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For the Tampa Bay Rays, Andy Sonnanstine is in control

Wade Davis's excellent performance this spring has many fans are already fantasizing about a rotation of Scott Kazmir, Matt Garza, James Shields, David Price and Davis. I'll admit, I to have visions of this rotation in the Rays future, but we seem to be pushing aside Andy Sonnanstine without thinking. To this point Sonnanstine has been very good for the Rays. Most people thought his max potential was a fifth starter type, and while that may still be true over the course of his career, his performance to date has been much better than that.

Star-divide

With an FIP of 3.91 in 2008, Sonnanstine had the second best FIP in the Rays rotation behind James Shields. He will start 2009 with a career FIP of 4.05. Just for comparisons sake, The Orioles, Nationals, Pirates and Tigers didn't feature one starter in 2008 with over 100 innings with a sub 4.05 FIP. If you believe in projection systems like CHONE and Marcel, Sonnanstine's 2009 won't be that far off his past performances. CHONE has him at a 4.13 FIP, while Marcel is a bit kinder with 3.96. Either way you look at it, that is a quality pitcher stashed in the back end of the rotation. 

 

The obvious knock on Sonnanstine is that he's hittable. His career H/9 of 10.08 is not impressive, but what is impressive is his ability the keep runners off base via the walk. In 324 Major League innings Sonny has allowed just 63 walks. His old friend, Edwin Jackson, walked 77 hitters in 183.1 innings last year. Incase you were wondering, last year Sonnanstine also had a higher K/9 than Jackson, who is now busy "wowing" Jim Leyland with his electric stuff.

Thanks to our new found friend, Baseball-Reference's PI feature, I looked up some of the best K/BB ratios over the past 20 seasons for starting pitchers. Here were the full parameters.

  • Age range of 24-25
  • Starting Pitcher with 90% of games coming as a starter
  • 300 innings pitched minimum

Player

K/BB

B.Sheets

5.61

J.Vazquez

4.16

J.Shields

3.89

J. Peavy

3.85

P. Martinez

3.57

B. Saberhagen

3.52

A. Sonnantine

3.51

R. Oswalt

3.47

D. Haren

3.46

Not only does Sonny make the list, but James Shields also checks in with the 3rd best K/BB rate for the parameters set. Now obviously, Sonnanstine isn't on the level of most of the names on the list, however, this just shows that his control is pretty special. In fact, some of the names below him include: CC Sabathia, Mike Mussina, Roy Halladay and the control artist himself, Mr. Greg Maddux.

This year will be an interesting one for Sonnanstine. Will he be able to repeat his 2008 performance and prove that maybe he really is more than a fourth or fifth starter? If he does, do the Rays trade him after the season?

Sonnanstine will be arbitration eligible for the first time after the season. He also figures to have top prospect Wade Davis breathing down his neck for part of, if not most of, the season. The smart money says if he does have a good year the Rays would be in a prime position to move him, improving any area of weakness they feel they have. This would allow the team to replace him with Davis, a cheaper and more talented player, while adding another piece to the puzzle. This is exactly what the Rays did this offseason with Edwin Jackson. Another scenario could see the Rays moving either Sonnanstine or Davis to the bullpen, which will have a few more openings in 2010 once contracts belonging Troy Percival, Brian Shouse, and Chad Bradford are up.

A lot of scenarios and questions, but as is the case most nights on the baseball diamond, Andy Sonnanstine is in control.

2589737810_e0bd1e92bd_medium

Photo by: Dennis Adair

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Well said

As fans we tend to look for the next big thing (OK, we have Price so maybe the next, next big thing). Wade has been impressive and does look to be a solid addition to any MLB staff. However, with the rotation as it is, and with a couple of guys out of options he will have to wait a little longer.

Just remember — you can never have too much pitching.

by TheGrinch on Mar 4, 2009 12:32 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Most people thought his max potential was a fifth starter type, and while that may still be true over the course of his career, his performance to date has been much better than that.

It really hasnt. He had a 4.38 ERA, and almost pitched 200 innings, he was a good #5 starter. He mightve been slightly better than Edwin Jackson last year.

Nobody is pushing Andy aside without thinking. Therer really isnt much to thin kabout, he flat out isnt in the mix for a starting job down the line so long as Davis and the rest of them stay healthy

The advantage Sonny has over Jackson, which should keep him around, is I think he will make a great reliever and the bullpen will be a place we can stash him away and use him when we need spot starts. He could be of a lot of value there

I dont buy this argument that Andy was phenomenolly better than his ERA shows, but Jackson wasnt, when both guys played with the same defense behind them. All yo uare doing is using the stats you want to use to suggest Sonny is better. How exactly is FIP formulated? A combination of BB, Ks, and HRs right allowed right? Its another incomplete stat, that you CANT use across the board on EVERY pitcher. Is FIP a very good tool to use? Yes. You have to llok at each pitcher on a case by case basis, rather then just runnign them through some set of formulas and detemrining “this is what a good pitcher is”.

by Rays4242 on Mar 4, 2009 1:16 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I know isnt it hilarious

that all that ever matters in a Sonny argument is his walks and Ks? Noit how many hits he ghives up. Noot how hard the ball is hit off of him. Not how wild he is within the strike zone, causing sop many hit balls. Just walks and Ks.

by Rays4242 on Mar 4, 2009 1:18 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

You can read what I said

Why not provide an argument, instead of worrying about my spelling?

