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Joe Madden mission hurting the Rays

note to Joe Madden - the Rays don't exist to validate your personal missions - they exist for the players, organization, fans, community and MLB.  That being said - the Rays went to the World Series last year with Iwamora leading off and Upton hitting 3rd.  This year, you have a .350 hitter (Bartlett) hitting 7th or 8th, Iwamora hitting 7th or 8th and Upton (hitting.160) leading off and the Rays are losing!  As a fan of the Rays, I expect you to manage the Rays with the mission of winning and making the playoffs.  If you want to develop Upton into a leadoff hitter , then you should have developed him that way in the minors because this experiment is hurting the team and frustrating the fans.  Furthermore, I don't think that just because someone is fast, they should be a leadoff hitter.  Upton obviously has some issues since his shoulder surgery and should be helped and coached , but not at the expense of the team having to sacrifice the season. 

This post was written by a member of the DRaysBay community and does not necessarily express the views or opinions of DRaysBay staff.

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ughhhhhhhh

Brad Ziegler had a scoreless inning streak. Brad Ziegler had not met BJ Upton.

by P Brady on May 13, 2009 12:59 PM EDT reply actions  

Do you understand what "On-Base Percentage" is?

If not, look up B.J.’s from the last few years, relative to the league average, then come back and spout how Upton is being tried at leadoff because of his speed.

Also, read this:
http://www.draysbay.com/2009/1/26/736782/the-draysbay-stats-guide

Thanks much.

by R.J. Anderson on May 13, 2009 1:03 PM EDT reply actions  

What is the experiment?

Upton has been ridiculously good at getting on base during his career, that’s not a guess, that’s fact. I’m sure Maddon didn’t expect his BABIP to be this low at this point in the season. He’s still walking at a pretty decent clip, it’s just a matter of Upton finally getting his strength back.

Seriously, read that link.

by R.J. Anderson on May 13, 2009 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

BJ is destroying my fantasy team

Put it this way. I have Chris freaking Davis in instead of him. And this league counts strikeouts in a big way. And Chris freaking Davis is going to destroy the strikeout record.

by matthan on May 13, 2009 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

Chris freaking Davis who has 9 home runs? He's been pretty good for me.

But yes, BJ definately this years biggest fantasy disappointment

Until Next Time,
The Sports Chief

by Top Gun Numba 1 on May 13, 2009 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

This league I'm in is points based

-1 for every K. A HR is just 4 points. Well technically a run and RBI are also 1 point each. But considering how much he strikes out that home runs and K’s practically cancel each other out.

by matthan on May 13, 2009 11:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

It's Iwamura

it would help if you spelled his name right.

Swav or Die.

by SRQman on May 13, 2009 1:05 PM EDT reply actions  

jakubasckosos

Do what you love to do and give it your very best. Whether it's business or baseball, or the theater, or any field. If you don't love what you're doing and you can't give it your best, get out of it. Life is too short. You'll be an old man before you know it.

-Al Lopez

by Sandy Kazmir on May 13, 2009 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

as much as upton has all the skills that make a good leadoff hitter...

the fact is, he’s not producing. He will still end up the Rays lead-off hitter by the end of the season, but right now, he needs to drop down a little bit in the lineup and take the pressure off of him. Whether it’s no ST, or still recovering, whatever, he is not HITTING. He has a great eye at the plate, evidenced by his OBP and walks, but he still is not HITTING.

A temporary drop in the order can be good for all parties.

by raysfaninminnesota on May 13, 2009 3:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

That wasn't the complaint.

It was “Just because Upton is fast doesn’t mean he’s a leadoff hitter.”

by R.J. Anderson on May 13, 2009 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

Rec'd so hard

Until Next Time,
The Sports Chief

by Top Gun Numba 1 on May 13, 2009 1:25 PM EDT reply actions  

It's got 5 now

"Where we all wait in earnest with pudding in hand for the Upton comet to sail through the roofed skies, so that we may meet Him."

by kericr on May 13, 2009 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

If you are going to bitch about the manager, at least spell his damn name right.

"If a woman has to choose between catching a fly ball and saving an infant's life, she will choose to save the infant's life without even considering if there are men on base."
~Dave Barry

by PriceMultiCyYoungs on May 13, 2009 1:39 PM EDT reply actions  

Can't: been playing too many

Madden NFL’s?

