Maddon Hints about David Price's Rotation Status

by Tommy Rancel on Mar 9, 2009 11:45 AM EDT

Without saying it, Joe Maddon pretty much said it. We've all expected it, but now it seems the Rays are publicly hinting toward David Price starting the season in Durham rather than the Rays rotation.

"We’re looking at this from a developmental perspective, and with that, I think the changeup getting to become a better pitch is very big for us, the command of the fastball is very big for us, and then 130-some innings last year is very big for us," Maddon said. "So we’re trying to consider a whole bunch of things with David, and we still consider him in the developmental process, whereas a lot of people, I think, see him as the finished product.

"That’s where the confusion lies, I think, from the outside looking in, and I understand that. I get it. I totally get it. Because if you were watching the playoffs last year you see him as the finished product, but we don’t necessarily see it there yet. But we don’t believe he’s far off. So if he doesn’t make it out of this camp as the fifth starter, we see that as being OK, because we have these other things that we think he needs to work on."

We all remember Price shouting with his arms in the air after the 27th out in Game seven, but the Rays obviously feel that he isn't a "finished product" and would like him to work on things such as fastball command, the changeup and limiting innings. None of us are scouts or claim to be, so we'll just have to take the professionals word on this. Maddon said the Rays reserve the right to change their plans so I won't fully eliminate Price just yet, but the fifth starter battle is looking like a two man race between Jason Hammel and Jeff Niemann.

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Hard to argue against

If they are trying to limit his innings (as they should), it makes sense to keep him back (at a minimum) until they’ve gotten a good look at the duo that they can’t freely demote. In a perfect world I’d like to see him push one of them out of the organization by May, perhaps sharing the 5th starter’s job for a while.

by GomesSweetGomes on Mar 9, 2009 12:02 PM EDT reply actions

Or to put it more simply

As much as I’d like to see this, the possibility of this makes me give the Rays the benefit of the doubt.

by GomesSweetGomes on Mar 9, 2009 12:14 PM EDT reply actions

i don't think this was ever a race...

it’s been Nieman’s job to lose all along, and so far he hasn’t lost it.

by davidsmarch on Mar 9, 2009 12:14 PM EDT reply actions

You know why this is lame?

And it’s not just because I love Price but Maddon and Friedman might as well come out and say that Niemann will be a late inning RP. And that means we put Hammel in the rotation. So even if Price isn’t a “completed projected”, who wants to argue that Hammel is the better pitcher?

Evan Longoria and David Price - the fight for my heart

by joeybw on Mar 9, 2009 12:14 PM EDT reply actions

completed project*

Evan Longoria and David Price - the fight for my heart

by joeybw on Mar 9, 2009 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions

It's a lame excuse

But not a lame decision.

by GomesSweetGomes on Mar 9, 2009 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions

Keep in mind Maddon was also hinting about limiting his innings

But I don’t think anyone here is ready to make the argument that if they both went into MLB action today, that Hammel would outpitch Price

by GomesSweetGomes on Mar 9, 2009 12:18 PM EDT up reply actions

Limited his innings is fine with me

He shouldn’t say “he’s not a completed project” though because NO ONE, not even Hammel thinks he will pitch better. Which of those 2 were left off the playoff roster btw? I guess to be fair, Price was only a RP, though.

Evan Longoria and David Price - the fight for my heart

by joeybw on Mar 9, 2009 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions

Well

I remember hearing last spring about how ‘Evan has yet to show us he can respond to failure’, or something similar. In hindsight this was complete baseballism b.s. But honestly, I don’t think most fans were ready to hear ‘We are keeping Evan down because it gives us more leverage in our ongoing extension talks’…nor do I think most fans now want to hear ‘We know David is good, but we’re not just playing for 2009’. I wouldn’t take the quotes at face value.

by GomesSweetGomes on Mar 9, 2009 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions

And believe me, I share your frustration

And look forward to a time when we have the resources to make these decisions with a much greater margin of error in the event of failure…He’s just too valuable for us to replace, and I understand (though don’t always agree with) the caution.

