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Jeremy Hellickson Is and Was a Bad, Bad Man

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Through their first two minor league seasons. It's important to note that Hellickson spent about a day in rookie ball, where as about a third of Barnese's time has come in rookie ball. As impressive as Barnese's numbers are when compared to contemporary performances he's not quite as strikeout heavy or walk preventive as younger Hellickson. He does seem to suppress homeruns better though.

 

Star-divide

Fun fact: in Vero Beach this season, Hellickson had more games started than walks and homeruns allowed combined.

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Read More: jeremy hellickson is like the narwhal of rays pitching prospects

9/10

Brad Ziegler had a scoreless inning streak. Brad Ziegler had not met BJ Upton.

by P Brady on Mar 3, 2009 10:36 PM EST reply actions  

Loved watching Hellboy in VB last year

I’d love to get Bricks/RJ’s opinion on this but reading recent comments about him throwing ‘too many strikes’ and batters ‘knowing something is going to be around the plate’ isn’t that at somewhat dependent on the catcher calling the game, or do pitchers have more control over where/when they throw their pitches as compared to the majors? It is just hard for me to believe that someone with great control should be criticized for throwing too many pitches over the plate when if they can do that they can obviously miss the plate completely on command as well (or is it he pitches too much in the upper part of the strike zone/??) Also my OT comment for is the Magic really showed a lot in the 4th quarter tonight, Howard didn’t back down even in foul trouble, this team is special even w/o Nelson.

'talkin 'bout practice?

by CubFanRaysaddict on Mar 4, 2009 1:00 AM EST reply actions  

A lot of that has to do with the catcher

And frankly, a lot of it is flat out BS in my opinion. Catchers call a lot more strikes than pitchers throw, just most pitchers aren’t that great at hitting their spots. Hellickson hits his spots. His walk rate will probably spike when he first hits the majors simply because umpires won’t give the benefit of the doubt to a young pitcher who hits the corners, but his variance on how much he misses his spots by is a lot less than most pitchers, which is a good thing.

As for pitching high, he throws a curveball that has good break. To throw it for a strike, it has to come in high, but by the time it crosses the plate it shouldn’t be that high.

Vogt early, Vogt often.

by Brickhaus on Mar 4, 2009 10:32 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

thanks for that info

Kaz/Shields/Garza/Sonny/Price/Davis/Hellickson-necessitate a drool cup or a 7 man rotation

by CubFanRaysaddict on Mar 4, 2009 1:25 PM EST up reply actions  

I agree

If Hellickson is accurate enough to throw that many strikes then he can surely adapt and start throwing pitches right off the plate. This problem won’t be fixed until he faces better hitters. Right now he can just throw strikes all day long and dominate. Sooner or later that won’t be the case and at that point he will start locating his pitches in different spots.

by matthan on Mar 4, 2009 8:29 AM EST reply actions  

Command vs. Control

The ability to put the ball where you want it INSIDE the strike zone is different than the ability to throw strikes.

by rglass44 on Mar 4, 2009 8:57 AM EST up reply actions  

You make it seem that Hellickson is effectively wild or had one or two low walk games

The guy consistently throws strikes. He isn’t getting lucky. He is throwing where he wants to throw it. I’m sure he can throw a few inches to the left or the right if he needed.

Given his statistics your assumption is that Hellickson is essentially aiming in the middle of the strike zone and the ball will end up a few inches in any direction. Even if that were true then all he has to do would be to aim right on the corner. Then at least 50% of the time he’d be slightly off the plate. If he wants to reduce the probability of throwing a strike even further then he’d move an inch off the plate and so forth.

Hellickson isn’t Jackson when he had one of his miraculous 0 or 1 walk games. He consistently walks 0 or 1.

by matthan on Mar 4, 2009 9:56 AM EST up reply actions  

I didn't make this up.

I also don’t know if it’s true about Hellickson, but the fact that he gives up a lot of hard-hit balls at the lower levels could imply that. As someone else mentioned elsewhere (Brick I believe), Sonny had similar issues. He could throw strikes all day, but when he made a mistake it was up in the zone (and punished). With the scouting report on Hellickson that he has good but not great stuff, you could see how that could be an issue.