/Wow

"Yeah, I am not the old annoying guy next door. Heck, I don't even know who i am"

by 4QB on May 13, 2009 5:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

Whoa, P brady, calm down!

Obviously you don’t realize being a leadoff hitter requires a completely different style of at bats in the minors than any other type of batter!

by Suttree on May 13, 2009 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

I wish Soccer Mom would!

Then we wouldn’t have this problem! Jeepers, Suttree, don’t you know anything about Our National Past-times?

by PlayOnWords on May 13, 2009 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

RJ Said that LL copes with losing better then DRaysBay does

I’ll tell you what, if this is what happens when the Rays lose, I’ll still be here all year long.

"Where we all wait in earnest with pudding in hand for the Upton comet to sail through the roofed skies, so that we may meet Him."

by kericr on May 13, 2009 2:14 PM EDT reply actions  

I just love that the worst fan posts are rewarded.

DRays Bay destroys the boundaries of irony and sarcasm.

by Suttree on May 13, 2009 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't see it as a reward, it's akin to taking our worst criminals, decapitating them, and placing their heads on a pike outside of a city wall.

There are rare exceptions, but this has been the process as of late.

"Where we all wait in earnest with pudding in hand for the Upton comet to sail through the roofed skies, so that we may meet Him."

by kericr on May 13, 2009 5:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

LL had a poor FO and a bunch of players to display hatred towards.

Nobody on our team, minus Percival, is in that boat. And anybody who hates on the FO is silly and or stupid.

by R.J. Anderson on May 13, 2009 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

Go beyond that.

By Aki not playing last night, that cost the Rays the game.

I could’ve played that grounder in the 2nd that Zobrist let through.

Madden is maddening with his too hands on brand of lineup manipulation.

Let the damn guys play! It’s only May!

by Valrico Gold on May 13, 2009 2:16 PM EDT reply actions  

No one cares

That Zoby has made gaffes in consecutive games that cost us runs (or if not cost, then must accept the bulk of blame). He hits homers, bro.

by PlayOnWords on May 13, 2009 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ah, yes! Aki sitting cost us the game because of a grounder Zobrist missed!

That three run homer by Adam Jones thanks to a juicy fastball right down the middle clearly had no effect on the outcome of the sporting event!

by Suttree on May 13, 2009 2:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

Adam Jones had nothing to do with the outcome of the game last night.

It was all Aki “Iwamora” sitting on the bench.

Swav or Die.

by SRQman on May 13, 2009 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

That was after that gaff

The inning would’ve taken different emotional look and feel had there been an out made.

Sonny got deeper into his funk by not making that play.

by Valrico Gold on May 13, 2009 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

Sonny must need antidepressants when Kapler plays

Brad Ziegler had a scoreless inning streak. Brad Ziegler had not met BJ Upton.

by P Brady on May 13, 2009 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

Sonny wasn't locating his pitches anyway.

It was a shitty play by Zobrist, but one grounder doesn’t cause you to give up 7 runs in less than 3 full innings.

by Suttree on May 13, 2009 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

I have to agree with both of you

Zobrist missing the grounder was huge. It did change the outcome of the game. The entire game would have been different from that point forward. Perhaps Jones goes yard or maybe he doesnt. We will never know. Perhaps Sonnanstine would have gotten out of the inning or perhaps he would have gotten shelled as he was. Who knows. But Zobrist screwing that play up did change the outcome of the inning.

Personally I think if Zobrist makes that play we win the game. The entire game is fundamentally changed. However that didn’t happen so we have to analyze what did happen…which was Sonny sucking the nuts.

by matthan on May 13, 2009 11:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

With a comment like that, you may watch, but obviously know very little about baseball.

by Valrico Gold on May 13, 2009 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

You're retarded.

Brad Ziegler had a scoreless inning streak. Brad Ziegler had not met BJ Upton.

by P Brady on May 13, 2009 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah,

Kazmir
Trading Kazmir is not an option at this point.
I was for trading him in the off season instead of Jackson, and we see how that’s turning out.
But you don’t trade a guy when he’s down, as his value is diminished.

