BA analyzes middle position prospects
or to retitle it - Is Reid Brignac overrated?
There's an interesting article in BA analyzing the 2008 offensive stats of the 46 position prospects who had at least 300 full season minors ball AB's at 3 position groups - corners (LF, RF, 1B, 3B), middle (SS, 2B, CF), and C's. Good look at the details, though it's important to remember it's just the 1 season, and doesn't include defense.
Link: www.baseballamerica.com/today/prospects/rankings/top-100-prospects/2009/267725.html
Anyway there were 16 middle guys - 2 2B's, 4 SS's, 10 CF's. Perhaps we should expect more O from the CF's, but the key stats covered were contact rate, BB/K rate, speed score (the article explains that one), ISO power, as well as the more conventional slash numbers, and their ages as of April 1.
Briggy had the lowest speed score, BA, and OBP. He was 2nd to last - and pretty distant from the 3rd worst - in BB/K, and 3rd worst in contact rate. He was midpack in SLG, and 6th in ISO power.
And for those contending he's young, he was older than all players but Jason Donald in this group. Now he was the only IF playing at AAA but, excepting Donald, the other 2 at AA were a year or more younger, and the 2 at A+ were 2 years younger, so he's in the age mainstream here.
He seems to be struggling with the bat in ST this year - have his AB's been mostly against majors pitchers or AAA and below guys? That his only hit is a HR seems in keeping with the numbers above. His K rate is better than in his very limited majors time last year. How is he looking at bat?
It seems like an important year for him - he's been slipping offensively, and I know he was hurt last season. I've heard all here say his D is improving - certainly his fldpct. is - but the 2 younger SS listed, Andrus and Escobar, get raves about their D. Donald not so much.
What do you guys think? His offensive numbers really lagged in this group, particularly the contact / OBP oriented ones. Is he starting to project as Juan Uribe - decent fielder, all or nothing hitter?
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54 comments
Comments
Damn Link!
Find it on their Home page under Quick Links, then “By The Numbers”. It’s free to non-subscribers.
by nyyfaninlaaland on Mar 9, 2009 3:19 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I would think it's hard to form a solid opinion
based on just last season. I’ve ragged on Briggy pretty hard about his stick, but last year was far-and-away his worst season. In my mind he has one more year to put it all together and leave me impressed.
Why yes, I am this big of an asshole in person.
by Sandy Kazmir on Mar 9, 2009 8:03 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Khalil Greene has been a more common comparison.
Plus, last year was an outlier offensively. In the past he’s been above average with the bat.
by R.J. Anderson on Mar 9, 2009 11:24 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Above average for his league
Doesn’t mean above average for a prospect.
Vogt early, Vogt often.
by Brickhaus on Mar 9, 2009 12:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
More often than not, it does
if you’re a MI and you’re ARL is good. He’s got both on his side.
Tools Whore
by Tyler on Mar 9, 2009 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He does, but...
He’s trending in the wrong direction, and one would have hoped that he would have at least stayed steady in terms of translated stats. What he’s done this spring training so far doesn’t provide much comfort either.
Vogt early, Vogt often.
by Brickhaus on Mar 9, 2009 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why use a trend over a three year average?
by R.J. Anderson on Mar 9, 2009 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Don't act dumb
Vogt early, Vogt often.
by Brickhaus on Mar 9, 2009 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ugh.
Acting dumb != asking an innocent question.
by R.J. Anderson on Mar 10, 2009 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry
I interpreted that as you being snide.
When you’re dealing with players who are developing on an annual basis, the trends are very helpful to look at. There is a normal development curve, but it’s of paramount importance to make sure that the player is actually following something that resembles that development curve. A lot of players hit a wall at 20 years old and never improve. Others don’t start to show promise until they’ve been in the minors for a few years. While ARL is important, ARL without showing some kind of improvement can be pretty useless.
With prospects, especially guys who came straight out of high school, you’re really not even comparing the same player from year to year, simply because the player is still physically developing. Sure, you can make some good generalizations by looking at what a player has done well or poorly in all three years, but just averaging out the three is a recipe for creating misleading statistics. As I see it, based on what he’s done each year he’s been in full season ball, it’s pretty safe to generalize that (a) he doesn’t have a great batting eye, (b) he has some trouble making contact, and © he has above-average power for a middle infielder. You can come to the same conclusion by taking the averages, but one outlier year one way or the other will skew that evaluation.
