Tampa Bay Rays News and Rumors for December 8th: Carl Crawford for Carlos Quentin Swap Discussed, Brian Shouse Rejects Arbitration, Rays Offered Bobby Abreu Two Years, Interest in Matt Capps, and More
by R.J. Anderson on Dec 8, 2009 11:49 AM EST
362 comments
Carl Crawford
This one was posted in the previous thread, but for those who missed it:
Sources with Tampa Bay and the Sox said the sides had talked several times this offseason, not only checking out closer Bobby Jenks and his availability in a deal, but more specifically a trade that would have sent Carlos Quentin to the Rays for Carl Crawford.
The author also quotes White Sox manager Ozzie Guillen on such rumors, who says:
''A lot of people know what the White Sox need because Kenny talks to so many teams,'' Guillen said. ''Obviously, we need a leadoff hitter, left fielder, we're looking for that. But right now Carlos is prepared to have a pretty good year. The last 10 games of the season, he was the Carlos we expected.
Not to let the proverbial cat out of the bag, but Jenks fits the a similar profile of Kevin Gregg, Matt Lindstrom, and Matt Capps. Each is an end-game reliever coming off a rocky season with longball issues. Salary issues are probably going to prevent Jenks from ever donning a Rays cap, he's due at least $5.6M next season.
Brian Shouse
Good news here. Shouse declined arbitration, which means if/when he signs with another team, the Rays will receive an additional draft choice.
Milton Bradley/Pat Burrell
Nothing's changed. Here's the latest Sun Times piece to prove it.
Matt Lindstrom
A quick update on everybody's favorite Marlin reliever nowadays:
The Texas Rangers and, to a lesser degree, the Tampa Bay Rays are among teams inquiring about the Marlins' hard-throwing right-hander — even though Lindstrom had an inconsistent season.
Bobby Abreu
USA Today has a somewhat interesting note about the contract offer the Rays made last year to Abreu:
Two years ago, the Yankees gave Jorge Posada, a catcher who had turned 36 on Aug. 17, a four-year, $52 million contract. A year later, they let outfielder Bobby Abreu, then 34, walk away after he posted at least 100 RBI for the sixth season in a row.
Abreu spent most of the winter waiting for a big payday. There were plenty of offers, with 10 teams expressing interest, agent Peter Greenberg says, yet only the Tampa Bay Rays offered more than a one-year deal.
The Rays also offered more money than he wound up signing for.
Matt Capps
From the Post-Gazette:
Two sources confirmed yesterday that the Pirates have threatened to non-tender Capps, although that tends to be a negotiating tactic.
[...]
Several teams have asked the Pirates about Capps, including the Texas Rangers and Tampa Bay Rays.
---
More to come.
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Really tired of Bradley-Burrell reports in the press that say nothing different from a month ago
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Tis
Why do you kill threads????
by Some other guy who does not care on Dec 8, 2009 11:56 AM EST up reply actions
Ugh....
Maybe it was because he wanted to play outfield….but god it would have been nicer to have him than PtB
by staplemaniac on Dec 8, 2009 11:56 AM EST up reply actions
Didn't we offer him the PtB contract?
the ghost of stokes, camp, lugo strikes TB-sept 2009
by CubFanRaysaddict on Dec 8, 2009 12:03 PM EST up reply actions
Ozzie is priceless
The last 10 games of the season, he was the Carlos we expected.
WOOOOOOOOO WORLD SERIES HERE WE COME!!!!!!!!!!
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 8, 2009 11:58 AM EST reply actions
Abreu wanted to play the field and that wasn't something we wanted to let him do
Sounds like it cost him some ducats.
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 8, 2009 11:58 AM EST reply actions
Short-term anyway
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
Brandon Lyon Anyone?
Why do you kill threads????
by Some other guy who does not care on Dec 8, 2009 11:59 AM EST reply actions
Or Justin Duscherer?
Why do you kill threads????
by Some other guy who does not care on Dec 8, 2009 12:02 PM EST up reply actions
Point
Why do you kill threads????
by Some other guy who does not care on Dec 8, 2009 12:04 PM EST up reply actions
Do we really need another good not great starter?
Aren’t their better ways to drop that cash?
Officially now the head of the Lobstein bandwagon.
Have you heard of the bullpen before?
Also, are you really whining about adding another good pitcher?
by R.J. Anderson on Dec 8, 2009 12:06 PM EST up reply actions
Duscherererererer doesn't want to go in the pen
He wants to start, and he feels starting fits his skill set far better.
Can we get robots for umpires and a computer to make in game strategy decisions? I'm sick of inconsistently bad umpiring and Joe's pitiful in game management. Oh and Navi (and BJ) need some PED's. BenZo, Bartlett, and Pena do not.
Convert him to a reliever.
Why do you kill threads????
by Some other guy who does not care on Dec 8, 2009 12:06 PM EST up reply actions
OT, but humor me.
Javier Vazquez for Fielder. Maybe Freeman and another prospect thrown in. Thoughts? What about Soriano and Vazquez? The Brewers would pick up 4 picks this offseason along with the year of both guys.
Last I heard the Brewers are still holding hope to lock the fat man up long-term.
I'm a Brett Favre honk so FUCK YOU!
by PriceMultiCyYoungs on Dec 8, 2009 12:08 PM EST up reply actions
I'm not sure; fighting with a teammate in the dugout? Shooting over to the Dodgers locker room to take care of some business? These are things Milton Bradley hasn't done that Prince Fielder has.
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
Yeah but Prince is fat and light-skinned.
by R.J. Anderson on Dec 8, 2009 12:14 PM EST up reply actions
Seriously though, I'm not a fan of players who can't leave it on the field.
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
kericr will fight the next man that mentions fighting
Fucking Razor Ramon needs to cut back on the machismo shakes.
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 8, 2009 12:28 PM EST up reply actions
Is Scott Hall dead?
I feel like he is for some reason.
I'm a Brett Favre honk so FUCK YOU!
by PriceMultiCyYoungs on Dec 8, 2009 12:29 PM EST up reply actions
Razor Ramon was the fucking shit.
Funny story about the gimmick too. When Scott Hall pitched it to Vince McMahon, McMahon thought the he was some kind of omega genius because of how creative it was; he had never seen Scarface.
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
He's also your idol
Scott Hall was the only man to emerge from your ghetto and make something of himself.
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 8, 2009 12:33 PM EST up reply actions
He was playing a Cuban. I'm clearly stereotyping Puerto Ricans, and occasionally Mexicans.
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
I was flipping through the channels last night and saw Mark Cuban reffing a match on Raw.
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 8, 2009 1:15 PM EST up reply actions
The Quentin-Crawford swap would've been interesting
Not going to get into hardcore analysis since the talks look dead, but 4 years of Quentin for 1 of Crawford is definitely worth a discussion. Rays would be giving up speed and defense for greater offensive potential. I think flanking Quentin with a CF’er of Upton’s caliber would help his poor defense, and his batted ball numbers suggest he’s due for regression from a poor 2009. He should also be 100% after the dreaded wrist injury for a power hitter. Definitely would’ve went back and forth, but I make that deal.
www.draysbay.com
by Tommy Rancel on Dec 8, 2009 12:10 PM EST via mobile reply actions
The health issues are far, far more concerning than defense.
by R.J. Anderson on Dec 8, 2009 12:15 PM EST up reply actions
That's why we shell out a check to Doc Andrews to be the Med. Director
www.draysbay.com
by Tommy Rancel on Dec 8, 2009 12:17 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
It was the Gulf Breeze that was causing his illness
Who could have known?
by staplemaniac on Dec 8, 2009 12:21 PM EST up reply actions
What could have been
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 8, 2009 12:24 PM EST up reply actions
I think Boston ended up paying him like 2M for his performance
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
You forgot to put performance in quotation marks
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 8, 2009 12:26 PM EST up reply actions
It was a donkey show. I don't think I need to add any technicalities to it.
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
I think he would be a great guy to have coaching somewhere in a farm system
Would do wonders for prospect humility and could give advice like, “you should swing harder.” Worked for Zobot.
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 8, 2009 12:34 PM EST up reply actions
"You should swing harder. I'd show you but --ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ"
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
Where's your raccoon army?
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 8, 2009 12:36 PM EST up reply actions
Also, reminds me of Abe Simpson
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 8, 2009 12:36 PM EST up reply actions
.
Rocco 2006
Rocco 2009
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 8, 2009 12:39 PM EST up reply actions
He's the last one left. Mr. Burns is going to kill him.
Officially now the head of the Lobstein bandwagon.
The Hellfish are not to be spoken of in public!
Sign lady must die.
by EminenceFront on Dec 8, 2009 12:40 PM EST up reply actions
In looking at the names the Rays supposedly have an interest in,
it seems they are willing to sacrifice a little bit of defense in order to get greater power production from the outfield spots.
They're looking to get good players.
If power is undervalued, then they’ll go for that. When defense was undervalued, they went for that. It’s a matter of playing the market and getting good players for fewer dollars (or assets in terms of players) then they’re really worth.
by R.J. Anderson on Dec 8, 2009 12:19 PM EST up reply actions
His RF UZR is good, with only a slightly smaller sample size than his LF
Can we assume he is about a 0 in the corners?
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Why?
Crawford’s contract is up at the end of the season, but they own Quentin for 4 years including ’10. That seems like a fair trade to me, when you consider the picks the White Sox would get.
by staplemaniac on Dec 8, 2009 12:21 PM EST up reply actions
Reports said there were talks, but they're all but dead
So a deal isn’t likely.
As for Quentin’s defensive value if its a 0<-5 true talent, I think Upton or Jennings would help instead of CF of the Day he’s had in Chi. Not sure of the impact on CF to a COF, but Upton can get to a lot of balls out of his zone.
www.draysbay.com
by Tommy Rancel on Dec 8, 2009 12:22 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
If there were to actually happen...
Why not try to move PTB, DH Carlos and put Joyce in LF, Gabes in RF again?
I'm a Brett Favre honk so FUCK YOU!
by PriceMultiCyYoungs on Dec 8, 2009 12:23 PM EST up reply actions
*this were...
I'm a Brett Favre honk so FUCK YOU!
by PriceMultiCyYoungs on Dec 8, 2009 12:24 PM EST up reply actions
Because we all hate Gross when Gross != Clutch
He had zero clutch all of last year. We can’t have average players on this team.
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
My sarcasm alarm is not sure if it wants to go off or not...
I'm a Brett Favre honk so FUCK YOU!
by PriceMultiCyYoungs on Dec 8, 2009 12:25 PM EST up reply actions
It's a statement of fact; which makes it rediculous.
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
Could also do that, but I'd see if he could play the field first
He only has 2 years of data. Can’t really make a fair judgement off of that.
www.draysbay.com
by Tommy Rancel on Dec 8, 2009 12:27 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
That's your job
You’re the ones with scouting pals.
www.draysbay.com
by Tommy Rancel on Dec 8, 2009 12:34 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
It would seem to be a fair deal on face value, I still like John Ely as a guy that won't be an ace, but could fill out a rotation
I want Matt Thornton more than any other player in the Majors.
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 8, 2009 12:23 PM EST up reply actions
SI_JonHeyman latest 3-way looks something like this: yanks get granderson; dbacks e-jax, i.kennedy; tigers scherzer, schlereth, a-jax, coke.
Officially now the head of the Lobstein bandwagon.
Why does AZ do this?
Looks bad for them, IMO.
I'm a Brett Favre honk so FUCK YOU!
by PriceMultiCyYoungs on Dec 8, 2009 12:29 PM EST up reply actions
Payroll dump and I'd rather have Scherzer than Edwin.
I'm a Brett Favre honk so FUCK YOU!
by PriceMultiCyYoungs on Dec 8, 2009 12:31 PM EST up reply actions
You're getting Scherzer and Austin for Granderson and Edwin.
Officially now the head of the Lobstein bandwagon.
Granderson needs a RH caddy.
I’m probably okay with that for them, without looking at the numbers. Schlereth has potential too, IIRC.
I'm a Brett Favre honk so FUCK YOU!
by PriceMultiCyYoungs on Dec 8, 2009 12:33 PM EST up reply actions
Just to make sure I'm not missing this:
Yankees get Granderson, give up a middle reliever?
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
He's pretty good IIRC?
I keep saying ‘if the Yankees were smart, they’d stop trading away all their good prospects’, but here they go again.
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
As a Yankee, or as a player coming out of the Yankee farm system?
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
Nick Johnson has had a pretty decent career
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 8, 2009 12:41 PM EST up reply actions
Meh
I mean they got a year of Vazquez which they turned into Randy for him. He hasn’t been that good.
...
As a Yankee, or as a player coming out of the Yankee farm system?
You never specified. I assumed you meant anyone coming out of their farm system.
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
Ahhh I didn't see that.
IMy post was in response to “I keep saying ‘if the Yankees were smart, they’d stop trading away all their good prospects’, but here they go again.” So it should be fairly evident I meant that they’ve traded.
Oh OK.
Yeah I can’t immediately recall anyone off the top of my head that they’ve traded away in the last few years that has amounted to anything.
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
Me either.
Navarro? no
Johnson? not really
Who knows who else. I was more asking because I couldn’t come up with any. The real question is what they’ve missed out on in the draft b/c of FA.
Does Soriano count?
I'm a Brett Favre honk so FUCK YOU!
by PriceMultiCyYoungs on Dec 8, 2009 1:13 PM EST up reply actions
Not really.
I’d say A-Rod>>>>Soriano. I mean more like “have they been bitten by trading away prospects like we all hope they will whenever these trades are discussed?”
Christian Guzman has had a nice career
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 8, 2009 1:19 PM EST up reply actions
Mike Lowell has had a pretty good career
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 8, 2009 1:20 PM EST up reply actions
YOU TRADED JAY BUHNER FOR KEN PHELPS!!!??!
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 8, 2009 1:21 PM EST up reply actions
Who else was in that trade for Knobloch?
A pretty good pitcher, IIRC. No?
I'm a Brett Favre honk so FUCK YOU!
by PriceMultiCyYoungs on Dec 8, 2009 1:21 PM EST up reply actions
I can't see the D-Backs moving Scherzer.
by R.J. Anderson on Dec 8, 2009 12:34 PM EST up reply actions
Maybe if Parker didn't just have TJ?
I'm a Brett Favre honk so FUCK YOU!
by PriceMultiCyYoungs on Dec 8, 2009 12:35 PM EST up reply actions
11:24am: More from Olney - the D'Backs are aiming to get Edwin Jackson and Kennedy in the deal. Olney speaks of "growing confidence on at least two of the sides" involved, and his sources have the odds of a deal in the 20-30% range.
What the fuck
Officially now the head of the Lobstein bandwagon.
So does this mean they don't have faith in CY anymore? Or just move him to the corner?
I'm a Brett Favre honk so FUCK YOU!
by PriceMultiCyYoungs on Dec 8, 2009 12:43 PM EST up reply actions
Errr, nevermind. Was thinking Jackson to AZ. My fault.
I'm a Brett Favre honk so FUCK YOU!
by PriceMultiCyYoungs on Dec 8, 2009 12:45 PM EST up reply actions
This is boring
Once again the headlines are dominated by the Yankees and even bit players are not moving. Somebody introduce some mescaline to these talks.
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 8, 2009 12:55 PM EST reply actions
i hate it
mlb.com winter meetings video, they keep talking about the Yankees and Red Sox
and that is not the CC update I was hoping for
Who do we want? Roy Halladay! When do we want him? NOW
Heyman's Column
One extreme longshot team in the Halladay derby is the Rays, who kicked tires with the Blue Jays about their ace. A person familiar with the talks said it’s “extremely unlikely” that Halladay ends up in Tampa Bay.
Officially now the head of the Lobstein bandwagon.
the rumor is just gonna make him going to NY/BOS more annoying
unless we can dump PTB and then some, we cant afford him :(
Who do we want? Roy Halladay! When do we want him? NOW
Branderson is untouchable
I wanna dump KK on someone
Who do we want? Roy Halladay! When do we want him? NOW
nyp_joelsherman Med records being exchanged on Granderson deal. Yanks working thru final matters
Here we go
Officially now the head of the Lobstein bandwagon.
Quintin for Crawford would be a stupid trade.
Quintin hit .236 last year. CC would be gift to the white sox for the price of Quintin.
Blah!
by thebaddancingraysfan on Dec 8, 2009 1:42 PM EST reply actions
That's some nice analysis there.
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 8, 2009 1:43 PM EST up reply actions
What can I say.
WAMMY! It’s my catch phrase.
Blah!
by thebaddancingraysfan on Dec 8, 2009 1:46 PM EST up reply actions
I mean, Two years ago, he had a very nice season.
This year he can back to earth. this would be a very lop-sided trade. I personally think that this story has hardly any legs to it. It’s just smoke.
Blah!
by thebaddancingraysfan on Dec 8, 2009 1:49 PM EST up reply actions
Heyman has the trade apparently official
SI_JonHeyman
yanks to get granderson, e. jackson, i. kennedy to dbacks, scherzer, schlereth, a. jax, coke to tigers.
Vroom vroom party starter
www.raysprospects.com
I don't trust anything that man writes.
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 8, 2009 1:51 PM EST up reply actions
Tigers and Yankees did well
D’backs overpaid way too much
Who do we want? Roy Halladay! When do we want him? NOW
Reminds me of that poem about my kindom for a nail
If Maggs had missed more games this move might be a moot point.
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 8, 2009 2:00 PM EST up reply actions
nyp_joelsherman (eams agree to players in trade. only ok on med reports stay in way of granderson to yanks
Officially now the head of the Lobstein bandwagon.
Only thing that sucks is that we only got Joyce for Jackson
Seems like the Tigers are flipping him for quite a bit more.
Can we get robots for umpires and a computer to make in game strategy decisions? I'm sick of inconsistently bad umpiring and Joe's pitiful in game management. Oh and Navi (and BJ) need some PED's. BenZo, Bartlett, and Pena do not.
They're also giving up 3 reasonably inexpensive years of a good CF
We only gave up an arb-eligible starter.
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 8, 2009 2:01 PM EST up reply actions
great haul for the tigers
Vikings 4 the superbowl
Not surprising he was an All Star
Of course he would not have been had he stayed in the ALE or had his 2nd half first.
Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla
Now my sarcasm alarm knows what to do.
I'm a Brett Favre honk so FUCK YOU!
by PriceMultiCyYoungs on Dec 8, 2009 2:04 PM EST up reply actions
He isn't
But what would have Granderson have gotten? Perhaps just Scherzer & Coke?
Which means Ejax is worth around an Austin Jackson. I’d rather him than Joyce…But each his own.
Can we get robots for umpires and a computer to make in game strategy decisions? I'm sick of inconsistently bad umpiring and Joe's pitiful in game management. Oh and Navi (and BJ) need some PED's. BenZo, Bartlett, and Pena do not.
Yes. Edwin Jackson would net Austin Jackson.
Silly Tigers. They said “Here, have Granderson too!”
by R.J. Anderson on Dec 8, 2009 2:06 PM EST up reply actions
You do know they are getting Scherzer as well...?
Can we get robots for umpires and a computer to make in game strategy decisions? I'm sick of inconsistently bad umpiring and Joe's pitiful in game management. Oh and Navi (and BJ) need some PED's. BenZo, Bartlett, and Pena do not.
"Which means Ejax is worth around an Austin Jackson. I’d rather him than Joyce…But each his own."
by R.J. Anderson on Dec 8, 2009 2:07 PM EST up reply actions
"Silly Tigers. They said "Here, have Granderson too!""
Can we get robots for umpires and a computer to make in game strategy decisions? I'm sick of inconsistently bad umpiring and Joe's pitiful in game management. Oh and Navi (and BJ) need some PED's. BenZo, Bartlett, and Pena do not.
About now is when he starts taking shots at the site.
by R.J. Anderson on Dec 8, 2009 2:09 PM EST up reply actions
Matthan is more of a polemicist than a troll
I’d be interested to hear what he thinks.
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 8, 2009 2:11 PM EST up reply actions
He just somehow forgot the Tigers got more pieces than just Jackson
I was just reminding him.
Can we get robots for umpires and a computer to make in game strategy decisions? I'm sick of inconsistently bad umpiring and Joe's pitiful in game management. Oh and Navi (and BJ) need some PED's. BenZo, Bartlett, and Pena do not.
Do you ever make useful comments about baseball?
The only time you ever say anything is when RJ is an argument and you come running to his defense. I think he can take care of himself, chief.
How far off is simply a..
Scherzer & Coke for Granderson deal?
Jackson & Coke for Granderson deal?
If any of those deals are remotely close, then you by default you’d have to say Ejax is close to the value of Jackson or Scherzer.
Can we get robots for umpires and a computer to make in game strategy decisions? I'm sick of inconsistently bad umpiring and Joe's pitiful in game management. Oh and Navi (and BJ) need some PED's. BenZo, Bartlett, and Pena do not.
Yes. Edwin Jackson, the guy with one good half of pitching in four years, is worth a top flight CF prospect.
You are absolutely right. I bow to you.
by R.J. Anderson on Dec 8, 2009 2:11 PM EST up reply actions
So answer the question
How far off is…
Scherzer & Coke for Granderson deal?
Jackson & Coke for Granderson deal?
Can we get robots for umpires and a computer to make in game strategy decisions? I'm sick of inconsistently bad umpiring and Joe's pitiful in game management. Oh and Navi (and BJ) need some PED's. BenZo, Bartlett, and Pena do not.
Scherzer is cheaper and younger and uh, better.
by R.J. Anderson on Dec 8, 2009 2:14 PM EST up reply actions
Again answer the question...
How far off is…
Scherzer & Coke for Granderson deal?
Jackson & Coke for Granderson deal?
I’m just trying to bring logic to the table. If either of those deals are close, then you have to say that Ejax is close to value to one of those players. It is basic logic.
Can we get robots for umpires and a computer to make in game strategy decisions? I'm sick of inconsistently bad umpiring and Joe's pitiful in game management. Oh and Navi (and BJ) need some PED's. BenZo, Bartlett, and Pena do not.