This isnt a pszing contest its the internet

by Rays4242 on Mar 4, 2009 1:22 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

You can go ahead and find a new site then.

We’re not putting up with your shitty grammar and typos here. Accidents happen. Proofreading prevents accidents.

by R.J. Anderson on Mar 4, 2009 1:24 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

lol so now you are going to delete my posts if an "accident happens"

This place isnt meant for an exchange of ideas. Its follow the leader around here, and dont have a differing opinion. Or else you will be banned and it will be blamed on….your spelling?

by Rays4242 on Mar 4, 2009 1:25 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Um, did I say I was going to ban you?

Also, no we don’t ban for dissent. Stop being a douche when someone asks you to proofread your comments and we’ll have no issues.

by R.J. Anderson on Mar 4, 2009 1:26 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Uh. No.

It would be nice if you fixed your spelling though.

If we wanted to ban you for not following the leader we could have a while ago.

Swav or Die.

by SRQman on Mar 4, 2009 1:26 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Good lord.

Edwin gave up more line drives, more homeruns, walked more, and struck out less.

You really want to make the argument Sonny gets hit harder, yet he gave up less liners and homeruns. What’s up with that mate?

by R.J. Anderson on Mar 4, 2009 1:23 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

This.

Swav or Die.

by SRQman on Mar 4, 2009 1:23 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

The line drive formula?

Dude, people get paid to classify batted balls. There is no “formula”.

by R.J. Anderson on Mar 4, 2009 1:24 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

A ball hit to the wall is looked at the same as a squeaker between SS and 3B

It has nothing to do with how much people get paid, its the way they classify line drives

by Rays4242 on Mar 4, 2009 1:26 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

And Edwin gave up more.

And more homeruns. And more walks. And struck less out.

by R.J. Anderson on Mar 4, 2009 1:27 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

So ERA isnt reliable

When yo uare talking 2 pitchers who pitch with the same defense behind them, vs the same teams, and teh same hitters?

by Rays4242 on Mar 4, 2009 1:43 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

LOl so eras amongst teammates is worthless?

Again keep worrying about BBs and Ks as that seems to be the only argument for Sonny

by Rays4242 on Mar 4, 2009 1:46 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

And less line drives, and more groundballs

Brad Ziegler had a scoreless inning streak. Brad Ziegler had not met BJ Upton.

by P Brady on Mar 4, 2009 1:48 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Exactly.

Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.

by Sky Kalkman on Mar 4, 2009 1:49 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Statcorner begs to differ

not the same defense behind them. It was obvious both as a fan and from statistical data that the defense, for whatever reason, played worse behind him.

by Navi's_Navy on Mar 4, 2009 5:37 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Play along.

One night Ben Zobrist is playing SS for the Rays. His pitcher is Sonnanstine. He lets four routine ground balls go past him and Sonny gives up two runs on those.

Next night Edwin Jackson walks the bases loaded. He gives up a hard ground ball up the middle that Zobrist wouldn’t touch, however Bartlett and his MVB skills snags the ball and flips to Aki for the inning ending double play.

by Tommy Rancel on Mar 4, 2009 1:37 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

LOL how often doe sthat happen?

Play along…

Over as 162 game season, all the pitchers on one team will benefit the same from the defense behind them

Is that relaly your argument?

That Zobrist was in 1 game while Sonny was pitching and booted 4 balls? LOl

by Rays4242 on Mar 4, 2009 1:45 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

No, his argument is that random variation of errors and hits exist.

Players go through fielding and hitting slumps alike. Why is this so hard to understand?

by R.J. Anderson on Mar 4, 2009 1:46 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

So lets get this straight

Edwin pitches Friday night and all the hitters are having slumps while all our fielders are on top of their games, and then Saturday night all of our fielders go into slumps and all the hitters start ripping the ball?

Its hard to unhderstand because it doesnt make sense

If they pitch on teh same team then ERA is a good tool to compare and contrast with.

by Rays4242 on Mar 4, 2009 1:48 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

No?

First off, did they even pitch back to back? That puts a dent in the idea they faced the exact some variables.

Edwin’s random variation of batted balls may have seen a night when Bartlett was feeling great and made a few spectacular plays. Meanwhile Crawford may have been suffering from a gimp hammy and couldn’t go all out on a ball to the wall.

Sonny may have had a healthy Carl and a tired Bartlett.

That’s why we also use BABIP, it’s more reliable than BAA and gives us an idea whether a hitter or pitcher has been lucky or unlucky.

by R.J. Anderson on Mar 4, 2009 1:52 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Sonny: .312

Edwin .301.

Both were in the realm of average pitchers BABIP. Meaning about the same rate of balls put into play that weren’t homeruns fell for hits.

by R.J. Anderson on Mar 4, 2009 1:55 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

to play devil's advocate

doesn’t that imply that the two were closer than has been assumed?

I could be wrong though

by staplemaniac on Mar 4, 2009 1:56 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

In terms of batted balls?

Yes.

The argument isn’t about batted balls though, it’s about random variation in runs. Sonnanstine does a better job in the areas that you need to in order to prevent runs. Less walks, more Ks, less homeruns, less line drives (which should lead to less hits), etc.

by R.J. Anderson on Mar 4, 2009 1:58 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

One thing I never really bought into

was using HRs in the FIP calculation. Yes, the defense cannot have a bearing on a HR ball, but as I understand, HR/FB has a decent random variation. So, if a pitcher gives up a bunch of FBs but they only go a yard short of the fence as opposed to one who gives up fewer FBs but has a higher ratio his FIP will be higher, but tRA lower is that correct?