Also:
- It’s tough to take numbers in Bakersfield at face value. Yes, he did very well for the league, but due to the odd circumstances in the Cali League, there are tons of players who shine there and never do that well anywhere else, and there are lots of players who look like they should be left for dead there and then go on to do well everywhere else. While you can translate numbers from unusual hitting environments, the level of reliability for those translations is just much lower, and that has to be taken into account.
- There are measurable skills that should improve year to year (or at least remain constant) if the player isn’t stagnating. The most useful one in this regard is K/BB ratio. Despite the fact that Brignac appeared to regress a bit in Montgomery, the fact that he lowered his Ks and increased his walks was still promising. Both measures took harsh turns for the worse last year, which usually means something is wrong (i.e., the player changed their approach in a bad way, the player is having vision problems, the player can’t handle breaking pitches and just does worse when pitchers are able to throw them for strikes, etc.)
- It’s very difficult to make accurate inter-league comparisons, and most of the adjustments don’t work too well. I can see taking a three year average if you’re using fully translated statistics, but Brignac’s translated statistics don’t look too good. His statistics relative to league have generally been decent, but for the most part he’s been in relatively weak leagues in terms of prospects, and as far as I know nobody’s come up with a good way of balancing the relative strength of the players in the league.
Also, keep in mind that this will be the year that ARL catches up with him. If he doesn’t perform at least above-average for league again, his prospect stock will take a huge hit, not that it hasn’t already.
I realize some of this might not jive with the large sample police, but as someone who’s followed prospects for about 8 years and who has a background in statistical analysis (as a former experimental researcher, I understand the virtue of large samples as much as anyone), this is where I’ve come out.
Vogt early, Vogt often.
by Brickhaus on Mar 10, 2009 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
This is what I was looking for.
Thanks.
by R.J. Anderson on Mar 10, 2009 5:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And are more useful for evaluating prospects than large sample averages
Vogt early, Vogt often.
by Brickhaus on Mar 9, 2009 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The fact that they are moving closer to the majors.
What you do against more advanced competition is more relavent than what you did against lower levels. It implies you have topped out and haven’t gotten better with the competition.
Common sense, heard of it?
by rglass44 on Mar 10, 2009 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He's 22-years-old and entering his second year in Triple-A.
I think he passes both smell tests.
by R.J. Anderson on Mar 9, 2009 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He turned 23 in Jan.
Not that that matters all that much – still young for the level.
But it seems to me you would make the counter argument about trend or recent performance vs a 3 year average more times than not. Tell me you think trend isn’t important looking at Melky Cabrera’s 3 years in NY – who started that run at a very young for the level 21. Correct me if I’m wrong, but the fact that his K rate rose, BB rate fell, and both OBP and SLG dropped would typically get a pan from you in analyzing a typical player in the majors. Now he did move up a level. But he did dip off his shorter AA performance of ‘06 in ’07. And his Cal League performance in ’06 was certainly impressive, but it was, well, in the Cal League. A 3 year average that is heavily bolstered by that performance – and it’s still impressive regardless of where it was – at a level 2 rungs below current seems a bit too generous for my tastes. The trend is at least as important, while keeping in mind the higher levels of play and allowing for some decline as a result.
I’m not saying he sucks – I’m just saying that perhaps his status as a top 100 prospect is at risk, and I wouldn’t be so ready to hand him a middle IF starting role just yet. Of course, that could quickly change with a 2009 breakout.
by nyyfaninlaaland on Mar 9, 2009 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The thing you're forgetting.
He know gets rave reviews about his defense. Looking at his batting numbers regressing is only part of the picture. The fact that he is a plus defender at short means he doesn’t need to OPS .900. Anybody who can play good SS and hold their own at the plate in AAA at 22 is a very good prospect especially when you consider that he has hit very, very well in the past.
by rglass44 on Mar 9, 2009 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not forgetting it
I’m aware his defense has gotten positive reviews – his Total Zone runs score on minorleague splits is good. But then it always has been, even in the big error years at the lower levels. But those numbers are league relative too, and looking at the International League in 2008, you’re talking about a lot of career minor leaguers, utility guys, etc. The only actual youngish guy that springs to mind is Lillibridge for Richmond / Atlanta – and he was awful by the same measures. Not trying to downgrade Briggy – teams occassionally keep good defenders there too – I just can’t find an easy way to compare guys based on this data. Cody Ransom of NYY / Scranton had the same TZ runs score in 1/2 the SS chances Briggy had since Ransom was working in a utility role (and that’s all anyone expects of him), but no full year (150 game) projected number. Does that mean they’d be comparable? Minors D stats are rather inadequate.
