Gross Fact

by R.J. Anderson on May 19, 2009 1:46 PM EDT

74 plate appearances

70 versus right-handed pitching.

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what's gross about that is that his numbers are right in line with his career splits...

except he has NO power this year.

by davidsmarch on May 19, 2009 1:48 PM EDT reply actions

His contact and walk rates are up.

But whatever, at least you threw a slider.

by R.J. Anderson on May 19, 2009 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions

thanks,

i’m not complaining about his avg or obp, i’m complaining about his slg%…

by davidsmarch on May 19, 2009 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions

See below.

by R.J. Anderson on May 19, 2009 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions

29% LD this year, up from 17% last year.

He’s been hitting the ball well, but he needs to aim better away from gloves.

by FreeZorilla on May 19, 2009 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions

Can I get an Amen

by BJ the Bossman on May 19, 2009 2:16 PM EDT reply actions

No.

by Suttree on May 19, 2009 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions

JJ Madden is finally doing something well

I’m not a fan of Gross in general. I just don’t like players that are this limited. However since he is on the team they might as well use him properly. No need to give the other team an automatic out since we already have 1 in the lineup (2 for most of the year).

by matthan on May 19, 2009 2:25 PM EDT reply actions

Joe Jack

Do what you love to do and give it your very best. Whether it's business or baseball, or the theater, or any field. If you don't love what you're doing and you can't give it your best, get out of it. Life is too short. You'll be an old man before you know it.

-Al Lopez

by Sandy Kazmir on May 19, 2009 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions

Gross's line against lefties this year is

.333/.500/.667 (1.167 OPS). Of course that represents 4 plate appearances in which he got 1 hit (a double and 2 RBIs), 1BB and 1K.

He is of course usually helpless against lefties, although whenever I watch him it seems he works the count pretty well against them. In any case, I don’t think he is particularly limited, or at least not more than any platoon/bench player is. On the contrary, as a platoon/bench player he is valuable at bat against righties and provides good defense as well as decent pop at the plate.

Of course, should Joyce prove better at hitting lefties and also maintain his power and productivity against righties so that he can play every day, I would rather have him and would willingly see Gross dealt away. But barring the Rays acquiring a regular right fielder, Gross is useful, and even should we acquire one Gross might remain valuable as a backup. I don’t think it entirely valid to single him out as limited; most non-stars are and not necessarily less so than is Gross.

by bobr on May 19, 2009 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions

any idea on which lefties he has faced?

by walkoffwalk on May 19, 2009 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions

I think I recall the hit was off Javier Lopez in a rout

by FreeZorilla on May 19, 2009 4:35 PM EDT up reply actions

Gross Fact: You have 3 nipples

Until Next Time,
The Sports Chief

by Top Gun Numba 1 on May 19, 2009 2:42 PM EDT reply actions

This is OT, but how would you guys feel about shipping Aki over to the Brewers?

-Al Lopez

by Sandy Kazmir on May 19, 2009 2:49 PM EDT reply actions

For Gamel? FAIR DEAL.

If they gave us someone of decent value, say Angel Salome, it’d be a solid deal. I’m gonna assume the Brewers stand pat, though.

by Suttree on May 19, 2009 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions

It is

somewhat analogous to the Magic when Jameer went out. Weeks is playing that quiet, solid contributor player that can carry them at times. When Jameer went down the Magic tried to patch it with Tyronn Lue. After realizing that him and Old Man Johnson couldn’t hold the fort down they had to go out and make another move. They should have gotten a guy like Rafer off the bat instead of waiting to have their fears confirmed. If the Brewers were serious about contending they need to do the same. Aki gives them a guy that can bat leadoff, but has no ego when he’s in the 9 hole. He gives them a lefty which is sorely needed and his defense, though nowhere near Weeks so far this year, is above-average.

-Al Lopez

by Sandy Kazmir on May 19, 2009 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions

Melvin’s not looking to make a trade.

"I didn't realize his velocity was that high," said Macha, noting that radar readings aren't flashed during exhibition games.

by battlekow on May 19, 2009 7:26 PM EDT up reply actions

Only if its for Seth McClung

I will accept nothing less. I doubt the Rays would want to trade Aki because we have nothing behind him

by raysrule44 on May 19, 2009 2:59 PM EDT reply actions

Aybar, Brignac, Zobrist,

to name 3.

