David Price, Reid Brignac, Justin Ruggiano, Elliot Johnson, and John Jaso Optioned to Durham
A few days ago Tommy suggested that Adam Kennedy had a good shot at making the opening day 25-man roster. With today's moves -- announced via press release -- that seems even more likely.
Everyone knows about Price and the work he needs to do on his change and efficiency. The added benefit of keeping Price's innings in check is simply the cherry on top. Don't expect Price to be down for too long either. Getting to work with James Shields, Jim Hickey, and then Xavier Hernandez on his change-up should do wonders for him.
Brignac was never a serious option to start in the majors barring injury and it would make absolutely no sense to place him on the bench when he needs the reps in Durham. It'll be interesting to see if the Rays continue to cross-train Brignac at second base, or if they let him play shortstop for the majority of the time.
Johnson would've been the more likely bench candidate, but Kennedy offers more in the way of defense. Jaso, again, had little chance at the roster.
Ruggiano is the surprise. Apparently, Ben Zobrist will be the reserve outfielder in combination with the non-Gabe of the day. It makes sense, the two differ very little in offensive or defensive talents, Zobrist has added flexibility, but frankly that's a bit overrated given his lack of defensive talents at the infield positions. As mentioned above, Adam Kennedy looks likely to make the roster.
Here are some links to DRaysBay's coverage on the David Price decision:
One Pitch, Two Pitch, Fast Pitch, Slow Pitch
More On Fastballs, Sliders and David Price
David Price: "My slider's gone away"
So, Jason Hammel Might Be The Rays Fifth Starter
Update: A few quotes from David Price and Andrew Friedman from Raysbaseball.com
Friedman on making the decision.
"We had a lot of conversations about ways to get creative. And went through it for the last two or three weeks at length and ultimately decided that -- all things considered -- that this was the right move for David and in turn the organization."
Friedman on how the organization's approach has changed.
"As we've demonstrated in the past, we're very dogmatic when it comes to our young pitchers and building them up," Friedman said. "And we were in a different position in '06 and '07, when we could shut guys down near the end of seasons and not have it present a problem.
"But we're in a different situation now. We have expectations and hopes of playing in October, and we feel like we'll be a better team with David as a part of that and also continuing to work on the developmental things we've laid out as well."
Friedman on what they want to see improved.
"Being able to get deep into games, which all comes back to being able to command his fastball at will," Friedman said. "The great thing about David is, whenever you lay a challenge in front of him, he exceeds your expectations and what you ask of him. And so that's something that we've laid out."
Price on the "sting" of the news
"It's just, I don't know, I haven't really thought about it a whole lot right now," Price said. "Probably a couple of days, I'll have some feelings about it, but right now it kind of stings a little bit."
Price showing amazing maturity and knows that it is the right decision
"I talked to my agent quite a bit, and he told me kind of what to expect," Price said. "So I came in and had fun. This is where I want to be, so have fun. It was a fun Spring Training, a great group of guys right here. Hopefully, I get to join them sooner or later.""Yeah, it's a business," Price said. "They have to look out for their best interest. If I was the owner of the team, I would be doing the same thing."
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109 comments
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Comments
My question is this
Does Price w/o the great change still give us a better chance to win than Nieman or Hammel?
by Raymondo on Mar 25, 2009 6:10 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
The answer is no one knows.
Likely, Price without a great change is better. And long term he could probably be a stud with only two pitches. But with 3 pitches, he’ll be a perennial Cy Young candidate.
Tools Whore
by Tyler on Mar 25, 2009 6:13 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Given the lack of data, nobody can really speak on how good/bad the change is with any certainty either.
We have to defer to the Rays here.
by R.J. Anderson on Mar 25, 2009 6:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe, but I rather him have three pitches.
by Tommy Rancel on Mar 25, 2009 6:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Tommy, gave the website another plug on ESPN 1040
by Raymondo on Mar 25, 2009 6:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If his two pitches are better if he only has two, I'd rather he not screw up his mechanics with a third
by Brickhaus on Mar 25, 2009 8:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Can we really compare pitchers from the 1940's and before to pitchers of today in terms of arsenals?
Also: what is wrong with A.J. Burnett? Career FIP sub-3.8.
by R.J. Anderson on Mar 25, 2009 9:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd hope Price ends up better than Burnett
No, we can’t really compare. But there is precedent for major league success throwing almost exclusively two pitches. The comments about losing his slider because of the change up motion scares me a bit, and it seems like for every time mechanical tinkering improves the pitcher, there are as many instances where it harms the pitcher irreparably.
Vogt early, Vogt often.
by Brickhaus on Mar 25, 2009 9:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
They aren't tinkering with his mechanics.