You guys are lots better at this advanced stats stuff than I so maybe you could add more to the discussion, even if only with scouting input. It seems to me a lot of the “improved defense” argument comes out of the much lowered error count. But if MLSplits TZ runs ratings are to be believed, he was even better on D in A ball despite the E’s. To me, superior SS play comes down to range in a big way, and I’m not so sure Briggy is a rangy guy.
by nyyfaninlaaland on Mar 9, 2009 4:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Range and errors are seperate issues.
Range numbers don’t take them into account, and so unsurprisingly his range has remained largely unchanged. The fact that it has digressed as he’s gone through the sysem could be due to the types of players. Lower in the rungs you have guys that teams still want to be at SS even though they likely have no business there, whereas the AAA ranks are littered with all-glove no-stick SS waiting for the call-up to be a utility guy. As such, he may have improved without it showing. Additionally, if he’s no longer making the errors and getting to a lot of balls he has really improved.
You also have to factor in that Durham is a pretty bad spot for hitters and that he was fairly young for his league. To me at least, Briggy went from a guy who was going to be a great bat if he could stick at SS or else a decent 2B/3B to a guy who will either be a very good SS b/c his defense/power or a fairly average one because he hits for OK power and has a good glove.
by rglass44 on Mar 9, 2009 5:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Durham is not a bad spot for hitters
It’s identical to Fenway.
Vogt early, Vogt often.
by Brickhaus on Mar 9, 2009 5:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I thought Durham (and the IL) suppressed hitting statistics...
or is that just in relation to some other leagues.
by rglass44 on Mar 9, 2009 5:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
IL is relatively neutral overall
And Durham is a slight hitter’s park in the IL. It tends to hurt lefty pitching and help righty hitting a bit due to the wall. But as I said before, it’s identical in dimensions to Fenway. Other than maybe some small differences in the wind patterns, there’s little reason to think it wouldn’t have very similar park effects to Fenway.
Vogt early, Vogt often.
by Brickhaus on Mar 9, 2009 5:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The dimensions may be the same.
but the effects aren’t. Durham is a plus HR park – Fenway isn’t at all. Fenway is an incredible 2B’s park. Durham is more neutral there.
by nyyfaninlaaland on Mar 9, 2009 6:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually I think you could argue they aren't unrelated
The SS that are considered rangy often have more errors because they get to more balls, thus attempt more difficult plays, than the average SS. The BA article linked above strongly pointed this out in discussing the error totals of Andrus and Escobar leading all players in their sample. They are both considered superior defenders because of their range. While “range factor” is sticky stat to use, it does attempt to measure the number of plays a guy is involved in – the assumption being guys with more range get more chances. Now SS’s on GB pitching heavy teams do too, but they pointed out that Escobar had many more chances in less games than any SS in the majors, and Andrus was just ahead of Tulowitski (the majors leader) in range factor score (at 4.97). I think Briggy was at 4.20. In essence, it’s possible he isn’t “getting to a lot of balls”. But I’m open to better data here – I just don’t see where yours is coming from.
I think you could also argue that the International League isn’t “littered with all-glove no-stick SS”. Just look at the guys who played there in 2008 – that isn’t really the case.
The first few guys who’s D numbers I checked on MLSplits were all negative on D at SS. Lillibridge (horrible) & Sergio Santos (- on D) were the first examples. Most guys there are utility types who are more likely to be there because of their bat as a backup in multiple IF positions then as their glove.
The other guys that showed up in the league leading hitters – by getting enough AB’s / PT. Brignac fell a bit short, but had more SS chances than any of these guys – and listed as SS as their most frequent positions were the following: Josh Wilson (- on D), Erick Almonte (+ but lower than Brignac), Mike Rouse (horrific), and Nick Green (who graded better than Briggy in the 150 game progression, but a tick lower in the raw #). The only other guys to consider are Alberto Gonzalez – traded from NYY to Wash and in the majors for a chunk of the year. But his TZ D numbers in prior seasons were better than Briggy’s. Bixler for Pitt had a better D score than Briggy, and Janish for Cincy was pretty close. The rest are AAAA guys – most teams had multiple SS’s during ‘08. In all Briggy’s TZ D rating among Int’l league SS’s that could still be considered “prospects” (a small field) aren’t really exceptional, though to league average they’re good.
And Durham isn’t a punitive hitting park – it’s right on average, and profiles as a very plus power park. So Briggy’s power numbers there (and BA pointed out they didn’t park adjust) are inflated – his SLG was 150 points higher at home, and he had a strong home split overall.
