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More On Fastballs, Sliders and David Price

Over the course of the past two weeks we've really been keying in on David Price and pitch usage. The basic questions are: Can David Price be a successful starting pitcher right now with just two pitches? Does he really need to go to Durham and work on a third offering?

Star-divide

I searched the starting pitchers in 2008 with a minimum of 100 innings pitched. I think we can all agree that Price will pitch around 100 innings in the big leagues this season( hopefully more), but I wanted to set the bar a little low just incase. I then narrowed down the field a bit by pitch usage. Going off Price's limited 2008 numbers, I looked for pitchers who threw around 60% fastball and over 20% sliders. Finally, I eliminated any pitcher who threw a third offering over 10% of the time. Here are the names left:

Name

FB% 

SL%

Kyle Kendrick

75.00

21.00

Aaron Harang

71.00

23.00

Edwin Jackson

69.00

22.00

Oliver Perez

69.00

27.00

David Price

69.00

30.00

Ian Snell

62.00

33.00

Ervin Santana

61.00

34.00

Derek Lowe

61.00

32.00

Johnny Cueto

61.00

32.00

 

It's not quite the who's who of starting pitching, but there is some promise. Of course, I don't think any of us would like to see Price put up numbers similar to Kendrick, Harang, Jackson or Perez, but Santana and Lowe give us some hope. Here are the key stats of the players on the list.

 

 

Player

ERA

FIP

K/9

K/BB

HR/9

Kyle Kendrick

5.49

5.55

3.93

1.19

1.33

Aaron Harang

4.78

4.79

7.47

3.06

1.71

Edwin Jackson

4.42

4.88

5.3

1.4

1.13

Oliver Perez

4.22

4.68

8.35

1.71

1.11

David Price

1.93

3.42

7.71

3

0.64

Ian Snell

5.42

4.57

7.39

1.52

0.99

Ervin Santana

3.49

3.3

8.79

4.55

0.95

Derek Lowe

3.24

3.26

6.27

3.27

0.6

Johnny Cueto

4.81

4.9

8.17

2.32

1.5

As you can see, most of these guys are average starters at best. We really don't want Price to be average, at least I sure don't. Ervin Santana and Derek Lowe seem to be the outliers. Like Price, both pitchers were over 60% fastball and 30% slider and both were well above average pitchers. However, they weren't as FB/Slider heavy as Price was in limited action. Lowe mixes in a change up about 7% of the time. However, as a sinker baller, he is a different pitcher and his velocity is much lower than Price's.

Santana is an interesting case. His fastball velocity is around 94 MPH, which is similar to Price. However, his slider is about three miles per hour slower and stays around 84mph. One thing I did notice about Santana is that he just recently became a two pitch starter in 2008. In 2006 and 2007, he threw a curveball around 8% of the time and featured his changeup a bit more. In 2008, the curveball almost disappeared as he threw it around 1% of the time and the changeup was only used about 4%. The change in usage worked very well for Santana as his ERA and FIP both dropped by over two runs. He also saw a rise in swinging strikes from 6.8% in '07 to 10.7% in 08. Of course this increased his K/9, while lowering his BB/9, conversely raising his K/BB rate to a wonderful 4.55. It will be interesting to see if he can sustain the success he had in 2008 with his new approach to pitch selection, provided that his elbow is 100% healthy.

According to this quick research project, with the stuff Price has, he can most likely be your average fourth of fifth starter right now as a two trick pony. But again, who amongst us really wants Price to be just average? Is there a chance that he can be a really good starter with just the two pitches? Yes, but the odds of that happening aren't that great. So once again, if the Rays feel that he needs more time to fill out his repertoire, it's probably the best case for all parties involved.  

Photo by Dennis Adair  


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Tommy

Nice article. You are producing some though provoking artciles.

Take it one step further.

Compare what you gave us with Price as a two pitch pitcher, and slot it up against Hammel and Niemann.