-Al Lopez

by Sandy Kazmir on May 19, 2009 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions

HELLIOT

I could be wrong though

by staplemaniac on May 19, 2009 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions

I heard him and PLK are re-enacting that play at the plate

Of course PLK is playing the part of Cervelli

-Al Lopez

by Sandy Kazmir on May 19, 2009 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions

Rays arent going to want to toy with the team now that were heating up

I think the Rays view him as an important piece of the puzzle, even though his defense is eh and I wouldnt mind seeing him traded. I would bet that they will not just ship him off

by raysrule44 on May 19, 2009 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions

If they can improve the team, they will.

It doesn’t matter if they lose 5 of 7 or win 5 of 7, Friedman’s not going to let that stand in the way of getting better.

by R.J. Anderson on May 19, 2009 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions

Kaz and Aki for Mat Gamel and Chris Cody

would certainly pique my interest

-Al Lopez

by Sandy Kazmir on May 19, 2009 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions

Out of all the positions we could trade, 2B is probably the most well-covered.

by Suttree on May 19, 2009 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions

Fun fact: Longoria is the best positional player in the AL so far this year.

Weeeee.

by R.J. Anderson on May 19, 2009 3:23 PM EDT reply actions

Amazing that Bartlett has been a better player then

the like of

Albert Pujols
Miguel Carbrera
Hanley Ramirez
Ryan Braun
David Wright

and pretty much everyone else so far this year

It is amazing how good he has been

by Sveet on May 19, 2009 4:23 PM EDT up reply actions

and just cause

Edwin Jackson has been the 13th most valuable pitcher so far this year.

The top Ray? Matt Garza at 29th

by Sveet on May 19, 2009 4:27 PM EDT up reply actions

I don't forsee that lasting.

by Suttree on May 19, 2009 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions

maybe it will, maybe it won't

but there is no denying he has been pretty good so far.

by Sveet on May 19, 2009 4:48 PM EDT up reply actions

and there is no denying it's a worthless subject to bring up

We would trade him every single time, unless there was magic ball that predicted Kaz would get hurt and Edwin would be an ace.

by Suttree on May 19, 2009 4:55 PM EDT up reply actions

I agree with the trade and would do it again

I like Joyce a lot

I was just always a fan of Edwins so I like to see him doing well. Many people on this board weren’t fans and thought he would fail so it’s nice to see him prove them wrong….at least so far

by Sveet on May 19, 2009 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions

There is no magic ball...

but in situations where a pitcher is young possibilities for improvement need to be correctly projected. All anyone wanted to talk about was the fact that Edwin’s FIP and tRA were not as good as Sonny and decidedly ignored the fact that he had much better stuff. Furthermore, there were some indications that he had potential to develop into a better pitcher. Particularly his stretch/windup splits showed he pitched better from the stretch perhaps indicating that some improvement in mechanics could pay dividends.

If all he had to do was learn a new slider (as some have suggested this is a reason behind his improvement this year) to become a #2/3 level starter than the Rays made a poor projection. They should be blamed for that and not let off the hook because the stats backed up their reasoning. Stats should play a complementary role with scouting-based projections on young players even if they have already been in the majors for a couple years. Ignoring one in favor of the other is detrimental and does not mean the “process” behind the decision was correct.

Everyone will tell you that Sonny couldn’t have brought back the trade value that Edwin did. Of course, they have no proof for this and in a league where GMs are becoming increasingly more aware of sabermetrics, I would not have been surprised to see Sonny bring back a comparable player to Joyce in return. Further, the difference between Edwin’s salary and Sonny’s is not particularly large (~1.8mil) and could have been somewhat offset by playing Ruggiano instead of signing Kapler. Or it could have been completely offset by using a cheaper in-house option at DH (i.e. Aybar or Zobrist or a platoon).

And don’t think that I am just saying this because Edwin is doing well now. I was one of the leaders in the promotion of Jackson all last year. It remains to be seen whether Jackson will continue this streak, but if he does it is more than fair to question the wisdom behind trading him. Personally, I didn’t want to see any of the pitchers traded outside of Hammell.

by RaysTheRoof on May 19, 2009 6:09 PM EDT up reply actions

THE TRADE HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH SONNY.