by GomesSweetGomes on Mar 9, 2009 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions

i don't know why you assume Hammel is the 5th starter and Niemann will go the pen,

who right now is our long relief guy? It’s not Balfour, Percy, or Shouse. It won’t be Nelson, who is more of a 50inning guy. It won’t be Howell b/c he is just too damn good, yeah he can go 2 inning spurts, but he’s not a mop up guy. it’s sure as shit not Wheeler, so if we’re putting Niemann in to be a late inning guy, who’s going to mop up a blowout, or pitch 3 innings should the starter go out after 4 2/3 innings? it’s not going to be any of the other players named, it’s going to be whoever goes out of Niemann vs Hammell. i doubt Maddon is going to toss Niemann into that roll full time. the more likely scenario is that Hammell ends up long relief, like he did last year, and that Niemann is the 5th starter.

by davidsmarch on Mar 9, 2009 12:23 PM EDT reply actions

Here

Maddon

"You always think about the possibility [of Niemann being a reliever], and then when you actually see it, it becomes even more of a possibility," Maddon said. "You put him in late in a game and see 96, 97 mph and the downhill look, and it’s like, ‘Holy (cow)’ [ed. note: Romano substituted ‘cow’ for another word to protect the innocent]…"Now we’re going to give him a chance, absolutely, to be the fifth starter. But there’s a real possibility he could go to the bullpen and really help us. He’s the kind of guy you’d have to nurture through, but he’s got real potential."

Friedman

His first big-league relief appearance was mopping up an 11-1 blowout victory against the Twins. A flyout in the eighth, and then two groundouts and a strikeout swinging in the ninth. Nothing particularly memorable except for the impression it left…"That was among the top five most dominant innings I saw last year," said Rays executive vice president Andrew Friedman…"That one inning of relief was absolutely stupid,"

Evan Longoria and David Price - the fight for my heart

by joeybw on Mar 9, 2009 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions

that tells me nothing,

other then last year when we had a full rotation Niemann looked good out of the pen.

by davidsmarch on Mar 9, 2009 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions

If anyone here said what Friedman said

We’d be torn to shreds. In fairness, as a GM, he has to tailor his quotes to beat-writers and casual fans. And I can’t argue with the actual decisions. Again, I wouldn’t react too strongly to anything the RFO says at this point.

by GomesSweetGomes on Mar 9, 2009 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions

Why does the mop-up guy need to be someone who stinks?

Vogt early, Vogt often.

by Brickhaus on Mar 9, 2009 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions

he doesn't,

but you don’t put a “dominant” relief pitcher in such an unimportant role.

by davidsmarch on Mar 9, 2009 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions

To make it short and sweet

I think we should be carrying our 12 most talented and ready pitchers and 13 best hitters(outside of Riggans who needs to be there because he is a C)

In this organization, Hammel is FAR from one of our 12 most talented pitchers

Evan Longoria and David Price - the fight for my heart

by joeybw on Mar 9, 2009 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions

it'll never happen

our 7th man out is never going to be a dominant pitcher, it’s a complete waste of talent. they would trade him for value and sign a mop up guy before they did that. hammell on the other hand fits the bill perfectly.

by davidsmarch on Mar 9, 2009 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions

I think they've been trying to trade Wheeler

but haven’t been successful due to his contract. What’s the harm if Wheeler ends up being the mop-up guy?

Vogt early, Vogt often.

by Brickhaus on Mar 9, 2009 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions

And why can't Cormier be the mop up guy?

He has a specialist role in some close games, but he’s always been a starter before last year.

Vogt early, Vogt often.

by Brickhaus on Mar 9, 2009 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions

wheeler or Cormier could,

though i don’t know if wheeler is stretched out that far, and you’re assuming Cormier makes the BP, which would mean either niemann or hammel was traded.

by davidsmarch on Mar 9, 2009 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions

Or someone gets 'injured'

Vogt early, Vogt often.

by Brickhaus on Mar 9, 2009 5:45 PM EDT up reply actions

Case in point

JP Howell’s usage last April and May.

by Lurch's Lobbyists on Mar 9, 2009 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions

that was before he was considered an ace out of the pen

by davidsmarch on Mar 9, 2009 5:03 PM EDT up reply actions

What about the money aspect?

