old, left-handed, and split 17 games between Boston and the Mets this season. He still throws hard, albeit not the missiles launched back in his heyday. He missed most of the year with an arm injury, but threw 47 innings in 2008 and 68 in 2007. Since 2007, his FIP have been 3.09, 2.66, and 2.33; meanwhile his WAR during the same time period are  1.4, 1.2, and 0.4. In order to project Wagner normally we'd weigh his numbers 5-3-2 (this is the recommended weighing for pitchers only, hitters are still 5-4-3) and then apply corrections based on league, park, and age. Of course, in this case, weighing 15 innings too heavily isn't ideal in the least. Rather than skew the numbers and make a mockery of the projection,  I went with a 5-4-3 scale.

Ah, but we also have to regress towards the mean. So we'll add a "2" to our weighing, with this accounting for the league average FIP of relievers. The average NL relief run average the past three years has been around 4.3. Now, it's not perfect to weigh Wagner against all NL relievers, but this it's a quick and dirty way. So all told Wagner's weighed average comes out to be 2.87. That's without age/league/park adjustments and completely ignoring his injury history. 2.87 is comparable with Mariano Rivera's 2009. Assuming Wagner would throw similar innings and leverage, he would be worth about 2 WAR - or $9M. Let's label that outcome "ridiculously optimistic".

Thanks to Victor Wang's outstanding research - outlined here - we know that a late first round pick is worth $5.2M. The Rays are picking closer to the middle than the end, but we'll use that value anyways. What this allows us to do is figure out the salary in which Wagner, on a one-year-deal, would make sense for the Rays to sign him at. Or, in fewer words: the break-even point.

In equation form: $9M - Wagner's salary must be greater than or equal to $5.2M in order for the deal to make sense.

The maximum price the Rays should be willing to pay for Wagner in this scenario is $3.8M. That is the break-even point. They won't gain or lose any surplus value if this comes to fruition. Here's the problem: we noted Wagner's performance as "ridiculously optimistic". He has a non-zero chance of reaching such heights. The Rays can't rely on a 5-10% chance though, not when it comes to trading with the Red Sox.

Wagner would have to come extremely cheap if his signing makes sense on the Rays part. Boston has the arbitration offer on the table. The difference in salary between the two sides isn't a few hundred thousand, but many millions. Unless Wagner cares more about saves than money, he's not going to end up in a Rays uniform.

Comment 35 comments  |  0 recs  | 

Do you like this story?

Around SB Nation

This Week At Talking Chop

Nov 2010 from Talking Chop - 10 comments

Braves 2011 Top-25 Prospects: 1-5

Dec 2010 from Talking Chop - 111 comments

Venters' Rookie Campaign

Jan 2011 from Beyond the Box Score - 0 comments

Comments

Display:

With a vesting option that makes it 2 yr 13.5

Way to rich for our blood.

www.draysbay.com

by Tommy Rancel on Dec 2, 2009 7:23 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Depending on Atlanta's other moves, Boston gets pick #20.

The more interesting dynamic is whether Boston signs one of the Braves’ Type-A relievers.

by R.J. Anderson on Dec 2, 2009 7:25 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Huh. I liked this move for them until I read this.

I thought their 1st round pick was protected. But I guess it’s not that bad considering they may get two back if their closers sign elsewhere.

I'm a Brett Favre honk so FUCK YOU!

by PriceMultiCyYoungs on Dec 2, 2009 8:51 AM EST up reply actions  

meh

They pick up a sandwich pick too by not resigning one of them. Gonzo just signed with Boras, so I imagine he’ll be looking for a bit more (especially years-wise). I’d also expect Soriano to be a bigger commitmit as well.

by rglass44 on Dec 2, 2009 1:44 PM EST up reply actions  

If a "lotttery" team signs one of them, they only get a second rounder.