I just think that HR/FB isn’t controllable by the pitcher which is why I’m not a HUGE fan of FIP as compared to tRA

I could be wrong though

by staplemaniac on Mar 4, 2009 2:02 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

lol...How often does the defense play exactly the same it did the night before?

And how often the opposing team hit the balls to exactly the same spot?

by Tommy Rancel on Mar 4, 2009 1:47 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

If the same defense is playing every game

for both pitchers, then they are getting the same benefits

Or do you think the defense only struggles in Sonnys 35 starts, and the hitters only slump in Edwins 35 starts?

We arent talking about 1 game for each guy. We are talkinmg an entire season, playing with the same defense and facing teh same opponents

by Rays4242 on Mar 4, 2009 1:50 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

If they had the same exact starting defense 35 times

and faced the same team 35 times with the exact same lineup then you’re argument would have more merit. But they didn’t and no two pitchers will.

by Tommy Rancel on Mar 4, 2009 2:00 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

In the long haul if two pitchers played for the same team they'd get the same defensive benefits

Unless for some reason the manager purposefully starts a worse defensive team for one pitcher than another (perhaps catcher?) or god forbid the team purposefully tries harder for one pitcher compared to the other. Besides those two things I don’t see why the defense for two pitchers wouldn’t be the exact same thing over the long run. Of course that begs the question is a season a big enough sample size to allow for those defensive variations to even out? I’d argue that it probably isn’t, but probably a bit closer than what some folks here seem to believe.

by matthan on Mar 4, 2009 2:18 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

These are my thoughts exactly

Luck should eventually even out over a large enough sample size. The question is: what is a large enough sample size?

I think it quite possible that jackson is an outlier and his peripherals are not as good at predicting runs allowed as other pitchers. Perhaps because he pitches better in the stretch. It’s also possible he’s lucky.

by RaysTheRoof on Mar 4, 2009 2:48 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

In terms of getting the same defense...

 If a manager is shuffling his lineup independent of starter and all positional players give the same effort independent of pitcher I’d say 30 or so starts should be a long enough time frame to reasonably say they got the same defense. That is a long enough sample size where competition should be even (amongst teammates) and the number of flukey things are about even (weird hits, injuries/sick days where a player isn’t 100%, etc).

by matthan on Mar 4, 2009 2:58 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Luck is the wrong word

It is more about the number of times Maddon decides to start Zobrist for Barlett for each pitcher should even out around that number of starts.

Remember we are talking about two pitchers that should on average have the exact same players playing defense behind them. It doesn’t take that large of a sample size for those players to make something close to equal the plays for each pitcher.

It is just statistically improbable that BJ Upton would miss the same fly ball at a significant difference for 1 pitcher than another pitcher given 30 to 40 starts

by matthan on Mar 5, 2009 12:55 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

we all know the formula for Homeruns is flawed.

Rays 2009 Slogan: "Come back with your shield or on it"

by PriceMultiCyYoungs on Mar 4, 2009 4:42 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

and what were their ERAs?

Dont get me wrong, BBs , Ks and HRs allowed are important, but how far seperated were they in Earned Run Average playing with the same defense?

by Rays4242 on Mar 4, 2009 1:28 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

A seeing eye single shouldn't be categorized the same as a line drive or homerun.

That’s just common knowledge and something tRA takes into account.

Fun fact: tRA says Edwin is awful and Sonny is good.

by R.J. Anderson on Mar 4, 2009 1:30 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Also fun fact: The Rays agree with me on Edwin.

Your favorite pitcher sucks. I’m sorry to tell you this, but he does.

by R.J. Anderson on Mar 4, 2009 1:31 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

LOL my favorite player?

So since I defend a guy against a braindead argument, he is my favorite player?

I just think all the SOnny jock sniffers are funny

Please, PLEASE, if you respond to 1 more of my posts here respond to this one. How is it that the Rays think Edwin sucks? Because we traded him? Is that your argument? We trade dhim, so we dont like him? So if we have no room for Niemann and Sonny (eventually) amd trade those 2, then I can come back here and you will tell me that the Rays think he sucks?

by Rays4242 on Mar 4, 2009 1:52 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

New contest:

Provide the best link to an article or extended comment that shows the value of ERA.

RJ promises there will be a prize.

Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.

by Sky Kalkman on Mar 4, 2009 1:51 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

LD, GB, FB 2008

17.0 % 42.1 % 40.9 % Sonnanstine
20.7 % 39.1 % 40.1 % Jackson

So out of a 100 balls in play Andy gave up nearly 4 less Line Drives and turned the majority of those into Ground Balls, sure they have the same defense behind them, but it’s hard to utilize your defense when they’re hitting ropes off of you.

Why yes, I am this big of an asshole in person.

by Sandy Kazmir on Mar 4, 2009 1:28 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

That is clear to anyone who watched last year

Lets just hope Sonny doesnt pitch like he did in every month othe rthan September

by Rays4242 on Mar 4, 2009 1:30 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Well tyhen please start making sense

Sonnys ERA was .04 bette rthan Jacksons, SOnnys BAA was .277 and JAcksons was .281

Plain and simple, there wasnt some huge discrepency between them

Stop shading the numbers to fit the way you want thhem to,

by Rays4242 on Mar 4, 2009 1:33 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

"tyhen"?