They’re telling him to throw his change more, a pitch he’s thrown since high school. Kazmir, Sonny, and Edwin have also been told to throw their change more, are you worried about their mechanics too?
by R.J. Anderson on Mar 25, 2009 9:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, but
a change up is a bit different than other pitches in that it frequently requires a mechanical adjustment in order to throw it so it looks like the fastball, and it always causes the development of different muscles because there is a set of muscles only used when throwing the change (much like a scroogie).
Vogt early, Vogt often.
by Brickhaus on Mar 25, 2009 10:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Honestly though
I made the original comment a little tongue in cheek. Of course I want Price to pick up a change, just his comment about losing his slider due to the other muscles developing concerns me a bit. It just seems a little late in his development process for them to be working on this, and there are a number of pitchers who got less effective after they started incorporating a change.
Vogt early, Vogt often.
by Brickhaus on Mar 25, 2009 10:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And it's possible, but unlikely
that he’s throwing a variety of change that doesn’t require any mechanical changes (i.e. a palmball or foshball, although I’m guessing his hands are too big to throw one of those; he probably throws a straight change like Shields).
Vogt early, Vogt often.
by Brickhaus on Mar 25, 2009 10:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just pull the shade
its not that hard
Do what you love to do and give it your very best. Whether it's business or baseball, or the theater, or any field. If you don't love what you're doing and you can't give it your best, get out of it. Life is too short. You'll be an old man before you know it.
-Al Lopez
by Sandy Kazmir on Mar 25, 2009 10:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
fransisco liriano has learned how to master the change up, david price will do the same
NFL-Lions,Vikings,Texans,Bills
MLB-Rays,Twins,Marlins,Reds
NBA-T-Wolves,Cavliiers,Warriors,Bobcats
NHL-Wild,Penguins
NCAA-Gophers,Gators,Longhorns,Fighting Irish
all in the order in which i root for 1st
by RaysOfHope on Mar 26, 2009 12:44 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wasn't he a better pitcher when he just threw a slider and a fastball?
Vogt early, Vogt often.
by Brickhaus on Mar 26, 2009 8:01 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes
But that slider sat at 92-93 MPH, IIRC. I don’t know that someone can sustain that velo on a slider w/o injury, as Liriano had.
I’d rather avoid TJ with DP if possible.
When you're 90 years old, you don't buy green bananas.
by PriceMultiCyYoungs on Mar 26, 2009 8:26 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
ya but the slider is the reason he needed TJS
he threw it too often
NFL-Lions,Vikings,Texans,Bills
MLB-Rays,Twins,Marlins,Reds
NBA-T-Wolves,Cavliiers,Warriors,Bobcats
NHL-Wild,Penguins
NCAA-Gophers,Gators,Longhorns,Fighting Irish
all in the order in which i root for 1st
by RaysOfHope on Mar 26, 2009 11:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
"Screw up his mechanics"
…
This is ridiculously far fetched, even for you.
by R.J. Anderson on Mar 25, 2009 9:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Again, he's not even tinkering with his "mechanics"
Which implies a change in arm angle. He’s working on throwing a pitch more. This happens with almost every pitcher on every team. Guys mess with grips on their own, does that “mess up their mechanics”? No.
We’ve got a world class organization here, I don’t think they’re going to fudge this up with messing with something that’s completely and utterly related to the goal.
by R.J. Anderson on Mar 25, 2009 9:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
RJ, have you ever thrown a change-up?
Vogt early, Vogt often.
by Brickhaus on Mar 25, 2009 10:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, he struck out his little cousin with a change up last week.
Then he crushed a home run off the poor kid. He’s an awful person.
by Tommy Rancel on Mar 25, 2009 10:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
A good one? No.
A crappy one? Absolutely.
by R.J. Anderson on Mar 25, 2009 10:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Then presumably, unless you were throwing a palmball
you understand how it stressed the arm differently than a fastball or a slider?
Vogt early, Vogt often.
by Brickhaus on Mar 25, 2009 10:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That doesn't seem to be a conventional definition of "mechanics".
by R.J. Anderson on Mar 25, 2009 10:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's what I meant by it
Changes the kinesthetics – does that work better?
Vogt early, Vogt often.
by Brickhaus on Mar 25, 2009 11:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I found this little tidbit on Lancasters blog.
While Price being sent out wasn’t a surprise, the fact that Ruggiano got cut was unexpected. With B.J. Upton expected to open the year on the disabled list
I haven’t heard that. He says later in the same post that he’s probably only going to miss a week or so. If he goes on the DL, he won’t be back until April 21st. That would greatly sadden him. I want him to be back for the home opener.
Tools Whore
by Tyler on Mar 25, 2009 6:16 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I think he could go on the DL retroactively, no?
by Tommy Rancel on Mar 25, 2009 6:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
There is no DL as far as I know until opening day. Could be wrong.
