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Can the Rays afford to keep BJ, David Price, et al?

Arguably, the main reason that the Rays were able to contend in 2008 was the presence of acquired and drafted pre-arbitration talent. ALCS MVP? Matt Garza (2.9 wins). OBP leader? Bossman Junior (4.6 wins). Future ace? David Price (not that many wins in 2008 but he did save Game 7 of the ALCS, throw me a bone here). Innings eater? Andy Sonnanstine (3.6 wins). All of these players combined earned less than Carl Pavano in 2008, yet contributed almost 12 wins above replacement to the team. The problem is that many of these players will soon be due for arbitration, and barring any poor performances (another issue in itself), they will be due for some pretty big raises. BJ has already indicated his preference to go "year-to-year" in arbitration, seeking top dollar for his talents. Sonnanstine and Garza are both up for arbitration after this season and will certainly both look for significant raises. Friedman has indicated in his tenure his preference to sign these young stars to below-market, long-term deals that are generally seen as "Club Friendly" (see: Evan Longoria, Jamie Shields, Willy Aybar, Scott Kazmir) in order to control costs. The problem is that a player of Upton's caliber could command anywhere from $3 to $8+ million in his FIRST year of arbitration, and if BJ posts a 20/20 (or even 30/30) season with a 900+ OPS, he will look for Ryan Howard money.

I just don't see how the Rays will be able to afford Bossman, Garza, Sonnanstine, Price, and several others through the arbitration process. Philly saw a massive increase in payroll this offseason with few additions to the team thanks to the arbitration process, limiting their flexibility in free agency to the point that they couldn't cough up the change to sign an established set-up type like Will Ohman. I don't think Sternberg and company can afford such cost uncertainty, especially in this economic climate.

The Marlins faced similar issues after their WS wins and chose to deal with the issue by dealing away their arb-eligible stars for younger, cheaper talent. The question is the return - will front offices continue to pay big in prospects for arb-eligible guys who command higher, near market-value contracts? I don't think so, and the Rays may face a problem in this area.

To make it simple: trade value is a function of many things, but the four most important factors are cost, production, length of control, and need. Theoretically, at the moment of signing, a free agent carries "0" trade value if he signs with the highest-offering team because he is playing for what he is worth on the market. Conversely, young players signed to team-friendly contracts (Evan and James) are highly valuable because they produce, they are under control for a long time and below market value, and they are on the upswing of their careers.

I would like to see what you guys think will happen to the pre-arb and arb-eligible players: BJ, Garza, Sonnanstine, Price, Bartlett, etc. I, for one, do not think that the Rays will be willing to go year-to-year with high-production guys like BJ and (hopefully) Price. It's therefore my prediction that Sonnanstine will be traded after the end of this year (when he is up for arbitration) and replaced with Davis or Niemann in the rotation. Similarly, I think that BJ will eventually find himself in a new uniform in return for some good hitting prospects and depth in our system.

(By the way, I am still working on the discrete differential simulation project I was talking about earlier. I'm finishing the programming part of it, which I will probably end up posting here in about a couple of days, but I still need a little help with the data side. In particular, I need to be able to produce a "PA log" of the player, meaning all of his PA's from his very first appearance numbered and tied to a specific outcome - 1B, 2B, 3B, HR, BB, SOS, SOL, GO, FO, etc. I asked a little earlier about this and got some help but I'm still looking for a good source of downloadable player data that would include this type of information, specifically the SOS/SOL and GO/FO outcomes. A lot of the data sources only include "out" and "strikeout" as out types rather than breaking them down in this way, so that would be helpful if anyone can give me a link or a tip. Or, if you know of a good way to export game logs/download game logs, specifically in the PA-outcome format, please let me know.)

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I think we keep Upton

The cost will be high, but we don’t really have a solid replacement (although I guess we could get one in a trade). I think it is more likely we trade or let CC go. I also wouldn’t be surprised if we traded Garza, Kazmir, and/or Sonnanstine within the next couple years. We certainly are going to see some players leave. However I do think we have enough depth in the minors to replenish in certain areas where we should not see a major drop off.

Personally here is what I think:

-We trade Neimann soon (Price up)
-We let CC walk or trade him within the next year (DJ up hopefully)
-Let Pena walk
-Next offseason we trade Kazmir, Garza, or Sonnanstine. Who we trade? I dunno. It depends on the value. Kind of the same issue with Neimann and Hammel this year (Davis up)
-Sign Upton to a long term deal within 2 years. I think we give him about what his market value is. Upton is just so valuable that I don’t think the team will let him go.
-Probably trade another of the Kazmir, Garza, Sonnanstine bunch

We just have a bunch of SP in the pipeline.

Plus we have to see what attendance is like. If the Rays go deep into the playoffs and if they average 32+ then I don’t think the public will take too kindly to truly trimming payroll. We have to cut somewhere due to all the raises, but if we perform they way we should (and the public shows up) then I’d have to imagine payroll increases to somewhere in the 75m range next year. I’m sure Friedman and Sternberg realize winning gets them a fancy stadium. And they know they have to wait a couple years due to the economy.

by matthan on Apr 6, 2009 9:00 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

They should probably trade Crawford and Kazmir

Both of those guys are making relatively high amounts of money over the next few seasons, and they could get a hell of a lot in a trade.

vivaelbeƱsheets

by vivaelpujols on Apr 6, 2009 9:32 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

OT: Niemann?

So What i don’t get is if niemann does inexplicably awesome, do we trade him to call price up or do we wait until september to call price up? I know most of us want price up early but what would happen. Just a curious question

by CB,DT,LB,OR DE is what we need on Apr 6, 2009 10:08 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Everyone's like OMG DAVIS etc

but I think Niemann should stay with the team, cost-controlled and talented. He could definitely pitch for the Rays when the move someone to give Davis more time to prepare. IDK, maybe not.