Start proofreading your comments now. I’m not going to ask again, and given that you have multiple banned accounts for flaming, I’m beginning to think you’re doing nothing but trolling.

by R.J. Anderson on Mar 4, 2009 1:35 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I watched or listened to over 135 games last year

Andy may have a bad inning and give up a double or two but he keeps it in the park, and what about the other 5 innings where he breezes, nothing comes easy to Edwin.

Why yes, I am this big of an asshole in person.

by Sandy Kazmir on Mar 4, 2009 1:33 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

.281 BAA vs .277

4.38 ERA v 4.42

I dont know how much simpler it gets

by Rays4242 on Mar 4, 2009 1:34 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

So your argument for Sonny v Jackson comes down to "luck"

When Sonny pitched he was unlucky, when JAckson pitched he wasnt?

Again, if they each pitched 1 gamem andn we were basing this all off of 1 performance, I woudl agree with you. You can only say that playing behind teh same defense, and against the same opponents, is important when it happens over an extended period of time. When each guy starts 35 games, they are going to get a similar amount of booted balls by Bartlett, and run into the same amount of hitters who are slumping

by Rays4242 on Mar 4, 2009 1:55 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I think the arguement is that certain balls tend to go for hits more often

Brandon Webb gets a ton of GBs and is a stellar pitcher, because GBs more often go into the defense and less often go for XBH. That’s somewhat controllable by the pitcher. So part of it is that more balls pitched by sonny will have a chance of getting caught by Barty or whomever than those pitched by jackson because Sonny gets more groundballs

I could be wrong though

by staplemaniac on Mar 4, 2009 1:58 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Quickly looking at some numbers:

Name BFt BBt H OBPa
Andy 819 44 212 .3125
Edwin 792 80 199 .3522

Couldn’t find OBP against so after a little legwork here you have that. Slg would be tougher to do since I cannot find XBH numbers, but you can clearly see that Andy is far superior at limiting baserunners (supposedly the whole idea behind Moneyball). No one can succeed long term allowing 35% of the batters you face to succeed.

Why yes, I am this big of an asshole in person.

by Sandy Kazmir on Mar 4, 2009 1:48 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

To extend on this

Name Outs/BF K/BF BB/BF H/BF
Andy .5360 .1514 .0537 .2589
Edwin .5114 .1364 .1010 .2513

Andy gets more outs (The most important thing a pitcher can do) per batter. He does this while simultaneously striking out more batters, walking nearly half as many, and giving up .0076 more hits/batter

Why yes, I am this big of an asshole in person.

by Sandy Kazmir on Mar 4, 2009 2:02 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Correction

Outs/BF would be 1-OBP or for Andy .687 and for Edwin .647. For every hundred guys they face Edwin allows 4 more to get on base.

Why yes, I am this big of an asshole in person.

by Sandy Kazmir on Mar 4, 2009 2:11 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I watched Sonnanstine shut the white sox out in two hours

I guess myself and everybody who ordered Baseball Prospectus 2009 should throw the book out because I saw Sonnasntine and he is a shutout pitcher.

by Tommy Rancel on Mar 4, 2009 1:34 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

lol

How does 1 game vs Chicago or “baseball prospectus ’09” = Sonnanstine is a “shutout pitcher”

by Rays4242 on Mar 4, 2009 1:35 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Hahaha!

I appreciate your humor, even if Mr. Rays4242 doesn’t.

B Rad the Ray Fan

by B Ray on Mar 4, 2009 2:32 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Can't say I agree

Edwin had more than his fair share of hard hit balls last year. I’d agree that he had more hard hit balls than Kazmir or Shields though.

Vogt early, Vogt often.

by Brickhaus on Mar 4, 2009 2:29 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Less homeruns, less line drives.

Start stating facts with actual evidence.

by R.J. Anderson on Mar 4, 2009 1:30 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

line drives isnt "facts"

You are using an unreliable stat

by Rays4242 on Mar 4, 2009 1:31 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Ill be sure to tell 100 years of history

that RJ Anderson says 2 teammates who have identical stats over teh course of a full season are not what the stats are telling us they are

Same ERAs and the same BAA, I dont give a shyt about Baseball Info Solurtions and you have no argument against what I am saying

by Rays4242 on Mar 4, 2009 1:37 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

fuck that

I have to proofread for spelling mistakes or I will get banned, yet people can call Ben Zobrist a cunt sucker or a bag of mashed up assholes in GDTs and its all cool?

What a load of shit. I am going to get banned for spelling, LOL.

by Rays4242 on Mar 4, 2009 1:58 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

GDT are the exeption...

And we use goood grammar when we say Percival is a dick smoker.

Brad Ziegler had a scoreless inning streak. Brad Ziegler had not met BJ Upton.

by P Brady on Mar 4, 2009 1:59 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Ironically, thats the post I make a spelling mistake. ;_;

Brad Ziegler had a scoreless inning streak. Brad Ziegler had not met BJ Upton.

by P Brady on Mar 4, 2009 2:00 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

It's not that you're spelling stuff wrong

it is a pain to read and it makes you sound less credible when every single post has blatant spelling errors. It feels like you’re not fixing your errors just to be defiant.

I could be wrong though

by staplemaniac on Mar 4, 2009 2:06 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Oh hey, I've banned you for that right?

Oh wait, I haven’t.

It’s like you want me to ban you, then you’d go bitch elsewhere about how we’re Nazis.

by R.J. Anderson on Mar 4, 2009 2:06 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

ERAs IS THE GREATEST STAT EVAR

Josh Beckett last year.

Brad Ziegler had a scoreless inning streak. Brad Ziegler had not met BJ Upton.

by P Brady on Mar 4, 2009 1:41 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Where do you see that in these numbers?

Why yes, I am this big of an asshole in person.

by Sandy Kazmir on Mar 4, 2009 1:32 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

wow....

Swav or Die.

by SRQman on Mar 4, 2009 1:17 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Do I need to point out again that...

Pitchers with lots of pitches, those who throw slower, and those who walk fewer batters make for better starters. Pitchers with only a couple pitches, throw hard, and walk a lot of guys make for better relievers.

Sonny is type 1. EJax was type 2. We went over this last year.

Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.

by Sky Kalkman on Mar 4, 2009 1:46 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Sonnanstine had a 4.38 ERA, and Jackson had a 4.42 ERA, but is you didnt know their #s people here would have you convinced Sonny had a 3.80 ERA and Jackson a 5.00 ERA. Yet they pitched every inning with the asme defense behind them

by Rays4242 on Mar 4, 2009 1:21 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

LOL thats the best you got?

Come on I expect you to spin the numbers in some fancy way. Randon variation? LOL

by Rays4242 on Mar 4, 2009 1:22 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Why do you even read the site?

If you put no stock in any of the metrics used why read it? Why annoy us with your dumb arguments? How is a LD a bad stat but it’s ok to use a stat dependent on errors?

by rglass44 on Mar 4, 2009 1:34 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Seriously.

There’s a blogroll on this site to other Rays sites that offer more to what you’re looking for in analysis. Read them, that saves us both the time of dealing with this dead horse.

by R.J. Anderson on Mar 4, 2009 1:37 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

So this is the misconception

I put stock into all those metrics, I just dont run EVERY PLAYER THROUGH them and pretend that it give sus all the answers

They are great, great tools that have charevolutionized teh game of baseball. It doesnt mean everyone knows how to use them properly. Its not the metrics fault its the people using them here.

I usually dont read most of the articles created here, but this is a great place for breaking news and at times good debate. I have no beef with this site

by Rays4242 on Mar 4, 2009 1:39 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I usually dont read most of the articles created here, but this is a great place for breaking news and at times good debate. I have no beef with this site

I don’t eat at mcdonalds, but its a great place for soda so I just bother everyone instide telling them how much the mcnuggets suck.

Brad Ziegler had a scoreless inning streak. Brad Ziegler had not met BJ Upton.

by P Brady on Mar 4, 2009 1:42 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I guess this isnt a place for disagreements

This is just a place for a good circle jerk

by Rays4242 on Mar 4, 2009 1:42 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Okay, here's the thing

You can disagree as long as you make well thought out arguments and actually READ STUFF

Well, what you are doing is A: not paying attention, followed by B: Spewing whatever the hell first comes to mind, ended with C: Using bas spelling and grammar to make your argument indecipherable.

Brad Ziegler had a scoreless inning streak. Brad Ziegler had not met BJ Upton.

by P Brady on Mar 4, 2009 1:45 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Sherdog forums?

Brad Ziegler had a scoreless inning streak. Brad Ziegler had not met BJ Upton.

by P Brady on Mar 4, 2009 1:46 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

*shudders*

I do remember, once upon a time, the main forum was a place for intelligent discourse. Last time I checked, the only holdout from that era was Bugshu, and even he wasn’t visiting the forum much anymore.

Go have fun with Yodascout.

Vogt early, Vogt often.

by Brickhaus on Mar 4, 2009 2:51 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I used to like the forum before they shut down a couple of years back

that got me over here though so no complaints

Why yes, I am this big of an asshole in person.

by Sandy Kazmir on Mar 4, 2009 3:05 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Thats BS

If an argument is made here that someoen doesnt like, its not ok

This is like a big fraternity where everyone hats Edwin and likes Sonny

RJ made a comment a couple days ago that said that there is no argument to be made that says Edwin is anywhere near the pitcher Jackson is. There is obvious bias on this site, not just bloggers reporting on their team objectively. Whatever though, I can usually just skip over it but I decided to debate it this time. And what do you know? I get threatened to be banned if I dont spell right. LOL, like I said you can only disagree with peopel here if it is a shared opinion on this site. It has nothign to do with making valid arguments

btw, I guess RJ knows mmore than Jim Leyland

by Rays4242 on Mar 4, 2009 2:02 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Leyland is so smart!!! ^_^

Brad Ziegler had a scoreless inning streak. Brad Ziegler had not met BJ Upton.

by P Brady on Mar 4, 2009 2:03 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

There is a bias on this site, correct.

We like good players and reasoned arguments. Not LOL I SAWEE IT WITH MY OWN EYES IF U DISAGREE U STUPID AND OR BIASEDD. O U GONNA BAN ME NOW?

by R.J. Anderson on Mar 4, 2009 2:04 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

That wasnt my argument

but again you are biased, and you yourself cant make objective argumetns on Sonnanstine so no surprise you make it out to be that I have no argument and I am just going off of somehting I saw. Completely immature

by Rays4242 on Mar 4, 2009 2:05 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

au contraire

His arguments were purely objective. Statistics can be misleading, but at least they’re consistent.

