That Was Awful

by R.J. Anderson on May 12, 2009 8:34 PM EDT

Lots of green, and when Sonnanstine did throw it over the plate the batters crushed it. Awful control of the slider and non-cutter fastballs tonight. At some point he has to put together more than one good start this season.

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sonnanstine sucks,

that is all.

by davidsmarch on May 12, 2009 8:58 PM EDT reply actions

This is why the Rays can't trade Kaz right now.

Unless Talbot, Davis, or Price is better right now, and they aren’t.

"Where we all wait in earnest with pudding in hand for the Upton comet to sail through the roofed skies, so that we may meet Him."

by kericr on May 12, 2009 9:47 PM EDT reply actions

Are you high?

Price not better than Sonny ….WOW

by 813Dynasty on May 18, 2009 1:57 AM EDT up reply actions

this is also why we can't go on a winning streak,

b/c one of our pitchers seems to blow up every time through the rotations. just give us a couple weeks without a complete meltdown guys!!!

by davidsmarch on May 12, 2009 10:01 PM EDT reply actions

Does this mean

Garza is our stopper of sorts since his road numbers are more stable than Shields?

by Transplanted on May 12, 2009 11:07 PM EDT reply actions

Somewhere Edwin Jackson is laughing...

by dannythegreat on May 13, 2009 12:45 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs

All things being equal to where they are today, do you still make that eal?

And i’m wondering, did the Rays offer Sonny instead of Jackson, or did the Tigers insist on Jackson?

As i have repeatedly said, you’re a little more patient with a guy with Jackson’s stuff v a Sonny who i predict had a ‘career’ year in ’08

by Raymondo on May 13, 2009 8:25 AM EDT up reply actions

Yes, Edwin was arbitration eligible Sonny was not

That extra money was spent else where. I don’t see how people fail to realize this.

www.draysbay.com

by Tommy Rancel on May 13, 2009 9:03 AM EDT up reply actions

I have brought this up too

It doesn’t stay in their brains.

by Lurch's Lobbyists on May 13, 2009 9:28 AM EDT up reply actions

It wasn'treally that much money

Nieman is on the books for $1.3M

And i use your logic that an average SP is better than a great reliever

by Raymondo on May 13, 2009 9:31 AM EDT up reply actions

Could haved saved $7 millin

by getting rid of Bradford, and not signing Wheeler to a three year deal

by Raymondo on May 13, 2009 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions

Billy Beane thought Jeremy Bonderman was going to suck.

GM’s make mistakes, though there’s a long way till the end of the season to prove the FO wrong on Edwin. Hindsight is wonderful, but at the time it was a good trade.

by Suttree on May 13, 2009 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions

changing tunes?

I’d rather talk about

the 32 combined HRs hit by Joyce

Jackson is gone-i wish him well

by Raymondo on Feb 15, 2009 4:19 PM EST reply reply actions actions 0 recs

by Ramondo is smrt! on May 13, 2009 5:28 PM EDT up reply actions

Sonny Supporters

Where have you all gone? You used to be so staunch in your support of this clown vs. E-Jax. Well your Sabermetics line of thinking prevailed and now we’re left with trash.

PS – I hate you former sonny lovers.

by DRays07 on May 13, 2009 2:08 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs

I hate you

Let’s see where each guy ends up at the end of the year. Did you already forget that Sonny’s last start he left with 0’s across the board until a reliever let 2 inherited come in? Sonny is good, you are not, go back to huffing paint in your garage.

Do what you love to do and give it your very best. Whether it's business or baseball, or the theater, or any field. If you don't love what you're doing and you can't give it your best, get out of it. Life is too short. You'll be an old man before you know it.

-Al Lopez

by Sandy Kazmir on May 13, 2009 8:52 AM EDT up reply actions

Your right they should wait until the end of the year, but

I am sure if the roles were reversed and Ejax was pitching like Sonny and vice versa you wouldn’t be saying lets wait and reserve judgement till the end of the year. You would be saying that Ejax sucks and Sonny is much better

plus if Sonny doesn’t turn it around somewhat soon I don’t know if he will see the end of the year.

by Sveet on May 13, 2009 9:27 AM EDT up reply actions

Simple question at this point

Which team would be more likely to repeat the trade today?

by Raymondo on May 13, 2009 9:42 AM EDT up reply actions

I still think we make the trade today

by Sveet on May 13, 2009 9:46 AM EDT up reply actions

and I personally still like the trade today

by Sveet on May 13, 2009 9:48 AM EDT up reply actions

His performance this year has nothing to do with last year's performance.

He didn’t get by on smoke-and-mirros last year. He mixed up his pitches well, and displayed excellent command and control.

That Sonnanstine has yet to show up this season. The second Adam Jones at-bat really frustrated the fuck out of me. He wasn’t locating his pitches, and down 3-1 decided to throw a fastball right over the plate. I’m not sure whether Navarro called it or Sonny called it, but that’s an idiotic decision, even before the 3-run dinger. 3-1 against their most dangerous hitter, who just went yard against you his last time up? Give him something low. Make him chase it, or just walk him.