Either way there is no major reason to rehash Ejax
We all know his value is significantly higher now than what it was previously. It is what it is. Hopefully Joyce pans out.
Can we get robots for umpires and a computer to make in game strategy decisions? I'm sick of inconsistently bad umpiring and Joe's pitiful in game management. Oh and Navi (and BJ) need some PED's. BenZo, Bartlett, and Pena do not.
There is a significant disconnect between how good he is and his market value
I’m not saying he is a great player, or that he is even good. Just that his market value is higher.
Can we get robots for umpires and a computer to make in game strategy decisions? I'm sick of inconsistently bad umpiring and Joe's pitiful in game management. Oh and Navi (and BJ) need some PED's. BenZo, Bartlett, and Pena do not.
You said he was a perennial Cy Young contender two months into the season.
by R.J. Anderson on Dec 8, 2009 2:20 PM EST up reply actions
link or it didn't happen.
I'm a Brett Favre honk so FUCK YOU!
by PriceMultiCyYoungs on Dec 8, 2009 2:21 PM EST up reply actions
I never used the word perennial...
And he was in fact a Cy Young candidate for the bulk of the season. That still doesn’t mean he is a great pitcher. The award is flawed and focuses on perception. Perception doesn’t equal reality.
Can we get robots for umpires and a computer to make in game strategy decisions? I'm sick of inconsistently bad umpiring and Joe's pitiful in game management. Oh and Navi (and BJ) need some PED's. BenZo, Bartlett, and Pena do not.
Okay:
On a serious note it does look like Edwin is getting lucky with his K’s and Walks this year
But on the flip side he was unlucky last year with those two metrics.
Factor in that his stuff is a bit better, and he is throwing a better combination of his pitches and you get better results too. That leads me to believe that this is closer to his future performance than say last year. This is probably his peak though.
Is he a Cy Young contender year in and year out? No
But there is a good shot he can be a top 10 AL starter for the next 5 years.
http://www.draysbay.com/2009/7/21/956137/who-are-you-and-what-have-you-done#18448779
Top 10 AL starter for the next 5 years != Cy Young contender?
by matthan on Jul 21, 2009
by R.J. Anderson on Dec 8, 2009 2:23 PM EST up reply actions
This was supposed to be my part of the comment:
Top 10 AL starter for the next 5 years != Cy Young contender?
by R.J. Anderson on Dec 8, 2009 2:23 PM EST up reply actions
I was about to come to your defense here, but then you shot yourself in the foot with a 'bulk of the season' comment.
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
Again it is about perception
Jackson had a boatload of wins and a decent ERA for a lot of the season. That gets you into the Cy Young talk regardless of how good you are.
Can we get robots for umpires and a computer to make in game strategy decisions? I'm sick of inconsistently bad umpiring and Joe's pitiful in game management. Oh and Navi (and BJ) need some PED's. BenZo, Bartlett, and Pena do not.
Results based analysis?
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 8, 2009 2:28 PM EST up reply actions
Of course it is
That is how every single end of the year award is given out.
I’m not saying Jackson is a great pitcher because he was in the Cy Young talk last year. If anything I’m saying that is why the award is flawed.
Can we get robots for umpires and a computer to make in game strategy decisions? I'm sick of inconsistently bad umpiring and Joe's pitiful in game management. Oh and Navi (and BJ) need some PED's. BenZo, Bartlett, and Pena do not.
I’m not saying Jackson is a great pitcher because he was in the Cy Young talk last year. If anything I’m saying that is why the award is flawed.
Stop talking about this. It’s irrelevant to the discussion.
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
Your boy RJ brought it up
Can we get robots for umpires and a computer to make in game strategy decisions? I'm sick of inconsistently bad umpiring and Joe's pitiful in game management. Oh and Navi (and BJ) need some PED's. BenZo, Bartlett, and Pena do not.
I swear to Christ, the next time someone tells me that someone on this site is 'My Boy', permaban.
Not fucking kidding.
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
Lee Caz is one of my mortal enemies.
I have no “boys”. I am but a lone reed.
Signature space available for rent - Got to pay the bills somehow
Getting blown
by the wind?
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 8, 2009 2:36 PM EST up reply actions
If RJ is kericr's boy, and Buc Wild is RJ's boy
Does that make kericr jealous of Buc Wild?
Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla
...
watch your language. Your boy over here would have had to do the same post. I just got the phone as its my blog now. —-Some dirty Greek piece of crap
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
Note
I had nothing to do with this
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 8, 2009 2:35 PM EST up reply actions
He wasn't in the Cy Young talk.
He regressed. 13 W 3.62 ERA isn’t Cy Young worthy. It’s simple baseball knowledge. Get with it.
by R.J. Anderson on Dec 8, 2009 2:30 PM EST up reply actions
I'm assuming you didn't watch any baseball analysts around mid-season then?
Can we get robots for umpires and a computer to make in game strategy decisions? I'm sick of inconsistently bad umpiring and Joe's pitiful in game management. Oh and Navi (and BJ) need some PED's. BenZo, Bartlett, and Pena do not.
Perhaps you're unaware, sir, but Edwin's Average Run Support Against was not amongst the league leaders.
It’s a long season. Jackson choked.
by R.J. Anderson on Dec 8, 2009 2:32 PM EST up reply actions
So?
Nobody here is saying Jackson is a great pitcher, that he should have won the Cy Young, or that his actual value is anything great.
Ive been saying, repeatedly, that his market value is up due to the perception of his 2009; especially the 1st half of 2009.
That does not mean that he is a great valuable pitcher.