Tools Whore
by Tyler on Mar 25, 2009 6:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
A DL stint to start the season can be backdated
and is done routinely. But I’m not sure if there are limitations as to how far back.
by nyyfaninlaaland on Mar 25, 2009 6:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Okay. I can't find the answer to the rule anywhere.
If you can backdate it, the backdate rule is 10 days, meaning he’d have to be on the DL 5 days, which would put him eligible for the home opener.
Tools Whore
by Tyler on Mar 25, 2009 7:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sucks to see them gone but they had no shot anyway except for Ruggiano
Anyway, I really think it’s time to say good bye to Richard, Olmedo, Sadler and Weber, I feel like we are keeping too many crappy players still
Evan Longoria and David Price - the fight for my heart
by joeybw on Mar 25, 2009 6:21 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Probably there just to make sure everyone can take a day off.
Swav or Die.
by SRQman on Mar 25, 2009 6:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Probably
At least with Olmedo, Sadler and Weber but as for Richard…..Pena, Aybar, Ensberg and hell even Zobrist can fill in 1B
Evan Longoria and David Price - the fight for my heart
by joeybw on Mar 25, 2009 6:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Don't know. Doubt he will get much time though.
Swav or Die.
by SRQman on Mar 25, 2009 6:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So when do you see Price getting the call again?
I’ve heard dates like late May or early June thrown around, but that seems like a long time, especially if Hammell/Niemann aren’t getting it done…
by Sliderule on Mar 25, 2009 6:46 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Tough to say. There is the innings/work load situation and the development issue.
I truly don’t feel the development issue will take long. The change-up seems to be moving rapidly. He needs to re-discover the slider and work on fastball command. Remember, he will be working with Xavier Hernandez, who is excellent with young pitchers.
Then you have the innings issue. Most people estimate Price will pitched about 150 innings this year. It’s a matter of how many the Rays want coming in the Majors.
by Tommy Rancel on Mar 25, 2009 6:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Forgot to add my guess.
I’d say the Rays will use about 20-25 innings in Durham and call Price up in mid May. From here, he should make ~23 starts. If you peg him or 6 innings a start that’s 138 innings in the majors. Im sure they will do some tinkering here and there to maximize his season.
by Tommy Rancel on Mar 25, 2009 6:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Rotoworld's Take
The Rays will keep saying it’s a baseball move, but Price is going down so that they can save money in three years. It seems like a ridiculous choice when the AL East seems likely to be so closely contended again. They can’t even make the case that he was outpitched this spring, what with Jason Hammel sporting a 4.95 ERA and Jeff Niemann at 7.71. Price, who was held back intiially, allowed one run in 8 1/3 innings. This will serve to keep his innings count down, and Price may be a better pitcher in September as a result. However, if the Rays go 3-7 in the fifth starter’s starts before Price comes up in late May or June, it might mean the difference between a playoff spot and spending October at home.
James Shields could go 3-7, Scott Kazmir could go 3-7 and Jason Hammel could go 10-0. We just don’t know, but I can’t believe people still think money is the major factor.
by Tommy Rancel on Mar 25, 2009 7:03 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
How is the 5th starter going to get 10 starts by late May?
The 10th start wouldn’t come until May 31st
Do what you love to do and give it your very best. Whether it's business or baseball, or the theater, or any field. If you don't love what you're doing and you can't give it your best, get out of it. Life is too short. You'll be an old man before you know it.
-Al Lopez
by Sandy Kazmir on Mar 25, 2009 11:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It really is absurd
I mean, ESPN isn’t even buying this line of thinking. Their linkline for the story: Rays send Price to minors to monitor workload
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by kericr on Mar 26, 2009 8:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
We havent really talked much about this
but what do you guys think is the over/under on when Joyce makes it to the bigs? Obviously, he had a nice rookie campaign last year but seemed to struggle against LHP and was inconsistent all year. Im really looking forward to seeing him bat 6th behind Burrell and giving us another 20+ Hr bat in the line up. Its cool to think by June Price could be our fifth starter and Joyce our RF.
by BossmanJunior333 on Mar 25, 2009 7:23 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Injury, mash or September probably.
I would imagine he’d be the first OF called up in case of an injury, but if the Gabe’s stay healthy, it could realistically be September before he’s called up. Again, you just don’t know. Neither Price or Joyce is a Longoria situation where was very cut and dry, they held Longoria back to make sure they got the 7th year if he didn’t sign a LTD. With both of them money plays a role, as it always will, but more than that there is development to be done.
Tools Whore
by Tyler on Mar 25, 2009 7:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Gotta love Price
Price nodded when asked if he understood the Rays’ reasoning.
“Yeah, it’s a business,” Price said. “They have to look out for their best interest. If I was the owner of the team, I would be doing the same thing.”
So mature for his age. I remember not too long ago our top prospects would bitch about being in the Minors.
Evan Longoria and David Price - the fight for my heart
by joeybw on Mar 25, 2009 10:14 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Can't learn that flipping burgers?
too dry?
