Tampa Bay Rays Reportedly Interested In Roy Halladay; Wade Davis and B.J. Upton Possible Return?
by Tommy Rancel on Dec 7, 2009 5:24 PM EST
358 comments
Update: The godfather, Peter Gammons reports the Rays have denied interest in swapping Davis + Upton for Halladay. However, his report doesn't deny the Rays did some tire kicking. which we would all expect them to do. It is fun to think about Halladay in a Rays uniform, but it remains highly unlikely that anything goes past the feeling out stage.
UPDATE: ESPN's Peter Gammons quips via the Hot Stove that "The Rays have flatly denied their interest in discussing Wade Davis and B.J. Upton for Roy Halladay."
In another Fox Sports report, The Rays are actively shopping Dioner Navarro and are likely to non-tender him if a deal isn't reached by Friday's deadline to tender a contract. Neither scenario, trade or non-tender, is a surprise.
The Rayshave asked Toronto officials about Halladay, according to one major league source, and might be willing to offer star pitching prospect Wade Davis and outfielder B.J. Upton.
Toronto could then flip Upton to a third team.
This isn't the first time that the Rays have shown interest in the Toronto ace. They made a strong push in July, sources said.
Halladay would need to waive his no-trade clause in order for the deal to happen, and it's not clear if he would be willing to do so. But he resides in the Tampa Bay area, so spending one season with the Rays could appeal to him.
So much for ragtag catchers and recycled relievers. While this report seems to come out of nowhere, it seems entirely possible that the Rays would show interest. As the report states, the Rays made a play for Halladay this summer, so it's natural that they would try again. As is the case with 99% of these scenarios it probably won't play out, but stranger things have happened.
For such a trade to take place, it would be a clear indication of the Rays ditching their "thinking long-term" efforts in order to hit big right now. This type of move would be very uncharacteristic of the Rays. Andrew Friedman has yet to acquire an established big name via trade, and it would be really hard to see him doing so within the division. A year of Roy Halladay would be great, but at the cost of three years of B.J. Upton and six years of Wade Davis, I just don't see him doing that.
The Rays could very well have interest in Halladay, but could also be doing their do diligence and seeing exactly what Toronto is asking just to keep tabs on the other teams vying for his services or try and raise the market for one of their competitors.
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So let's see...
1 year of Halladay>9 years of Davis and Upton…. No thanks.
???
And Kaz had a big contract, EJ was in line for a big raise, and Brignac isnt an elite prospect. Upton is still relatively cost controlled, and Davis is obviously cost controlled. I dont see any similarities.
The Rays would have been pretty solid winners in that trade, unbeknowngst to us at the time.
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
yea that would've been awesome
--Gerald Wallace is the best player the Bobcats will have..... EVER
--Someone should slap Larry Brown and bring him back to reality..
Agreed...
I dont see this trade even being an option, unless the Rays feel like Upton wont rebound and Davis will never become anything more then a #4. Like I said, I dont see it.
Yeah, I agree; They have the depth to cover losing Upton, but I don't see them trading 6 years of Davis for 1 year of Halladay
With the exception of EITHER extending CC or Halladay.
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
My guess...
if the Rays are even discussing this, it is probably just to raise the cost for a team like the Sox or Yanks.
That would be one hell of a rotation.
But I wouldn’t possibly do this without being able to secure Halladay to a functional, cost-effective extension. It’ll never happen.
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
This. It would be great to have Halladay, Shields, Garza, Price
But not at the cost of 3 yrs of Upton and 6 of Davis. Even with the additional draft picks from Halladay.
www.draysbay.com
Also, lol at Fox's poll:
Would the Rays be dumb enough to trade Upton for Doc?
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
This line sums up my feelings
try and raise the market for one of their competitors.
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 7, 2009 5:37 PM EST reply actions
N-O
1 year of Halladay for 6 of Davis…in no way is that a good deal on any level.
by raysfaninminnesota on Dec 7, 2009 5:55 PM EST up reply actions
I wouldn't
You still have to pay him $15.75 for the one year, Beej is going to get 2ish maybe more, Davis is making 400K. There is no way you could sell this to me.
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 7, 2009 5:55 PM EST up reply actions
I feel the same way...
Unless the Rays dont see Davis being a legit #3 or better.
I could see him having a Garza-type season next year
He’s paid his dues in the minors and learned a lot of lessons to go with his formidable stuff. I expect big things for Wade.
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 7, 2009 6:01 PM EST up reply actions
I'm still skeptical
His numbers were almost pedestrian in AA and AAA, especially compared to how he dominated the lower levels.
Vroom vroom party starter
www.raysprospects.com
by Imperialism32 on Dec 7, 2009 6:10 PM EST up reply actions
Absolutely
Vroom vroom party starter
www.raysprospects.com
by Imperialism32 on Dec 7, 2009 5:59 PM EST up reply actions
In a heartbeat
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
Keeping in mind
that if we trade Davis and bring nobody else new up this year, we still have a steady pipeline of SP prospects coming up.
Here’s the rationale, BTW. Forget about the whole 1 year versus 9 year thing.
- Assuming he’s healthy, it’s quite possible that Jennings is an upgrade over Upton right this minute. Maybe he’s not, but at worst indications seem to be that he’s a better defender than Upton. I’m pretty confident that Jennings could outperform BJ’s 2009 in 2010.
- Halliday is a big one-year upgrade over Davis Probably 2 – 3 wins.
- Depth is good, but we probably won’t miss Upton or Davis that much. Even if Halladay leaves and all we get back is draft picks in 2010, there’s still a steady stream of pitching prospects in the pipeline. No Davis means there’s room for Hellickson.