You want tough hitters parks, look at NY’s minors parks. TB’s are all about average or have hitter skews, and all are plus power parks, led by the launching pad that was Vero Beach (3 yr. HR multiplier of 1.30). And Durham was a 1.19 (and 1.25 in 2008) – that’s pretty high. Numbers from BBTF 2008 park multiplier numbers.
I guess to sum up, we’ve got a guy who’s D is good but not necessarily outstanding whose hitting numbers are trending poorly as he rises through the minors. But he is young for his level. Good, but it doesn’t scream Top 100 prospect to me. But I’ll readily admit – he’s among the best prospects at his position, and a turnaround in hitting would change my mind back.
by nyyfaninlaaland on Mar 9, 2009 6:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
When looking at the multipliers
Don’t forget to take into account the league factors. The Yankees do have a lot of parks that suppress HRs though. I remember it used to drive me nuts when the Riverdogs were a TB affiliate. Vero Beach isn’t that much of a launching pad. It’s just a launching pad relative to the rest of the league in a league that, overall, suppresses home runs, and they’ll be playing out of Port Charlotte pretty soon anyway. On average, most of the parks in the Rays system are pitcher’s parks (though two of them are ’hitter’s’ parks in strong pitcher’s leagues), though I’ll be curious to see how Bowling Green plays.
Vogt early, Vogt often.
by Brickhaus on Mar 9, 2009 8:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I went back through the magic of Google
and looked at RJ’s review of Brignac in Jan.
The numbers were okay – but his entire value is based on positional and replacement values. In essence, he’s a slightly under average value SS, since those adjustments are the result of him playing SS relative to all other players.
Hey, league average when a 23 year old at SS isn’t a bad thing. I guess my point is, is it a top 100 thing? Is he a good prospect largely because there aren’t a lot of good SS prospects in full season ball?
by nyyfaninlaaland on Mar 9, 2009 5:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I mean top 100 prospect isn't all that impressive.
He’s not top 25 anywhere anymore, and a league average player at most any position (especially one of need) will likely make the top 100 list.
by rglass44 on Mar 9, 2009 5:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Poor word choice.
I meant doesn’t necessitate stardom more than anything. Comparing him to some other MI prospects he still stacks up well, and he’s below Escobar and Andrus on most lists I think. Do you really see any of the MI prospects in the upper-minors really becoming stars? I see him as at least as likely as someone like Escobar and nearly as likely as Andrus (who has still yet to put together a season close to as good as Brignac’s 06).
by rglass44 on Mar 9, 2009 5:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But that's a hiting thing
Andrus and Escobar’s values are heavily weighted with defensive value, with OBP and speed as their hoped offensive contributions. This is true for most SS prospects. Briggy is out of the box here – he’s kind of a power guy for the position. But if he can’t improve his contact or up his OBP, he’ll have trouble sticking. And he isn’t showing that in ST.
That’s why I went for the Juan Uribe comp in the post. Still could have a decent career – Uribe’s done okay.
by nyyfaninlaaland on Mar 9, 2009 6:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What's the big difference between Greene and Uribe anyway?
People keep bringing up a Greene comp, but the reason Greene looks good is because he’s done that at his home park. I wouldn’t argue if you said Brignac would end up putting up similar raw statistics to Greene, but then again, that’s basically the same raw statistics as Juan Uribe.
Vogt early, Vogt often.
by Brickhaus on Mar 9, 2009 8:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Uribe did it in good power parks and doesn't have quite the defensive value.
Either way, if Uribe is the downside that’s a relatively useful player.
They are both just finishing up their 6-7th year with Greene being worth 10 wins and Uribe worth 6.3. Greene would have been a bit higher without injuries, and Uribe is hurt (maybe) by playing ssecond. If Brignac can provide +5 defense at SS or +10 at 2B (about what Uribe has done) then he should be worth quite a bit through his first contract (or until he become expendable).
At this point I highly doubt he becomes a star, but he is fairly likely to become league average at 2B or SS. That is a pretty valuable player (especially considering the dearth of “stars” in the upper levels of the minors among MIs.
by rglass44 on Mar 10, 2009 8:57 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Let's hope
I’d live with league average for a starting SS. League average is substantially below starting league average though, especially at shortstop where the replacement level players tend to be worse than at other positions.
Vogt early, Vogt often.
by Brickhaus on Mar 10, 2009 11:38 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Andrus and Escobarās values are heavily weighted with defensive value.
That’s just the thing, though, Brignac’s defensive value has improved to the point where he is almost as good as them defensively. The scouting reports are there for him regarding his defense, and he grades out the past using minor-league splits defensive numbers. So it isn’t too much of a stretch to think he could be close to them in defensive value.