I could be wrong though

by staplemaniac on Mar 4, 2009 2:07 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

4.42 ERA vs 4.38 ERA

The funniest part of all of this is Sonnanstine had a 4.68 ERA on September 5 and Jackson had a 4.06 ERA and was clearly outpitching Sonny through August, yet people here think SOnny blew jackson away this year

LOL, again ar eyou jsut going to respond and tell me how you have all the factual evidence and I am just making my argument off of “wUT i SAAAWS WITHS MYS EYES”

Jackson was a half run better than Sonny for 5 months of the season, Im sure I wont get a legit response you will either bash my spelling, or pretend Im not making valid arguments when I am

by Rays4242 on Mar 4, 2009 2:09 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Um, Games in September aren't more important than any other game.

Brad Ziegler had a scoreless inning streak. Brad Ziegler had not met BJ Upton.

by P Brady on Mar 4, 2009 2:11 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

again, you completely avoiding the argument

Did Jackson not putpitch Sonny for 5 months? Yes or no

by Rays4242 on Mar 4, 2009 2:13 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Dude...

Why don’t you use Microsoft Word or some other word processing program to type your diatribes? It will only take a few extra seconds and it will fix all the poor spelling and bad grammar for you. It’s hard to take your opinions seriously when you write like a 3rd grader.

by fogelberg on Mar 4, 2009 4:08 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

The argument against using ERA is that there are more advanced metrics out there right now

that take into account things that ERA doesn’t. ERA looks at the result, not the process. Sonny had fewer hard hit balls than jackson did. I mean, if you’re absolutely not going to listen to any statistic besides ERA then what’s the point of this arguement?

I could be wrong though

by staplemaniac on Mar 4, 2009 2:11 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

thats not true

and I still havent been shown that Sonny gave up fewer hard hit balls

by Rays4242 on Mar 4, 2009 2:13 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Real tough guy on the internet

Going to personal insults because Im not a Sonny jock sniffer. Real tough guy, REALLY tough

by Rays4242 on Mar 4, 2009 2:15 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

He's baiting

I could be wrong though

by staplemaniac on Mar 4, 2009 2:15 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

plz quit with the Ad Homonims

both of you. Just explain why you disagree, you don’t have to fucking insult the other.

I could be wrong though

by staplemaniac on Mar 4, 2009 2:18 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

You like to fuck mothers.

I apparently like to sniff jocks.

Yes, I see no issue here.

by R.J. Anderson on Mar 4, 2009 2:19 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Using multiple metrics=piss poor

Using one metric=not….Ok gotcha

by Tommy Rancel on Mar 4, 2009 2:20 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

THIS IS DRB WE ONLY USE ONE STAT

Brad Ziegler had a scoreless inning streak. Brad Ziegler had not met BJ Upton.

by P Brady on Mar 4, 2009 2:20 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

ERA AND BAA.

That’s more than LD%, FIP, tRA, HR/9, K/9, and BB/9.

by R.J. Anderson on Mar 4, 2009 2:20 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Sonny's OBPa = .3125

Edwins OBPa = .3522

Why yes, I am this big of an asshole in person.

by Sandy Kazmir on Mar 4, 2009 2:26 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Edwin's is higher, so he's better

Brad Ziegler had a scoreless inning streak. Brad Ziegler had not met BJ Upton.

by P Brady on Mar 4, 2009 2:26 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

exactly

Why yes, I am this big of an asshole in person.

by Sandy Kazmir on Mar 4, 2009 2:26 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

NO no no

baseball is more like golf

I could be wrong though

by staplemaniac on Mar 4, 2009 2:27 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

If I saw myself in a pair of pants like that

i’d kick my own ass

Why yes, I am this big of an asshole in person.

by Sandy Kazmir on Mar 4, 2009 2:28 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

no, why is it that every argument I make gets twisted?

Its like you ant make a real argument, so all yo ucan do is change my argument and try to make me sound like Im saying things Im not

1) you guys use the stats that you want to use to make Sonny look better

2) you cant use these SABR stats across the board and expect them to predict the future in very case. Some pitchers pitch to contact. SOme pitchers top pitches enduce groundballs, and therefor dont get as many strikeouts. All you do is focus on BB and Ks because they suggest Sonny is an all world pitcher

by Rays4242 on Mar 4, 2009 2:23 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Yup, that's absolutely it.

Welcome to the cult of Sonnanstine.

by R.J. Anderson on Mar 4, 2009 2:24 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

And you using the ONE stat

that makes Jackson better isn’t twisting the argument?

by Tommy Rancel on Mar 4, 2009 2:24 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

tRA takes all of that into account

Jackson: 5.68
Sonny: 3.82

I could be wrong though

by staplemaniac on Mar 4, 2009 2:25 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

ERA SUCKS!

ZOMG THERE ARE MOAR JUDGEMENT CALLZ IN ERA THAN LD%!!!!!11

There now does it make sense?

by rglass44 on Mar 4, 2009 2:13 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

For a site run by guys who don't allow arguing

there seems to be alot of arguing going on. Go figure!

by Tommy Rancel on Mar 4, 2009 2:07 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I know!