If he begins to get it going, then I’d send him off ASAP.

by Valrico Gold on May 12, 2009 2:22 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Brad Ziegler had a scoreless inning streak. Brad Ziegler had not met BJ Upton.

by P Brady on May 13, 2009 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

Who cares about mindless comments.

Take this to a rational level.

You disagree with my assessment of Kazmir?

by Valrico Gold on May 13, 2009 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

You wanted to keep Edwin over Kazmir.

That’s reason enough to declare you irrational.

by R.J. Anderson on May 13, 2009 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

Put it another way.

The Rays could’ve have gotten much, much more for Kazmir before ’09 than Joyce (minor leagues) for Jackson.

Much more.

They could’ve filled Kaz’s spot.

And Jackson is a work in progress who apparently has met a pitching coach who’s gotten into his head.

by Valrico Gold on May 13, 2009 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

Enough With The Wise Cracks

Even if I did, I wouldn’t have gone for that for two reasons.

Holliday has too much to prove outside of Coors.

They wouldn’t been able to afford him through free agency, which I believe is next year.

by Valrico Gold on May 13, 2009 2:51 PM EDT reply actions  

WEBSITE WEDNESDAY IN FULL EFFECT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111!!

Do what you love to do and give it your very best. Whether it's business or baseball, or the theater, or any field. If you don't love what you're doing and you can't give it your best, get out of it. Life is too short. You'll be an old man before you know it.

-Al Lopez

by Sandy Kazmir on May 13, 2009 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

Deer...FSN....

I watch a lot of baseball, but do not understand most of it. Could you explain why Kazmir hasn’t been traded?

Love,
Valrico Gold

P.S. Was Kevin Kennedy ever a catcher?

by ReasonableDoubt on May 13, 2009 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

Hell fuck yeah

Until Next Time,
The Sports Chief

by Top Gun Numba 1 on May 13, 2009 4:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

Wow.

Where’s Jeff Foxworthy? If you cite Duemig has a voice of reason, you might have been conceived with weak sperm!

by Suttree on May 13, 2009 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yes, because Sabermetrics killed the 150 pitch outing.

You must be Wile E. Coyote, super genius. I suggest ESPN’s message boards, they’re much closer to your intellectual level.

"Where we all wait in earnest with pudding in hand for the Upton comet to sail through the roofed skies, so that we may meet Him."

by kericr on May 13, 2009 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

In all fairness

Some of Maddon’s moves have been puzzling as of late. Sitting Pena in a big divisional game with an off day coming makes no sense. I don’t care what his stats are against Beckett. He can sit Pena, but he can’t move Upton lower in the order?

I know he needed to get innings out of Sonny last night to save the pen, but he should have had someone ready to put into the game if Sonny gave up a hit in the 3rd. Sonny clearly didn’t have location working for him last night, evidenced by the way he was getting shelled. Jones should have had his 2nd hr off of Sonny two pitches sooner, with the golf ball Sonny put belt-high down the plate. And yet, Niemann gets pulled after 4 2/3 innings even though he had not given up any runs. Yes he was flirting with disaster, but it seemed as if Maddon pulled the trigger a bit soon. At the very least, it doesn’t make sense that he can pull Niemann early but wait until the last possible moment to pull Sonny.

Regardless, Maddon is not the reason why we are under .500. There are plenty of reasons for that.

by raysfaninminnesota on May 13, 2009 3:33 PM EDT reply actions  

very true

but the only difference we’re talking about is 2 batters. He still had to replace him later. He should have at least had someone warmed up just in case. It was obvious Sonny was doing everything he could not to be throwing BP, but it wasn’t working.

by raysfaninminnesota on May 13, 2009 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

Dude this thread is awesome. I want to Rec it twice.

"Where we all wait in earnest with pudding in hand for the Upton comet to sail through the roofed skies, so that we may meet Him."

by kericr on May 13, 2009 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

call ME tater nuts

Call me, tater nuts
call me tater? NUTS
call me tater nuts (said with irish accent to inflect that you should call his tater nuts on the telephone)

Until Next Time,
The Sports Chief

by Top Gun Numba 1 on May 13, 2009 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

Just throwing it out there

It might not be the worst idea to flip Bartlett and Upton for a little while while Bartlett has a hot bat and Upton is on a cold streak. It’s possible that Upton is putting undue pressure on himself leading off. Also, his timing mechanism looks completely off. I assume the hitting coach is working on that with him, but his leg kick has a lot less drive behind it than it has in the past. Once Upton starts hitting, flip them back.