A high second rounder, mind you, but I’m not sure the trade off in value is going to be worth it. We’ll see.

by R.J. Anderson on Dec 2, 2009 1:51 PM EST up reply actions  

I just mean it mitigates it some for them.

I also think once we see what deals Soriano and Gonzo get it may change things too.

by rglass44 on Dec 2, 2009 2:02 PM EST up reply actions  

Season over. GO YANKS!

Mira Sorvino...Paul Walker...T-Pain...Fall 2010...HEADSTONE MAFIA, A LOVE STORY OF REVENGE. "5/5 stars!!!" - DRB User "Andy Hellicksonstine"

by PlayOnWords on Dec 2, 2009 9:14 AM EST reply actions  

I like our young arms

I’m starting to think we might not even pursue a Calero or a Benoit, though I’m psyched that Calero wasn’t offered arb.

I'm a writer.

by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 2, 2009 9:24 AM EST reply actions  

*was not offered.

I'm a Brett Favre honk so FUCK YOU!

by PriceMultiCyYoungs on Dec 2, 2009 9:34 AM EST up reply actions  

I wouldn't give Benoit more than a minor lg deal with an invite

And he’s been a target on mine since like August. Calero’s value doesn’t change much as he was a type B. I doubt he would’ve accepted anyway had the marlins offered. 1yr/1 for him + an option and a minor lg deal for Benoit and I’m good.

www.draysbay.com

by Tommy Rancel on Dec 2, 2009 9:43 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

I would think it will take more than that

We’re not the only smart team looking to add an relief arm.

I'm a writer.

by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 2, 2009 9:47 AM EST up reply actions  

Both

Benoit is coming off a 2/6 deal that paid him 3.5 not to play last year while he was getting the shoulder taken care of. He probably will sign for a minor league deal because of that, but there’s a non-zero chance that some team thinks he’s worth a Mil guaranteed. Florida was able to ink Kiko last year to a minor league deal, but he pitched well and I could see him looking for more than years and/or dollars. 2/3 or 1/2

I'm a writer.

by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 2, 2009 10:52 AM EST up reply actions  

Calero could be available for similar to what Nelson got last year

Calero has a bit more of a better track record, so perhaps 1yr, 1.5mil is a starting point. Most of the players offered arbitration are relievers, which increases the odds that the Rays try to add another reliever via trade, perhaps someone like Oakland’s Wuertz, who is also up for arbitration this year. Rays will prob take a flier on someone of the likes of Calero, Beno, Putz, and trade for another reliever.

by raysfaninminnesota on Dec 2, 2009 11:16 AM EST up reply actions  

I would be 1000% for signing Putz.

Only because we’d have our EXPERIENCED CLOSER and Peez can go back to roaming and slaying.

Mira Sorvino...Paul Walker...T-Pain...Fall 2010...HEADSTONE MAFIA, A LOVE STORY OF REVENGE. "5/5 stars!!!" - DRB User "Andy Hellicksonstine"

by PlayOnWords on Dec 2, 2009 11:50 AM EST up reply actions  

If slaying is involved he should probably take

Longoria, Upton, Pena, Rodriguez, Shoppach, Burrell, Joyce, Perez, Gross, Brignac, and Zobrist with him so that they can hack-n-slash their way to the Princess. We’re going to have about 1,500 K’s next year.

I'm a writer.

by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 2, 2009 11:56 AM EST up reply actions  

This is very true

We will set a time of posession record with our Ks and BBs

Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla

by FreeZorilla on Dec 2, 2009 12:59 PM EST up reply actions  

Guys like Brendan Donnelly and Jason Grilli

Are looking at minor league deals, unless a team really wants Benoit, he’s probably in that group. He could also be a Jason Isringhausen type signing. I could see him signing a minor lg deal with something in place to be part of the 40 man roster or an opt out date.