That was probably worse than Shields deciding to go inside on Jason Bay, who can’t hit a breaking pitch to save his life.

by Suttree on May 13, 2009 8:53 AM EDT up reply actions

Well your Sabermetics line of thinking prevailed

You mad

www.draysbay.com

by Tommy Rancel on May 13, 2009 9:01 AM EDT up reply actions

I've always liked Edwin over Sonny

However Sonny historically has been better. I just liked Edwins upside and I thought he was going to reach it. If you just look at stats then Sonny was clearly the best one to stay and he was cheaper. No brainer on that front. I thought Ejax would improve. There were more variables involved in forecasting Jackson than for most pitchers. Of course the error would be extreme. Either way you can’t really argue with keeping Sonny. Keeping him was a far easier and defensable move.

Plus Edwin had more trade value.

by matthan on May 13, 2009 9:43 AM EDT up reply actions

He was hitting the fat part of the plate

He kept missing his set up target. I don’t know if necessarily Navarro called the greatest of games, but Sonny loves being that control pitcher. I guess something is obviously wrong. Boy, Baltimore didn’t miss.

Put Tampa Bay back on our road uniforms!!

by joedobr on May 13, 2009 8:35 AM EDT reply actions

Navi rarely calls a good game. He isn't that great with the pitchers. And now that he can't block a pitch in the dirt....

He is totally useless.

by matthan on May 13, 2009 8:40 AM EDT up reply actions

Are you in Navarro's head during the game? Do you sit in on the meetings with Hickey, Navi and the pitchers?

Sure seemed like Navarro was calling a good game last year against the Marlins before Garza shook him off.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t Navarro catch Garza against the Sox the other night? Oh, no, not possible! Garza threw a good game, and we all know Navarro couldn’t possibly have called a good one!

Oh, and there were SO many passed balls last night.

Go suck on a railroad pipe, you mouth breather.

by Suttree on May 13, 2009 8:56 AM EDT up reply actions

Congratulations

Your argument for Navi is that he had one game where he doesn’t allow a ball to scoot past him that nearly all other ML catchers would have stopped. What an accomplishment!!!!

Whats next? Is he going to get a single and then you are going to call him the next Babe Ruth?

by matthan on May 13, 2009 9:38 AM EDT up reply actions

This comment makes me squeal with delight.

Aren’t you the same guy that completely dismissed his 2008 season as a fluke?

Your style of argument is based around using little fragments you’ve seen to create a broader generalization. Certain things stick out in your head, and you come to completely asinine conclusions about it (such as Navarro being a shitty game caller).

All I did was put myself in your shoes, but from an opposite point of view. We have no way of knowing if Navarro is a good game caller or a bad game caller, or if it’s really relevant. At the end of the day, it’s up to the pitcher to make the final call and execute his pitch.

The passed balls were a problem at the beginning of the season, much like at the beginning of last season. They haven’t been a problem recently.

by Suttree on May 13, 2009 9:57 AM EDT up reply actions

By recently you mean a couple days?

A catcher should never have as big of a problem catching the ball as Navarro does.

I’m the guy that pointed out Navarro was one of the worst catchers in the league offensively every single year he was in the league except for 2008. That is what the data shows. A very large proportion of his track record is as one of the worst starting catchers in the league. The slightly above average 2008 was totally unexpected and against his track record. Maybe he changed his process and can duplicate those results? Maybe he got hitting advice from Zobrists guy? Although it surely looks like 2009 he is back to being the Navarro that he always used to be.

Are you one of the guys that only trusts the data when it supports conclusions that you want it to make?

by matthan on May 13, 2009 10:03 AM EDT up reply actions

Ooooooooooh, right, you're the guy who doesn't like to account for context when using stats

I’m not having the Navarro-offensive argument again.

by Suttree on May 13, 2009 10:20 AM EDT up reply actions

Context? Are you kidding me?

What the hell is the point of having any stats if all we do is add context and excuses when a player puts up stats?

So elt me get this straight. When Navarro sucked it was because he was a young player, because his wife was sick, because he was distracted, he was out of shape blah blah blah. Yet when he is slightly above average that is his true talent level?

Christ you can make that excuse for every freaking player.

But hey lets add some context with Kaz. You know with the small attendance and all.

by matthan on May 13, 2009 11:32 AM EDT up reply actions

Reference post above.

Not having the Navarro-offensive argument again, particularly when you can’t seem to wrap your head around the fact that 600 good ABs tend to mean a little more than 200 shitty ones when determining a player’s true value.

by Suttree on May 13, 2009 12:36 PM EDT up reply actions

These are ML hitters

They don’t miss during batting practice. I love Sonny and think he is a legit major league starter. But when he is off he gets crushed.

by matthan on May 13, 2009 8:40 AM EDT up reply actions

That's what happens

when you don’t throw hard and you’re a bit off on control. You start serving up mid 80’s pitches with no bite and on the fat part of the plate, you won’t be successful at any level.

by Buc Wild on May 13, 2009 9:01 AM EDT up reply actions

I think this is why Maddon has a quick hook with Sonny

When he starts slowing a slippage in command he yanks him often south of 90 pitches even wehn he has pitched will to that point. I don’t recall his command ever being as off as last night. I think Joe was just hoping he could pull it together to not require 6 or 7 innings of bullpen usage, especially knowing Neimann goes tonight. Tough turn of events.

by FreeZorilla on May 13, 2009 9:04 AM EDT up reply actions