The team is in better position to know our players than we are. As Kevin said above, there are some question marks with Davis. We love Upton here, but maybe the team knows something about his makeup that makes them think that 2009 is the norm and 2007 was the aberration?
I guess my point is that making the deal could be viewed as getting the best team possible on the field now, and not compromising the future more than we’re increasing the chances for a championship in 2010.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
What if we are out of the playoff race in July?
We could package Halladay back up if he is not signing for a friendly deal and ship him off to some NL team like LA or something then too.
Upton is one of the three best defensive centerfielders in baseball.
Let’s not make proclamations that have slim chances of being true.
by R.J. Anderson on Dec 7, 2009 6:24 PM EST up reply actions
2009 BJ wouldnt be terribly difficult to replace....
But “2009 BJ” probably isnt the real BJ Upton.
Probably
But upgrading the rotation like this and likely remaining at least even in CF while not really killing our future that much is a deal that should be made.
Vroom vroom party starter
www.raysprospects.com
by Imperialism32 on Dec 7, 2009 6:30 PM EST up reply actions
I wasn't commenting on the deal as a whole.
I don’t know how that comment can even be taken as such.
by R.J. Anderson on Dec 7, 2009 6:31 PM EST up reply actions
I didn't say you were?
Vroom vroom party starter
www.raysprospects.com
by Imperialism32 on Dec 7, 2009 6:31 PM EST up reply actions
Is he really?
His UZR was great this last year, but SSS, and he was mediocre the year before (albeit while still learning a bit on the job).
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
Last two seasons (ignoring 2007 based on learning curve) only Cameron and someone else were ahead of him.
by R.J. Anderson on Dec 7, 2009 7:13 PM EST up reply actions
I'm looking at it now
11 in 1228.2 innings last year
10.3 in 1248.2 innings in 2008
2 in 664.2 innings in 2007 with OTJ training
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 7, 2009 7:14 PM EST up reply actions
With an innings limit that allows Carlos Gomez in:
http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=cf&stats=fld&lg=all&qual=1500&type=0&season=2009&month=12
And since Andruw Jones is no longer a CFer.
by R.J. Anderson on Dec 7, 2009 7:18 PM EST up reply actions
I bet he would be if the game were called Hamburgerball instead of baseball
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
Gotcha
I probably should have looked at the stats again then. I recalled him being more in the 2-5 range in 2008.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
Lets be real....
How often does THIS Rays FO let rumors out like this. This is someone just posturing and increasing the market. The Yanks and Sox know they would be in a lot of trouble next season if Halladay were a Ray.
Increasing Boston and New York package is a great idea.
This trade won’t happen, but Wade Davis showed a very good final month and his value is pretty high right now. Same with Niemann
Poor B.J Upton
Just when we thought he was going to regress.
Why do you kill threads????
by Some other guy who does not care on Dec 7, 2009 6:04 PM EST reply actions
I don't think it's only to have a ace for at the least this year
its for competiting in the AL East again
Wade Davis can be replaced by Jeremy Hellickson
B.J Upton by Desmond Jennings
A SP and a CF being dealt wont kill them
Give me a CC long term deal, please!
And when Halladay leaves
Toronto would have Davis for 5 years and either Upton for 2 or the prospects they get for him in a trade. That doesn’t help the Rays at all beyond this year.
www.draysbay.com
by Tommy Rancel on Dec 7, 2009 6:17 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
They'll have someone's good young players
Halladay’s getting traded either way.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
by Brickhaus on Dec 7, 2009 6:18 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
And he likely ends up with the Red Sox or Yanks as a FA
Rather not have him go to one of those teams anyway in 2011 and lose Davis and Upton to the Jays in the process. That’s not the good business.
www.draysbay.com
by Tommy Rancel on Dec 7, 2009 6:24 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
The Angels and Dodgers both have the financial muscle to bid with the Red Sox.
The Yankees are going to sign whoever the hell they want no matter what; I don’t like using them in these types of comparisons anymore.
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
*And the Mets
But since the Mets are dumb, I don’t count them.
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
With ownership in turmoil, I wouldn't bank on the Cubs bidding on him, but I guess it would fit numerically.
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
I have to at least assume.
Seattle too.
by R.J. Anderson on Dec 7, 2009 6:31 PM EST up reply actions
I feel like the 'trading in division' excuse is a cop out for bad GMs
If you’re getting the better half of the trade, then it shouldn’t matter who the partner is. Just if you screw up and get the worse half of it, then it’s easier for the owner to point the finger at the GM. If part of the reason you’re trading these guys is because you think the league is overvaluing them and you have better options to step into their spots (which is what I think would be the case if they’re serious about this trade), then we shouldn’t be too worried about the team trading away a couple of guys they think aren’t going to peak that high.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
But in the Rays case, they're trading away fantastic talent, only because they have more to replace it.
I can understand a reluctance to send away top-shelf talent within the division.
by ReasonableDoubt on Dec 7, 2009 7:14 PM EST up reply actions
It raises the question of whether we want to help stock another team in the division so that the Yanks and Red Sox (and us) can't just roll them over?
It’s bad enough with 3 really good teams, how much harder would this division be if all 5 could win just about any other division? This is more hypothetical than real so don’t think I’m saying it’s the case.
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 7, 2009 7:17 PM EST up reply actions
Maybe the talent isn't as fantastic as we think it is
The front office is in a better position to evaluate them than we are.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
Well, the FO isn't making the deal, so it should tell us something.
by ReasonableDoubt on Dec 7, 2009 7:20 PM EST up reply actions
That too
And even I don’t think Upton + Davis for Halladay is a fair deal without something else involved. Halladay for Upton straight I’d take without thinking though. Even without overvaluation, it’s probably somewhere in the middle.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
Dammit get Click back in here.