As mentioned, Calero is hitting the market with in Joe Nelson fashion albeit with a larger history. You could do a 1 yr/1.5 guarantee with a 2 mil option/500k buyout. I would jive with that.That would essentially be what you’re talking about a 1/2 mil or a 2/3.5.

www.draysbay.com

by Tommy Rancel on Dec 2, 2009 11:29 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Grilli is already signed

Just he nor the team know it. I just thought your numbers were a little low is all, I think we’ve reached a good compromise position.

I'm a writer.

by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 2, 2009 11:49 AM EST up reply actions  

And now we know

Grilli signed minor lg deal with Indians.

www.draysbay.com

by Tommy Rancel on Dec 2, 2009 12:10 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

One factor perhaps missing in the above equation

that should tilt it a little in Wagner’sfavor.

The first round pick value doesn’t come for free. It’s not like the guy drafted doesn’t get paid. So unless Wang already subtracted average cost of contracts and bonuses off average production from the spot, the payroll cost of the pick factors in as well. He may well have done so (I don’t recall the detail) and if so then the point is moot.

First round pick compensation is nothing to sneeze at – could easily be multiple millions.

by nyyfaninlaaland on Dec 2, 2009 7:04 PM EST reply actions  

Okay, I went back and looked at his numbers

and there are comp factors included, though using MLB slot recs rather than actual bonus comp may not be ideal as some 2nd half first rounders are overslot signings by teams looking to get slipped prospects due to $ demands, etc. But it won’t on average change the equation in a huge way.

A simple but tedious approach would measure the actual bonuses given vs Wang’s average of $1.28MM for slots 16-30 in the original. My sense says that number is low, but I have no sense for how low.

by nyyfaninlaaland on Dec 2, 2009 7:37 PM EST up reply actions  

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Founded in 2005, DRaysBay is home to, "Progressive statistical analysis and reasoned argument."

Please read our Community Guidelines.

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

Small
Zobrist vs Pedroia vs Cano
Scaled_php_small
Rays Community Prospect #31 Runoff
127992041_extra_large_small
Fantasy Baseball 2012

Recent FanPosts

Scaled_php_small
Rays Community Prospect #33
Scaled_php_small
Rays Community Prospect #32
Scaled_php_small
Rays Community Prospect #31
Scaled_php_small
Rays Community Prospect #30 (Again)
Scaled_php_small
Rays Community Prospect #30 Runoff
Small
Take A Moment To Rosterbate
Scaled_php_small
Rays Community Prospect #30
Cloudtree_small
Statistics Manager at ESPN (Job Opening)

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >

FanShots

Quick hits of video, photos, quotes, chats, links and lists that you find around the web.

Recent FanShots

ESPN Chat with Matt Moore
Danny Clyburn: 1974-2012
Joe Maddon Town Hall Contest
Hickey said as of now all of the starters -- Wade Davis, Jeff Niemann,...
White Sox sign Dan Johnson
Indians acquire Canzler
Justin Ruggiano to Elect Free Agency
Dougdirt over at MinorLeagueBall compiled John Sickels' rankings with WAR values from Victor Wang's research.

Thread here.
The increasingly desperate search for offense has caused some teams to...
Zobrist wallpaper I made :]
Actual Link: http://i1207.photobucket.com/albums/bb472/lewiedesigns/Wallpapers/Zobristwallpaper.jpg

+ New FanShot All FanShots >

DRB Fantasy Baseball

Friends of the Site

DRB Suggestion Box

Drb4_medium


Managers

Slowsky__1__small Steve Slowinski

Dad_small Jason Collette

Brad_small BWoodrum

Price_small Erik Hahmann

Analysts

Lob-city_design_small rglass44

Untitled_small EminenceFront

Small Mulva

Rutg_uakjmedjwh9ndzd4lkll_small Imperialism32

100_1952_small MrNegative1

Steak-with-crown_small CBJones

Whelk_small Whelk

Small PGP

Scaled_php_small mr. maniac

Tampa_theatre_small jcmitchell

Me_small John Gregg