Because I think the implication of what you are saying is that if we start Price now, and do not send him to the minors, that would be the same as starting Hammel for the whole year.

by plasticman on Mar 19, 2009 7:19 PM EDT reply actions  

It's probably just to keep them motivated

but Maddon claimed, during todays game that Niemann and Price are still competing for the #5 spot.

Evan Longoria and David Price - the fight for my heart

by joeybw on Mar 19, 2009 8:09 PM EDT reply actions  

Why wait?

I see some of the numbers reasoning, but it isn’t like Price hasn’t thrown a third pitch in his life. He showed a cut fastball a couple of times last year. I know that he threw change-ups at Vanderbilt, but the fastball and slider were usually enough to get the job done. Randy Johnson has done a pretty good job featuring a fastball/slider heavy repertoire, and I think that Price could definitely get by as a #3 starter to begin with potential for a #1 spot.

by scottmofield on Mar 19, 2009 9:24 PM EDT reply actions  

I understand the impatience...

but why rush it? The majors is no place to go learning a third pitch, and dropping a kid like that into things, expecting anything resembling immediate success, is pretty dangerous for the pitcher psychologically. I don’t debate the tools and raw talent, but remember: early on he almost left Vandy because he was getting knocked around. What if getting knocked around the second and third time through the AL-East produces similar doubts? I’m still po’ed that another guy I’ve been a fan of since his college days, Andrew Miller, was rushed along by the Tigers. He took more than a few lumps, and now his body language on the mound is totally different. He has the stuff, but his confidence looks shot.

Better to let Price finish honing his arsenal to have more ways to get guys out than let him work on it in the heat of a pennant race.

by smithhasaname on Mar 20, 2009 9:26 AM EDT reply actions  

Agreed

I think Miller will turn it around. The Marlins do a pretty good job with their young arms, and he just has such terrific stuff.

by rglass44 on Mar 20, 2009 9:43 AM EDT up reply actions  

We just traded a guy to the Tigers that, coming up, had a phenomenal FB/SL combo, his only problem was his consistency hitting spots

and the lack of a third pitch. This player was rushed by another organization, and didn’t receive much Minor League development upon his arrival here. This player has all the potential in the world to be a top of the rotation guy, but his lack of control will hold him back, as will his lack of a 3rd pitch.

Now before you guys jump all over this, Price has shown better control for the most part. Without a 3rd pitch in the Show, however, that control could get flighty as he gets too nibbly. I’m just saying.

Do what you love to do and give it your very best. Whether it's business or baseball, or the theater, or any field. If you don't love what you're doing and you can't give it your best, get out of it. Life is too short. You'll be an old man before you know it.

-Al Lopez

by Sandy Kazmir on Mar 20, 2009 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions  

he doesn't have a third pitch in The Show?

This is an outrage.

Check out my blog on (mostly ColdFusion, but some PHP) web development at kericr.wordpress.com

by kericr on Mar 20, 2009 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

Talk to Sylar

Do what you love to do and give it your very best. Whether it's business or baseball, or the theater, or any field. If you don't love what you're doing and you can't give it your best, get out of it. Life is too short. You'll be an old man before you know it.

-Al Lopez

by Sandy Kazmir on Mar 20, 2009 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

Santana's "curveball"

I’m not sure that that actually was a curveball. Looking at the speed of the pitches they seem awfully close untill this year when his slider ticked up a couple of notches. I wonder if it was just that he sometimes threw it a little to slurvy, and it didn’t have the bite. I tried to go back and look at old scouting reports, but I couldn’t find any that mentioned a curve ball. I wonder….

by rglass44 on Mar 20, 2009 9:52 AM EDT reply actions  

Yea without having the benefit of actually watching Santana alot I cant really tell.

But according to Fangraphs in 05/06/07 he had a slider he threw ~20% of the time and that was around 81 mph. Also in 05/06/07 he had a curveball he threw ~8% that was around 78 mph. Not a big of a difference, but again without actually watching him pitch I don’t know.

by Tommy Rancel on Mar 20, 2009 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

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