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 7, 2009 7:24 PM EST up reply actions
AF and Co. have balls thats for sure.
Sign lady must die.
by EminenceFront on Dec 7, 2009 6:30 PM EST up reply actions
I don't think it happens. I just like that there's more than one layer to consider.
Even if it’s not legitimate.
by R.J. Anderson on Dec 7, 2009 6:32 PM EST up reply actions
If the Rays could get him to sign an extension, or if they got a really good AA prospect in return from the Jays in return, I'd think this was dreamy.
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
Jason Frasor or Scott Downs or Brandon League too please.
Also, as mentioned below, after next year we have $30M coming off.
by R.J. Anderson on Dec 7, 2009 6:34 PM EST up reply actions
The more it's talked about, the less crazy it sounds.
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
I assume the Jays would have to throw in a second decent player if this is the proposed package
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
Yeah...
That was a rumor several years ago. I think the Rays are the one’s that turned it down if I remember correctly. It was when Thome was in Philly and blocking Howard. Nice job old regime…
CHUCK LAMAR BUILT THIS TEAM
FOR ROCK AND ROLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
No, it was Baldelli for Howard and Myers
Before Baldelli started getting hurt and when Howard was blocked by Thome in the minors. I was peeved when it didn’t happen.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
I would have bit if you weren't an hour and a half late.
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
Well, I mean next season
CC, Pena, Burrell and Wheeler (mostly) come off the books so they would have the money and they have plenty of in house talent to replace those guys
Give me a CC long term deal, please!
As that money comes off we have Longo and Shields getting more expensive and Garza, Upton, Bartlett, Zobie
all hopefully being worth a lot more in Arb.
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 7, 2009 6:34 PM EST up reply actions
Okay, I'll bite
assuming Upton and Davis are traded for Halladay, who could eat 2/3 of that saved $30 MM himself, who are these org guys ready to replace CC, Pena, and Burrell? Maybe there’s a replacement for Wheeler. But where are the 1B, LF and DH in the upper org levels ready to step in? Perhaps LF could be covered by using an asset at 2b and moving Zobrist. The rest – and the plenty, which means more than 1 option to me anyway?
by nyyfaninlaaland on Dec 8, 2009 1:42 AM EST up reply actions
playing Devil's Advocate...
I actually think this will be a great trade. We haven’t sufficiently replaced Kaz yet..You can speculate all you want about how “great you think Wade Davis will be”. But reality is he had two bad games last season: Against the Yankees, and against the Red Sox…We’ ve got to change the FO culture if we want to be perinneal winner in this division and a trade like this will speak volumes for us
We haven't sufficiently replaced a pitcher with a slow straight fastball, control problems, and a history of being injury prone? Well shit, we should go out there and sign Matt Prior.
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
or his brother
the ghost of stokes, camp, lugo strikes TB-sept 2009
by CubFanRaysaddict on Dec 7, 2009 6:37 PM EST up reply actions
God damn it. But that just goes to show how irrelevant Mark is now.
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
Mark Murton
:)
the ghost of stokes, camp, lugo strikes TB-sept 2009
by CubFanRaysaddict on Dec 7, 2009 6:44 PM EST up reply actions
And in the other 4 he had a CGSO, a 7 IP 9K performance, and two other real strong starts
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 7, 2009 6:38 PM EST up reply actions
Still counts
IP H BB SO HR HBP BF 2B 3B 1B FIP wOBA
7.00 3 1 9 1 0 25 1 0 1 2.86 0.192
2.67 6 4 3 0 0 18 1 0 5 5.40 0.479
9.00 4 2 10 0 0 31 2 0 2 1.59 0.185
5.67 7 1 6 0 0 24 0 0 7 1.56 0.293
7.00 7 3 3 0 0 28 1 0 6 3.58 0.314
5.00 6 2 5 1 0 24 1 0 4 4.95 0.343
Here’s his FIP/wOBA by start with the components
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 7, 2009 6:40 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, but see that game second down? Horrible. He needs to go.
by ReasonableDoubt on Dec 7, 2009 6:41 PM EST up reply actions
You're correct
Roy Halladay has this line for every game in his career
9.00 2 0 15 0 0 29 0 0 2 (0.18) 0.062
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 7, 2009 6:43 PM EST up reply actions
I don't know if you're going along with the sarcasm or if he's actually got you hooked.
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
Sarcasm?
What do you know of sarcasm?
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 7, 2009 6:45 PM EST up reply actions
Aww, I was going to keep this going for a while. Dammit.
by ReasonableDoubt on Dec 7, 2009 6:46 PM EST up reply actions
Well you both were being sarcastic so it really wasn't that funny.
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
It was to me, Mr. Buzzkill.
I leave for three months, come back, and you still try to take all my fun.
by ReasonableDoubt on Dec 7, 2009 6:48 PM EST up reply actions
You were gone for 3 months? Huh. I didn't notice. Maybe you should be gone for another 3 months.
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
Yeah, because all I care about is making you smile
baby.
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 7, 2009 6:48 PM EST up reply actions
That's all that matters to me. Now sing me a song, hobbitt.
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
Oh Frodo, take me now or lose me forever.
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 7, 2009 6:55 PM EST up reply actions
Not that we can do better in the short term than Halladay
but with a package of Davis and BJ, how far off could that be from getting another ace (Josh Johnson?) or a guy like Adrian Gonzalez (add a B level spect). I just don’t see one year of Halladay as beneficial in the long term plans of this club regardless of how effectively we can replace BJ and Wade internally.
the ghost of stokes, camp, lugo strikes TB-sept 2009
by CubFanRaysaddict on Dec 7, 2009 6:37 PM EST reply actions
Does it have to be beneficial in the long term
It really helps us in 2010, we have the depth to absorb losing BJ and Wade, and Halladay nets us a 1st rounder and a supplemental pick.
Vroom vroom party starter
www.raysprospects.com
by Imperialism32 on Dec 7, 2009 6:39 PM EST up reply actions
Do we have that depth?
Sure Hellickson is ready to go, but then what? Moore and Barnese are both far away and have some things to work on. Heath Rollins is far away. Talbot doesn’t impress me.
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 7, 2009 6:41 PM EST up reply actions
Alex Torres, Alex Cobb, David Newmann
No superstars but those are three back-end types that will start 2010 at AA or higher.
Vroom vroom party starter
www.raysprospects.com
by Imperialism32 on Dec 7, 2009 6:43 PM EST up reply actions
None have the upside of Davis
Davis’s biggest weaknesses is the walk and lefties and these go hand-in-hand. He is lights out against righties.
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 7, 2009 6:44 PM EST up reply actions
Look, I get wanting to have depth
But right now Hellickson is blocked. Yes, someone will (probably) get injured, but I think in this scenario trading Davis for Halladay and letting Hellickson start is a better use of resources than letting Hellickson sit in AAA just in case.
Vroom vroom party starter
www.raysprospects.com
by Imperialism32 on Dec 7, 2009 6:47 PM EST up reply actions
More realistically, we won't be able to afford Garza much longer.
by ReasonableDoubt on Dec 7, 2009 6:49 PM EST up reply actions
And by then at least one Moore/Barnese should be at least close to ready
Vroom vroom party starter
www.raysprospects.com
by Imperialism32 on Dec 7, 2009 6:50 PM EST up reply actions
Also Garza is under arbitration through 2013(FA after the 2013 season)
Vroom vroom party starter
www.raysprospects.com
by Imperialism32 on Dec 7, 2009 6:51 PM EST up reply actions
Hellickson is only blocked until Hellickson is deemed ready
Jeff Niemann isn’t blocking someone with Hellicksons talent
www.draysbay.com
by Tommy Rancel on Dec 7, 2009 6:52 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Jeff Niemann is nails as long as his shoulder holds up.
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 7, 2009 6:55 PM EST up reply actions
His progression throughout the year was fun to watch.
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
His games this year were slow to watch.
by ReasonableDoubt on Dec 7, 2009 6:57 PM EST up reply actions
He was just thinking about the fans, making sure that in this economy, they got maximum value for their baseball ticket dollar.
Freaking Halladay on the other hand, he’s a heartless bastard with the shortest average game time of all starting pitchers in his starts.
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
Jeff Niemann was heartless...some people had work to go to in the morning!
Halladay had a shorter game-time than Buehrle? That guy doesn’t even blink between pitches.
by ReasonableDoubt on Dec 7, 2009 7:01 PM EST up reply actions
Oh I don't really know, I don't even know if that stat is recorded anywhere.
I was just trying to think of someone who was efficient and hoping you wouldn’t call me out on it.
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
A guy who sucks against lefties
generally would be better off elsewhere rather than the AL East. Because of the dimensions of the fields in the AL East, there’s always going to be a predominance of good lefty hitters there.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
That something he can work on, though.
A good change would be priority 1. Though it didn’t seem to help Price or Kazmir.
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 7, 2009 7:18 PM EST up reply actions
I'd think so
when you’re giving up players of that caliber, not to mention how do we afford Halladay? My point is more based around we could get a hell of a lot by giving up those two players and by adding another guy we could get 2-3 more years from an ace (a lesser ace), but that potential ace could give us three tries with him leading our staff instead of one.
the ghost of stokes, camp, lugo strikes TB-sept 2009
by CubFanRaysaddict on Dec 7, 2009 6:43 PM EST up reply actions
Thats the whole "long term" thinking..
All we’re going to be is a team with a great farm system and a “great future”.But when is that future going to come? Upton honestly hasn’t been himself for 2 seasons. And Davis is an unknown…We dont know what we’re going to get with him. I just think its about time for the FO to make some big big moves and not just planning for the future..B/C if all you do is “plan for the future” you’re not going to go anywhere in the present..When is the “future”
But when is that future going to come?
We’re one year removed from the World Series.
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 7, 2009 6:46 PM EST up reply actions
Seems like what got us out of that position is working pretty well, maybe we should stay the course.
Please use headers in case people don’t want to read what you have to say.
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 7, 2009 6:53 PM EST up reply actions
Don't want to end up being Athletics East either
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
If people would go to games I have faith that we would open the roof a little bit on payroll.
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 7, 2009 7:25 PM EST up reply actions
If we win a world series
more people will go to games
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
You've got to avoid falling into that 'future is now' trap.
There’s a difference between taking a calculated risk while slightly expensing your future and literally throwing talent away. A straight up trade for one year of Halladay for Upton and Davis is throwing away talent, and it’s even worse since it’s going to a divisional foe. The Rays need to get more out of it with an extra player from the Jays. Halladay is extremely expensive and realistically, this team wouldn’t sign him to an extension. The draft picks that would come from his Type A status are also expensive, and refer to that ‘planning for the future’, that you’re currently hating on. They can’t afford to throw away talent.
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
Yes it's throwing away talent
But it’s throwing it away because you have a lot more and because when you throw it away Roy Halladay is popping out of the garbage can for a year.
Vroom vroom party starter
www.raysprospects.com
by Imperialism32 on Dec 7, 2009 6:53 PM EST up reply actions
Just because the Rays have an embarassment of riches doesn't mean that they should be OK with wearing pants with holes in the pockets.
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
I don't see what the problem is with trading Davis and Upton for a year of an awesome pitcher
and two 1st round picks.
Vroom vroom party starter
www.raysprospects.com
by Imperialism32 on Dec 7, 2009 6:56 PM EST up reply actions
Stop assuming that the Rays WILL sign those picks, then look at it again and tell me what you think.
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
If the Rays aren't going to sign the picks
then that would be just pisspoor management. I’m sorry.
Vroom vroom party starter
www.raysprospects.com
by Imperialism32 on Dec 7, 2009 6:58 PM EST up reply actions
We should fire the FO after this year's draft debacle then?
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
Well, no
But if a smaller-market team isn’t consistently signing draft picks then that’s a problem. 2009 was bad, but it’s not a pattern(like it is for the Blue Jays).
Vroom vroom party starter
www.raysprospects.com
by Imperialism32 on Dec 7, 2009 7:00 PM EST up reply actions
I would assume that with 4 picks in the first 2 rounds, that half of them won't be signed.
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
Well then if they don't plan on signing the picks they get from Halladay
along with their regular picks then I wouldn’t make the deal.
Vroom vroom party starter
www.raysprospects.com
by Imperialism32 on Dec 7, 2009 7:04 PM EST up reply actions
Well it's either that, or that 1/2 of the first 4 don't make it past AA.
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
If the Rays don't make the playoffs then that deal looks extremely poor on our half.
As mentioned below, Upton/Halladay are almost equal in surplus value, even with the picks thrown in, and that’s being conservative on Upton.
by R.J. Anderson on Dec 7, 2009 6:58 PM EST up reply actions
Although, again, if you're low on B.J. and Davis, then Halladay definitely raises the playoff probabilites by quite a bit.
by R.J. Anderson on Dec 7, 2009 7:01 PM EST up reply actions
This is pretty much where I'm coming from
I like BJ as much as the next guy (and I’ve never been as high on David as Hellickson, although Davis is still a very good prospect), but if the front office thinks he’s never going to reach his potential because of motivational issues, then better off trading him now before he’s established a track record of mediocrity.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
When did he get the rap of having motivational issues?
I see fire in that man’s eyes every time he steps foot on the mound. He reminds me a lot of Zeus.
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 7, 2009 7:26 PM EST up reply actions
I thought he was talking about Davis
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 7, 2009 7:33 PM EST up reply actions
This guy fears no one
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 7, 2009 7:34 PM EST up reply actions
This.
We could win 95 game with Halladay and still finish in 3rd place. Void of a guarantee playoff birth coming with Halladay, the risk is huge. Very cool to dream about a fantasy baseball type rotation for 2010, but that’s about the extent of it for me.
www.draysbay.com
by Tommy Rancel on Dec 7, 2009 7:06 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Davis is the one who makes this lopsided.
In any other division this is a playoff team. In this one, it’s rough. I think I’d say we’d be around a 94-96 true talent team, which SHOULD get us in, but you can’t guarantee Boston doesn’t turn around and grab Haren.
by R.J. Anderson on Dec 7, 2009 7:07 PM EST up reply actions
They should get Justin while they're at it.
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 7, 2009 7:09 PM EST up reply actions
I love how we're taking this to levels it probably shouldn't have been taken.
by R.J. Anderson on Dec 7, 2009 7:10 PM EST up reply actions
Posey and Bumgarner for Lowell and Tek
Youk to 3rd, v-Mart to 1st
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 7, 2009 7:19 PM EST up reply actions
But if the Rays don't make the playoffs
Then they can always re-flip Halladay at the deadline
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
That's a bit more complicated.
1. You have to assume they will be in the race.
2. Say they’re back like this year. Do you go for it all in that second half, knowing your team is well-equipped to go on a hot streak, or sell the ace? Plus draft picks versus the half year of Halladay.
by R.J. Anderson on Dec 7, 2009 7:24 PM EST up reply actions
I would take 15 straight playoff appearances.
by R.J. Anderson on Dec 7, 2009 7:26 PM EST up reply actions
This so fucking hard
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 7, 2009 7:27 PM EST up reply actions
I don't know how their playoff appearances have anyting to do with getting hosed on the Teixeria trade.
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
Oh. I thought you meant no WS.
Nevermind then.
by R.J. Anderson on Dec 7, 2009 7:30 PM EST up reply actions
Yes, but usually people refer to them as failures.
by R.J. Anderson on Dec 7, 2009 7:33 PM EST up reply actions
This is true, but if anything, I think Cleveland were bigger failures in the 90s.
All those playoff appearances, and the 2 WS they make? They give the Braves their one championship, and they get strong-armed by a Marlins team that bought it. That’s getting fucked.
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
Look back at those teams
Manny, Thome, Lofton, Alomar, Vizquel, Alomar, Belle, more than I can remember off the top of my head, they were sick and the Jake was packed, them were the days for Sternfan1
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 7, 2009 7:36 PM EST up reply actions
They had a monster lineup. They were my team before the Rays.
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
Please, it's hard enough thinking about Joe Table.
You don’t have to mention it aloud.
Sign lady must die.
by EminenceFront on Dec 7, 2009 7:37 PM EST up reply actions
How many times has Friedman or another FO guy
Said the Rays can’t operate in a vacuum? Sure it makes the team better in 2010, but they wouldn’t make such a big move based on that.
www.draysbay.com
by Tommy Rancel on Dec 7, 2009 6:49 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I agree
Davis and Beej is a little much for one year of Halladay. If we’re gonna trade both of them I’d rather get something more long term.
2009 Rays Baseball: Welp.....we'll try again in 2010
2009 FSU Football: Thanks for the memories, Bobby Bowden
by JMB on Dec 7, 2009 7:02 PM EST up reply actions
If you assume Halladay leaves after next season, but has a 7 WAR year ($4.5/WAR)
Then he + the two picks carries a surplus value of nearly 24 mil (value – salary).
If you assume B.J. is a 3 WAR player for each of the next three seasons.
With him being paid this year 40% of last year’s value, then 60%, then 80%, he holds a surplus value of 21.37 million.
by R.J. Anderson on Dec 7, 2009 6:46 PM EST up reply actions
Davis is really the tipping point.
I love three of the Jays relievers, but if Davis is just average he’s got them trumped in surplus value.
But … a 7 WAR addition to this team (and assume Jennings is a league average or slightly below player, you get a ~2 WAR difference from B.J. to D.J., so it’s not exactly 7 WAR) really raises the playoff probabilities. The $40M from a playoff appearance could really help out.
by R.J. Anderson on Dec 7, 2009 6:47 PM EST up reply actions
Jesus. How would you even start to estimate how this would affect the potential for a new stadium?
by R.J. Anderson on Dec 7, 2009 6:52 PM EST up reply actions
How could they turn the AC up to effect homers with a flag in the way?
Officially now the head of the Lobstein bandwagon.
$25M, not $40M.
Also 650k per regular season win.
by R.J. Anderson on Dec 7, 2009 6:57 PM EST up reply actions
I don't give a shit about Halladay, as long as dwin goes to the Yankees my year is made.
Officially now the head of the Lobstein bandwagon.
You guys do realize that AF & Friends are laughing there asses off at all of this.
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 7, 2009 7:01 PM EST reply actions
I sincerely hope they don't read the comments.
by R.J. Anderson on Dec 7, 2009 7:02 PM EST up reply actions
Can we please ban this thing?
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 7, 2009 7:04 PM EST up reply actions
Just because you jerk it to gay nazi porn doesn't mean you are the master race.
Officially now the head of the Lobstein bandwagon.
Hitler would have been a hero if he tried to genocide all the gingers.
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
That's because gingers don;t have souls
2009 Rays Baseball: Welp.....we'll try again in 2010
2009 FSU Football: Thanks for the memories, Bobby Bowden
by JMB on Dec 7, 2009 7:06 PM EST up reply actions
We consume sould like the death eaters from Harry Potter.
Officially now the head of the Lobstein bandwagon.
This would be funny if I had any respect for people who liked Harry Potter.
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
You have to remember that the generation under us can't read a book unless it's non-sense and in size 32 font.
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 7, 2009 7:08 PM EST up reply actions
Back to that well, eh?
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 7, 2009 7:10 PM EST up reply actions
I've never read the book, just know of its reputation
Officially now the head of the Lobstein bandwagon.
Either have I, but this is about the 3rd time you've raised it to defend your credibility
You should expand your horizons. Especially if you’re just dropping titles and not actually, you know, reading them.
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 7, 2009 7:20 PM EST up reply actions
Remember he said the Dark Knight sucked and hadn't seen it
Also that one show TGN1 likes and he has never seen it.
I watched TDK and it was mediocre.
The Wire has a shitty premise and is shitty.
Officially now the head of the Lobstein bandwagon.
Both of you guys have a lot of growing up to do
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 7, 2009 7:28 PM EST up reply actions
I'm sorry if I have goddamn taste and don't suck off everything the AV club tells me to.
Officially now the head of the Lobstein bandwagon.
Just read what interests you, that's what I do
Research the influences of authors that you really like and read them.
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 7, 2009 7:37 PM EST up reply actions
We're talking about books again? Oh, that's what I do.
Officially now the head of the Lobstein bandwagon.
You don't have to be so smug about it, you've accomplished nothing in your life.
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 7, 2009 7:40 PM EST up reply actions
You could probably drop the bitchboy antics, as well as 20-30 pounds.
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 7, 2009 7:40 PM EST up reply actions
Notre Dame actually fired Weis because of child labor laws, not because he sucked at his job.
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
Wilma's Rainbow?
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
or the two generations a head of us
the ghost of stokes, camp, lugo strikes TB-sept 2009
by CubFanRaysaddict on Dec 7, 2009 7:11 PM EST up reply actions
Threw my rec in
2009 Rays Baseball: Welp.....we'll try again in 2010
2009 FSU Football: Thanks for the memories, Bobby Bowden
by JMB on Dec 7, 2009 7:06 PM EST up reply actions
I need to make a Greek Raccoon. What do you think, should I photoshop some Feta cheeze in there?
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
Ah, why the hell not
2009 Rays Baseball: Welp.....we'll try again in 2010
2009 FSU Football: Thanks for the memories, Bobby Bowden
by JMB on Dec 7, 2009 7:07 PM EST up reply actions
You could have it refusing to pay someone for an honest day's work
Not sure how to go about that.
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 7, 2009 7:07 PM EST up reply actions
Photoshop a baby lamb to highlight their love of gyros.
Officially now the head of the Lobstein bandwagon.
Everyone loves gyro's
I can almost forgive the centuries of boy-loving.
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 7, 2009 7:09 PM EST up reply actions
Better the boys than the succulent lambs
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 7, 2009 7:10 PM EST up reply actions
Should I seek help because I quivered and had my eye twitch when I read 'succulent lambs'?