Im surprised I havent been banned yet, and told it was “because of my spelling”

by Rays4242 on Mar 4, 2009 2:10 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

wow, that was HILARIOUS!

I, not a SOnny jock sniffer who cant be objective, so I must not be able to breath on my own! Unbelieveable how I survive without my nose in Sonnys jock

by Rays4242 on Mar 4, 2009 2:14 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I hate FIP as a stat. I don't think it's a very good one.

I don’t think Sonnanstine is anywhere near as good as RJ does. I disagree with some of his assessments of players. I make reasonable arguments and we debate things all the time. I’ve been around this site longer than anyone else except maybe Brick and I’ve never been banned.

If you make a reasonable argument, people will listen to you. If you don’t spell well, make nonsensical statements and flame, things don’t end well for you.

Tools Whore

by Tyler on Mar 4, 2009 3:49 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Rec'd

Mostly because Tyler is actually my robo-clone.

Vogt early, Vogt often.

by Brickhaus on Mar 4, 2009 7:35 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Were you here last summer?

It was completely the opposite.

Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.

by Sky Kalkman on Mar 4, 2009 6:36 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Hahahaha!

That’s awesome!

Tools Whore

by Tyler on Mar 4, 2009 3:40 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I still like Niemann better than Sonny

Just sayin’

I could be wrong though

by staplemaniac on Mar 4, 2009 1:48 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I'm starting to feel Niemman as closer with davis replacing sonny mid-year.

Brad Ziegler had a scoreless inning streak. Brad Ziegler had not met BJ Upton.

by P Brady on Mar 4, 2009 1:49 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I feel like that's most likely (for niemann)

but I want to see him get a shot in the rotation. If he would be a stellar starter why not give him the sho there? Howell got a chance to start before getting moved to the pen, Niemann’s been a starter his whole career, and he’s still pretty darned good. I just hope he gets 5-6 starts this year and proves me right.

As for Davis I see him as bp in 09 and replacing either sonny or a pitcher we trade away in 10

I could be wrong though

by staplemaniac on Mar 4, 2009 1:52 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I am not sold at all on Niemman lasting a whole year as a starter.

Brad Ziegler had a scoreless inning streak. Brad Ziegler had not met BJ Upton.

by P Brady on Mar 4, 2009 1:53 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

injuries would be my concern

when healthy his performance has been pretty good, but since he came out of college and spent quite a few years in the minors he’s considered old.

I could be wrong though

by staplemaniac on Mar 4, 2009 1:55 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Injury

Brad Ziegler had a scoreless inning streak. Brad Ziegler had not met BJ Upton.

by P Brady on Mar 4, 2009 1:55 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

End of april...

Brad Ziegler had a scoreless inning streak. Brad Ziegler had not met BJ Upton.

by P Brady on Mar 4, 2009 4:06 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

did he pitch on teh same staff as Sonny last year?

ERA is of much greater importance than you guys act liek anyways. Its called earned run average.

So your little argument about “what if Zobrist boots 4 balls for Sonny and doesn for Jackson”, doesnt really work considering we are talking EARNED run average and none of those runs would be given to Sonny

by Rays4242 on Mar 4, 2009 2:12 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Runs can score in a variety of ways

There’s more to a pitcher than the result. If he’s pitching well and facing Manny Ramirez he might still give up an XBH etc. ERA just doesn’t look at the whole picture.

I could be wrong though

by staplemaniac on Mar 4, 2009 2:13 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

ERA - The stat that says Daisuke Matsuzaka is one of the best pitchers in the league.

Brad Ziegler had a scoreless inning streak. Brad Ziegler had not met BJ Upton.

by P Brady on Mar 4, 2009 2:14 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not sold either way on who's better.

I’d like to see Niemann start an entire season, but I’m not sure I really want that coming in place of Sonny or Price.

by R.J. Anderson on Mar 4, 2009 1:53 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

TRADE GARZA

I could be wrong though

by staplemaniac on Mar 4, 2009 2:09 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

There may be some merit to the idea that EJaxs' peripherals underestimate him.

Particularly the idea that he pitches much better out of the stretch then out of the windup, which allows him to get away wiggle out of tough situations more often than one would expect. Or he could just be lucky. I have no evidence either way.

by RaysTheRoof on Mar 4, 2009 2:00 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Particularly the idea that he pitches much better out of the stretch then out of the windup

This would go back to Sky’s point.

Pitchers with lots of pitches, those who throw slower, and those who walk fewer batters make for better starters. Pitchers with only a couple pitches, throw hard, and walk a lot of guys make for better relievers.

Sonny is type 1. EJax was type 2. We went over this last year.

by Tommy Rancel on Mar 4, 2009 2:02 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, I wonder

if the Rays would have tried him in a bullpen role this year if they kept him?

Unfortunately, there was no good reason to keep him since his trade value was much higher than Hammel or Niemann.

by RaysTheRoof on Mar 4, 2009 2:07 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

This has been awesome.

Also, count me in the “ERA is unreliable” camp. You have to look at other stats to determine the quality of a pitcher. Sonnanstine was a considerably better pitcher then Edwin 2 years ago, and he was a considerably better pitcher then Edwin last year.

Andrew Sonnanstine did not give up a homer to Joe Blanton in the World Series.

by kericr on Mar 4, 2009 2:11 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

rays4242

Will you ever address my points?