Their offensive skill-sets are where the three are different. Escobar relies on high-contact % to get on base (because he doesn’t walk), whereas Andrus and Brignac have similar contact concerns (granted Brignac’s are a little worse) but walk more. Escobar and Andrus make up for their lack of power (at this point at least) with speed, but what’s more valuable 20 HRs or 30 steals?
by rglass44 on Mar 10, 2009 9:07 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Escobar lunched him in '08
though not as good in years priror.
I wonder how much these numbers can be relied on anyway? Even the developers suggest they’re still works in progress.
by nyyfaninlaaland on Mar 10, 2009 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's the concern.
Escobar really shined last year, but was nowhere close in prior years. Briggy has been very good pretty much every stop.
by rglass44 on Mar 10, 2009 11:56 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not sure if I'd say he's been pretty good every stop
I’d characterize it more like he was very good at one stop, decent at two others and pretty weak at the most recent.
Vogt early, Vogt often.
by Brickhaus on Mar 10, 2009 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That was only regarding his defensive numbers as compared to the other two.
by rglass44 on Mar 10, 2009 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not too much of a stretch I guess
But I’m still a bit skeptical. On the con side, he’s not that quick and he’s still fairly error-prone. On the pro side, he’s tall (so his ‘fall-down’ range is greater) and he has a good arm. He doesn’t LOOK like a good defender to me from what I’ve seen, but I’m not a professional scout. If he gets 500+ innings of major league ball under his belt and he actually grades out as an above-average defender by most of the metrics, then I’ll start giving him more credit for being a good defender. Lord knows there are enough people the scouts have said were good defenders who have turned out to be butchers and vice-versa.
Vogt early, Vogt often.
by Brickhaus on Mar 10, 2009 11:41 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But to answer your "star" question
no, not really. Escobar looks the best to me, but the Brewers have Gamel seemingly coming to take 3B (maybe), so where does Hardy go? Trade? Or does Esco move to 2b – then what about Weeks?
Andrus has a real shot to look good since it appears he’s being handed the job in a great hitters’ park. So he could get some attention.
Otherwise there’s not a lot out there – maybe Triunfel, though he seems to be shifting to 2B. But then things will change as some lower level guys have another year to show their stuff.
I actually have some hope for NY’s mid-IF guys throughout the system at both 2B and SS, but they have to continue to progress. That each at each level seems to have upside is a good thing, and none are “aged out” – our 4 full season SS’s will be 23, 21, 22, and 20, 2B’s 24, 23, 22, and 21 from AAA down to A each, plus some good looking guys below that. Of course, we also have some NRI’s in camp that are older and for depth at AAA – like Angel Berroa! – so we’ll see how that all shakes out. But we also have a 22 year old 2B/SS selected 2nd in the Rule 5 from AA by Seattle that could come back to us as well.
by nyyfaninlaaland on Mar 9, 2009 7:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Gamel will play 3B
And monkeys might fly out of my butt
Vogt early, Vogt often.
by Brickhaus on Mar 9, 2009 8:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed - but where else?
That’s their empty spot. Is he gonna displace Fielder, Braun, or Hart?
by nyyfaninlaaland on Mar 10, 2009 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Trade or injury.
The guy is an absolute butcher. You gotta figure he can’t stick there in the nigs. I believe Braun is supposedly the better 3B of the two.
by rglass44 on Mar 10, 2009 11:49 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Of those three, Hart seems most likely
But they have a good hitter at a position where they don’t need him and lack pitching depth. I suspect either he or Hart will get traded.
Vogt early, Vogt often.
by Brickhaus on Mar 10, 2009 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Frankly, another thing that struck me
in this aticle is that 10 of the top 100 prospects are CF’s. An impressive group of coming guys for that position – Atlanta has 2 of them in Jordan Schaefer and Gorkys Hernandez. Guess Juan Pierre is kinda screwed.
by nyyfaninlaaland on Mar 9, 2009 1:28 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Their OF will be great in a few years (more than likely).
Hernandez, Shaefer, and Heywardare all very, very good with the leather. That defensive OF would be awesome.
by rglass44 on Mar 9, 2009 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Plus great depth of pitching to come
particularly this year in A+ & A ball, and that ignores Hanson, Morton, Reyes, Medlin, and Parr in the top levels, plus an older Campillo who filled in nicely last season. Considering they have 4 starters signed or on option for ‘10 (the injured Hudson can be picked up at $3.5 MM less than ’09) plus Jurrgens, that’s some nice depth.
by nyyfaninlaaland on Mar 9, 2009 1:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

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