Do what you love to do and give it your very best. Whether it's business or baseball, or the theater, or any field. If you don't love what you're doing and you can't give it your best, get out of it. Life is too short. You'll be an old man before you know it.
-Al Lopez
by Sandy Kazmir on Mar 25, 2009 11:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Damnit Freidman
Killing my damn Fantasy Team asshole… (Not to mention your own)
Bloomquist. God? Or just an illusion? You be the judge.
by focs on Mar 26, 2009 12:24 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
As far as two-pitch arsenals go..
Part of Ervin Santana’s great year last year was his decision to throw mostly his fastball and slider, as opposed to the four or five pitches he’d try throwing in the past. Instead of focusing on quantity, he focused on the quality of his pitches.
I think Price could get by on his fastball and slider if he’s locating them properly, but I think that might be the bigger issue than the change up at the moment. He needs to improve his control, and it’s something Kevin Goldstein and Baseball America seem to be missing. Even if you watch those two huge strikeouts in the ALCS…. those are questionable pitches that happened to go David’s way thanks to the sheer awesomeness of his stuff.
I don’t think it’s about money, either. Look at what happened with Longoria – yeah, he missed the Super Two date, but they gave him a potentially large contract that’s going to surpass whatever money he would have made normally. If Friedman and company think a young player is ready to help them, then they’re going to keep the player up.
by Suttree on Mar 26, 2009 2:01 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Yep, we covered Santana
Santana is an interesting case. His fastball velocity is around 94 MPH, which is similar to Price. However, his slider is about three miles per hour slower and stays around 84mph. One thing I did notice about Santana is that he just recently became a two pitch starter in 2008. In 2006 and 2007, he threw a curveball around 8% of the time and featured his changeup a bit more. In 2008, the curveball almost disappeared as he threw it around 1% of the time and the changeup was only used about 4. The change in usage worked very well for Santana as his ERA and FIP both dropped by over two runs. He also saw a rise in swinging strikes from 6.8 in ’07 to 10.7% in 08. Of course this increased his K/9, while lowering his BB/9, conversely raising his K/BB rate to a wonderful 4.55. It will be interesting to see if he can sustain the success he had in 2008 with his new approach to pitch selection, provided that his elbow is 100% healthy.
However, for every Santana there is two or three Edwin Jackson’s or Oliver Perez’s. After talking to people and reading some things, the biggest concern now seems to be pitch efficiency with Price. I don’t think the third pitch is the big issue anymore. He has a fastball, slider and changeup now. The task now is to tighten up those pitches and turn his five inning outings into seven inning outings.
by Tommy Rancel on Mar 26, 2009 8:27 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think Price going to the minors
has a whole lot to do with his pitching ability at all. I think it is so we can showcase Hammel for a trade. I don’t think the front office envision a spot for him in our future. They do with Nieman to a point, especially in the pen. So them sending Price down is soley, IMO, to keep him throwing in game scenarios while we market Hammel. Price will be back up in a month or so once Hammel is traded and Nieman will will either be traded or relegated to bullpen duties.
I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them. - Thomas Jefferson
by MongoLongo on Mar 26, 2009 9:35 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I too fear
that not having Price in the 5 spot the whole season will hurt us in the win column. If it was me, I would say screw hammel and trade him for Ranch flavored sunflower seeds, and use the hell out of Price. Because if a guy is good at pitching as Price is, than he can be very productive with a nasty fastball and a devastating slider. Ask Randy Johnson. If a pitcher can hit his spots, he can tell the batter what he is throwing and the batter still won’t touch it. Price pitches with conviction, hammel throws hoping not to give up the too many runs. Hammel is not pro ready mentally.
I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them. - Thomas Jefferson
by MongoLongo on Mar 26, 2009 9:40 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Quote from David in TBT today:
“I didn’t have very good stuff, but my numbers are there, I haven’t really been mysefl at all, but I competed… That’s all I can do.”
You can also go, get that good stuff back, victimize some poor AAA victims, and we’ll see you in a month to dominate.
by BrokeBearMountain on Mar 26, 2009 10:27 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
In semi cool news, which we can all use
Well first off, Friedman said last night that BJ still may not start on the DL
but if he does, this could be cool
Joe Maddon defended the decision to demote Price. Maddon also indicated that Kennedy has not yet won the final bench spot, saying that Matt Joyce still has a shot at making the roster. Maddon spoke very highly about Joyce’s swing but said he needs to see him play the field.
I wonder what will happen if Joyce mashes while BJ is gone
Evan Longoria and David Price - the fight for my heart
by joeybw on Mar 26, 2009 10:40 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
If that happens, does that mean the all-Gabe platoon would play center while Upton is out?
Vogt early, Vogt often.
by Brickhaus on Mar 26, 2009 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

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