How are LDs being judgement calls an indictment, but errors being judgement calls doesn’t invalidate ERA?

by rglass44 on Mar 4, 2009 2:20 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I think the main problem in the Sonny/Jackson thing is their inconsitency

Although to be fair Sonny was far more consistent near the end of the year.

So people seem to remember certain things about certain pitchers. Some folks have the memory of Ejax dominating, but forget the zillion walks. Or perhaps someone rememebrs Sonny pounding the strike zone, but forget the times it appears he is pitching BP.

The truth is we are debating between #4 and #5 starters. Over the long run odds are they will be close and that it won’t really matter either way.

by matthan on Mar 4, 2009 2:23 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

One correction, I think

I’m pretty sure Sonnanstine won’t be arbitration eligible until after 2010, not after this year.

Vogt early, Vogt often.

by Brickhaus on Mar 4, 2009 2:24 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Really? Sweet.

Brad Ziegler had a scoreless inning streak. Brad Ziegler had not met BJ Upton.

by P Brady on Mar 4, 2009 2:24 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Bleh thats getting old.

Brad Ziegler had a scoreless inning streak. Brad Ziegler had not met BJ Upton.

by P Brady on Mar 4, 2009 2:26 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

How would you forecast the futures of the players?

It appears Jackson has more upside, and is far more raw. Since the forecasts are just using historical data it seems to be missing the possibility that Jackson finally “gets it”

Of course given the talent we have on the big squad and in the minors there is no need to risk him never getting it.

I just don’t think we should ignore the maturation process for Jackson. He is far more raw. Sonny pitched in college for god sakes. Jackson was a freaking outfielder in the minors for awhile correct?

by matthan on Mar 4, 2009 2:29 PM EST reply actions   1 recs

He's been in the show for what, 3 years?

His improvement has been stagnant.

Brad Ziegler had a scoreless inning streak. Brad Ziegler had not met BJ Upton.

by P Brady on Mar 4, 2009 2:31 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

....I'm sure he pitched in high school and in little league.

Brad Ziegler had a scoreless inning streak. Brad Ziegler had not met BJ Upton.

by P Brady on Mar 4, 2009 2:33 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I highly doubt it

He grew up on a military base in Germany

Vogt early, Vogt often.

by Brickhaus on Mar 4, 2009 2:35 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Or should I say

the story goes that he never pitched until the Dodgers converted him.

Vogt early, Vogt often.

by Brickhaus on Mar 4, 2009 2:36 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

No problem

I just know he was converted to a pitcher and then rushed. Therefore I’m willing to give him a bit more leeway in his forecasts and maturation as a pitcher than a seasoned college pitcher.

To each his own.

by matthan on Mar 4, 2009 2:38 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

But the upside isn't all that high anymore

If he doesn’t know where his pitches are going by now, it’s doubtful he’ll know where they’re going a few years from now. Very rarely someone who was having control problems figures them out, but usually it’s because of a body control issue and it’s a player with an unusual body type or mechanics who eventually normalizes their motion (i.e. Randy Johnson).

Vogt early, Vogt often.

by Brickhaus on Mar 4, 2009 2:37 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

That is true, but the bulk of your sample size are players who were drafted as pitchers with experience as pitchers

I’m not saying it is likely that he gets noticeably better. I’m saying that there is a possibility. Maybe 10 or 20%? There is also a chance that he regresses. With Sonny we know what we are going to get IMHO. There are pluses and minuses for both guys.

by matthan on Mar 4, 2009 2:40 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Jackson and Sonny 07 vs 08

Jackson
ERA 5.76, 4.42
FIP 4.90, 4.88

Sonny
ERA 5.85, 4.38
FIP 4.26, 3.91

So Jackson and Sonnanstine’s ERAs both fluctuated wildly by about the same amount. Their FIPs on the other hand were both remarkably similar. They both under-performed their FIPs drastically in 07, but Jackson’s ERA was much better than his FIP this year while Sonny’s got closer (but still underperformed).

So the question is how did Jackson “learn” to improve upon allowing less runs by remaining essentially the same pitcher?

by rglass44 on Mar 4, 2009 2:29 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I guess he has me on ignore.

He never addressed one of my reasoned responses even when I called him by name.

Oh well.

by rglass44 on Mar 4, 2009 2:39 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Unfortunately, no.

Otherwise I’d just ignore him. It would save me getting worked up when I need to be doing other things.

by rglass44 on Mar 4, 2009 2:44 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Playing basketball with srq?

Brad Ziegler had a scoreless inning streak. Brad Ziegler had not met BJ Upton.

by P Brady on Mar 4, 2009 2:45 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

U NEEDS TO MODERATE

U CANT IGNOR

Vogt early, Vogt often.

by Brickhaus on Mar 4, 2009 2:49 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

It's not tedious at all!

Brad Ziegler had a scoreless inning streak. Brad Ziegler had not met BJ Upton.

by P Brady on Mar 4, 2009 3:05 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I can't wait for the Aki v. Aybar debates

It would be like a panda bear against a pit bull and I know who I got in that fight

Why yes, I am this big of an asshole in person.

by Sandy Kazmir on Mar 4, 2009 3:14 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

If those occur, they won't be like the Edwin v. Sonny bloodbaths.

At least we’re dealing with two good players in this case, and there’s an actual question as to whether Aybar can field second well consistently.

by R.J. Anderson on Mar 4, 2009 3:19 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

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