Should Fred McGriff be in the Hall of Fame?

by thebaddancingraysfan on Dec 22, 2009 11:18 PM EST Comment 28 comments

There was a great article in the St.Pete Times that asked whether or not Fred McGriff deserves to be in the Hall of Fame. Good question.

Personally, my opinion was that McGriff was very good. McGriff was very good but never great. I compare McGriff to an album that wasn't a huge success commercially but great to listen to over and over again.

Now, I know baseball is full of very good players who never made it to the Hall of Fame. But, does McGriff truly deserves that obscurity?

What has McGriff done to deserve the Hall of Fame?

19 Seasons. But, he played six different franchises.

5 time All-Star, MVP in 1994. He was never a league MVP.

3 time Silver Slugger. Yeah, but he didn't win a Silver Slugger after 1993.

1 time World Series Champion. Yeah, but that was in '95, a strike shortened season.

Here is what Fred McGiff has done in his baseball playing career:

2,460 games(60th All-Time in MLB History), 10,174 plat appearances (65th All-Time in MLB History), 8,757 at-bats (79th All-Time in MLB History), 1,349 runs(101st All-Time in MLB History), 2,490 hits(93rd All-Time in MLB History), 441 doubles(99th All-Time in MLB History), 493 homeruns (26th All-Time in MLB History), 1,550 RBIs (41st All-Time in MLB History), 1,305 BBs, .284 batting average, .377 slugging percentage (79th All-Time in MLB History), .886 On Base plus Slugging (81st All-Time in MLB History),

Poll

So, Will Fred McGriff ever be enshrined into the Hall of Fame?

Yes.

20 votes

Eventually.

26 votes

No.

23 votes

69 votes | Poll has closed

0 recs | Comment 28 comments

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Comments

For me there are two ways to look at it

Personally I think all Halls allow too many people in. By this strict standard Fred shouldn’t be in.

However the reality is there are quite a few players in that I’d easily put Fred over. Just my opinion.

Fred was my hero growing up. :)

Can we get robots for umpires and a computer to make in game strategy decisions? I'm sick of inconsistently bad umpiring and Joe's pitiful in game management. Oh and Navi (and BJ) need some PED's. BenZo, Bartlett, and Pena do not.

by matthan on Dec 23, 2009 10:54 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

They've let worse players in and nobody should use it for a true measure of talent, so sure.

by R.J. Anderson on Dec 23, 2009 11:34 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

I just don't see the argument FOR McGriff.

Are there worse players in? Undoubtedley. But I also think that even the MSM is a bit better at evaluating talent now than 50 years ago. This allows to try to judge more based his contemporaries than his potential HOF peers. So the question then is “where does a HOF rank among his peers?” That’s the tricky question.

So where does McGriff rate? I’d have a hard time saying he’s a top 5 1B of his generation. Murray, Helton, Bagwell, McGwire, Thomas, Thome, Palmiero, WIll Clark, etc. all have very similar numbers or better.

by rglass44 on Dec 23, 2009 12:57 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

I agree to an extent.

I think he was very good for a long period. Again, was he great? No. Did he play the game the right way? Yes. Should he be remembered for it? I think so. I mean he has been an all-star (MVP), Silver Slugger, World Series Champion, been on multiple play-off teams, and has performed well in both the AL and NL leagues.

Perhaps he will forgotten over time. Perhaps he will just be a trivia question. But he was a pleasure to watch for many years.

Blah!

by thebaddancingraysfan on Dec 23, 2009 1:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

The BBWAA is still mostly bad.

I mean, Jim Rice’s entire argument was based on a qualitative argument that cannot be proven either true or false. I can say McGriff was the most feared hitter of his generation too, doesn’t make it a reason for his induction.

His commercials on the other hand…

by R.J. Anderson on Dec 23, 2009 1:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Rice was great in 1978.

He was good pretty much every year that followed.

Blah!

by thebaddancingraysfan on Dec 23, 2009 2:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Jim Rice in 1970: 315/370/600

Fred McGriff in 1994: 318/389/623

by Samwise Sutty on Dec 23, 2009 2:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Counting stats for 94?

by rglass44 on Dec 23, 2009 2:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

34 HR, 94 RBI, 24 2B.

46 home runs, 25 2B, 139 ribbies… in about 200 more ABs.

by Samwise Sutty on Dec 23, 2009 3:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

He's been on the ballot longer.

You’re right though.

by rglass44 on Dec 23, 2009 8:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I don't think he's in

He was probably the 4th or 5th best 1B of his era. Sure, a few of the guys ahead of him have been tarnished by steroids rumors, but he faces a steep uphill battle. At the very least, McGwire, Bagwell, Palmeiro, Thome, possibly Martinez (not a 1B, but I suspect DHs will be looked at like 1Bs), are all ahead of him. It’s tough to justify why he should be in over a few guys who aren’t (i.e., Mattingley). He never had that really outstanding season. He didn’t quite hit any of the huge benchmarks (and for HRs, 600 is the new 500 anyway). I think he’ll stay on the ballot for 15 years, but I think he’ll fall just short.

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by Brickhaus on Dec 23, 2009 2:31 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Bagwell was such a treat to watch

Too bad the injuries caught up with him, a couple of his season’s could have gone down as all-timers.

I'm a writer.

by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 23, 2009 4:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I hated his batting stance.

I hated the Killer B’s except Derek Bell’s mustache.

by rglass44 on Dec 23, 2009 8:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

wasn't named for doing PEDs?

He was awesome, him, biggio, bell, and KenCam

Blah!

by thebaddancingraysfan on Dec 24, 2009 8:30 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Bagwell? I never heard that but he used to be one of my favorite players along with Ken Griffy Jr.!

--Gerald Wallace is the best player the Bobcats will have..... EVER
--Someone should slap Larry Brown and bring him back to reality..

by raysfan81 on Dec 24, 2009 1:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

We had the same argument when I posted my own McGriff HOF article a while back

Had he not been screwed by the 1994 strike shortened season, he would’ve topped 2,500 hits, 500 homers career and had his 40 home run season. The argument FOR would be a lot stronger with those milestones.

www.draysbay.com, www.beyondtheboxscore.com, Twitter @trancel

by Tommy Rancel on Dec 23, 2009 4:38 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

I do agree w/ you.

If McGriff had 500 HRs, the conversation would be short.

Blah!

by thebaddancingraysfan on Dec 23, 2009 4:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

i still think he should be in

and the strike season should be taken into account—like in terms of that wasn’t really a full season

--Gerald Wallace is the best player the Bobcats will have..... EVER
--Someone should slap Larry Brown and bring him back to reality..

by raysfan81 on Dec 24, 2009 1:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

If not for the Strike season

Matt Williams would have brok Roger Maris’ record.

Blah!

by thebaddancingraysfan on Dec 26, 2009 10:44 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

No.

by floridaroar on Dec 23, 2009 8:12 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

If the question is

will he get in, my guess is it will be tough. By the 4 standards that often suggest election, McGriff falls well short on Black Ink and Gray Ink, is right at the mark on Monitor and slightly below on Standards.

If the question is does he deserve to get in, there are also some negatives. It is not just his lack of the benchmark stats, but I think he falls short by Jaffe’s JAWs score as well. And he cannot get a boost from defense or base running while he did hit into an awful lot of DPs.

On the other hand, although I prefer measuring players by their own performance matched to some sort of standard guideline, his “most similar players” starts with McCovey and Stargell and include Bagwell, Frank Thomas (the greater) and Billy Williams next. The score, however, peaks at 887 for McCovey, so I am not so sure how significant that is.

If we are comparing him to other candidates, I don’t think he looks so bad. Starting with OPS+, his is 134. Eddie Murray’s is 129. Rafael Palmeiro, whose career is almost identical in year span and plate appearances to McGriff’s, is at 132. But I am less interested in comparing him to other players than I am in asking whether a 134 OPS+ at least begins to make a case for him.

And additionally, 12 times his OPS+ was over 140, six times over 150 and three times over 160. His wOBA was .382. His career ISO was .225.

I don’t have much confidence in vague arguments about being feared or respected in his day-for too many reasons to repeat here. It is kind of like saying that Kaiser Wilhelm II was not really considered an ogre (he probably wasn’t an ogre but that is beside the point) because we don’t remember him now with the same shudder as we do Hitler.

I am not certain McGriff belongs, but I don’t think he should be dismissed too quickly. I think he does have a case, and in fact, if you do think that comparing to definite HOFers is a legitimate way to decide, then it seems to me that putting him side by side with Eddie Murray makes a strong case for Fred.

by bobr on Dec 24, 2009 12:57 PM EST reply actions 0 recs