I could be wrong though

by staplemaniac on Apr 6, 2009 7:02 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I would

Without knowing what they are thinking or what true market value is:

C.C. – Worst case we have a gabe platoon in right (or Ruggiano/Perez) and Joyce in left if Jennings/Ruggiano/Perez aren’t ready.

B.J. – I’d entertain offers for B.J. although I think some teams will be scared away by the “lazy” tag he has unjustly gotten. If we can get a boat of prospects and two of our four close OF prospects pan out (DJ/Perez/Ruggianno/Joyce) then I think its a safe move.

Aki – I love Aki, but at at 4.25-5.25 mil (even if that is a relatively cheap price) he isn’t worth it. If we could’ve gotten EYJ… man, that would’ve been splendid. We can play Aybar there until a more suitable replacement is found, I’m just not sure if Aybar can effectively handle the position; lets hope so.

Bartlett – I think his defense is going to bounce back to Minnesota levels, and who knows what happened to his walk rate last year. Regardless, he will get more than he deserves in arbitration, and probably has some above average trade value.

Wheeler – I think he gets too much flack around here, but he is too expensive considering what else we have. He should bring back something of interest.

Bradford – Not sure if he has any trade value, but the contract is up their, and as much as I like him he isn’t worth it.

Kazmir – Too much money given what else we have.

Garza – I bet he would fetch a pretty penny, but I don’t know how much he would get from arbitration.

2010

C – Navarro – 2.25 WAR
1B – Pena – 3.20 WAR
2B – trade pickup – 1.5 WAR
SS – Reid Brignac – 2.0 WAR
3B – Evan Longoria – 4.75 WAR
LF – Matt Joyce – 2.0 WAR
CF – Fernando Perez – 2.0 WAR
RF – Gross/Ruggiano/Kapler – 2.0 WAR
DH – Pat Burrell – 2.25 WAR

BN – John Jaso
BN – Ben Zobrist
BN – Ruggiano/Kapler

SP – Shields – 3.75 WAR
SP – Price – 3.0 WAR
SP – Sonnanstine – 3.0 WAR
SP – Davis – 2.0 WAR
SP – Niemann – 2.0 WAR

I mean it doesn’t make me incredibly excited, but guys like Talbot should be able to step in if one of the starters doesn’t pan out, the bullpen can get pieced together. I think our division makes a team like this impossible as we frankly wouldn’t compete, although this is a defense-heavy, cheap lineup with enough firepower to score some runs. I feel we would have completley reloaded our minor leagues, and we would still be an incredibly young team. I mean thats a what, an 83-88 win team? Its a shame that it wouldn’t necessarily compete, but it would be alot cheaper and if any piece of that could overcome their projection then…

by Navi's_Navy on Apr 6, 2009 12:01 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

That team does not scare me nearly as much as this years

Do what you love to do and give it your very best. Whether it's business or baseball, or the theater, or any field. If you don't love what you're doing and you can't give it your best, get out of it. Life is too short. You'll be an old man before you know it.

-Al Lopez

by Sandy Kazmir on Apr 6, 2009 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The point of assembling the above team

was to save money… I think its understandable that its not nearly as good a team.

by Navi's_Navy on Apr 6, 2009 12:09 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

You know who saved a lot of money

the nazis

Do what you love to do and give it your very best. Whether it's business or baseball, or the theater, or any field. If you don't love what you're doing and you can't give it your best, get out of it. Life is too short. You'll be an old man before you know it.

-Al Lopez

by Sandy Kazmir on Apr 6, 2009 12:36 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Navi's_Nazis?

"The dark secret of LL is that it only exists so I can one day moderate Graham" ---Robert

by Taylor H on Apr 8, 2009 2:56 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It wouldn't surprise me if the Rays sign resigned our guys,

But if we do not we are set up just nicely for the future.

Your 2011 Rays

C: Navi
1B: Aybar
2B: Tim Beckham
SS: Brignac
3B: Longo
RF: Joyce
CF: Perez
LF: Desmond Jennings
DH: Veteran FA or Chipper Jones!

Bench: Jaso (1B/3B), Ashely (Catcher), Veteran OF Backup, Zobrist/Elliot Johnson

Starters: Price, Shields, Davis, Hell-Boy, Rollins

Relievers:
Howell, McGee, Talbot (Closer), Justin Garcia, Gorgan, Veteran Lefty, A. Rodriguez (Long Man)

In the name of Shinji Mori, we shall win!

by thebaddancingraysfan on Apr 6, 2009 12:49 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Depressing

What a depressing read before the most anticipated season in franchise history.

The kind of conversations are exactly why the business of baseball needs to be re-worked. Salary cap, more revenue sharing, …whatever.

by Tamparays01 on Apr 6, 2009 4:06 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

The point of a salary cap from a competitive standpoint is that it gives teams with smart front offices a better chance to win

the way baseball is set up, smart front offices that can manage the team-controlled years of players well already have an advantage – it’s a very legit question whether the Rays will be able to hold onto the stars they’ve grown, given that some of them are among the brightest young stars in all of baseball

by seattlebruin on Apr 6, 2009 6:42 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

They recycled Kermit the Frog!

NOOOO!!!

In the name of Shinji Mori, we shall win!

by thebaddancingraysfan on Apr 6, 2009 9:27 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

YES YES YES YES YOU WIN

"The dark secret of LL is that it only exists so I can one day moderate Graham" ---Robert

by Taylor H on Apr 8, 2009 2:57 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

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