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
Umm no
I’m no record in this thread as admitting to loving the sweet taste of them, not of having sex with them. Those that have had sex know this distinction.
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 7, 2009 7:21 PM EST up reply actions
RD is going into joke overload
Sign lady must die.
by EminenceFront on Dec 7, 2009 7:24 PM EST up reply actions
DIrect your strokes on the keyboard before you explode.
Officially now the head of the Lobstein bandwagon.
I got jokes and jokes
Spaghetti Spaghetti!
Sign lady must die.
by EminenceFront on Dec 7, 2009 7:25 PM EST up reply actions
I have every episode :)
Sign lady must die.
by EminenceFront on Dec 7, 2009 7:28 PM EST up reply actions
I've never made a Gyro, I would not be surprised if that is how they tenderize the baby lambs
Fuckin Greeks
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 7, 2009 7:29 PM EST up reply actions
Shit dude, no wonder gyros are slathered in mayo.
Officially now the head of the Lobstein bandwagon.
You got a problem with Mayo?
What, are you black now? Does everything have to have Tabasco sauce with it?
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
I like mayo, I just don't like my sandwiches to be soggy with it.
Officially now the head of the Lobstein bandwagon.
Well it should be cucumber sauce and not Mayo if they're doing it right.
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
Everyone does that, though
2009 Rays Baseball: Welp.....we'll try again in 2010
2009 FSU Football: Thanks for the memories, Bobby Bowden
by JMB on Dec 7, 2009 7:04 PM EST up reply actions
As I spell their wrong, wow, just wow.
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 7, 2009 7:05 PM EST up reply actions
Stop trying to rationalize everything with your relentless logic, RJ.
Sign lady must die.
by EminenceFront on Dec 7, 2009 7:22 PM EST up reply actions
Umm yeah
The smartest man in my chair has http://www.draysbay.com/2009/12/7/1190189/tampa-bay-rays-reportedly#26750649
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 7, 2009 7:22 PM EST up reply actions
(shhh I was referencing Futurama)
Sign lady must die.
by EminenceFront on Dec 7, 2009 7:23 PM EST up reply actions
we are goin to try to pay him with monopoly money
and convince him that has a better chance to be worth the paper it’s printed on compared to american currency after Obama continues to run our economy into the ground.
by raysfaninminnesota on Dec 7, 2009 7:24 PM EST up reply actions
Good golly guy, don't go throwing the politics grenade in this thread.
We already have two morons flaming each other.
by R.J. Anderson on Dec 7, 2009 7:25 PM EST up reply actions
You would've done better by referencing 'Bison Bucks' instead of the US dollar.
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
they are happy with the process, just not the results
It’s a calculated risk. Every move is. You just have to be willing to stake your career on it…if it’s worth it, then do it. If it’s not, then move on to something else. Because with a deal of this magnitute, this will be what you are remembered for…and more importantly, how it turns out.
by raysfaninminnesota on Dec 7, 2009 7:29 PM EST up reply actions
Buster_ESPN The Cardinals and Brad Penny have a letter of agreement, for a $7.5 million base and $1.5 in performances bonuses. Physical likely on Wed.
Duncan nets another one.
Officially now the head of the Lobstein bandwagon.
He wasn't as awful as they made it out to be
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 7, 2009 7:32 PM EST up reply actions
Money aside, I could see him coming in here as another Percy
Acting like a GD buffoon just because he’s seen and done it all. That’s not the kind of leadership we need.
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 7, 2009 7:38 PM EST up reply actions
Might as well hand him the Cy right now
Facing the Stros, Rats, Reds, and Cubs with Duncan guiding him.
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 7, 2009 7:32 PM EST up reply actions
Me @6: Ok, time to head to the gym
Me Now: I fucking hate you Roy Halladay.
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
HALLADAY'S HAREM IS HURTING THE RAYS
DRB fanpost when Halladay’s woods style affair comes to light
Officially now the head of the Lobstein bandwagon.
And when I first read it, I thought to myself I wouldnt think about it
because of the 5,000 to 1 odds it happens and now I can’t get the damn Doc off my mind.
If there is any truth to this, it gives me more hope that they will pay CC what he wants.
Give me a CC long term deal, please!
Pretty sure they've asked and that's the extent
Would be extremely shocked if anything else comes of it.
www.draysbay.com
by Tommy Rancel on Dec 7, 2009 8:34 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I am hoping that if they even considered him, they will lock CC up
Who do we want? Roy Halladay! When do we want him? NOW
FG adding xFIP is very exciting
Counting down the days to statcorner and FG merging it up, we can dream right?
Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla
My signature is fucking gay and I listen to rumors too much
Remember Roy Halladay, Cliff Lee and Victor Martinez that got us hopeful and nothing happened?
I need to talk about something else, Jake McGee for 2010 bullpen!
Who do we want? Roy Halladay! When do we want him? NOW
Homo
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
by Brickhaus on Dec 7, 2009 8:42 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
This is not a good idea at all.
I don’t like the shortsighted thinking here. I hope its just speculation.
Mira Sorvino...Paul Walker...T-Pain...Fall 2010...HEADSTONE MAFIA, A LOVE STORY OF REVENGE. "5/5 stars!!!" - DRB User "Andy Hellicksonstine"
They didn't actually offer this.
It’s source speculation.
by R.J. Anderson on Dec 7, 2009 8:47 PM EST up reply actions
Teams interested in Navi
Giants, Mariners, Rockies, Mets and Blue Jays
they all have some interesting pieces, I would want to find out what we have to add for Scott Downs
Who do we want? Roy Halladay! When do we want him? NOW
now dont be silly
why would you want that without Bumgarner?