I’m not sure exactly how it works since Price did see action last spring, but the Rays saved a year of free agency (and thus were in better shape to negotiate his contract) by having Longo start the season in Durham last year.

I’d have to be fairly confident that comes in to play a bit in this decision – along with all the other questions (innings, can’t send the other guys to Durham) that factor in.

by TallMatt on Mar 9, 2009 1:36 PM EDT reply actions

I'm sure arbitration status is a factor

As Price can opt out of his yearly salary as soon as he gains arbitration eligibility.

by GomesSweetGomes on Mar 9, 2009 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions

The Hammel/Niemann argument is basically over 2 or 3 starts.

Whoever “wins” the job will be sparringly used in April and most of us expect Price to be up by mid May, if not earlier. If the Rays are truly dead set on Niemann out of the bullpen, I’d rather them just start him out in that role so he can get acclimated to pitching multiple times a week and getting a warm-up routine that works.

by Tommy Rancel on Mar 9, 2009 1:41 PM EDT reply actions

Keep in mind, though,

that chances are we will lose a pitcher or two to injuries throughout the season. We were super lucky last year, but if someone (likely) goes down for a month or so, having Niemann ready to go with the experience of pitching 3-4 starts early in the season will be of great benefit to the team.

I could be wrong though

by staplemaniac on Mar 9, 2009 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions

I don't think working in the pen for a month or two will make Niemann forget how to be a starter.

But that extra month could help him get more comfortable as a reliever. I see your concern, but most of his professional pitching experience has come as a starter. The problem I would see is getting him stretched out again to be able to go five or six innings.

by Tommy Rancel on Mar 9, 2009 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions

Wow

Seems similar to last year’s argument with Longoria. All I hope for is the fact that the 2-3 starts that Niemann/Hammel start doesn’t in the end turn out to be the difference in a spot in a pennant race. Yeah, I am being cliche here, but each game on the schedule is worth the same and if Price is truly a “finished” product, then why send him back down?

Hate to see this argument come up again though. I agree about Hammel not being one of the top 12. I just hope this decision doesn’t bite them after the fact.

Joe

by joedobr on Mar 9, 2009 1:46 PM EDT reply actions

I don't think Price is a "finished" product

the way Longo was last season. I didn’t see any reason for Longoria not to play from day 1 besides the money thing. As for Price, he needs to refine his change-up, and it will be much more difficult to control his innings at the Major League level then at Durham. He simply cannot pitch every fifth day for an entire season. I would rather him miss a few games at the beginning than a few games at the end because, hopefully, those games at the end are in the playoffs and if he’s been rested to start the year, his arm won’t fall off.

How Price’s innings are managed this season is going to be critical for his future.

I could be wrong though

by staplemaniac on Mar 9, 2009 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions

I don't want them to do with Price what the Skanks did with Joba

If he’s going to be a starter, leave him as a starter. Don’t have him work as a reliever to start the year, then go back to the minors to get stretched out, and then come back as a starter.

We all know he needs to work on his changeup, and that’s not going to happen while pitching out of the pen. It is not a pitch he can throw consistently right now and you only get better with a pitch when you can use it in a game in any count and not just when you’re ahead 0-2 or 1-2.

Let him go to Durham for 4-5 starts, and then make a decision with where Hammel is.

What's on my mind

by Jason Collette on Mar 9, 2009 1:55 PM EDT reply actions

I hadn't heard any talk from anyone knowledgeable about the situation

(i.e. people who know more about price than "wow he pitched in the playoffs last year and was a dominant reliever, he should be there forever imatard) about him going to the bp anywhere. I don’t see that happening.

Durham rotation is almost a certainty at this point.

I could be wrong though

by staplemaniac on Mar 9, 2009 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions