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Around SBN: The Most Dangerous Division in Sports

The Bullpen Battle: Joe Nelson vs. Lance Cormier

Recently, there has a been a few discussions around here about who should get the final bullpen spot. The most common names brought up are Jason Isringhausen, Joe Nelson and Lance Cormier. I covered Isringhausen before and I still think the Rays will opt to give him more work before making a decision. Whether that work comes in extended spring training or in Durham, I don't know, but I don't see him making the opening day roster as it stands. That leaves us with Joe Nelson and Lance Cormier.

Star-divide

Personally, I don't see a non-injury scenario right now where Nelson doesn't make the team, but many people will point to these numbers and say Cormier has been better than Nelson this spring therefore he should get a spot.

 

IP

ER

K

BB

HR

Cormier

10

2

7

2

0

Nelson

4.2

7

4

0

4

Nelson has had an ugly spring, but it's only 4.2 innings of work. I feel that some are losing sight of the fact that  he was an above average pitcher in 2008 and had better numbers than Cormier.

Nelson went 3-1 with a 2.00 ERA for the Marlins in 2008. His ERA was wonderful, however, his 3.45 FIP suggests that while he was good, he wasn't a 2.00 ERA good and that's ok. A 3.45 FIP would've been the third best in the Rays bullpen behind Grant Balfour and J.P. Howell. Nelson also had a 10.0 K/9 and a SwStr% of 11.6, both very good for a reliever. As Erik pointed out earlier, he is a fly ball pitcher and does give up a few home runs, but it's nothing out of the ordinary. If you are looking for a regression, according to his BABIP of .286 in 2008 compared to his career .302, there is room for a little regression, but nothing like the hit Dan Wheeler might take.

It's no secret, I loved the Cormier move as a low risk/potential reward signing. Originally, I saw Cormier as a replacement for Chad Bradford and when Bradford had surgery, I figured it was a perfect match. But then the Rays signed Brian Shouse and Jason Isringhausen and now it seems like Cormier maybe on the outside looking in.

I liked Cormier for a few reasons. Bouncing from starter to reliever really hurt Cormier over the first few seasons of his career. Finally, in 2008, the Baltimore Orioles decided to use Cormier a reliever and things clicked for him. He is a ground ball pitcher, and the Rays defense and groundball pitchers were meant for each other. I couldn't really find a fluke in Cormier's season. His ERA of 4.02 was almost equal with his 4.04 FIP. His BABIP was within two points of his career average. His K/BB rate, while poor, was in line with his career totals and while his HR/9 was down more than half of his career number, you could say working as a below average starter inflated his numbers.

Any way you slice it, both relievers had good years and both landed major league deals with the Rays. However, when you put the numbers from 2008 side to side, Cormier had a nice season, but Nelson was better and that's why he got the bigger bucks. Nelson signed for $1.3 million dollars, while Cormier signed for almost half of that at $675 K. I know money shouldn't be a deciding factor, but it can't be ignored.


Graph_medium

In a perfect world, I would love to have both in the Rays bullpen and maybe get rid of a higher paid, less effective, right handed reliever (there are a few, it doesn't matter which one.). A trade or injury could change the situation, but without one or the other, it's unlikely that both make it. Cormier has had a very nice spring, but all factors considered, there really is no question in my mind; Joe Nelson should and most likely will make the team

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I've been waiting on this topic

If we are choosing either Hammel/Nieman as the #5 SP, with the loser traded, i view the bullpen as 8=7

And let’s not rule out a trade of Wheeler in that mix

by Raymondo on Mar 25, 2009 12:10 PM EDT reply actions  

One more possible factor

Nelson still has two arbitration years left, while Cormier only has one. Thus, we could continue to control Nelson for longer.

Vogt early, Vogt often.

by Brickhaus on Mar 25, 2009 12:22 PM EDT reply actions  

Andrew, I know you are too smart to let this happen

You can’t let Cormier go so we can keep Hammel around, trade him or fuck it, release him, give Cormier his spot.

I hear Wheeler is “injured” that spot is for Price

You are in the AL East, put the best team you can out there, our 12 pichers should be Shields, Kazmir, Garza, Sonnanstine, Price, Niemann, Cormier, Shouse, Nelson, Howell, Balfour and Percy(I gotta get used to this one)

Yeah, I am sure people will be upset if Hammel gets cut but too bad, we need to have our best pitchers out there, not just guys who are out of options.

Evan Longoria and David Price - the fight for my heart

by joeybw on Mar 25, 2009 12:50 PM EDT reply actions  

Just like last year...

guys will be rotated through the disabled list because of “injury” until someone is actually injured.

by K-Rock on Mar 25, 2009 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

What of the options and contract issues?

Cormier is out of options, don’t know about Nelson. Joe probably can decline a demo and opt for FA, but that terminates his contract, the best one he’s ever gotten.

Send him down to work things out – likely a spot will open up soon. Just dropping Hammel is a bit extreme – he should have some trade value. I’d think more than Ridgeway – and he brought Aybar!

You can’t just put guys on the DL without injury, though it is a bit loose. If the player doesn’t agree they can file a grievance.

by nyyfaninlaaland on Mar 25, 2009 5:18 PM EDT reply actions  

They're both out of options

I’m pretty sure of that.

I think you’re joking about Ridgeway. Unless you also mean to imply that trading a better prospect than Glenn Gibson should bring in a better major leaguer than Elijah Dukes.

If Zobrist is the CF, they can delay the decision until Upton comes back and carry an extra pitcher. If you want to get really creative, you can send Sonnanstine down to Durham until we need to use a #5 starter (though I would not endorse that tactic).

Vogt early, Vogt often.

by Brickhaus on Mar 25, 2009 10:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

Brignac has a .000 average at the major league level

Extrapolate that over 162 games.

Do what you love to do and give it your very best. Whether it's business or baseball, or the theater, or any field. If you don't love what you're doing and you can't give it your best, get out of it. Life is too short. You'll be an old man before you know it.

-Al Lopez

by Sandy Kazmir on Mar 25, 2009 11:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

It equals .357

Wow, we need to have him at SS!

Evan Longoria and David Price - the fight for my heart

by joeybw on Mar 26, 2009 10:44 AM EDT up reply actions  

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