Can we get robots for umpires and a computer to make in game strategy decisions? I'm sick of inconsistently bad umpiring and Joe's pitiful in game management. Oh and Navi (and BJ) need some PED's. BenZo, Bartlett, and Pena do not.
You do realize what you're saying is
“Teams focus more on the first half than the second half”
That’s stupid. If anything, it’s the other way around, especially given his history.
by R.J. Anderson on Dec 8, 2009 2:39 PM EST up reply actions
You're also assuming teams are valuing him on ERA and W-L
Maybe a few teams, but most aren’t.
by R.J. Anderson on Dec 8, 2009 2:39 PM EST up reply actions
DING DING DING
And we have a winner.
All it takes is 1 stupid GM that values the wrong things.
Can we get robots for umpires and a computer to make in game strategy decisions? I'm sick of inconsistently bad umpiring and Joe's pitiful in game management. Oh and Navi (and BJ) need some PED's. BenZo, Bartlett, and Pena do not.
DING DING DING
Jackson’s FIP and tRA were also down. Maybe, they were looking at those?
by R.J. Anderson on Dec 8, 2009 2:43 PM EST up reply actions
I'm saying that based on his w/l record, his era, and the publicity he got will cause at least 1 team to value him far more than what his real worth is.
Especially compared to 2008.
Can we get robots for umpires and a computer to make in game strategy decisions? I'm sick of inconsistently bad umpiring and Joe's pitiful in game management. Oh and Navi (and BJ) need some PED's. BenZo, Bartlett, and Pena do not.
How about he actually did pitch better in 2009.
By stuff that matters.
by R.J. Anderson on Dec 8, 2009 2:42 PM EST up reply actions
Without any sarcasm or animosity
can I just say its nice to have you back. I’ve missed these “debates” the last few months
Signature space available for rent - Got to pay the bills somehow
Will you outline your argument please?
It seems to me you’re saying that he’s overvalued because he was in the CY talks at midseason. If that’s it let me know, so I can stop reading your posts.
Jacksons market value right now is higher than it was previously
This is because of his performance in 2009.
I’m not saying he is better, worse, or as good as he was ni 2008. That is irrelevant to the discussion.
I’m talking about market value. Last year he was worth Joyce…this year he is worth….? What will the most retarded GM in the league give up for Edwin Jackson in 2009?
Can we get robots for umpires and a computer to make in game strategy decisions? I'm sick of inconsistently bad umpiring and Joe's pitiful in game management. Oh and Navi (and BJ) need some PED's. BenZo, Bartlett, and Pena do not.
I'm not sure his value is that much higher.
Remember along with his first half success he also used up a year of arb. He may have a higher perceived value in a vaccuum, but his actual value is lower.
Actual value != Perceived value
You’re all right, but you’re not alright.
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 8, 2009 2:44 PM EST up reply actions
I agree with that
I think he is maybe a slightly better pitcher, but now is more costly. If I was a GM I’d give up around the same as I would have given up last year.
Which if I was a GM I wouldn’t have given up a Joyce or a Scherzer for Jackson…this year or last.
But the key is market value. The Rays focus on market inefficiencies. Trading a player that has a higher market value than real value is one of the only ways the Rays can contend.
Can we get robots for umpires and a computer to make in game strategy decisions? I'm sick of inconsistently bad umpiring and Joe's pitiful in game management. Oh and Navi (and BJ) need some PED's. BenZo, Bartlett, and Pena do not.
I don't believe that last paragraph.
If that were true people would write a book on it or something.
by R.J. Anderson on Dec 8, 2009 2:46 PM EST up reply actions
It seems that some of you folks lose focus of that sometimes
All I’ve been saying this entire time has been that it sucks that the market inefficiency grew wider the year after we traded Jackson. Based on many of your responses it sure seemed like you disagreed with that statement.
Can we get robots for umpires and a computer to make in game strategy decisions? I'm sick of inconsistently bad umpiring and Joe's pitiful in game management. Oh and Navi (and BJ) need some PED's. BenZo, Bartlett, and Pena do not.
You're forgetting to factor in the
2M in savings we had for the year, Niemann put up comparable numbers as a 3.
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 8, 2009 2:56 PM EST up reply actions
The issue is I think you're undervaluing the other assets.
Jackson didn’t fetch A. Jackson or Scherzer. There were a bunch of other moving parts.
IMHO we are all undervaluing the mv of Granderson
He fetched Jackson, Kennedy, and Coke. His real value is a fair bit less than that IMO.
Can we get robots for umpires and a computer to make in game strategy decisions? I'm sick of inconsistently bad umpiring and Joe's pitiful in game management. Oh and Navi (and BJ) need some PED's. BenZo, Bartlett, and Pena do not.
Not sure I agree.
I think his MV is pretty high and should be. He’s a 4-5 WAR player making the following: $5.5M, 11:$8.25M, 12:$10M, 13:$13M club option ($2M buyout). That’s pretty valuable right there.
All things equal one would expect ERA and prob wins to be lower outside ALE
So this will not be the last time perception of an ex-Ray changes. Holding on another year would not make a difference.
Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla
And he shouldn't have gotten any votes
Can we get robots for umpires and a computer to make in game strategy decisions? I'm sick of inconsistently bad umpiring and Joe's pitiful in game management. Oh and Navi (and BJ) need some PED's. BenZo, Bartlett, and Pena do not.
So you guys are really defending how the voters of the MVP, Cy Young, etc pick their winners?
I could have sworn many of you disapproved of what they deemed important.