Who do we want? Roy Halladay! When do we want him? NOW
They have an interest in the position of catcher
To assume that means Navi, is a reach. He is likely to be non-tendered. If they get gas money for him it would be a coup.
Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla
Rays 1 of 4 teams interested in Doumit
Unless we actually get Doc, Ryan Doumit would be nice target
Who do we want? Roy Halladay! When do we want him? NOW
Why would we trade 6 years of Davis
and BJ for 1 hear of potential, albeit likely, dominance?
Blah!
by thebaddancingraysfan on Dec 8, 2009 7:23 AM EST reply actions
We're kicking the tires on Doumit.
MLBRumorCentral:
Jays, Rays, M’s and Giants in on Ryan Doumit?
No surprise, asking price will probably be to high.
And this gem:
keithlaw:
He can barely walk – he shouldn’t be that hard to catch. RT @mlbtraderumors Pirates Intensify Pursuit Of Bobby Crosby
Tools Whore
A point that nobody has mentioned yet is that James Shields was Roy Halladay for stretches last year, but was
routinely let down by the offense. Doc could not have pitched any better than James and still would have taken a bunch of frustrating L’s & ND’s.
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 8, 2009 8:39 AM EST reply actions
Huh what?
What games would that be? I see no CGs. I don’t see any CGSO. Last year Halladay had 9 and 4. Halladay was a top 5 pitcher last year (and the year before and the year before), and Shields wasn’t in the top 20. Come on, I mean Shields is a nice pitcher but he’s nowhere close to Halladay.
I'm putting a workbook together for him right now, but how many games did the Rays put up 0 or 1 run for James?
How many times did he get yanked with a lead, only to see the bullpen give it away. Granted in those instances, if he goes all 9 it’s a W, but if your team puts up a 0 you cannot win.
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 8, 2009 9:12 AM EST up reply actions
OK so he had poor run support.
He also had a +4 FIP. Halladay’s FIP was 3.06. Halladay was more than 3 wins better.
The normalized offense workbook has him at 23.01 wins if he had our normalized offense behind him (Halladay)
Shields would have hypothetically had 19.41 wins if our offense was normalized. So yes, if we scored for both these guys the way they should have scored then Halladay is about 3.5 wins better. As we know, the offense didn’t perform at it’s normal pace for James and he would up with 11 “official” wins.
Looking at James starts, our offense gave opposition pitchers a 4.59 FIP, but only a .321 wOBA. I’ve got a correlation of .56 between FIP and Runs and a correlation of .78 between wOBA and Runs, for what that is worth. We scored at a mean of 4.64 , a median of 4, and a mode of 3 in his starts. James actual FIP (not game-to-game FIP) was 4.07, while Roy’s was 3.11. Yes, Roy is a marginally better pitcher, but the Rays scored 3 or fewer runs in 50% of Jamie’s starts.
My point was that James pitched mostly good for a long stretch (check out starts 6-20, good enough to win 80% of those, but was lucky to win half). Maybe Doc gives us just enough to win some of those closies, but if you don’t score you can’t win, it doesn’t matter who’s on the mound.
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 8, 2009 10:11 AM EST up reply actions
I'm not arguing that he didn't recieve poor run support.
To call Halladay “marginally better” is the part I disagree with. Halladay is MUCH better than Shields. A run difference in FIP is massive. Is Shields “marginally better” than Joe Saunders?
Last year, sure, but can you honestly project them forward to be that far apart?
James had his worst season of the last 3, while Doc had, arguably, the best season of his life.
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 8, 2009 10:28 AM EST up reply actions
If I had to guess he was pulled with the lead far fewer times than when he coughed up the lead the inning after they went ahead.
I'm a Brett Favre honk so FUCK YOU!
by PriceMultiCyYoungs on Dec 8, 2009 9:29 AM EST up reply actions
Don't be a homer
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
10th in AL xFIP among starters last year, of course he will always look better when you lower his HR-rate, but last year was his worst of the last 3
http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=sta&lg=al&qual=y&type=1&season=2009&month=0
I don’t think he gets enough respect around here. It’s not like 4 WAR pitchers that don’t miss starts grow on trees.
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 8, 2009 12:19 PM EST up reply actions
Halladay's B-Ref sponsor
Olaf Hong, to El Grande sponsor(s) this page.
At 40, El Grande was king. His advice to youth everywhere: remember Steve Dalkowski; Never get your finger stuck in a bottle; You can’t jack a deer from the Bookmobile. El Grande’s one question: Alex Rios, special player?
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 8, 2009 8:45 AM EST reply actions
That's the Jays not Halladay, my b
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 8, 2009 8:45 AM EST up reply actions
So Rafeal Soriano accepts arb.
His arb. figure will probably be b/w $6-7 mill. for one year. The Braves have to unload him. Anybody interested? I wonder what it would take.
Salary seems high for us, no?
I'm a Brett Favre honk so FUCK YOU!
by PriceMultiCyYoungs on Dec 8, 2009 9:29 AM EST up reply actions
Well, what's to keep him from accepting arb next year too?
Say he has the same year in 2010 as he did in 2009, then we’re looking at paying him 8-9 mil? No chance we can do that.
I'm a Brett Favre honk so FUCK YOU!
by PriceMultiCyYoungs on Dec 8, 2009 9:46 AM EST up reply actions
The Braves didn't see this coming at all.
Last I heard they were 100% sure both of their guys were going.
by R.J. Anderson on Dec 8, 2009 9:52 AM EST up reply actions
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