There is a difference between the two skills whether or not you believe it.

by rglass44 on Mar 4, 2009 10:08 AM EST up reply actions  

The way I see it

There are two elements to command and control – the ability to release consistently, and the ability to spin consistently (there’s really a third in the ability to control the pitching motion consistently, but if you can’t do that, you’d constantly be throwing wild pitches). If you can’t release consistently, your command is going to stink. You’ll be Edwin Jackson, and half the time you won’t know where the ball is going, you just hope it’s going towards the general target. 90% of major league pitchers can release consistently, and those who can’t usually have a walk rate over 4/9. Much more common is an inconsistency in the amount of spin a player puts on a pitch, which leads to inconsistent break. However, when most pitches break more than 6 inches, inconsistent break can lead to missing a lot of spots.

If you can release and spin consistently, then you really don’t have command or control issues. Just my guess based on general observation, is that an average major league pitcher can hit within 9 inches of their spot 90% of the time, which would probably result in a walk rate a bit under 4/9. Guys with better walk rates have better variances – their release points will be more consistent, and their break will be more consistent. Most pitchers’ variance with the fastball will be significantly better than that, and most of the variance would come from secondary pitches.

Nobody tries to throw strikes right down the middle of the plate every pitch. Sonannstine doesn’t do it, Hellickson doesn’t do it, Byun Hyung Kim doesn’t do it except in the all-star game against Cal Ripken. What they do is come closer than most pitchers to hitting their spots, and catchers usually don’t call for a ball to be thrown. Watch a catcher’s mitt and you’ll see that most balls thrown are because the pitcher missed, not because the catcher called it. If someone has a ridiculously low walk rate, it’s because the player is better at hitting their spots. Sometimes, it can be a bad thing that a player hits their spots well, i.e. if it’s because they get very little movement on their pitches, or if they need to take so much off the velocity to do so that it makes their pitches less effective; however, by almost all accounts neither one of those is the case with Hellickson. If you hit your spots, have good velocity and have good movement, you’re going to be a good pitcher. I can probably count on my fingers and toes the number of pitchers in the past decade who have had all three.

Vogt early, Vogt often.

by Brickhaus on Mar 4, 2009 11:16 AM EST up reply actions  

And yes,

it’s an issue if when you miss you tend to miss up in the zone, but if you’re keeping your variance low, then you’re not going to have that many mistake pitches for opponents to punish.

Vogt early, Vogt often.

by Brickhaus on Mar 4, 2009 11:17 AM EST up reply actions  

I know it exists, I was pointing out the evidence shows that Hellickson has "command"

It doesn’t make sense that a player that consistently throws strikes every game lacks command. If he didn’t have command then surely he would have many more games where the balls weren’t going where they were supposed to go. For some reason Hellickson is able to pound a tiny box over and over. That implies that he has a pretty darn good idea where the ball is going.

The way I define command vs control is with command you have a far smaller margin of error between your aiming point and where it hits the glove than if you just have control. If you are wild then that margin of error is even larger and if you are Rick Ankiel that margin of error is infinite. Given the size of the strike zone and the number of strikes Hellickson throws it is safe to say his margin of error is very small. If it wasn’t then by sheer probability he would have games that he would walk a few guys.

by matthan on Mar 4, 2009 2:02 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't disagree with you.

I was just offering up how that line of thinking goes.

I think Hell-boy is Sonny-lite. Not quite as polarizing because his stuff is better, but he doesn’t have all the pitchability Sonny does.

by rglass44 on Mar 4, 2009 2:12 PM EST up reply actions  

I disagree

Other way around, IMO. Maybe he doesn’t have the same baseball brain (who knows), but that’s a different issue entirely.

Vogt early, Vogt often.

by Brickhaus on Mar 4, 2009 2:21 PM EST up reply actions  

No, I think Hellboy has better stuff

And that Sonny is Hell-boy lite.

Vogt early, Vogt often.

by Brickhaus on Mar 4, 2009 2:52 PM EST up reply actions  

That's what I meant

He’s less of an extreme of what Sonny is. So we agree.

by rglass44 on Mar 4, 2009 3:40 PM EST up reply actions  

Also

A key key difference between Hellickson and Barnese is that Hellickson throws a lot of breaking pitches, Barnese does not. It makes it a lot easier to not give up walks if you’re mostly throwing fastballs with an occasional change mixed in.

Vogt early, Vogt often.

by Brickhaus on Mar 4, 2009 11:25 AM EST reply actions  

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