Vogt early, Vogt often.

by Brickhaus on May 13, 2009 4:38 PM EDT reply actions  

I personally wouldn't mind it either

but I’m not adamant at getting Upton out of the leadoff spot either.

But on here they will tell you that you never know when a cold or hot streak is going to end/start so it would be dumb.

I think that statement is being used out of context in this situation. It’s one thing to be changing the lineup weekly depending on how the guy hit the previous week. It’s a totally different thing when a guy is in an extended 6 week slump and is showing little to no signs of pulling out of it.

by Sveet on May 13, 2009 4:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

alright guy...

How is the failure of BJ Upton contributing to the failure of the Rays? Has Evan Longoria not had the opportunity to knock in runs because BJ Upton is too busy getting out? Has Carlos Pena struggled? None of that has happened.

Meanwhile, we have a back end of out batting order protected by guys who can get on base too. Throughout the entire lineup, the points where failure has been expected are with Upton and Navarro. Surrounding those guys, however, has been an incredibly potent lineup. Would you suggest that Joe Maddon put them on an island?

Tell me, is it a good thing or a bad thing to have CC on with nobody in front of him? Tell me, how good is Bartlett at leading off? Tell me, how much does CC like to lead off?

If there is one thing that I cannot stand it is that baseball fans with a rudimentary knowledge of the game, second guess someone who is paid 10x their salary to manage a major league baseball team. Maddon recognizes that within a lineup, there is an inherent value of trust. Maddon recognizes that in baseball, there is an ebb and flow of statistical achievement. CC is getting on once and out twice in cycles of HIT, OUT, OUT. In a larger context, BJ will not continue to get on once in 6 AB’s. That number will increase. In the meantime, when he is getting on base, about 3/10 times, he is giving the guys behind him a steady diet of fastballs.

Is that a problem too?

by tbclays on May 18, 2009 12:47 PM EDT reply actions  

Hey, this thread is dead. Join the rest of us

Over here for more amazing insight.

Seriously, don’t waste your time on it, he’s probably not coming back.

"Where we all wait in earnest with pudding in hand for the Upton comet to sail through the roofed skies, so that we may meet Him."

by kericr on May 18, 2009 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

Upton seems to be coming out of his slump and the Rays are winning – the point being that the leadoff guy getting on base is a big factor in winning games. My earlier point was that if a player is struggling at the leadoff spot, wouldn’t it make sense to drop him down in the lineup until he starts hitting. Instead, I thought Maddon (ok, I spelled it right) was sticking with Upton with the hope that Upton would eventually start hitting and prove Maddon right and it’s not about Maddon – it’s about winning. Upton is doing well against Cleveland and Oakland and I hope it continues against the better teams – but if he does struggle again, do you think Upton wants the team to lose because Maddon “believes” in him?

by fourcloses on May 18, 2009 9:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

yes

Until Next Time,
The Sports Chief

by Top Gun Numba 1 on May 18, 2009 10:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

Upton's been doing it against Boston, Baltimore, and Cleveland.

And it wasn’t “hope” it’s called regression towards the mean. It’s not about faith, it’s about a statistical principle. Upton was never going to continue to hit that bad. His overall numbers won’t match the projections, but I’m pretty sure he’s going to continue hitting like his career from this point on than the rusty Upton we saw the first few weeks.

by R.J. Anderson on May 18, 2009 11:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

You're assuming

that these “statistics” you refer to actually mean something.

/sarcasm

by Buc Wild on May 19, 2009 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well, I stand corrected.

Do more fanposts. We need more stupid opinions to clown on.

"Where we all wait in earnest with pudding in hand for the Upton comet to sail through the roofed skies, so that we may meet Him."

by kericr on May 18, 2009 11:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

Touche..

And BTW: Look at BJ Uptons OBP and then see why this little experiment might pay off.

by JackofAllTrades on May 22, 2009 5:38 PM EDT reply actions  

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