Ok. So, let’s say we keep Edwin. Don’t sign Burrell. Don’t sign Kapler. Ruggiano is the 4th outfielder because Perez is hurt in spring.

What happens if Aybar or Zobrist gets hurt? What happens when Ruggiano or another OF gets hurt? Who comes up then?

Hm. Aybar or Zobrist would mean Brignac or Elliot Johnson… down grade. Ruggiano goes down, no Joyce to bring up from the minors… UH OH.

Suddenly we’re in deep shit.

You can’t look at team in terms of just the 25 man.

by Suttree on May 19, 2009 6:12 PM EDT up reply actions

And as for Edwin, he'd been in the majors for 6 years with no visible signs of improvement.

Maybe the new slider is for real, but the chances of Edwin putting it together all of suddenly were considerably lower than 50%.

by Suttree on May 19, 2009 6:13 PM EDT up reply actions

The idea that the trade had nothing to do with Sonny is a myth.

The trade had everything to do with all of the other starting pitchers. They were evaluated in context of their future projection and the value believed to be brought back. Then it was decided witch pitcher(s) should be dealt. To say one has nothing to do with the other is just ignoring the truth.

Second, your argument about roster construction is difficult to comment on since I have no idea what another pitcher (Sonny, Kazmir) would have specifically brought back. But if Sonny could have brought something like Joyce back in return your worries about depth are generally unfounded.

I want to repeat that I am not saying that trading Jackson was the wrong decision or that I wouldn’t have made the same decision if I were running the team. All I am saying is that IF Jackson continues to pitch at a high level then it is silly to give the Rays FO a “pass” on this move while praising their other trades that were more beneficial. Nor I am saying that the FO hasn’t done a good job. Even if this trade turns out to be a disaster (which I don’t think will be the case) the FO has made more good trades than bad trades. I’m just sick of them getting a “pass” on questionable moves (i.e. Percy) because they have made so many quality moves.

by RaysTheRoof on May 19, 2009 6:26 PM EDT up reply actions

It isn't myth at all.

Edwin had way more trade value than Sonny. It’s the simple. 14 wins, good stuff, young guy… of course teams are gonna fall in love with that.

The key is Sonny would have never brought in someone like Joyce. No one would have traded the next Jayson Werth for a guy who, despite being our second best starter last year, is a back end of the rotation pitcher.

Here’s the thing about trades: you have to evaluate the process. That’s all that matters. Even if you end up on the piss poor side of the trade due to a player learning a new pitch or a guy getting hurt, you have to evaluate the trade based on what we knew at the time. That’s involving everything: scouting, performance, health, and make-up.

Even if Edwin maintains this ability, it’s not a bad trade. We’re in a better position to win the division without him and we have a pitcher who will likely equal his performance in David Price. Even if we knew Edwin would have been this good, trading him still would have been a good option. There’s no way Kaz pulls a Joyce considering we couldn’t get Halladay for Kaz and Niemann (or was it Sonny?) Even the Tigers, who are more scouting oriented than sabrmetric oriented, would have looked at Kaz and said,“We’ll pass on his arm.”

This isn’t Bavasi trading four pitchers and Adam Jones for Erik Bedard. That was a stupid trade from the get-go and the Mariners have suffered poetic justice because of it.

by Suttree on May 19, 2009 6:32 PM EDT up reply actions

I guess I just don't believe

that Sonny or Kaz couldn’t have brought back something better than or equal to Joyce. Also, I think your comparisons of Joyce to Jayson Werth are overly optimistic.

Everyone likes to characterize GMs as retards who just like guys who throw the ball fast. However, more and more FOs are becoming more stat oriented. I certainly believe we could have gotten something in the ballpark of Joyce for Kaz or Sonny. I guess we will never know though and it would be difficult for me prove this or you to prove otherwise.

As for evaluating the process, I think that if the Rays missed on the “scouting” side of things then the process wad indeed flawed. If all you have to do is teach a guy a new slider then this is something coaches/scouts must pick up on. There were signs that Jackson had the potential to improve.

by RaysTheRoof on May 19, 2009 6:42 PM EDT up reply actions