Can we get robots for umpires and a computer to make in game strategy decisions? I'm sick of inconsistently bad umpiring and Joe's pitiful in game management. Oh and Navi (and BJ) need some PED's. BenZo, Bartlett, and Pena do not.
I hope you aren't lumping me in with those martians you didn't even
interpret my 3 word sentence correctly.
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 8, 2009 2:32 PM EST up reply actions
By value I mean market value
Not the value that an intelligent team would assign to him
Can we get robots for umpires and a computer to make in game strategy decisions? I'm sick of inconsistently bad umpiring and Joe's pitiful in game management. Oh and Navi (and BJ) need some PED's. BenZo, Bartlett, and Pena do not.
i too would rather have Austin Jackson
detroit won this trade, they get a potential top of the line starter in Scherzer, a Top Prospect in Jackson, and 2 pretty good leftys for the bullpen
Vikings 4 the superbowl
I don't think 5 minutes after the trade has been consummated anyone is in a position to judge who won.
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 8, 2009 2:08 PM EST up reply actions
Kennedy immediately steps in at 4 for the next 6 years
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 8, 2009 2:10 PM EST up reply actions
We know, luckily your opinion means nothing more than anyone else's that isn't a scout.
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 8, 2009 2:12 PM EST up reply actions
Defending your position would entail more than just stating your opinion
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 8, 2009 2:13 PM EST up reply actions
Kennedy has the right mix of injuries, meh ML performance, and meh stuff to have me worried.
Officially now the head of the Lobstein bandwagon.
Also, left knee down
Sign lady must die.
by EminenceFront on Dec 8, 2009 2:12 PM EST up reply actions
so this moves Melky to LF?
Vikings 4 the superbowl
Scherzer > Jackson, moving forward.
I'm a Brett Favre honk so FUCK YOU!
by PriceMultiCyYoungs on Dec 8, 2009 2:11 PM EST up reply actions
This.
Grandy adds to the Yanks’ OF, but Detroit just stole good ‘spects and E-Jax will help bolster an already pretty decent D’Back’s rotation…only 2010 will tell.
well i just think that they got the better end of it
Vikings 4 the superbowl
They pretty clearly shed a lot of payroll commitments...
and got young players with upside.
Boom. Outta Here.
I really hope the Yankees leave all those runs out of the lineup by leaving the DH "open" for guys to get days off.
I'm a Brett Favre honk so FUCK YOU!
by PriceMultiCyYoungs on Dec 8, 2009 2:13 PM EST reply actions
So I wonder what star we will be rumored to be going after today
maybe we’ll continue to hear Halladay rumors!
Who do we want? Roy Halladay! When do we want him? NOW
well i for one think this puts the yankees out of the Halladay rumors
unless they want to trade Hughes and Chamberlain
Vikings 4 the superbowl
i dont see them doing that
Vikings 4 the superbowl
A couple of relievers? Not sure if that would be enough.
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 8, 2009 2:24 PM EST up reply actions
Toronto would see them both as starters
Vikings 4 the superbowl
So are Scherzer & AJax any better than Maybin & Miller
Seems like they got a couple of real good players, while acknowledging that they probably won’t be very competitive next year. Now would be the time to offer a Wade Davis/Beej Upton for Verlander. Trolling, sort of.
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 8, 2009 2:31 PM EST reply actions
Detroit will still be competitive in the AL Central
Vikings 4 the superbowl
I don't see it
Their offense is going to be deplorable and who’s a legit AL starter behind Verlander? Sox have the best rotation in the division, Twins, dare I say it, should have the best offense, the Tigers are a mess of pre-maturely ended 3 year plans.
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 8, 2009 2:35 PM EST up reply actions
His K/9 was awful...
but is he not a “legit” AL pitcher? He pitched as one of the top 30 starters last year.
Boom. Outta Here.
I'm ignoring Maybin/Jackson for the moment being
But Scherzer is definitely better now than Miller was then.
by R.J. Anderson on Dec 8, 2009 2:36 PM EST up reply actions
How do we do a 3-way TVC?
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 8, 2009 2:37 PM EST up reply actions
Agreed.
My friend just sent this to me, so I’m not sure where he saw it. Regardless, tis awesome for DET:
starter Max Scherzer, relievers Daniel Schlereth and Phil Coke, and center fielder Austin Jackson. The Tigers get five years of Scherzer, six of Schlereth, five of Coke, and six of Jackson, potentially 22 years of control in total.starter Max Scherzer, relievers Daniel Schlereth and Phil Coke, and center fielder Austin Jackson. The Tigers get five years of Scherzer, six of Schlereth, five of Coke, and six of Jackson, potentially 22 years of control in total.
It's a bit unclear
how many years of cost control? I got it the first time, but the second time threw me for a loop
Signature space available for rent - Got to pay the bills somehow
I don't think they're cleaning house to the point of giving up Verly.
They’re just trying to keep up with the ChiSox.
And yes, Scherzer rocks Miller.
HAW HAW
LOLYanks.
Sucks for my keeper team. Sherzer to the AL. :(
Mira Sorvino...Paul Walker...T-Pain...Fall 2010...HEADSTONE MAFIA, A LOVE STORY OF REVENGE. "5/5 stars!!!" - DRB User "Andy Hellicksonstine"
Odds of getting something for Gross just went down
Ryan Chruch DFA
Career Splits vs RHP
Gross .251/.346/.414
Church .280/353/.460
RF UZR/150 Career
Gross: 17.6
Church 14.2
Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla
the Navarro made me think
we are gonna trade him or non tender him, why dont we do the same with Gross?
Who do we want? Roy Halladay! When do we want him? NOW
both Navarro and Gross are going to be gone
Vikings 4 the superbowl
Can we just start ST before the Yankees make a 4 team deal for Pujols, Mauer, and Halladay
Who do we want? Roy Halladay! When do we want him? NOW
BNightengale #mlb The SF Giants are talking to the Padres about 3B Kevin Kouzmanoff, but SD wants more than OF Fred Lewis and IF Kevin Frandsen
Officially now the head of the Lobstein bandwagon.
I could see Kouzmanoff getting traded to the twins for a package involving LHP Glen Perkins
Vikings 4 the superbowl
who in their right mind would give Brad Penny 7.5M?
Vikings 4 the superbowl
i think thats way too much for him
Vikings 4 the superbowl
I could see him being, at a minimum, worth 3 WAR next year
He will feast on bad teams and keep them competitive against good ones.
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 8, 2009 2:58 PM EST up reply actions
The Cubs are 'Cub-Killers'
the ghost of stokes, camp, lugo strikes TB-sept 2009
by CubFanRaysaddict on Dec 8, 2009 3:12 PM EST up reply actions
This
Why do you kill threads????
by Some other guy who does not care on Dec 8, 2009 4:28 PM EST up reply actions
Now if the Yanks can get J. Bay it looks like they will be pretty well set for the 2010's dynasty.
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 8, 2009 3:00 PM EST reply actions
David Price laughs at the thought of a Yankees Dynasty
Vikings 4 the superbowl
they have enough offense
a Lackey signing puts them on a very unfair level
Who do we want? Roy Halladay! When do we want him? NOW
Do they?
Teix and A-Rod should continue to dominate, but Posada, Jeter, and Cano should all put up lesser years than 2009. Melky Cab isn’t the answer in LF and RF is still manned by ultra-streaky 3TO’er Swisher. They’re old and Granderson will help, but I don’t see them scoring like they did last year without a Holliday/Bay/Crawford type addition.
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Dec 8, 2009 3:08 PM EST up reply actions
I hear Dewan Brazelton is still available.
And I bet we could get the Yanks to part with Casey Fossum. Bring back the old boys. :P
god help us all
--Gerald Wallace is the best player the Bobcats will have..... EVER
--Someone should slap Larry Brown and bring him back to reality..
SPTimesRays #Rays Maddon says Bartlett likely to remain in leadoff slot, Upton possible for 5-6 spot in order
Officially now the head of the Lobstein bandwagon.
What we've ignored so far.
The Yanks definitely just improved for 2010. We can say all we want abou them trading cost-controlled talent, but they improved their 2010 roster by a bit today. That stinks.
we need to throw some lefties at Granderson and his .202 avg vs lhp for the last 3 yrs
--Gerald Wallace is the best player the Bobcats will have..... EVER
--Someone should slap Larry Brown and bring him back to reality..
ed_price ESPN announces Peter Gammons leaving after winter meetings
Officially now the head of the Lobstein bandwagon.
thank god, i cant stand his Red Sox bias
one more hug from Maddon before he goes?
Vikings 4 the superbowl
god this guy is dumb
how about Reid Brignac, dioner navarro, Andy Sonnanstine and maybe an A baller.
uggla could then DH for the rays when they unload burrell.
Vikings 4 the superbowl
it was off of MLBtraderumors
Vikings 4 the superbowl
Just saw on Twitter from MLBTR that the Tigers signed Robinzon Diaz
Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla
LOL @ Maddon
* He is confident the players who struggled last season (Upton, Navarro, Burrell) will bounce back and the ones who did well (Crawford, Bartlett, Zobrist, Pena) will do so again.
Source: Heater
Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla
Rays are "looking at" Kelvim Escobar
don’t get too excited
Who do we want? Roy Halladay! When do we want him? NOW
In other news today, The Rays are still showing some interest in a Burrell-Bradley deal
Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla
In regards to SF1's inquiry about the Rays making their rule five pick the PTBNL for Shoppach
Doesn’t the player have to appear on an agreed upon list at the time of trade?
Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla
We gave them a list of two players.
That can (and in the past has) changed to other things, like cash.
by R.J. Anderson on Dec 8, 2009 4:06 PM EST up reply actions
I knew cash was the fallback, I had never heard of a different player or a draft pick being the compensation
Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla
So Bradley could be traded by tonight
to a AL team which isnt the Rays.
Jeez, even the annoying Bradley rumor might turn out false
Who do we want? Roy Halladay! When do we want him? NOW
Halladay
Sox wont give up Buccholz OR Kelly in any deal in part because the Yankees wont be going after him.
So even if we don’t get him, at least he will stay away from the Yankees and Red Sox
Who do we want? Roy Halladay! When do we want him? NOW
This is great.... there is <1% chance Halliday would resign with the Rays, and not to mention the Jays want Wade Davis as well, right?
If Halladay will sign on with the Rays for a long term deal after this season is over then the Upton for Halladay trade is a no brainer..I live in the Tampa area and watch pretty much every Rays game..To many times I have seen Upton slack on the field and basepaths but at the same time there have been times when he was sensational. All in all this trade is risky given that Halladay won’t sign for what the Rays can afford unless he wants to stay home in Tampa, where he lives…I like Upton but a team with the payroll such as the Rays, the Rays need players who hussle every game night in and night out. GO RAYS!
--Gerald Wallace is the best player the Bobcats will have..... EVER
--Someone should slap Larry Brown and bring him back to reality..
Cleveland beat reporter says Shoppach PTBNL
is “similar to” the return the Indians got in the Garko-to-Giants trade — Scott Barnes, a pretty well-regarded control-first lefty who split his age-21 season between A+ and AA.
No source cited. Offered without comment.
by fleerdon on Dec 9, 2009 9:01 AM EST reply actions
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